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In today’s episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we welcome Amy Bouque, Chief People Officer at Kelly Services. Amy shares her journey from her early HR roles to her first Chief People Officer position.

She dives into the evolving nature of HR, the importance of vulnerability in leadership, and her belief that HR should move beyond transactional tasks to focus on truly impactful, people-centered strategies. Amy discusses the challenges of supporting a large, diverse workforce, especially during transformative times in the company.

🎓 In this episode, Amy discusses:

1. Her personal journey and the path to becoming a CPO.

2. Building a supportive culture where vulnerability is embraced.

3. The importance of transparency in employee well-being initiatives.

4. How HR leaders can adapt in a world driven by automation and AI.

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Amy Bouque 0:00

That's how we were taught to be leaders, right? Like to be to be firm, to be stern, to be clear, to be we need to be human, like if this pandemic, and in all of the brokenness that in the, you know, sort of the loneliness that's out there, we have to see each other's humanity, right? That's what the blessing of the pandemic and working each other's homes that we couldn't unsee. We saw dogs and babies, and, you know, fill in the blanks. And you know, in this time of subject such deep loneliness that we can bring this sense of connection.

Chris Rainey 0:39

AI, welcome to the show. How are you?

Amy Bouque 0:41

I'm well, thank you. How are you?

Chris Rainey 0:43

That's good, nice to see you again. I get to see you like, two weeks in a row, like I probably get, you know, I'm stuck with Chris again another week and the conversation. Got to see another reason to laugh. That's true. We got to see, you know, got to have you at the event as well. It's nice. Tell us more about that painting behind you. It's pretty cool. Oh,

Amy Bouque 1:03

thank you. Well, I when I started here at the office, I had this boring gray wall, and I would say things like, I'm not in prison. It might look like I am, but I'm not. And about a year and about, you know, I started the I should also say I started in the pandemic, because I'm one of those crazy people who voluntarily left, you know, their job six months into the pandemic. First time Chief People Officer and my team was spread, you know, sort of globally. And we didn't meet. I didn't meet them in person till at least a year, probably 15 months into my assignment. And in about 12 months, in one of my my direct report said, Amy, I think it's taken us this long, but I feel like we finally have each other's backs. And Chris, I love the metaphor of having each other's backs, that symbolic feeling and sort of sentiment. And so I didn't tell them when we finally met a couple months later, but I took a picture of them, and let me show you the picture. This is the picture of them. This isn't this is my team. This is my direct reports. And I commissioned a young woman, I artist, I know, and she made that artwork. And so that's each of them. That's each of my direct reports. And they each have a sort of a copy of that, of that art, but it's a it's a reminder for me, and a reminder of them that I have their backs and to have each other's backs and that, and it's one of the principles that I live by as a leader. But yes, that's still those. That's the art. I'm glad

Chris Rainey 2:28

I asked the question. Now, it's also a great conversation start. I'm sure you're in did your daily interactions? I'm alright, absolutely for

Amy Bouque 2:40

new conversations. It's also a great reminder for me and for them, right, like my integrity. And I think there's really great research that says when you have, like, pictures of your family, in your in your in your space, in your workspace, that that people who have those actually operate with a certain level of integrity or sort of responsibleness. And it's that for me, it grounds me like that. Grounds me like these. These are my people, and I'm taking care of them on behalf of the whole company, and it's a great grounding and reminder. Yeah, let's

Chris Rainey 3:07

take a step back before we take a step forward. Tell everyone a little bit more about your personal journey to first CPO role you said a minute ago. It

Amy Bouque 3:14

is my first CPO role beginning.

Chris Rainey 3:18

No, did you choose HR? Did it choose you? How'd you get there?

Amy Bouque 3:23

Oh, all right, well, I because I know you, and because I know what you believe in, in terms of, well, in terms of the openness I, you know, it's sort of in preparation for this conversation. I said that to myself, am I gonna, am I gonna speak the full truth? And in the full truth, for me, starts all the way back to my origin, which is, you know, I'm the youngest of three girls. My mom had three daughters by the time she was 25 My parents divorced when I was about a year old, and my dad moved to about 90 miles away, and so my middle sister used to say repeatedly that I was the biggest mistake. Mom and dad didn't want me and see they got divorced right after you were born, so you were the biggest mistake. Wow. And I believed her. I believed her for a long time, until I was old enough to do the math and realized that, wait a minute, my oldest sister was born three months after my mom graduated high school. I was not, in fact, the biggest mistake. I may have been a mistake, but I was not, in fact, the biggest mistake that my oldest sister, my mom graduated high school six months pregnant, and so, you know, that's sort of that coming up story for me is that, you know, I had a, I had two parents that, you know, the parents that raised me, neither have been to university. And so my mom and, you know, my mom graduated, you know, high school, six months pregnant. So my mom said to each other, three of us, you will go to university. You will live on your own, then you may get married, and then you may have children. That's it. That's the only road map we had. We didn't have any other sort of tools or tool boxes. And so, you know, I went to university without any clear understanding of what I was going to do or how to do it. This

Unknown Speaker 4:56

is what I that's what it's expected to be. And

Amy Bouque 4:59

so. I did it, and I ended up with a degree that sort of ended up with an undergrad and grad degree in labor relations. So I spent my first 10 years in manufacturing doing the really gritty, difficult contract negotiations with the UAW. I was a plant HR manager before I was 30 for a large, you know, sort of sheet metal stamping plant, but it came up the gritty, sort of the gritty side of HR, and then sort of pivoted 10 years in into more of the corporate HR and the strategy work. And, you know, really, you know, really honing my consulting and capabilities skills. And now nowhere in there, Chris, did I have a role model or sort of a belief system, that said I could be a chro. I was really happy in my most recent job as a number two. Talked under a really terrific CHRO, who's, you know, personal friend now of mine, and she's actually the one that when they when the executive search firm called her to say, hey, we'd like you to consider this job, she said, not me, but call Amy. And so that's

