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In today's HR Leaders Podcast episode, we are excited to host an amazing duo from Joveo. Kshitij Jain, Founder & CEO and Yazad Dalal, Chief Growth Officer.

They offer deep insights into revolutionizing recruitment strategies through advanced AI applications and robust marketing techniques, discussing the integration of technology in streamlining HR processes.

🎓 In this episode, KJ and Yazad discuss:

1. Effective strategies to transform your career page into a highly attractive landing spot for prospective talent.

2. How to connect various recruitment marketing channels directly to hiring results and metrics.

3. Top strategies to reduce candidate drop-off and improve the recruitment funnel efficiency.

4. How AI is eliminating recruitment inefficiencies and transforming strategic approaches.

5. How AI can optimize job advertising to reach the ideal candidates more effectively.

Create Digital Experiences With AI-Enabled Recruiting Automation

For organizations undergoing HR transformations, legacy recruiting automation does not support the marketing-based practices of modern talent acquisition or facilitate agility in a context where needs change rapidly. As such, many HR leaders are looking to implement recruiting automation that goes beyond cost reduction and supports agility and innovation.

Download this e-book to learn more about:

● How automation can enhance digital recruiting service delivery, improving hiring outcomes.

● The role of configurable workflows in ensuring adaptability and compliance.

● How portal apps drive efficiency by providing a user experience tailored to the needs of each stakeholder.

● The critical capabilities a modern career site should support to maximize conversion, including content management automation.

● How AI can boost recruiting automation through predictions.

● Key considerations to keep in mind when selecting a recruiting system vendor.

Yazad Dalal 0:00

highperformance recruitment marketing is helping talent acquisition leaders and recruiters think like consumer marketers act like consumer marketers. We talk all the time and I'm sure with so many of your guests that HR deserves a seat at the table and they're really business leaders. Historically, HR and talent acquisition in particular are cost centers as a steward of a cost budget. The focus has to sometimes be on saving every penny consumer marketers are ruthless about this and we're trying to bring that same mentality of high performance to recruitment marketing, there is no such thing as a poor quality candidate. It's just about relevance. And so when we can be hyper relevant to the right candidate, the recruiter is delighted. Probably more importantly the candidate is delighted.

Chris Rainey 0:48

Hi, everyone, welcome back to the HR leaders podcast. On today's episode, I'm joined by KJ, who's the founder and CEO Joveo and Yazad Dalal who's the chief growth officer at Joe vo during the episode KJ as I share how to turn your career site into a talent magnet, how to link recruitment marketing channels to hiring metrics, their top strategies to minimize candidate drop off. And lastly, how AI is eliminating inefficiencies and revolutionising recruitment strategies. As always, before we jump into the video, make sure you hit the subscribe button, turn on notification bell and follow on your favorite podcast platform. But that being said, let's jump in. kJ guys, welcome to the show. How are you both? Fantastic. It's been a while since about two people on the sofa now I feel a bit intimidated.

Yazad Dalal 1:36

Will Be gentle. It'd

Chris Rainey 1:37

be gentle. Yeah. You know, start a few years I'd say in terms of your background, people know you from the show in a couple of different capacities for our summits through the events through the podcast. Tavon. Tell everyone little bit more about this new journey you're on and also why you decided to join jovia start there.

Yazad Dalal 1:54

Sure I'm super excited. First of all, I'm super excited to be here. Because today's my birthday, Chris, always Hey,

Chris Rainey 1:59

you wait until we see hit record. I wanted it to be alive. Hey, can everything. Happy birthday.

Yazad Dalal 2:05

Thank you. So but this is a fun way to spend my birthday. I'm excited also to be here with KJ, because KJ is the founder of Joe VO and Joe vos, my new employer, I have a new job. And I'm super excited about it. It's I was looking last year you and I've talked about this for a company that's at the intersection of HR technology, and AI because obviously AI is the thing that's on everyone's you know, top of mind for everyone. And that's where I want to play. And what I found in Joe VO and what KJ and the team have built is exactly that intersection. So I'm super excited about that. The journey for me is also exciting. Because I'm moving back a little bit to my roots, I grew up in talent acquisition services. And I've spent a few years now in the HR wilderness across all HR functions, services. And so to be back in the recruiting arena is is really a wonderful feeling.

Chris Rainey 2:57

It's an exciting time in at this pace of innovation. And it's almost hard to keep up with. It's super exciting. Okay, just a little bit more about you and your background to where we are now.

