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In today’s episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we welcome Vanessa Iloste, VP of HR for Asia at SEPHORA. Vanessa shares her unique career journey, spanning continents and industries, and the transformative power of career conversations within organizations.

She delves into the importance of career conversations in employee retention and growth, emphasizing that HR's role extends beyond transactional interactions to fostering meaningful, experiential relationships.

🎓 In this episode, Vanessa discusses:

1. The power of high-quality career conversations in retaining talent.

2. Her insights on fostering psychological safety in career discussions.

3. How career development and continuous growth drive employee loyalty.

4. Creating experiential environments to prevent transactional work cultures.

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Vanessa Iloste 0:00

There is always the risk of creating an environment where where work is transactional. This is really my biggest risk, for me as an HR leader. I don't want you to think that this is a transaction. I mean, we have in Sephora sales associates. We call them a BA. They are in our stores. They come every day, and I want them to fear every day that it's a new day and that they are going to grow, they are going to learn, and there is a path for them to continue their journey with us.

Chris Rainey 0:33

Vanessa, welcome to the show. How are you?

Vanessa Iloste 0:35

I'm very good. Chris, thank you for your invite. I'm so happy to be with you today. It's

Chris Rainey 0:39

almost surreal to see you in person, because we're connected on LinkedIn, right, yes, and people aren't probably aware that you're based in Singapore, yes. So I am first and foremost. What brings you to the UK?

Vanessa Iloste 0:50

Well, I'm very, very lucky, because this week I have attended a leadership conference, and I was refreshing myself with some new concept around leadership, leadership of the future was the title of the conference, interesting. And, yeah, it was. It was a fantastic week full of learnings and energy and incredible and I took this opportunity to come to visit you.

Chris Rainey 1:16

Yeah, when I got the message, I was like, really sounds like, this is so cool. So internal leadership conference,

Vanessa Iloste 1:21

yes, indeed, with the LVMH group. Yeah. So we're very lucky. We have a beautiful RV image house. And the first time I went there, it was in 2001 and I came back in 2024 and it's still as exciting and as as as energetic as it used to be. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 1:39

It's incredible that they took the opportunity to bring everyone together, because that's becoming less and less common. It's true, but it's so important, especially at the leadership level, where you want to build those relationships and connections as well. So it's great, very

Vanessa Iloste 1:52

meaningful, to get to know people in person, like I get to know you in person. I've been listening to you for many years. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 1:58

and tell them a little bit about you and your background and journeys, because it's pretty fascinating. You also have your own show as well. So tell everyone a little bit

Vanessa Iloste 2:06

about that. Yes. So I was born in France, and when I was 19, I got a scholarship to study in Japan. Wow. So yeah. So I left, I left home at the age of 19, and I've been in Asia now for 28 years. I've lived in Japan for five years, in in China for 17 years, and now in Singapore for the last seven years. Wow.

Chris Rainey 2:28

What? How did that? How did it happen? Like, what was the Where did idea come from, to go study abroad? So

Vanessa Iloste 2:35

it was quite simple, Chris, it was less glamorous than what people think. There was a there was this paperwork to be done to enter a program, a university program, and they say, if you are interested in applying to the scholarship to go to Japan, you should tick this box, really, and that's interesting, and I just tick the box. And the box that I ticked actually changed the rest of my life so far. Wow.

Chris Rainey 3:01

How did your parents, like react to that? I'm just thinking as a parent myself, like I don't know how I'd feel about that. I just don't know a bit of random question. But

Vanessa Iloste 3:10

no, no, it's a very good question, and I still have conversation with my mom about it still today, so I think they were very surprised, but they were very supportive, and they were a little bit scared to be very honest, because at that time, it was a very different world. We didn't have WhatsApp, we didn't have face time, yeah, we didn't have Skype or this, you know, usually

Chris Rainey 3:30

picking up the phone like that. The physical It was odd phone.