Chris Rainey 6:00

that is amazing. That's a real that's a real leader, right? There absolutely, friend, clearly, absolutely, and that's an important thing, right? That sometimes people see more in us than we see in ourselves. And a lot of, a lot of times we kind of think that we're not ready, and we kind of talk ourselves out of things. And other people can see actually, no you are ready. And to be honest, no one's ever ready anyway, and that's you have to understand that you have to seek discomfort and genuine way to become ready is to put yourself in that uncomfortable position to learn and grow and develop. So if you never do that, you just kind of stay where you are and talking about upbringing. You mentioned, obviously, upbringing. Thank you for sharing that. And I think you know my think, you know, my upbringing with my mom, raising us four kids on her own. She got pregnant when she was 16, with my with my older brother, you know, unfortunately, her, my grandma threw her out the house and so, so at that point, so she had to, you know, find a home. So it was pretty, pretty rough. But one of the things that the way that, well, the way that impacted me was a little bit different to you in terms of, my mom didn't say, you know, you gotta go University. You gotta follow this path. Unfortunately, it kind of, it was more of like a victim mentality of blaming everything and everyone and, you know, we're going to be stuck in this is, you know, what life is now for us, and blaming society and everything else, which is understandable given her experiences, because, you know, very tough, traumatic experience. But unfortunately, that came back to us as kids in not intentionally. And I always struggled with that, the idea that my life was already dictated in a way that, because I came up, you know, not with not with not much stuff, not much money, that that's now what I am. And I think Shane and I were like, No, we're not accepting and being victims, and we're going to take control of our of our destiny. And that was a real struggle, because a lot of friends family who were like, Who, who do you guys think you are to even think that you can achieve what you want, what you're verbalizing, if that makes sense, because this is where we are, and that was the hardest thing, not actually building the company, not not anything else, the change of mindset, of from scarcity to abundance, that was probably the biggest impact that's ever happened in my life. And as soon as we went from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset that we we can and we will achieve these things, it didn't matter which route, whether it was University, whether it is what me and Shane did and just went and got a job. Got a job straight away, soon as we legally could get a job, it just was like, we're gonna do this. I

Amy Bouque 8:48

love that for me, though, I think for me, what I had to set down was the imposter syndrome. That's like in spades, because I was, I was running and operating with people who who knew what they were doing and like they had it figured out, or so, I thought. And you know, so we talked about like you don't know what you're doing when you start the role, right? Like nothing gives you more humility than starting in a chief role, whether or not you're starting your company or or for me as the chief HR officer, I remember telling the CEO at the end of the first year, I'm starting, I'm in the start of my fifth year here, and at the end of the first year, I said to him, Hey, Peter, I finally figured out what my job is. It's taken me about a year, but I finally figured it out. At the end of the second year, I said, Okay, I finally figured out how to do my job. I'm working on it like and then at the end of the third year, I said, Okay, now I'm doing my job well three years. And in between that first year and second year, we were at the boat, we had a board presentation, and afterwards, he said, AI, that was it. That was your best showing. You did great. You commanded the room. You owned. It said, what shifted for you? And I said, Peter, I suddenly realized I didn't have to play the part of the CHRO that I was. The CHRO and that, like that shifted inside of me like that. I sort of set down that imposter syndrome, and I just said, this is, this is who I am. This is, this is, this is like, like, you chose me. Here, here I am. This is what I've got. And it just it opened up and said, It just opened up inside of me and and it just shifted inside of me. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 10:24

you gave me chills, you know, saying that I told you why, because I think I had the same experience. Because when I walked into my first company at 17, it was everyone in the room had a degree. They were all from, you know, not poor backgrounds. Put it that way, because I got this job by accident. I won't tell the story 1000 times that the audience has already heard, but I, you know, that job apparently required a degree in three years, so I was experienced by convince him to give me a job. So for years, I was always like, embarrassed that I didn't have any formal education. Where I lived, you know, on a council estate, you know, so I always hit I even spoke a certain way. I wouldn't speak with my accent. I would like shift my voice to sound sound more, yeah, proper English. And I the way I carried myself. It wasn't me. I was like projecting a version of what I thought they wanted to see, right? And unfortunately, that version of me did was accepted by the business and is what they liked to see, if that makes sense, so it was almost like, Oh, I'm being rewarded now for doing this, even though I'm not really being my authentic self.

Amy Bouque 11:38

And yes, how did you feel in your body? Exhausted. Oh, I

Chris Rainey 11:42

was having panic attacks. I felt anxious. I felt, you know, like everyone on the outside thought, oh, Chris is living a dream. He's doing really well, you know. And I'm, like, suffering in literally, as I said, I literally was having panic attacks, anxiety attacks. I didn't even know what was going on. I was like, what's going on? I'm like, in my dream, I'm like, making tons of money. I'm like, got bought my first house, and like, everyone's like, you made it, and I'm miserable, and no one understood. I want you, like, like, Get over yourself. Chris, it was exhaust. It was exhausted. And I think only, like, maybe three years in, I kind of just had this moment where I was, like, just gonna be me, and I had enough leverage in the company, if that make sense, that I was, I was kind of respected and trusted by the business that I finally could let down the walls, kind of to your point earlier. And I was like, and then when I started just leaning in and challenging more, I was like, Oh, this feels good. I'm actually like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Yes, right

Amy Bouque 12:37

that. So two things that we're saying that the two things I think back, I sort of come up for me is the definition of integrity, is that integration of our insides and our outsides, and when our insides match our outsides like that, that definition of integrity sort of really sits with me. But also Brene Brown's quote about belonging, right? That you know you and I were fitting in, yeah, like we were changing ourselves to fit in, but fitting in is the opposite of belonging. Belonging is when we can be ourselves and we, you know, we're not we're not there to make people like us. We're there to be ourselves, and with that being, we belong.