Kshitij Jain 3:06

Yeah. So getting to talent acquisition, online recruiting was accidental stuff for me. But one thing led to another worker cross meeting the global talent acquisition leaders across the world, about 30 plus countries working for Monster magic international business came up with an idea started my first startup bootstrapped nice, the festival acquisition When did and felt like I'm in the business of unfinished business. So

Chris Rainey 3:34

I didn't have enough the first time back again, seeking the pain.

Kshitij Jain 3:37

And so I do believe that my why was very clear from the beginning. And so we said, Okay, let's get down to it. That's slowly and steadily get one thing, right, because that's what happened. The first startup, right, we bootstrapped. And we were the ones to be acquired by indeed, overlooking many of the well funded startups. And it's because you do you focus on one thing and get that right to that better than anything else? And that's what I

Chris Rainey 4:03

Yeah, that's so interesting. You say that I was watching a video recently where the podcaster was interviewing billionaires. And when they asked him what their piece of advice was of what's been success, they've, the commonality between every single one of them is they focused on one single thing. And that was it. They didn't go get distracted by different directions. And they just scaled that one thing. And they all said unanimously versus just focus on that one thing and master that part as well. So so interesting. You just said that, you know, when

Kshitij Jain 4:32

you when you really really want that one thing so bad the universe conspires to make it happen. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 4:37

Yeah, you can't you can't. That's that's something that Shane Robinson was really good. I get distracted, and try and run in different directions. Sometimes I see the new shiny object. AI is a new one. Right? I'm definitely hitting that one though, as well, but one of our six pieces of our successes, we know what we do very well. And then we stick to that and just become better and constantly refine and improve just a little bit over and over and over again.

Kshitij Jain 4:59

Interesting, you said that right? You never become the best, but trying to be the best you become the best, but trying to become better every day was in bold, didn't become what was in bolt is, you know all his life, he may have run about five minutes. But look at the 5000 hours plus that he would have trained will be 10,000 hours, right? A lot of hours

Chris Rainey 5:18

are getting better. So yeah, well, our hours are actually visual, because you can see you know, 2000 plus videos and podcasts. So like we put the time in. And as you can see right there online, to be able to see as well tell me a little bit more about the organization, what makes you know, I'm seeing many companies in this space pop up every day, what makes jovia different. It's

Kshitij Jain 5:37

actually in the name. So it's a modern age acronym of a job, everyone. And we believe that this is no applicant in the world, which is not a quality applicant, this is always the right job for everyone. Our job is to figure it out and get it to them. And in the process of doing that view, we care about why right because at the end of the day, the talent acquisition leaders, the companies, the employers are the ones which have jobs. So if we can focus on one why that is every single thing that can be improved in efficiencies in efficiencies in the life of a talent acquisition, value chain supply chain, and try to keep on getting better at it, fixing it, bringing it up to talent acquisition leaders, telling them predictably, what will happen, this will happen, fixing it for them. In the process, what you're doing is you're getting to 4321 Hopefully the one day the world will get there is four clicks three applies to shortlist and one hire. And that's our objective, because that's music to the ears of T leaders to the hiring managers. And that's what we exist for just one thing, find the right job of the person get the job and and help talent acquisition leaders get to the process of finding the right job or right person as fast as possible. Love that.

Yazad Dalal 6:50

I think that's exactly right. It's a large part of as KJ rightly says, Our Why is making life easier for these two very significant important audiences. For a job candidate. Every worker in the world is a job candidate. So we're trying to solve this for everyone. How do we make the experience of finding the right job for them as seamless as possible? Remove all the obstacles. And that's that's the promise of technology. That's the promise of artificial intelligence is how do you remove obstacles, not just the obstacles that we see, but the ones that we don't even know to anticipate. But that's and we see that in our consumer life, whether it's the apple calendar, or your tasks and reminders, the ability to speak to your phone or have it speak back or Alexa. But the anticipation part of it is also to predict based on experience, what hurdles you might have and remove those so that you don't even know that it helps you. And that's for the candidates for the recruiters. All we care about is how do we help them get back to work? A really strong talent acquisition leader or recruiter who's devoted to their craft, their craft is about convincing people, the right people to join their company. Well, we want to do is to make the back end of that so seamless for them, that they don't have to do anything. Yeah. And that's why KJ rightly says 4321. To us, it's a really important formula. How do we make sure that for every recruiter that they know that the candidates were applying for their jobs for every four clicks, meaning every time that a candidate clicks on a job posting that that yields three applications, audits, what you mean by that? Oh, yeah, it's a huge ratio. Every four clicks, three applications. Wow, for every three applications, to shortlisted candidates, which the measure of quality are these the right people? And for every two shortlist of candidates, one hire 4321 It's a very powerful formula. It's very aspirational. That's