Vanessa Iloste 3:34

It was fax, actually,

Chris Rainey 3:35

oh my god, yeah, I remember. I remember the facts days. I'm not, yeah,

Vanessa Iloste 3:39

yes. So it was facts at that time, because phone was too expensive. Oh, of course, yeah. So it was, it was very difficult to keep in touch, I mean, on a regular basis, and and they were very scared, but they decided they would, they would support me. And I'm very, very grateful for, for for that, because otherwise, you know, I would not have experienced all the things I've experienced. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 4:02

so talk us through, like from there to the journey to now. How did you come again? So

Vanessa Iloste 4:07

I was very lucky. I got another scholarship. I needed support for my financial support for my study. So I got the scholarship from the Ministry of Education, but I got also a scholarship from the average group. Okay, so when I graduated, I contacted the average group and and at that time, it was a moment where there were not many opportunities. So I started my journey in it. So I was actually an it the worst it guessed that ever worst IT person in the history of it. And when I and when I resigned, they were very happy. So I did these two years, and it was in a bank and and when I finished the mission with with the bank, I contacted the image, the LVMH group again, yeah, and they had an opportunity in Hong Kong, so I moved from. Japan to China, and I've been working now for the average group for 23 years. Wow.

Chris Rainey 5:05

What a language barrier. How'd you overcome that?

Vanessa Iloste 5:09

I was in a homestay family, also immersed every single day, yes, and they couldn't speak English. I mean, they I mean, I am very grateful to them as well. They are. I'm still in church with my home, stay mom and my home, stay dad and and they really made it a point that within one year, I would be fluent in Japanese. So they did everything they could. I was a project for them. They were very, very supportive and very eager to because they wanted me to graduate from school, right? So they understood that the language would be the first learning in the language. Yes, wow. So I actually, yeah, I went through and I lived with them as a family for a couple of years.

Chris Rainey 5:52

Amazing. So your current role now you're vice president of HR Asia,

Vanessa Iloste 5:56

yes, indeed, yes. So my scope is actually China, which is very big market for us. And we also have what we call Asia Pacific EAP, and includes Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Australia, New Zealand, India, Indonesia and the Philippines, yeah,

Chris Rainey 6:15

should put that on there. Tell them quickly about the podcast before we jump into more. Yes,

Vanessa Iloste 6:22

yes. So I Yes, yes. So I started with my very, very good friend and partner in crime, Vanessa Theo, a podcast called carrier transition 18 months ago. And we actually, I mean, use your podcast as a proof of concept. Kind of

Chris Rainey 6:38

brisk. Can do it? Anyone can.

Vanessa Iloste 6:40

Yeah. I actually we listened to you for, you know, a lot of episodes, very, very attentively, looking at what you do, how you do, yes, and we had a couple of, you know, role models like this. So you were one of the, one of the ones that were very, very big already at that time. And we started writing, you know, the concept, and now we have four seasons already, 28 episodes. So we are focused on on the concept. I mean, everything surrounds all the research around what it takes to do a good career transition, which is

Chris Rainey 7:15

what we're going to talk about today. And I think you already told me it's already in the top 10. Yes,

Vanessa Iloste 7:20

it's in the top 10 for the for business carrier in Singapore. Wow. And we're very happy about that. And we have a lot of followers and a lot of questions. I receive a lot of questions during the week. What

Chris Rainey 7:32

have I got myself into? Yeah, so

Vanessa Iloste 7:34

it's, it's, it makes my life very, very bright, very colorful, yeah. Probably building an

Chris Rainey 7:42

incredible community. And it's also for your own personal development exactly you don't realize that you doing the show, constantly growing and developing, exactly self like I'm immersed in conversations every day, and I'm Yes, I'm asking questions, but

Vanessa Iloste 7:55

I'm learning so much I can imagine. Well, let's

Chris Rainey 7:57

jump straight in. And also, you said you're very passionate about career development. A lot of research around the area. I think you said to me that you argue that high quality career conversations are crucial for strategic talent, for the agenda, strategic talent agenda. Why are these conversations more than just a nice to have?