Chris Rainey 13:16

No, I love that. I think link that back to the story that you told me before we hit record about your recent event and your walkout music, because that also, because that links quite nicely to this about, really, you're bringing your your personality and you your authentic self to in a different in a unique way. Just share that, I think is an interesting story for everyone. I'd

Amy Bouque 13:37

be happy to so, you know, just for context, Kelly, the Kelly company, has a business unit called Kelly education. It is our fastest growing business. So you probably would not something you would know is that we are the number one provider of substitute teachers and support in the United States. And so that leadership team hadn't been together since before the pandemic. And so the business lead said, Hey, Amy, would you come and do the keynote? It'll be about 90 minutes. You'll start us off, but we're gonna have a leadership, sort of a two day leadership meeting. We'd love for you to go first, be happy to I'm a little bit pressure prompted. I'm not the best planner. I like, you know, I sort of don't sort of prepare a lot in advance. Hadn't gotten started about a week before. A week before the session. I get a note that says, hey, you knew we need your walk up song. Walk up song, I don't know what my walk up song is. I don't know. I want to, actually, I do want to know what your walk up song is. I'm gonna tell the story long enough for you to think about your your walking

Chris Rainey 14:39

the whole time. I still haven't come up with one. So hard, you know, I

Amy Bouque 14:43

went through some. I went through some funny ones, like, Bon Jovi is living on a prayer. Like, no, can't say that one. Eminem's lose yourself. Love the beat. Probably shouldn't do that at a corporate event. Journey. Don't stop believing that's too obvious. Like, so cliche, so cliche. Too cliche, too obvious. But you know, I don't know if you ever seen the music, the movie, the greatest showman. I love

Chris Rainey 15:07

it. Yeah. And soon as you say, Great show. And I already knew when you I was like, and so powerful. So just connects to your soul, almost the sound, the sounds like that whole movie is just unreal.

Amy Bouque 15:17

Sound Track is amazing. And there's actually there's a YouTube video clip of Kayla settles singing that when they were, I think it's when they're getting the movie funded. So they were bringing in the funders. And there's a, there's a version of her singing that, like, in, like the green room everyone looks sort of in, like just regular day street clothes. And she sings it with such powerful, sort of so powerful strength and, like, vulnerability. It's like, I'm not scared to be seen. I make no apologies. This is me, and that's one of, like, sort of the big lines. And so I chose that and, you know, I as I chose that song, I thought, well, that's kind of a risky choice, but I love that song, and so we're gonna do it. So I sent it in. Didn't think anything of a couple days before the session, like, alright, what am I gonna say for 90 minutes? Like, how am I gonna get ready? They just started anchoring back to, like, I've been at this for 30 plus years. I've done it in the, you know, in every work, works, workplace you could think of. I've been in HR. And this idea of who I am and what I bring to the table in this authenticity of a leadership and this idea of belonging that we were just talking about, I'm going to bring this to the team. And I was just coming off of a yoga retreat with another CHRO, and I actually incorporated breathing exercises and regulation and self regulation as a part of the session, and I just really walked them through sort of for 90 minutes, sort of like, what does it mean to Care for Self, and what's the impact of the self to the team, sort of, who's the team? And and we talked about, what are our habits, what are what are our beliefs, what are our practices? And we just sort of walked it through, and I had them journaling and workshopping in the room, and I was just completely and authentically me, and I don't know that I had done it something like that. My the leader gave me full autonomy to do echo wanted to do. I laid it all out there. I told stories. I gave them, you know, principles and practices and, you know, I invited them to sort of make commitments to each other as an accountability partners. And Chris, I have been blown away by the number of leaders that have reached back out to me to say what they've anchored to right. In particular, the big haha was, you know, you've heard the African proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So I put that up. And by the way, chat GBT did an image for me that was stunning, right? Like I had quickly chat GBT do an image of that. But the team loved that so much that they've adopted that for their 2025 priority on thriving people, which is one of our enterprise priorities to go together, right? So that this idea of being myself, sort of in bringing all of me into this conversation, all based on asking me what my silly walk up song was. So all right, back to you, what's your walk

Chris Rainey 18:06

up song? Oh, literally, I've been struggling. I was sitting here thinking, well, first and foremost, before I talk about that, it's incredible what happens when we open ourselves up to people. For example, when I first kind of shared that with my teen that I was struggling with my anxiety, and, you know, I needed some time out, and I was having panic attacks and struggling with mental health. All of a sudden it opened up a vast amount of conversations, and I got text messages, emails, etc, and all of a sudden I just, these are some people I've known for years just had this barrier that was just broken down. So the way you opened yourself up to that audience, and the vulnerability people relate to that immediately, oh, wow, you just shot, just me. You ever have those moments, and also they can see them little bit themselves in you, in ways, and it was through storytelling, and that's how we connect, right as for stories,

Amy Bouque 19:01

that's right, and I think we have to remember, like, as a I'm a Gen Xer, right? And we were taught when we entered the workplace, leave your personal life at the door. We didn't have cell phones, we didn't have any of the the integration of, you know, laptops, but we were told to leave your personal at the door and that you give the company or yourself. And I think your point, Chris is well taken, which is we, that's how we were taught to be leaders, right? Like to be to be firm, to be stern, to be clear, to be we need to be human, like, if this pandemic, and in all of the brokenness and the, you know, sort of the loneliness that's out there. We have to see each other's humanity, right? That's what the blessing of the pandemic and working each other's homes that we couldn't unsee. We saw dogs and babies and, you know, fill in the blanks and we that's the blessing that I think we can take with us. And, you know, in this time of such. Deep loneliness, that we can bring this sense of connection.