Chris Rainey 8:59

to say it's very aspirational,

Kshitij Jain 9:00

you know, currently is like 1000, but say, what is the current metrics on housing 55 And maybe one? Well, I'm not getting 1000 People click to apply to a job. Average ATS conversion rates about five to 7%. So 50 people end up applying imagine a company L'Oreal or Johnson Johnson or some of these companies have spent 10s of millions of dollars every year in attracting candidates. And 95% of that goes to waste the moment a person starts applying to a job.

Chris Rainey 9:33

Where's the most common point of drop off? And it's a great question that process

Yazad Dalal 9:39

those are the obstacles that we're talking about application

Kshitij Jain 9:40

process. What was stage Oh, yeah. Oh, great. Yeah, it's a very first stage

Chris Rainey 9:46

of register just the initial click through rate, login login page. Just allow that's already the friction using people immediately, basically, and

Kshitij Jain 9:56

you don't just make create a login page. You make it painful you We'll put alphanumeric characters you like secret questions, even put CAPTCHA

Chris Rainey 10:04

on such a thing. Yeah.

Kshitij Jain 10:06

So I think the problem starts a lot earlier, right? You're not even showing the right drug to the right people. You're not even putting the right content in, I was talking to a head of TF, a very, very large technology company. And something interesting came out when we did a data analysis for them. It said seven out of 10 people who applied to jobs in a company actually applied to the wrong job. Oh, wow, there was a job they would have got hired for. And that applied to the wrong job. So you don't even show the right person. You expect the job seeker to be that split intelligent ninja to figure out magically imagine a job where you, you know, you write some kind of technical mumbo jumbo on the job, make it simple, right? We're talking to humans, not only

Yazad Dalal 10:45

humans, but I think the human mindset, you know, if we go on Amazon, and I go to buy a pepper mill, I just bought a pepper mill for my brother, I had a vague idea what I want to buy, I'm gonna buy it. It's not an emotional decision making process. But for humans, there's three really emotional decisions that we make in our life. House, which house am I going to buy or rent? Spouse? And if you're lucky, you don't have to do either of those more than once or twice. And job, a job now at an emotional moment. Ooh, this sounds a little like me. Let me click and apply. You are in a fragile state, you're making a potential decision for your future, for your family for your security. And if the next question is create an account, username and password, please. And even if you do that, the next one is proof. You're not a robot. You're like, I'm on the train. I'm about to arrive at work. I, I need to just submit my resume. And then the next thing is, well, are you a veteran? Are you listen, there's 20 screening questions. Do you have a visa? Do you have the right to work? Yeah, I'm trying to make a decision for my life and my family? How do we remove all of those obstacles? That's a huge part of our focus. I

Chris Rainey 11:59

love that. One of the things that you spoke about, which I love to hear hear more on his high performance recruitment market, and that's something I've really come across before. Never heard of that time. What did you guys mean by that?

Yazad Dalal 12:09

So I think for us, I performance recruitment marketing, is helping talent acquisition leaders and recruiters think like consumer marketers act like consumer marketers. You know, we talk all the time, and I'm sure with so many of your guests, that HR deserves a seat at the table, and they're really business leaders. Historically, HR and talent acquisition, in particular, are cost centers. As a steward of a cost budget, the focus has to sometimes be on saving every penny. Consumer marketers are ruthless about this. And we're trying to bring that same mentality of high performance to recruitment marketing, how do we optimize for saving every possible penny, and do it while at the same time, we massively expand the output that a recruiter can deliver behind the scenes, and I'll give you a great example. A traditional recruiter has a wreck, they post a job. And in the old days, 1020 years ago, they posted on a display website monster.com In the old days, indeed.com, or, or others, and they wait for people to apply. And the last five or 10 years, we've moved into what we call programmatic advertising cost per click, or performance marketing. But even that, for the recruiter, whose craft, by the way, is still talking to candidates, we're now asking them, post that job bid, make a bid for the number of applies you want, put an auction based bid out there, because this is the cost per click environment. They are able to do what a human can do in a 2030 minute process. What we are doing for our clients is to say we can do 1000 times more than that in a fraction of the time. For a fraction of the cost. You go back to talking to people, we'll take that job, we'll post it on 100 websites at once. And not just the job you gave us. But we'll take the job title. And based on the location based on the level, our machine learning programs, know all the different versions of that title that are appropriate for

Chris Rainey 14:23

it as I understand some of the cultural nuances and the exactly different countries HR director means something.