Vanessa Iloste 8:18

This is a very good question, because I believe Chris that in the future, people are going to stay in organization because of the way that they are developed and grown and taken care of. So there is the whole well being piece of it, which is very important. And you told me you have also a lot of interest in DNI, so, and I have an interest of DNI. So that part is going to be very, very continue to be critical. But I really, really believe that another part is the way we are going to take care of our people when it comes to their development. And I think the authenticity of it and the way we, you know, we build it and we co create it together, is going to be most probably one of the reasons why they stay with you, the one, the one, the reason number one reason on top of, of course, the you know, the fact that they are well paid and we provide the right benefits and composition, but I think that the one of the very important things on the list is going to be the way I'm being developed, the way I'm being grown. So I think it starts with the conversation you have at work. It starts with the way you and your leader and your sometimes HR business partner is having conversations with you so that you can think about the future. You can think about the person you are the person you want to be, the professional you are the professional you want to be. So this is really, really something that I put at the heart of my agenda today.

Chris Rainey 9:47

No, I love that. What's your advice? Of you had so many conversations about what's the best way to approach these conversations?

Vanessa Iloste 9:55

So the first thing to do is to dare having them, because it's not an easy thing. To do. And I want to encourage anyone who is listening to us to actually knock on the door or send that email or do whatever it takes to have that conversation. I think the second thing is to be ready for the word of possibilities. The word of possibility you, you are a very good example of that, because your carrier was not actually a podcaster accident, so you're very good an example of that, Chris, but maybe you know, if I had met you 15 years ago, you already had something in your mind around creating HR leaders, but you needed someone who actually listened. You needed someone to stop doing whatever they were doing and just listen to your idea. Pay attention to what you had in your mind, in your heart, in your soul, and help you to basically get it out of your chest, right? So I think this is really the first advice I want to give to people, is explore as wide as possible, the world of possibilities. Of course. I mean, I belong to a very big, beautiful group, the average group. So my first instinct is, let's try to find an opportunity within the average group, yeah,

Chris Rainey 11:06

which is probably the testament to why you've been in the business for so long, exactly, constantly been developing Exactly.

Vanessa Iloste 11:11

So I've been given that opportunity. I'm so grateful for everything I've received. So I want to do the same for for my for my team members, so my colleagues. So the first thing is, of course, every image group. But you know, at the end of the day, if for any kind of reason, for instance, you you move to a place where every image doesn't exist. There are not so many places like that in the world now. But if you move to a place where, you know, we don't have opportunities for you, then we need to open the conversation to something bigger. And in case you want to be an entrepreneur, then why not? Let's also have this conversation, yeah. So opening yourself to possibilities and making them as wide as possible, yeah, and as daring as possible. This is something that I will, I will give as a first advice,

Chris Rainey 11:54

yeah. Why do you think that so many people, leaders and managers, or just everyone in general, avoid these conversations. Is it because they're they're worried about what, what's gonna they're gonna find out, or are they worried that person's gonna leave their team? Like, what's the most common reasons that you see that people avoid having those conversations in

Vanessa Iloste 12:13

Asia, the research shows us that the leaders feel a very, very big sense of duty to provide the right guidance. Okay? And this is very much coming from the culture, you know, some some parts of, I mean, all parts of Asia, have this idea that the boss has to play the role of the guide, and the boss is supposed to know everything. Oh, yes, yeah. So they feel when we, when we, when we do focus groups, because we have done a lot of focus groups, and when we do focus do focus groups, they say that they they want their people to grow. They want their people to be developed. They want their people to move to other opportunities. But they're really, really scared of giving the wrong piece of advice, of not knowing what is the path to the new role. Because sometimes it's not a simple game. It's not like, okay, Chris is here today and tomorrow, Chris is doing something else. Maybe it takes, actually, two or three transitions before you get to where you want to be. So this is the part that they find difficult, because they they are not aware of what it takes to build this conversation. And instead of of starting it, they maybe they refer them to the hrbb, or they refer it to someone else. Yeah, and they miss such a great opportunity that's

Chris Rainey 13:29

a really important moment that matters, yes, that they're now missed. Yes, exactly the real, true relationship, exactly deeper relationship. Whereas they're like, actually go to HR I know you've lost yes, that exactly. So what type of support and training guidance are you providing some managers to help them?