Chris Rainey 20:04

You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna look at my most played on, oh, good Spotify. Let's do it. Because that is gonna tell me. I struggle to remember all the names of the song. So I've got, like, certain songs in my head right this second. I have no idea what they're called.

Amy Bouque 20:22

Yeah. Like, I like Lincoln Park. I

Chris Rainey 20:23

like Lincoln Park quite a lot. Oh, yeah. So there's a couple of their songs that I'm like, I have no idea the name of the songs I had. You know what? I'll be honest with you know what the first thing that came to my mind is, and it doesn't make any sense, and I could never do it, but it just, I don't know why. I'm just gonna be really open about I always, like challenging the status quo and, like, really constantly shaking things up. So like, Do you know the song, like, twisted fire starter. Like, I am a fire starter. Twisted fire starter, yes. Do you know that song? Yes, yes. Yes. That's what came to my head, Prodigy for a prodigy. And the reason it came to my head is like, I always want to shake things up and get make people uncomfortable, make like and constantly chat like are constantly innovating and challenging. So like, I'm always kind of seeing myself as a little fire starter inside companies trying to constantly like, why do we do this? Just because we've done it this way doesn't mean we should always do it that way. And sometimes it's got me in trouble in company, and sometimes it's been the innovation that's saved the business and just generate to generating millions of pounds and more revenue. You do need those little fire stars, and I'm safe fireside, by the way,

Amy Bouque 21:41

in a positive way you're not, you're not trying to burn the place down. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 21:44

so that's the first one. What did you fire start? I could never actually play that at an event, probably, but I think it was fun to think, I don't

Amy Bouque 21:53

know, Chris, I'm gonna challenge you to think twice about that. I'm gonna challenge you to think about maybe going ahead and playing it like when I see you next. Well, I'll play it when I see you next. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 22:02

Well, what's really top of mind for you right now? What's really, you know, this is such a crazy time that we're living in. We've got the political landscape. We've got this shift in work now, with a lot of companies bringing back employees into the workplace. We've got, you know, so much going on. You know, we've got the AI revolution. They're all facing what's top of mind for you right now, you used

Amy Bouque 22:27

a word earlier. I can't remember if it was before we started recording or since we recorded. You used the word weaponize. And I think for me, what's top of mind is how to continue to build bridges between some of our language and, you know, sort of efforts around AI, around, you know, upskilling around, you know, sort of the future of work in such a way that we are not weaponizing that to our teens, right, like I think so much of our well intended efforts land in a way that creates discord, you know, concerned for our teammates and so much of what I've been focused on, sort of within sort of Kelly of the company, but also I know that we're doing, sort of, from a solutions provider, is how to create bridges and ways in which we can meet people where they are and bring them along on up skilling, bring them along on understanding what AI is and how it works and what automation is. You know, when I started at Kelly four years ago, I said to my team, like we've got a lot of manual processes, and if we're going to live into our fullest potential as a as a people organization, we sort of, you know, sort of rebranded ourselves. We have to, we have to shed the the manual, transactional work, it has to be done well, non negotiable. Data's got to be clean. I do our processes well, but then we're going to live into our fullest potential. But the only way it's going to happen is if you get grumpy. I need each of you grumpy, because I need you to know you're worth more than what you're delivering. Your value is there. And so what's top of my mind, for me is, how can I, how can I continue to help the my function to deliver into that and how do I help make sure that they're getting the capability building and the competency so they can be successful, that we can, you know, meet or exceed the organizational needs in such a ways that we're helping the business to thrive and grow through through our humans. The balance sheets are all about humans. Now they're, it's, was it 75% of most balance sheets are humans? Yep,

Chris Rainey 24:26

100% when you put it that way, right? It's just, it's, kind of seems crazy that we've taken so long to be having these conversations. Like, I remember years back, CHRO was telling me, talking to me, ladies, like eight, nine years ago, talking about, like, where's our people P and L? We need to have, like, a people P and L aligned with our financial P and L, and then that should be, that should be the two things that we're looking at every single day, right? Whereas, typically the past, it was the CEO and the CFO having a conversation and making decisions. Without that extra layer,

Amy Bouque 25:01

yeah. In what I said is, we spend all this time doing the financial reviews, you know, doing, you know, doing our forecasts, our business, you know, business or financial reviews, but we don't spend equal amount of time doing the human capital reviews. We're getting better, yeah, but we don't spend enough time in that spaces. We're getting significantly better and recognizing it. But some of it's on the fault, some of its rest on the backs of us, the HR team, to be able to have meaningful insights, to be able to have, you know, sort of the the swagger, to be able to help the organization to understand the purpose. And I remember I learned from a couple of experts about sort of the history of the functions, and you look at like finances 50 more years on HR, in terms of the history of sort of getting their getting their getting their stats straight. Like Nobody argues what gets in the P and L, Nobody argues whether or not it's a credit or a debit. But we still argue within HR of what a calculation is for turnover, what a good number looks like. We're still arguing about things that we shouldn't have to. We should have it all sort of buttoned up. We should have, like, a really good set of terms and belief systems that we all operate under. And I wish we did, and it's something I keep talking to my prayers about,

Chris Rainey 26:16

constantly having to still justify your existence. Like, you know, I always use this example of, like, no other function says they've got a business partner because they're just part of the business. They don't have to say, we've got a finance business partner, you know, HR always sort of makes up, you know, we're we have HR business partners. No, you just have business partners the same way that finance do and every other function do. So sort of just like justification of wealth, whereas no many other functions don't really have to do that. If that makes sense,

Amy Bouque 26:48

I know exactly what you're saying. Thankfully, I haven't experienced that recently, but I know exactly what you're referring to. I think it's more about what is our worth? Like, what do we deliver? I don't, don't call me and ask me to plan a party. I'm a terrible party planner, right? Like,

Chris Rainey 27:05

I think, I think you'd throw a very good pie. I'm just playing.