Yazad Dalal 14:30

So we optimize the title. We optimize the location, you do language as well, we do language as well. And what we're doing is when we optimize these things, that's the big word. When we are testing different titles, we're testing them at high speed AB AB testing Exactly. Which which title is getting most click the most clicks the most applies on which sites and we don't wait a month or a week. We can tell in 24 hours, allocate

Chris Rainey 14:57

more spend. Over here we're getting More and to do this all automated or to do with it all man, I have had to do all of the everything you're saying I've had to do that all manually. So you own a small business owner, like us how much time that we actually were hiring recently and I was asked, I don't want to say what site I'm doing it for and how I'm doing it because I want to say bad things about anyone. But yeah, it takes a lot of manual time for me and Shane, as founders, let alone a huge organization at scale, without spending millions of pounds. That's the kind of, and again, it takes them away from that core job of having meaningful conversations with candidates, all of the admin that I think

Kshitij Jain 15:33

if you start breaking the problem down, you realize that a lot of large companies don't even know where to put the jobs. They post the usual suspects. Oh, okay. I've got indeed, I've got LinkedIn.

Chris Rainey 15:43

Yeah, you just go to those off the safe ones that you think Correct. That's when when are you the best ones?

Kshitij Jain 15:48

Now there are? If you ask nurses, where do you go to in your day to day life, they're not going to indeed, in Lindon, they're going to the nurse.com, or another community site, or other places where they're actually hanging out and actually spending more time. And so if I were to go and say, hey, we'll post a job a nurse.com, where there are 2 million nurses per month, or we'll post a job in nursing jobs.com, this place where nursing, you can go to now, are you looking for a job and you're looking to fill a candidate in Dallas, this data jobs.com Now, knowing that these people are there, and if you put the right job in front of them the right title, right prescription in their commute distance, right. You know, even based on that, yeah, like, imagine, right, you put a job. And you say, Oh, the job is 100 miles away, that person applies will never get the job. The company never shortlist that

Chris Rainey 16:39

person. I just do spending money on that. You're not solely in charge for that click.

Yazad Dalal 16:44

And the expectation on the recruiter is really unfair. How do we get a recruiter to know that posting a job in Utrecht in the Netherlands, that they can also accept job seekers from 20 miles away? Or 10 miles away? How do we expect them

Chris Rainey 16:59

to know what the average commute times are, but no one's going to be able to retain all of that information is what a machine can learn all of

Yazad Dalal 17:05

that. And in fact, the machine knows all of that. And not only does it have that information, it knows how to act on that. So a job for one metropolitan area, the machine will know to post that in for other metropolitan areas, because it knows the commute time is acceptable for candidates in that region. Does

Chris Rainey 17:23

that could you also use or use any AI to also change the copy?

Kshitij Jain 17:26

Yes, we call something like, we have something called as job content optimization. So so the moment a job description comes in, which is a job copy, we know that this is for the multiple facets to write one is some handwritten content, right? And honestly speaking, are you really expecting recruiters or hiring managers to be copywriter? Again,

Chris Rainey 17:47

the copywriters then our markets analytic? There's a lot of things are asking, yeah,

Kshitij Jain 17:53

you want them to have data scientists. Like so. So machine could literally figure out the best job description that resonates. But machine can do that through, of course, the AI revolution that has came in. But we also have a very powerful 10 million jobs at any point of time. We know the job description resonated the most we have all the data with us marry these two together, and you have a wonderful output that will resent the most I've seen places where your writing interestingly, product champion. Now what is the product champion mean? The company might be feeling good about writing a product champion title is Senior Product Manager, product manager, a product associate SDE, as these are software development engineer, but you don't write SD to write senior software engineer, I had

Chris Rainey 18:37

one that literally we're hiring a social media. What we call it a social media assistant didn't get much traction. just changed it. So social media specialist. There you go. Like I was I was like, why is it not resonate? I was like no wants to be an assistant. I don't know. It's not no sexy. So things were I said, change