Vanessa Iloste 13:45

Okay, so we do have carrier conversation guides. So they are very, very simple, and I would say, very intuitive. So we do have, you know, we have structured the conversation into a couple of parts. Practical, very practical. So you have this. It can be whatever you want. You can be three parts, four parts, but okay, the hours is in four parts. And then you go through the different parts and and you do have some powerful questions to help you to actually go through these parts. And we also remove the barrier around you don't need to know at the end of the conversation, what is the result? Yeah, that's

Chris Rainey 14:27

true. Because there's this pressure that I'm not going to have the conversation unless I have the full answer, which is, very rarely are you going to have the full answer exactly? Yeah. So it's okay not to know exactly.

Vanessa Iloste 14:37

So the first thing we work on is the mindset. What is the mindset that you should have when you enter this conversation? And the mindset is a mindset of openness, a mindset of also generosity. I think you need to have generosity. You want to to bring something to the table. You want to support the person in their, in their in their quest. But it. Is there is no right and wrong. So you should feel very free. And I think as much as possible you should try to make it fun, because it's sometimes it

Chris Rainey 15:08

gives you a lot of pressure to go exactly. You don't. Last thing you want is people to go, Oh no, not another career conversation, yeah, end up. It'll end up like the performance review,

Vanessa Iloste 15:18

exactly. So this one, this one has nothing to do with performance review. This one is light and this one is a very bright

Chris Rainey 15:24

sometimes people get that confused. Yeah, it's very,

Vanessa Iloste 15:29

very common. Really. It's very common. And there are still many organizations where actually the performance management is not separated from career conversation moments. So the first thing I would advise is actually to make it a very, very separate moment, clear in the communication and very clear in the communication, and do not mix the two, because, and if the person in the performance conversation, because usually it's happening annually, is asking for a little bit of advice around the future, we take another appointment and I will, I will stick to the appointment, and I will say, let's make it A special moment for you. This

Chris Rainey 16:02

is also, in some ways, sometimes a new concept for the employee. So you having to educate and communicate effectively to the employee that this is what a career conversation means. Yes.

Vanessa Iloste 16:12

Yes, indeed. So it's very important to also give them frameworks as well. Yeah, because on the other side, on the other side. So how do you prepare? Because you if you don't prepare, it can be, you know, very daunting and very scary and but if you prepare with some simple pointers around, you know, me, example of a couple things, a couple of thing would be like, for instance, what is the most exciting into what you do today? What is the part of your job you

Chris Rainey 16:38

love the most? What gives you energy? What

Vanessa Iloste 16:39

gives you energy. And what are the things that you do outside of work that are actually very, very meaningful to you, that you would love to have at work? Because sometimes, you know, like, for instance, I don't know about you, but for me, the podcast today is my hobby, so, but I love doing my podcast. Yeah? So, you know, it could be a conversation to say, Hey, Chris, you love podcasting. You know what? How could you integrate this podcasting into into your day, into your into your career, into your job? So these are questions that are, I would say, simple, and they are easy to answer. And then you will say, okay, when you look, you know, like, maybe a bit more classic, but it's quite a difficult question. Next three years, you know, what do you want to do and then, and then becoming a little bit more granular about that. But I think the beginning is really the strength, yeah, and, and the joy and, and the happiness that you What

Chris Rainey 17:31

is something that now, now you want to reframe it to something that they look forward to, exactly excited about, exactly to the to the meeting. And I can only imagine that these how strong the bond will become between the leader as well an employee. It's incredible. You start to get into that, especially when you get into weaving the personal passions. And

Vanessa Iloste 17:50

it's it's really powerful. So at DFS, we did some experiments. When I was working for duty free shoppers, we had this carrier conversation. The business was stopping for four days every quarter. Wow. To do carrier conversation.

Chris Rainey 18:00

Very clear message as well. It's a very,

Vanessa Iloste 18:03

very, it's a very powerful message. And we had a very, very strong decrease of our turnover rate. Wow, because people actually every quarter, they were excited to talk about their future, and we're supposed to think

Chris Rainey 18:14

about, where am I going to lead Exactly, exactly like

Vanessa Iloste 18:17

instead of sending the resume, they were talking to their boss about their future a lot

Chris Rainey 18:21

of times, right? And I'm sure you've experienced this when you do exit interviews, I would say 80, 90% at the time. It could have been avoided. It could have been avoided like, because they'd, oh, I didn't think we had that exactly, or I didn't, you know we or the issue they had, we could have easily addressed Exactly.