Amy Bouque 27:10

It wouldn't be fun. I'll get

Chris Rainey 27:15

your analogy,

Amy Bouque 27:16

yeah, but some of it's on us, right? We've got it. We've got to be able to demonstrate our worth and be able to and we're, you know, we're doing it here within, within Kelly, right? We were, you know, we as a workforce solutions company. We were like the cobblers kids, like we were out selling and delivering for our clients and for our talent and living up a noble purpose. But what we weren't doing inside was sort of investing within our own function. And so a couple years ago, we had to make some really tough decisions, make some hard, hard things happen, and I laid off 25% of my team in one day. Chris in one day. It was July of 2023 it was probably, you know, I've done a lot of really tough things in my career, but that was probably the hardest day of my career, and but I knew we had to. We had to meet the sort of the business financial obligations for back office support, and we had to find new ways of working. And in that it is was one step closer for us to really be consultants and be able to be with the business, because I protected those roles like those were non negotiables. You know that we were going to bring really smart people to play, to work with the business, and that the experts in our centers of excellence, we're going to continue to be experts, and that some of the other work I had to I had to put through technology and put through process changes and simplify and automate and say, You got to self service on this, because we can't. We don't have humans to be, you know, you know the phrase, like, I got a guy, we no longer have the guys to be the guy. Like you're gonna have to self serve. Took my team about a year, but we've recovered, and are actually our engagement scores, and our our team is, is performing amazing, sort of, short of amazing would be anything. Would be a miss, but, but we have to do it. Like, we have to do the work right. So, like, I'm not, I'm not about sort of changing the business's perspective on HR. I'm about HR showing up with the right with the right mindset that makes it really easy. And my, my, my HR business partners are fully embedded in the business. They are very well respected and regarded because they have business knowledge, because they have consulting capabilities, and they have a team of people with their hands on their backs to make sure they have everything they need to be successful.

Chris Rainey 29:32

Yeah, you're moving to be more trusted advisors, as opposed to the order takers.

Amy Bouque 29:38

Absolutely, we're not auditors, we're not process administrators, we're not order takers. We want to be consultants, and we're living into that space. Love

Chris Rainey 29:49

it. Going back to what you said about the experience of having to let go a part of the team, and this is the thing that the unspoken, some of the unspoken things that happen in H. Are that people don't really experience until they get to sitting in the seat you are right now. How did that make you feel? And then, how do you balance your heart and mind?

Amy Bouque 30:14

Ai, it was, we were doing it as an organization, right? So there was all the functions, all the business was looking at it, we were going through transformation. And you know, that's sort of a code word for, right? A lot of changes in the business, and unfortunately, that often means shedding cost, and then that cost, as we talked about, means people and I, had to, I had to work carefully with, you know, sort of my team, my direct reports and the business to determine what I could and should do and how I could and should do it. But what was clear to me is I had to take full and complete responsibility, and then I needed the I needed to to to open and close the door at my feet that I made the decision that I was going to own it and and so I chose that path, and I stand behind each and every decision that was made. And I so I so I did. And so for the months leading up to it, owned every decision, sort of leading up to the decision, sort of cared for and sort of accepted responsibility, but it, it was the worst day of my career. I I've worked in automotive for 10 years. You can imagine all the layoffs I delivered. I'd hired if I'd laid off, I'd hired 10 people. I'd laid off one, right? So I've probably hired 10,000 people. I've laid off at least 1000 people in my career, but nothing was so devastating then to do it, and that, you know, to my team, right, like and so it was a lot of work for my care for myself. It was a lot of, you know, sort of turning to my, you know, my my spouse and my closest family and friends to care for me, because I wasn't in a place to do that well and then allow myself some grieving time. But I had, I believed in what I was doing. I knew ultimately it was the right decision. I am confident now that we did the right things, and you know that it delivered the way I needed it to deliver. This team is performing it at an exceptional level. They're delivering more with with less, and the business is is seeing and responding. And I couldn't be more proud of this scene if I tried, but they went through it was it was tough. It was a tough recovery, it was a tough grieving season. But there were things that were non negotiable for me. You know, each person sort of get sort of personal connection, you know, care for them. And the best way we knew how, you know, we weren't walking any but we always stopped at years ago, walking people out the door. I mean, nothing makes me more frustrated than when organizations treat people like criminals on their last day. Is,

Chris Rainey 33:00

yeah, it's

Amy Bouque 33:02

something I thought, you know, this organization sort of, I first came on because it was such a risk averse organization, and I thought, My gosh, you know, you can't go from being a trusted part of the team and then just being the wrong seat at the wrong time and have your position be eliminated, to be told, sorry last day, here's your bag. How'd you go? So, you know, sort of treating people the way I would want to be treated. And so the day before we did the announcements, I actually got all the leaders on the line, and I said, and this is outside of HR we were doing a larger scale the same day, and I just asked them to close their eyes, and I asked them to imagine it was them that was going to get the notice. And how would they want to be treated? How would they want to be talked to? What words would they want to hear? And I asked them to open their eyes, look at me. Write that down, do that. So I realized it was traumatizing for them, right? Because they were already feeling the anxiety of having to deliver those messages the next day. But I thought, you know, we've got to center ourselves, right? You know, my long story to come back to a point. My daughter spent a month at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. She has a complicated health part of this living with chronic pain, so she goes this pain rehabilitation program. Good work for her. It really sort of sort of reset her pathway. But in that, I learned a lot of techniques. One of them was regular, regulating my own by regular her breathing to help her to reduce her autonomic nervous reactions. And so, like, there I am, front of my the steam like, you gotta breathe before you get on those calls. So we're gonna square breathe in for four. Hold for four. Out for four. Hold, that's

Chris Rainey 34:35

that same as box. Where even is that same thing? It's box, but same thing, same same square breathing, box, breathing that one I feel like I'm anxious, which helped me, helps me massively with my panic attacks. Chris,

Amy Bouque 34:45

I did it before we got on this call. Yeah, just a minute, just a minute of square breathing. Because I, you know, I went to a large public high school in a large public university, talking like, this is not something I got any experience with.