Yazad Dalal 18:54

it to how many days between when you first posted, oh, we

Chris Rainey 18:59

burned through hundreds of pounds of LinkedIn credits. Can we change it? This is exactly what we're talking about about 500 pounds of LinkedIn credit. If you look over it, and I was like, this isn't working, we're attracting the wrong people. Changes to specialist meet we hired we interviewed that week. The guy started on Monday. Just now imagine that at scale. Yeah, imagine that. 1000s and 1000s of people. And that took a lot of my manual me manually going in there the job description changed the title, resubmitted a campaign on LinkedIn, then we still had to go and shortlist again. It's just a huge time for the marketing director and me to go through all of that. And it was all because we if we had had aI automatically going this is what's resonating the most of this audience and automatically just did it for us. Yeah, we wouldn't have spent now doing it.

Kshitij Jain 19:46

And so you know, if you if you look at the entire HR ecosystem, right? Talent Acquisition is one piece of it. You put the rest of the entire HR ecosystem and the amount of money that gets spent over there. And here is at least two to three times more than that. You know in Tycho's system how many companies exist like indeed and LinkedIn? With more than $10 billion of annual sales? billion dollars of sales, not valuations, right? So now as you start thinking about it, you start realizing that there are nuances by country that different jobs by country, but then to everybody come on job boards, passive job seekers are not even going to job boards. They're on social media got

Chris Rainey 20:19

this new generation? No, definitely not. They're like, Oh, job boards, there aren't No, they're on social media,

Kshitij Jain 20:23

something pressing that came up. So this happened about a couple of years back, I started seeing a pattern, the latest new Nike trail running shoes came in front of me as an ad. I was like, I didn't see that ad for five, six months and never said a word about Nike trail running shoes. How did this thing know my phone knew that my shoes are getting worn out because I'm a runner in every six months a shoe get worn out and you want to have a Strava?

Chris Rainey 20:46

Me, right? What's running. So much running, you're doing your Strava account is

Kshitij Jain 20:51

epic world out there is so advanced and sophisticated. They know you when you're even thinking I like to make fun of it right?

Chris Rainey 20:59

All the time, I go on LinkedIn now. And because of what I do, my entire feed is full of like HR technology vendors, and or HR leaders, or where it's just basically me in a post, to your point, everything even before I know it to your point, before I even know I want something, it's the one

Yazad Dalal 21:13

is hyper relevant to you. That's the moment when you're willing to take an action. And I think that's what that's the first thing that KJ said, There is no such thing as a poor quality candidate. It's just about relevance. And so when we can be hyper relevant to the right candidate, yeah, the recruiter is delighted. Probably more importantly, the candidate is delighted they take an action. Yeah,

Kshitij Jain 21:36

and I've heard so many times done, like we should read saying that my recruiter is overburdened. They have the good hair and hundreds of applications to get to good applications, is that the real job? Their job is human to human collective,

Chris Rainey 21:48

you know, companies that are working with them. So why is it not working? Why the current solution is not solving this problem?

Kshitij Jain 21:54

Because it's how do you say, post and pray method?

Chris Rainey 21:59

How do I say any of these companies that I you know, I don't want to mention it and other companies, but like, there's so many companies out there that the sector as I speak to every day that claim they got is AI driven, ATS, etc, etc. They're still not doing this. What's the difference between what you're trying to

Kshitij Jain 22:13

achieve? ATS is down the funnel? It is applicant tracking system. Once application comes in, it processes everything. But if your input is you know, on

Chris Rainey 22:23

top a funnel? Yes, that's right, where people really aren't paying fairly not paying enough attention.

Kshitij Jain 22:29

Once it becomes too late. Yes, it is recruiters burden. I believe and this is my personal belief recruiter job is like a sales guy. He has to be selling to the right candidate. The job convinced the person about the job in the company how great that job is get that person to the door. 80% of his time is going to administrative stuff sourcing searching, going through hundreds of applications. I'll ask you to do an exercise. Just look at 100 resumes and go through that one by one. And every resume put about a minute. After 100 minutes. Your eyes will start popping out your brain will flow

Chris Rainey 23:05

the industry a little bit last week even it was tough and even when even like to pick on LinkedIn right now. But even when you shortlist it on LinkedIn is still a manual process to go for and say just do it like it's just an escaped his head.