Vanessa Iloste 18:35

Oh, it's such a pity. It's a missed opportunity, and it's too late, yeah. So you don't want that to happen, so you want to have the prevention I look at it as a health checkup. So the carrier conversation is like a house checkup. You check with your leader whether you're on the right track with what you want to do and what the organization is ready to offer. It's also on both sides, you know, because what is the organization having for you. I mean, we're all transforming, we're all growing, we all developing. So what is happening there that could be interesting for you? Yeah,

Chris Rainey 19:07

when you can tell, and there's certain skills that people have that you may not be aware of, that they can bring into the business exactly that you just had you, if you didn't have that conversation, you would never know. You would never know. You never know. We always spoke about some of the risks. But what are some of the other risks for organizations that don't do this?

Vanessa Iloste 19:24

I think there is always the risk of creating an environment where where work is transactional. This is really my biggest risk, for me as an HR leader. I don't want you to think that this is a transaction. I mean, we have, you know, in Sephora sales associate. We call them a BA. They are on, I mean, they are in our stores. They come every day, and I want them to feel every day that it's a new day and that they are going to grow, they are going to learn, and there is a path for them to continue their journey with us. So this is, this is really the. Number one thing, which is it's not transactional, is experiential. It's very, very important, your your your the quality of what the way you relate to your employer, the way you relate to your organization, is experiential. I'm experiencing thing, and sometimes it can be a little bit of confusion. What do you mean? You want me to become a store manager. I'm scared about this, you know. So it can be an experience that maybe is not yet what you want, right? But at least you're having the conversation. But you have the conversation, and that makes you reflect, and maybe you say, You know what? For the time being, because of family reasons, I'm not ready yet to, you know, to be a store manager, because I need certain hours, I need a certain shift, but within two years, I would like to explore it again. So, you know, it's, it's, this is what I call by experiential. It's, it's really making an impact on you.

Chris Rainey 20:49

It also one of the things failures I see in the past of HR and teams is they assume, yes, they know what that individual wants, and they get it wrong. So many times, exactly, don't assume anything. Never, Never assume. I've made this mistake so many times this person maybe doesn't want a promotion, or this person what I'm like, Yeah. Never assume. Never. Because you're removing the opportunity from that person exactly, to make a decision for them, you know. And

Vanessa Iloste 21:15

you don't treat them like adults. No, exactly you need to treat them like adults, yeah. And we are all adults, and we are all able to say, you know, this is good for me, this is not good for me. Yeah, and the cool creation, I mean, what? I really enjoy the cool creation of the carrier path, yeah,

Chris Rainey 21:30

because they're engaged, they're like, it's not, it's not like something being done to them exactly, they're going to be more engaged and more motivated. They're going to probably put more discretionary effort exactly, into it as well. Like, this is, oh, like, yeah, it's incredible, like, the fact that we're even having these conversations. When I started my career 20 years ago, this was not something. You were just told where to go, what to do, and this is where you go, right? Exactly. There was no conversations around career conversations as well. What would you say is, like, a common misconception that people have around career conversation. Misconception

Vanessa Iloste 22:01

is basically people think that it's going to be the box become a Pandora box. I don't think the box becomes I mean, when you open the box, people think that you are going to open and then there is a genie, or whatever, something you know, malevolent coming out of the box. This box is full of treasure. This box is full of energy. This box is full of ideas. There is nothing wrong opening the box, yeah, so I want everyone to open the box and find out about each other what, what is the potential? The potential is gigantic. So, yeah, this is, this is, I think this is this misconception, is, let, let's keep it and the wrap. Let's not take any risk. Let's make sure we don't talk about it. Some people, sometimes they avoid the conversation on purpose. And I'm like, This is so sad. I want you to open the box.

Chris Rainey 22:55

Well, the like we just discussed before, the opportunity cost is that they may leave anyway, exactly, so you can not open the box, but then you just, you'll find out, hey, I'm, you know, you'll find out the hard way,

Vanessa Iloste 23:08

it's too late. That's when it's when it's too late, when it's too late. So don't, don't. How

Chris Rainey 23:13

do you you spoke about, like, some of the, you know, great innovations and conversations that come out of this, but how do you ensure that this is aligned to the business.