Chris Rainey 34:59

Yeah, yeah. So powerful like that. One thing was, of all the different things I've tried when, when I was struggling with anxiety, I'm definitely doing a lot better now, out of all the things, the techniques and everything, even beyond a medication, which I never really pursued as a solution, that one thing when I you know, because obviously your heart rate starts increasing when you're feeling anxious and like panic, and then just to slow down my breathing, recent myself concentrate on each breath, to hold and like, just lower my heart rate, my adrenaline. You know, adrenaline can only last for so long. So then that kind of just lasts a few minutes, and then all of a sudden, I'm okay again. So that was the biggest thing that has helped me so but thank you. First we want to go. First of all, it's thank you for sharing that story. I think it's really important that we talk about things like that, because those are the things that you don't get prepared for on your certification, or your CI, PD in the UK, or, you know, you you learn that the hard way, and it's tough. So it's important for people listening to hear your story and understand that the impact that has on you personally and also the the the individuals that you letting go. But I love the exercise that you went through with those leaders to really, truly make them understand and just take a second, because that's really important. Because sometimes we can put up this sort of like a motion, like, emotional wall or barrier to try and protect ourselves from it, and just and just be like, Oh, it's happening, and you kind of don't really take time to sit with it, if that makes sense. I really like, yeah, so in

Amy Bouque 36:34

the and the consequences of those are terrible. I've been with leaders who rush the message and they sound, you know, frenetic. I've been with another leader who was robotic when they were delivering the message, and I was with yet another leader who cried. They cried. I'm like, There's no crying in baseball. You don't get to cry now. No, no. Like, yes, I know this is hard on you, but that's for later. Right now, about you right now, yeah, not about you. So, so it,

Chris Rainey 37:06

yeah, yeah, it's part of the transformation, right? And part of the journey. So it's always tough as well. But it's also even more important for everyone listening, for you, to have a community of HR leaders around you that you can absolutely can tap into when you need to, because sometimes internally, sometimes it's lonely. Oh

Amy Bouque 37:23

my goodness, yeah, that was definitely one thing in the CHRO role in particular, is lonely, right? The things that you you know. And so I very intentionally built a sort of a small board of directors of CHRO peers that helped guide me sort of through. They are the people I can call to to sort of get a gut check or just to have a shoulder. And it's been, it's been a lifeline.

Chris Rainey 37:49

Really random question, do you think H decea role is probably the loneliest role in the C suite?

Amy Bouque 37:59

I wonder if so. I wonder if you would say the same about the general counsel. I wonder if, yes, yes, except for maybe the General Counsel. Maybe also because of the confidentiality and the, you know, and it has to be navigated. But I do think it's, it's, it's either number one or number two. Well, let's, let's excuse the CEO, because the CEO probably has, you know, sort of their own.

Chris Rainey 38:20

So I was thinking exactly that, because I'm like, Chris, don't

Amy Bouque 38:24

you feel like you've got the loneliest role? And

Chris Rainey 38:26

that's lucky. I've got a Chester role in my life, my coach, jester, wherever you are right now, I've got Chester. Yeah, I do think it's very lonely. A lot of people speak to me about, oh, you know, you're so cool. You run a company, the CEO. And sometimes I look at them, I'm like, You have no idea when everyone's staring at you for answers. You know everyone's expecting you to lead away. You kind of never. Inevitably, you mess up, you make mistakes. It's just hard. Like, if I'm like, everyone likes the idea of being a CEO, until they get to sitting in the seat and realize this is what it truly means. And I and I'm not perfect, and I'm still improving every day, and I make mistakes, and it's hard, it's very hard,

Amy Bouque 39:14

it's hard, it's hard. It can be incredibly humbling and also deeply rewarding. And so that's, that's the part where, on balance, the reward, you know, comes, I think, from the humility, right? So when you you stay humble and you stay open and vulnerable, the way you've talked about, in the way you do it, and the way I aspire to then, as the rewards you see, the rewards of, you know, the nurturing, the the disruptions, sort of that you've entered into. And I know some of the market that you're you're trying, you're capturing like, you see the reward, and you're like, okay, but you're also carrying that burden on your back. And I remember years ago, somebody said the same thing, like, gosh, I want to be like you, and I grew up like to you. Autumn. Manufacturing, sheet metal stamping, UAW, like,

Chris Rainey 40:03

yeah, I felt the same way when I first went from being an individual contributor in sales to being a manager. I always thought that being a manager was the dream. I always like a high performing sales executive, you know, and I had no team. I was like, oh, you know, I want to be a manager. Became a manager, and was like, I want to be back to going back to being an individual contributor. This is not why I thought it was, you know, I think a lot of leaders aren't prepared for that. They kind of just get pushed into these roles thinking because they're successful as an individual contributor. That's going to translate to leadership and management. It doesn't, not always. You definitely need that. And also the all of the things that we grew up to your point earlier in the conversation that we are told were that skills and competencies, both soft and superpowers, sorry, both superpowers and the hard skills have shifted. You know, as a leader, you were told that you always have to have the answer. You don't, you don't. You know your employees are not your friends, so you don't be vulnerable and talk about things of them, we definitely didn't have conversations around well being back then, we didn't have conversations around gratitude. Dei, just kind of like all of the things now that have seemed to be like the most leading with empathy. No one talked about leading with empathy. That wasn't a thing that you spoke about right back then. So it's what it means to be a leader. Now it's changed. I think it's just taken, I mean, it should have always gone this direction. I just think it's taken us some time in the pandemic, fast tracked. So absolutely