Yazad Dalal 23:20

The recruiters craft is about being human to human Yeah. How do we remove all of these eye popping burdens? As much as possible? Do it at speed. Do it at lower cost and higher quality?

Chris Rainey 23:33

Yeah. What companies? Can you give me examples of the accountant using this successfully?

Yazad Dalal 23:38

Well, I think we don't want to give too many names. But there's a rather famous global ride hailing application company. Well, there's a few so we won't we won't be specifically that is

Kshitij Jain 23:53

the best growth marketers are the people who work for companies where their purpose of the business is hiring. So now you Stockport staffing companies is talking about gig economy companies, right? Insurance companies, financial institutions, financial retails, trucking, transportation, staffing. So you start getting I think direct enterprise customers would start getting there. I think they must have a recruiter marketer in the ranks to say okay, data driven optimization runs as a

Chris Rainey 24:32

separate role like where every recruiting team needs their own recruitment analytics leader,

Yazad Dalal 24:36

recruitment, analytics, recruitment marketing. Yeah, there's there's two ways to look at it, either to have that expertise in house with the knowledge of how to leverage platforms and tools like ours, or even from a managed services perspective, to pass that burden and that work on to a company like jovia and we manage it for them. How's that? So there's a couple of different ways but essentially, from a managed services perspective, a hiring was an offering yet. Okay, that's an absolutely. So a hiring manager or set of hiring managers will always be generating job openings. They pass them on to the recruitment team. We are in the business of as we keep saying, removing all of the backend work for a recruitment team, they can pass all of those jobs to us. We based on what we see in the job content, we know where to post, when, how to optimize the title, the location, the content, all we need to know from them is how much is your target budget? How do you want to optimize that? What are our goals? The point of performance marketing is set a goal strive to achieve it. That's okay. Just talking about Usain Bolt, set a goal strive to achieve it. And that's the value proposition that we have to our clients. Yeah, give us all the requisitions that you have. Tell us your goal. In terms of your business goal, what are you trying to accomplish your hiring goal? And then if you have a budgetary goal, what is that so we stick to it. And in return, we will deliver the candidates to faster, higher quality, lower cost. And you very rightly mentioned data analytics, we will provide with along with those outcomes. A full view of the entire performance, as transparently as possible, and it's very important in our industry is to be transparent. All the publishers that we're using, and how we're applying those budgets. And what I'm very excited about is because we have built a full data analytics console for our clients. It can take inputs from us, but it can take inputs from all of our clients, different HR vendors, it

Chris Rainey 26:51

doesn't my next question was the question of ever in my mind, I was like, how was the candidate experience? Is you? Are they seeing it as a white labeled version for the it's a unified

Yazad Dalal 27:02

analytics tool that basically says, give us a feed from every single talent acquisition vendor that you use, including us. And we will show you the performance? What are your goals? Are they around gender? Are they around ethnicity? Are they around job levels? And

Chris Rainey 27:17

we have even spoken? Is it at the recruiter level islands as well, right? I'm sure there's an important di, whatever

Yazad Dalal 27:23

that our client is striving to measure, we want to be able to show the performance of that

Chris Rainey 27:28

is that real time we'll offer that a campaign to have it that's real time, you can just see the

Yazad Dalal 27:32

whole point of this is real time. It's the stuff that humans can't do. That's what we're trying to specialize all at scale. I'm not that fast. Or chintan

Kshitij Jain 27:39

companies tell me that it took them months to put a report together.

Chris Rainey 27:44

Oh, yeah. 100%. And the

Kshitij Jain 27:46

best part of it is if we put all our data Think of us as a universal integrator, one place all your talent acquisition function comes in. And then not only tell you where the inefficiencies are, predict this will happen if this continues. This is how we should do a planning as a predictive analytics as well. I'm prescriptive and prescriptive. So now we say this is what you change. Say, Yes, it happens.

Chris Rainey 28:07

So interesting. Yeah. And it leads to like another episode where we do like a little behind the scenes. We'd love to do that to see see how it works. And I think the challenge for our audience, anyone listening right now is that they're inundated Yes, with a search or was with everyday their inbox is just getting bombarded. Right. And there's a new shiny tool, new shiny object that claims to solve all of their problems, their challenges, getting rid of that noise. And that's one of the reasons why we created the show. It's helped to help give them that as well. Yes, we've worked together for years, to be able to do that. What's one thing we haven't spoken about that you really want to make sure our audience walk away with,

Kshitij Jain 28:43

I would say that it's really strange thing I'm gonna say, I hope it doesn't go wrong.