Vanessa Iloste 23:21

This is a very good question. So the thing is, the talent conversation should be a conversation that is as important, as critical as the strategic agenda. So this is part of the strategic agenda. So I'm very, very lucky because within the average group is the case. So we do have actually opportunities to talk on a regular basis with our business leaders about our talents, and we do that very, very often and and even at the highest level of the organization. I'm not at that level yet, but I know for a fact that it's happening, and we can see, we can feel it's happening. So you know, like, for instance, a couple of weeks ago, my boss went to another conference in in California, and she came back and she said, Look, they are these three people in different parts of Sephora. They could be interesting for for Asia. So this week in London, actually, I had, you know, conversation, yeah, which came out of those kind of, yes, yes. So this is, you know, this is a president. I mean, she's very charismatic, she's absolutely fantastic. She's really people oriented herself. But she came back from three days on the strategic planning of Sephora for the world, and she came back with three names that could make difference for Sephora in Asia. They are already within Sephora. So this is something that I take as a gift, because, you know, I don't need to be the I don't, I don't need to look for these names. But I can tell you, it's, and she, she's, I mean, she's the person who will hold me accountable. She's, I mean, this is really very high on her agenda. And she would, you know, and I call her a couple of times, as I do, you know, in London. And she was asking me, so how did you, how did you, how did you go? Is this meetings, you know, so she, she really, she really means it's a good, good

Chris Rainey 25:07

segue. Then, how do you hold leaders accountable for this?

Vanessa Iloste 25:12

So this is a big question, and I think this is, will be the one of the biggest question of the future. I mean, the first question is, how do you hold the leader accountable about their basic managing people skills. I think this is the first one, because there are too many times people who take, you know, like, leading people for granted, and they don't have, like, the basic, I would say, manners and respect. I mean, for me, it's respect. I mean, it's part of the DNI agenda, but it's very, very close also to the

Chris Rainey 25:38

being human, just, being business, yeah, exactly,

Vanessa Iloste 25:41

exactly, being, being, being a good human to your people. So this is the first step, which, to be very honest, is the beginning of the journey. I mean, in many, many ways. I mean, I'm sorry, and I feel a bit ashamed to say that in front of you today, but it's the case. And I think there is then some second steps or third step. And I think the future is going to be I mean, some organizations do it already very well, but I think it's going to be okay. Every year. How many people have you developed? How many people have you grown? I've

Chris Rainey 26:11

already seen it, and linking that back to the compensation Exactly. So, redevelopment, yeah. So

Vanessa Iloste 26:15

this is the future, and in the future, we will be not only about the what, but also the how. I mean, more and more about the how and the How will be around the way we develop our teams, the way we grow them, we where we inspire them. So, yeah. So this is, I mean, for me, it's going to be the next level of accountability.

Chris Rainey 26:33

Could you share an example of, like, a well executed career conversation and how it led to an outcome for the business?

Vanessa Iloste 26:39

Yeah. So this is this business case that I like very much, which is in DFS duty free shoppers. So it dates back to, I think it's 11 years ago already, and I was the HR VP for one region for DFS, but I was double hatting for the HR director for the airport. I love airports. I love duty free business. This is an environment that I really find exhilarating. I mean, there is something in the energy in the airport that makes you, I mean, excited to go to the airport as a traveler, but also as a as a business person. And because of the hours, you know, it depends that Ethel is one of the biggest number of hours operating for an airport. But at that time, Hong Kong, Hong Kong International Airport, had 18 hours of operation per day, wow. So we needed to have three shifts. And people had some very tough shifts within that, the duty free. Within the duty free. So we had 1350 employees at the airport. Oh, in one airport, in one airport. Yeah, it was. It was massive, and, and, and, and, we needed these people to see, you know, how their future will, will will continue, their journey will continue. But it was, it was very tough. It was very intense, yeah, so what we did is that we define actually carrier conversation as a way to identify the talent at the manager level so that within two years, they can actually move out of the airport to other parts of the DFS group. Amazing. So we started this career conversation journey, and after every quarter, after reviewing all the carrier conversation with the leaders, we debriefed, and we had a commitment that one force of our leaders would actually move on to another role, either within the airport or to outside of the airport, to another part of the DFS group.