Amy Bouque 41:39

fast tracked it. And, you know, the inability to look away, I think generationally, sort of the next generations are, are unapologetically saying, right? I, I want to come back to the hard and soft skills. But let me just finish my story. I remember, I had a young woman who worked for me a number of years ago, and I asked her if she wanted to take the stretch assignment, and it would require some some travel, and some extra, some extra effort. And she looked at me gently and said, I thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. It sounds like a really terrific opportunity I'm gonna have to pass, because I just signed up to get yoga, yoga, you know, yoga, yoga instructor certified. I'm like, you can say no, ah, like it was years ago, like, oh, you can say no. It's so true, because for so many years, I didn't know we could say no. Like, you can say no. Like, who knew? But? But back to your point around the hard skills and superpowers, right? It was at least the US, the way that we've been explained, the hard and soft skills, and I understand is like the US military termed anything that didn't require machinery to be a soft skill. That was the definition. If it didn't require machinery, it was a soft skill. Well, the word soft, I think, has been manipulated or misunderstood to be easy, yes, soft. Soft doesn't mean easy

Chris Rainey 42:58

or fluffy, or like fluffy or

Amy Bouque 43:01

Yeah, or nice to have Yes,

Chris Rainey 43:03

nice to have a great way of saying it Yes. And I think each person calling it, I think Josh Burson coined it as super powers, super powers, super skills, yeah, super powers, right now. Power skills, I think, is the terminology. And I think we needed, we needed to give it a rebrand. It needed a rebrand, because those are the most and especially with the evolution of technology and AI, absolutely, they're gonna come they're gonna be more important now than ever, because a lot of those things we can already automate and do those things so now it's really more about what it means to be a leader, isn't to to manually delegate all of these things. A lot of that's going to be done for you. So now it's having meaningful conversations and connections with your people. And that also goes for our customers as well as we kind of open up. It also goes for our hiring managers. They can spend more time having hiring managers and our recruitment teams having more valuable conversations, as opposed to doing a lot of the admin lift. That's right, that's right. So those skills are going to be more important now than ever.

Amy Bouque 44:05

That's right, less about the transaction, more about the human. And so the ability to motivate and incentivize the human, yeah, it does go from brawn to head to brain, right? Yeah. And

Chris Rainey 44:18

now there's also this expectation from employees that companies have a focus on their well being, that the companies have a focus on the environment, that the company has a focus on making sure that they have a focus on dei so there's a lot of these expectations that non negotiables now that when people are looking at companies saying, is it? I saw some research recently, and it was something like 60% of executives in this survey said that they would leave their company to go to another company if they took care of their mental health and well being. That's how important. When it was to them that they would leave for the same amount of money, same benefits, but the company has more focus on a culture of well being. And I thought that was pretty eye opening to see that number. This is to see that no, that's also one of the reasons I left my last company and started this company. What one was, obviously, I wanted to start my own business, but the other is, I just didn't feel didn't feel good. And it was like, Chris, man up and get on with it. When I said I wasn't feeling great, meant from a mental health perspective. Ah, get over it, Chris. That's, that was the reaction, you know, that I got in that in that company. I could never message my boss and say, I need a well being gay. Oh, I can, like, just thinking about right now out loud, like, I mean, just I could never message the table, like, what get into office. Wait. Like, you know, you

Amy Bouque 45:48

know, I feel that, you know, we did, you know, talking about putting the systems and structures in place, we had a separate bank of paid time off in sick days, but people weren't taking their sick days, except for for being sick. And so we rebranded them as sick well being Mental Health Day nice. And so they're in your bucket. So we because at first I was gonna say, Let's combine them and just give them everything, like just one bucket of paid time off. And my benefits lead wisely said, no, no, show them that we're gonna give five well being days. And then a couple years later, we can't afford, like, the full paid family leaves. We give some limited family leave, but we added, and this is before I once started saying it. So it's been probably about three years, we added a moments that matter leave, and we don't require, we don't require any documentation. We just say, if you've been here at least six months of three days, you've been here a year, you get five days, and just put the request in HR, people will review it, no documentation is required, and take your paid time. And it was game changing. And the leader, the business leaders, actually said, Make it easy for people to use it. Don't make it too onerous, don't require a bunch of documentation

Chris Rainey 47:01

is and they won't do it right, just that one removing just that, hey, I have to tell you what I saw you kind of doc

Amy Bouque 47:06

or document, what

Speaker 1 47:08

it's for. Yeah, yeah. So,

Amy Bouque 47:11

so we've had people, you know, our, our, our leaves don't cover all of life's darkness and hard days and so extended bereavement, non covered bereavement, divorce, you know, life hap life happens. And so we get, and so we actually a woman, call it, you know, sort of email me directly and say, you know, I have an adult child who had, who had a medical condition and to have a paid week to be able to go be with them, out of state. Well, they had their, you know, their medical procedure changed my belief in Cali, right? Just, it just reinforced, like, who we are and like we really do. Didn't say changing. It reinforced, sort of her belief in us and so, so, to your point, like, we've got the systems in place, like, to your point around leaving, like, so we added those days, so it's really easy for them to play, to say, I get five well being days. I'm taking a well being day, like it's sick mental health well being days, take them. Yeah, it's moments that matter. Leave. Take it and and then when you're here, you're gonna feel really, you know, cared for, and want to bring your best, and want to bring your authentic self to work and that that heart, human, you know, sort of a human heart brain connection, sort of, we hope, is getting nurtured. No,