Please

take, you know, half an hour or one hour, anytime, and I just want you to please go apply to a job in your own company, and see what that experience looks like. Please go and look at 10 job boards and see how job description looks like over there. And how your prospective employee experience we keep on saying Job Seeker. I don't think that's the right word, say it's your it's your it should be given the same status as your employee experience. Because, in fact, even more so most

Chris Rainey 29:20

the first impression, first impressions I achieved before even were any waiting until they get into give them a good employee experience. That's why I was I wasn't even thinking about the top of funnel lens this through the same lens that you've just described whatsoever. And I AF was really embarrassed to say that I have never ever applied for one of our jobs. I looked through the process of what that actually looks like for you by saying that now I should go and do it myself. And

Kshitij Jain 29:45

I think the world would be a better place in a different place if every Talent Acquisition Manager leader or hiring manager will go through the same process of finding a job in that company with 10 different job boards, clicking and applying for it just As a dummy axis exercise, this world will be a better place.

Chris Rainey 30:03

So when you bring on a job boards together, they're still seeing your experience. So because every job board has its own user experience, but they're not seeing that, because you've connected it, they're gonna go through your user journey, we're

Yazad Dalal 30:15

a platform for distributing these jobs in the right places at the right time, at speed, and at a lower cost. The candidate is not engaging with Joe VO, not the brand. They are engaging in many, many cases with our technology, but it's transparent to them. Okay? That's very, very important. Because they should be their experience should be I'm engaging with my future employer,

Chris Rainey 30:41

that's what desktops are trying to get. So that that's the experience that they're seeing. That's right. They use it as

Kshitij Jain 30:46

a fortune 100 company I was looking at. I looked at the job description on one of the job boards. I was like, there's no formatting, everything the recording into that. And you click on apply and went to another job board where you asked to log in, or log in it and it takes you to another job board, and then turn our job board off, right must be crazy. Like this is a fortune 100 company. One of the biggest brands like I would say they're the top 25 brands in the world, big

Chris Rainey 31:11

companies, I see data, probably the biggest culprits when I've in the past. This is years ago when I was thinking, Hey, do I want to start a company? Or do I want to go work for another company? I was like, wow, because I had been employed for 10 years at that point. So it's been a long time. And when I was going through some of the big companies that we all know that this is an awful experience already

Yazad Dalal 31:29

percent on me if I brought the percentage, right 40% Based on our data of drop offs, when there's a login required. Yeah, 40%. So not

Kshitij Jain 31:38

that is experienced, right? That's where the interface of job you could come in and say we guarantee zero drop offs. That means your entire recruitment marketing budget, your job advertising budget, could become half with the same results. And

Chris Rainey 31:51

would you replace that? What do you do instead? If there's no login experience? For example, what what's the experience?

Kshitij Jain 31:56

So when you create a login, you do some activities, right? You write a password, which is an adherence to the requirements of the page. You need a special character, a special character, alphanumeric all of that stuff, right? Yeah. So why can machine create one for you? Why do you have to create one you just put to email

Chris Rainey 32:16

is the best part sounds I use a suggested password? And I don't know. They just say hey, you got to try. Apple. That's I was thinking Apple, are you sir? Yeah,

Kshitij Jain 32:24

I've you don't even show that page, your email is gonna be captured in your application process anyways.

Chris Rainey 32:29

So why don't we just go past that? Correct. You're going to do it later anyway. At some point, but now you're already in that at that point. Now that's the thing you already got them in. And

Kshitij Jain 32:38

the some of the best people are not desperate. You are you're turning them away.

Chris Rainey 32:43

Who are the ones who are 100%? Not a desperate ones? Correct. I wonder what the talent you actually want the ones and they're the ones turning away? Yeah, exactly. They're the ones that you miss it and get everyone that you don't want to spend all the time in the world going through so you're

Kshitij Jain 32:56

done with them the best people by giving them job bad job descriptions, you're basically be selling yourself by putting wrong job titles, pressuring the job in the wrong locations. By putting a bad apply experience by by not being there where they are in the social media and the world of you know, worldwide web. You got to go to them. They don't have to come to you. It's