Chris Rainey 28:30

Amazing. That's so important because, like, especially in retail environments, most of the time the opportunity doesn't exist. It's and it's for many people their first job exactly, coming in, they're like, Okay, I'm gonna be here for x amount of time, and then they'll probably get a real job. Not to say it's not a real job, but like they did, many of them leave because they just don't see a path. Yes, you know, speaking to someone in Tesco, you know the stores here, yes, and she lived across the road from me, the woman Rose, Rose is never gonna see this, but I'm gonna say she's been there for 25 years and never has been approached about an opportunity outside of her working behind the till. And she was felt no she was almost in tears when she told me that she's heartbroken and she had her 25 year anniversary, and it wasn't even acknowledged that's so sad by the business, right? And I had never had a conversation about her career 25 years I literally because I felt heartbroken for her when she told me that story. So the fact that you're making that from part of the the journey from the very beginning and they can see a future ahead, is how soon into them joining Do you usually we

Vanessa Iloste 29:39

start very early, because we have the check in conversation. So we want to make sure, you know, there is in a lot of retail organization, a lot of turnover within the first 12 months. Yeah. So in order to do that, we have very, very strong onboarding. We have a new onboarding program with Sephora, called the glue onboarding program. Good name, yeah. He's very Yeah. You can see AI. Today. So this is the glue onboarding programs. Throughout the glue onboarding program, we actually catch a we do check ins with them to make sure

Chris Rainey 30:09

that in a retail environment. So you, you do have, basically,

Vanessa Iloste 30:13

I mean, for me, it's, it's a, it's skill sets. That is HR BP retail. So we do have, like, HR, people who are focused on retail,

Chris Rainey 30:22

but, I mean, I mean, logistically, they meet them in the airport. They go to

Vanessa Iloste 30:27

the store. I mean, I used to go to the airport. So you go to, yeah, you go to the airport, and you have this conversation on the floor. So do you have a back office? No, maybe not. So you go to the cafe. Oh, wow, yeah. So just visualize, yes, yes. So you So, usually you take them to, I mean, I did that. I was very lucky. At that time DFS was offering me, I had a special budget for coffees. So I So, I love a coffee, yeah. So I was, I was offering them coffees at the airport, and we would sat down together and and some of them today. You know, Chris, out of this DFS program. They are today, CLI DFS in LA in in San Francisco, in AI, in Saipan, in in all in Japan and all parts of the because they had demonstrated that they had done these two years in the airport, the biggest airport of of DFS at that time, and then they had her in their stripes. So they went off, and they start teaching their skills and their, I mean, imparting their skills to others, yeah. So you can, you can easily do it actually, and the store manager is supposed to do it as well, right? And store them. The store manager is also part of this, and the store manager is very, very important role to play. So the store manager can, from the beginning, start giving some insight, even sharing their own stories, you know, like this is we started Exactly, yeah. And the fact that you were talking today about Rose is already great, because, you know, I just want to say to everyone today, we celebrate rose from Tesco in the 25 years. Yeah, she spent with them. And if Tesco maybe didn't have the opportunity to do it, I want to say a big thank you, and I want to acknowledge all the hard work of this fantastic lady. I

Chris Rainey 32:10

messaged Tesco. Ah, that's good idea. HR, team. Very good, very good. And I made sure, very good, like you need to. I was like, this cannot happen exactly just like and she rose, she falls my day with joy exactly like she because I live right next to it. Every day after work, I go in now buy some groceries, and she's like, Hey, Chris, how's Robin? Then she remembers she, and she knows everyone's name. She's been there for so long. She knows she, she makes it, she, she fills everyone who walks in that store. They with joy. She's a really outgoing and bubbly character. She, you know, she interacts with my daughter, Robin, she she remembers even what you want, right? Fantastic. She really lives and, like, puts her full self into it. So when you have someone like that who's dedicated is you have to, you have to pay more. I totally agree during this conversation, how do you do you have a specific structure of how you identify high potential? Like, what does that look like? So