Chris Rainey 48:27

that sends us very strong signal, right, that you're really living up to your values and your your your purpose, right? Because there's, there's one thing talking about it was another thing doing it, and the fact that you took the time to separate it out. And even branding is important, of calling it the moment that matters and showing that, hey, you don't have to share it or document it, and that people were taking it and I can't, I can't tell you the amount of times in my last company that I found out after the fact that members of my team had taken holiday for those moments that you're describing, some of the hard moments in life, and they're like, oh, I have to take a week of my actual holiday holiday, yeah. And they just even, they're like, Oh, I just assumed I couldn't do that. I'm like, no. Just like, if you would have just told me, I would have been like, that's fine. They didn't know that, right? Like, or me, personally, I've taken the weeks off in the in my previous company when I was struggling my mental health. I've now taken two weeks off that. Now I don't have in the summer to spend with a family as well. So I love that such a small thing, but such a huge impact.

Amy Bouque 49:35

And that's the cool part by you as your CEO, me in this role that I serve, is I, I can help shape the systems and the programs and the offerings. You know, Kelly's also got this great equity at work, sort of belief in our one of our products to our clients, and it's really helping to remove the barriers of access to work, right? So we did it ourselves, we said internally, and then we encourage our clients to do the same. We took our own. We took away any education requirements, much like you're saying, like, Why did you have, why did you have to have a bachelor's degree to be a salesperson, right? Like, you don't, you don't have to. So we removed the education we looked at, you know, you know, what are the adjudication criterias for hiring? And so looking at the systems and looking at the in the programs is really what, I think, the call to action for all of us and the HR leadership roles is to really look at what are the systems and programs and processes, you know, cultures of verb, how it's how we act each and every day, and what we offer. So I always

Chris Rainey 50:30

think it's interesting that we always have this, like lot of people have, this mentality of we to add, add, add, whereas just taking the time to look at what you already have, work backwards and reassess everything, and look at those moments that matter to your point, across the entire employee life cycle or journey, you know, from the very beginning to people that have been with you for 20 years, and looking at all of those moments that matter and reassessing them. And that's a perfect example. You're like, why are we doing it this way? We have like these these days, bunched into their into their holidays, and what if we separate them out like such a thoughtful, simple thing to do that then had a such huge impact, but if you just didn't take the moment to do that, you know, people like chasing the next new AI tour, important, you do have to have a, you know, a foot in the past and a foot in the present, but it's like these. Those are the things that I see for companies that really make a difference. You know, there's one. One of my friends was struggling with his mental health, and I asked him, What's the one thing that your company did? And it's a big company, I can't share the name. No, I'm not sure if they want me to, what's the one thing that they did to support you? What's the biggest thing they did? Right? And I had all, they have all these benefits, everything you could think of. It was none of those benefits. It was that someone in the team called in once a month just to say, how are you? And he said, I look forward to that call every single month. And doesn't didn't know this person, you know, just didn't feel any guilt from them or like they had to, you know, impress them. You're just someone who just told him to check in and say, How are you doing? How are you really? And let's have a look and have Yeah, how are you really? Yeah, not just, how are you right? And he was like, that meant the most to me. And he was like, throughout the pandemic, that was so important to me, that had that could that just to know that someone there cares, and I'm not just because he lived at home alone, he was isolated on his own. And I was like, wow, of all the benefits and all the flashy apps they have, well being apps and all these different things, that's the thing. And he was like,

Amy Bouque 52:31

yeah, the care, the care, yeah, when we go back to the automation and all of that work, which is really important, it's, it's an important part of our ecosystems and changes, but it's how we do it, right? Are you doing things with and for? Are you doing it to them? So I tell my team all the time, we do things with and for but not to people. I love that with them and for them, but not to them. And

Chris Rainey 52:55

if you do that, you don't have to sell them, no, because they're part that we know we were a part of the journey. You don't have to then have to then have this huge, heavy come along on the journey with us. We've been on the journey, and that's what happens when you do it that way. So you're describing, as opposed to spending months or year rolling something out and then saying, Hey, everyone, what your thoughts and feedback? And you're like, I wonder why there's no adoption, right? Yeah,

Amy Bouque 53:20

in fact. In fact, there's a revolt, right? Like, oh,

Chris Rainey 53:24

we thought we under we thought we thought we knew what was right for you all. Even know that you're working every day and listen. You know what? We can talk forever. I feel like we could have to do a whole series of podcasts together. We're never gonna get through one half that, by the way, everyone listen to half the questions that we had written on my document we didn't even talk about. But I love the conversation. Regardless. I think that we that we just kind of hit on a few things that took us down this rabbit hole, and I really, really loved it. I hope you've enjoyed it. I know we didn't got a lot of questions as well, but I really appreciate your candidness, your your your vulnerability and your also ability to share some really impactful, practical things that you're doing that's really, truly having a ripple effect and making an impact, and that's really what it's

Amy Bouque 54:11

about. Thank you very much. Thank you for the opportunity. I'm happy to continue the conversation. It's been a pleasure, and you lead the way. Chris Rainey, so I'm just following behind you in your openness and vulnerability.

Chris Rainey 54:24

Do you know what we do before we leave everyone listening? What is your walkout music?

Amy Bouque 54:29

Yeah, what's your walkout music?

Chris Rainey 54:31

I'll put it. I'm going to post this clip on LinkedIn, and I want you to post it in the comment section below, and I'm going to tag, tag Amy in and we all want to see what your walkout musics are. This is going to be super fun. So do let's do it. Apart from that, make sure you go connect with Amy on LinkedIn. I'll put a link below to her profile. And yeah, I appreciate you coming on the show, and I look forward to seeing you again soon.

Amy Bouque 54:53

All right, my absolute privilege. Have a good one. Thanks.

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