Chris Rainey 33:16

crazy that we started HR leaders jobs. I'm not sure if you know about this. Behind the scenes for about seven years, we've been placing coos just privately not because not for money, not for business, just that we have such a big network that people always call me, Chris, I'm looking for a new role or, Hey, I'm looking for a new CFO, and we just make the connections right? And we decided, Okay, last year, let's just create a video version. So we just do video, job ads. And the first one we did was for vice president people electro at Lego interview did Lego team that the current VPP Malik's that Lego set for Lego What do you want what you're looking for? What does success look like in a role posted on LinkedIn 75,000 views just from the video straightaway and 10s of 1000s of applications. And it was just a very authentic, simple video like, you know, to think it was like six minutes long. me asking hard questions. What you will have up Alex right, let's uh, yeah, what was your biggest challenges you had to face? Oh, what? And this was the person coming in? What do you wish? What would you wish you would have known when you came in, though? You ain't ever going to see that in a job description. That's that type of information if that makes sense, as well. And but my point is to social media element of it was everyone gravitates even got messages to me without one I was really refreshing to and I know and the person that took the job was from Salesforce. Their former review Alec's who was at our event, while at Lego, the one I've said to you, as well, so that's how it's so great, amazing. Watch the video applied, had a conversation because

Yazad Dalal 34:58

you're appealing to something inside these folks, that's deeply personal. Yes, that's that's that's also they're reconsidering. What do I do next with my life is about my job or my career. My life? Yeah, there's there's no more deep question you can ask yourself than that. And so employers jovia, we're in the business, you're in the business of helping people determine what they're going to do with their life. And it's in that very emotional, vulnerable, sometimes fragile state that are some of the world's most important employers are saying, username and password, please. And then I'll help you change your life.

Chris Rainey 35:40

Yeah. All these companies that we're talking about, they all have ATS is that they have similar a type of product like yours on top at the moment, what's alternatives? So it I can't name myself annoying?

Kshitij Jain 35:53

That's a very good question. What eight users do is ask a recruiter? Where do you want to post the job?

Chris Rainey 35:58

So you're just you're just, this is almost a new category? Yes. Is there a description of this category? What do you call it? What

Kshitij Jain 36:06

do you call it? It's called programmatic job advertising. The interesting thing is, you know, doctors can baby I should have known that. That's okay. But it is nothing but a new way of saying performance marketing in recruitment. It's really that, you know, we can give all the buzzwords, but it's basically optimizing for job seeker experience to deliver better outcomes. Why

Chris Rainey 36:31

ACS is not already doing this. They should be. But if you did not, yeah,

Yazad Dalal 36:36

I think there's a hard line between enterprise software technology, and you know, that I'm coming from that background as well. between that, and the concept of advertising, which is less predictable. And so, you know, I think what we're in the business of, How did his phone know he wanted Nike trail running shoes? How did your phone know exactly what you were looking for? It feels like magic, right? We're in the business of that magic. Except the magic that we want to perform is to help a prospective employee, find the perfect job for themselves. And to help a recruiter or TA leader, do their job, get back to those stuff they're good at by removing all the obstacles and giving them a seamless experience. That's the magic that we're trying to

Chris Rainey 37:22

perform. Other things a better way to wrap up the podcast. And before I let you go, where can people reach you both if they want to reach out to you both directly learn more, I

Yazad Dalal 37:33

think the ideal place to go is Joe veoh.com. Forward slash HR leaders. So thank you for giving us this opportunity. But if you go to Joe veoh.com/hr, leaders, you'll find a bunch of information there that I think is going to help recruiters help talent acquisition leaders understand what we mean, when we talk about that magic, and how we can help them get back to the work that they're really good at. And understand performance marketing.

Kshitij Jain 37:59

For you individually. LinkedIn, yes. And please do that. And I'm very passionate about what I'm trying to do. Anybody who's here. Anybody want to hear what we can advise them? My email is kj@gmail.com. Easy

Chris Rainey 38:11

to remember. Yes. Listen, I appreciate you coming on. Firstly, happy gazzard for you that you found this new connection with your way and purpose. And we were swinging for a long time. And I'm really happy that this happened. And obviously you've got an amazing person on the team. Go and join you. And I'll say I love what you're doing as well. And I think this is obviously a constant challenge that I'm hearing every day from every all of the people that listen to our audience, and regardless, they're rolled around. This is a challenge challenge for me, personally, as well, so I'm really excited to see how this evolves. I look forward to speaking again soon but we shake. Thank you very much.

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