Vanessa Iloste 33:08

high potential is interesting because the truth of the matter is changing. So the models, the models we were having for many, many years today, are becoming obsolete. And the part where they are becoming obsolete, is around the dimension we are doing research right now, around what it means to be engaged and committed. Because what it what, what looked like being committed and engaged before is very, very different today in a hybrid environment, exactly, very different, very, very different. So I think there is, I mean, Vanessa, my partner in crime, in the podcast, and me, we are doing quite a lot of research on that, and we are trying to define, actually, some new models. So I think that in the couple next couple of months, we will be ready to come back to the show and tell you a little bit more about that. In

Chris Rainey 33:54

order to have these conversations, you have to, I'm assuming, you have to create the psychological safety Yes, and the culture Yes, in order to be able to do some because you could, you could schedule them in, but if you haven't created that environment for people to feel like they can open up, then yes. How important is that as part of the conversation? I

Vanessa Iloste 34:12

think it's very important, because people are sharing their dreams. This is really, really I mean, you're talking about something that is one of the most precious thing we all have in our lives, which is the dream, the dream of becoming someone different, the dream of having another role, the dream. I mean, this is super, super personal. It's super precious, and it's something you can crush very easily. You don't

Chris Rainey 34:36

want to put it out there. I've even been like that with like family members and friends are not want to set it because you don't want to be shut down, right? Yes, really, you're being very vulnerable.

Vanessa Iloste 34:47

You are extremely vulnerable. Yeah. So I think is to acknowledge the fact that this conversation is is very, you know, unique, and in this moment, should be unique. So you. If you if you do it, it doesn't matter. You know where you are, but be present. Listen to the person with no judgment, because your dream and my dream might be different, but they are. They are good dreams. Yeah, you know what I mean. It's like we have different dreams of the future, and still, we can continue collaborating. We can continue enjoying and learning from each other. So being aware of how precious this person is is. I mean, how precious what the person is sharing with you is very, very critical in the in the process. And have zero, and this is a part of around DNI more, but zero judgment around what they say to you, yeah,

Chris Rainey 35:41

how, given the sensitive nature of the conversations, how are you doing this at scale? Are you tracking this? Are you recording conversations? So we do, like, where do they sit?

Vanessa Iloste 35:52

So we do have technology to help us, and to be very honest, and this is a message out there to all the AI as provider, we don't have the technology we need because it's too constrained for the time being, really, yeah, it's not, it's not enough. It's not big enough. So I think we do have, like, we have a very, very good system within our VM rise where you can actually yourself, yeah, it's very good,

Speaker 1 36:17

very good name, very, very on brand, very on brand,

Vanessa Iloste 36:21

and and in this system, you can share about your dreams, you can share about your aspiration. You can you can really have a first go at describing what future looks like, and the leader is accountable for doing some form of documentation after the career conversation. However, the future is going to be very interesting, because we are going into a marketplace, in marketplace, yes. So we are going into a marketplace where, basically, people are going to work more in your own. It's a we are building our own. Oh, yeah, very interesting. The current

Chris Rainey 36:55

talent marketplace providers, yes. Why did you make that decision? Because

Vanessa Iloste 36:59

we need, we need something very specific. I think we, I mean, I cannot talk on behalf of the AI image group, but I think that for the AI image group, AI as one of those team investment,

Chris Rainey 37:08

I mean, and huge commitment your own, huge it would be pretty easier to choose apart. Yes,

Vanessa Iloste 37:15

exactly. So it's, it's a very big, big journey for us, and I think with the skill conversation we are going

Chris Rainey 37:24

so you're going to link that back to the skills base. Is a skill

Vanessa Iloste 37:26

based organization. So we are going to open up conversations that are completely different compared to what they are incredible

Chris Rainey 37:33

to see of a company of your scale, with the various different business units and brands and the global reach, building a talent marketplace and skills based and weaving them into into these conversations was

Vanessa Iloste 37:48

incredible. The possibilities are infinite, yeah, because we are going to be able to tap into all of that talent, yeah, into all the talent of

Chris Rainey 37:56

the group, especially if you integrate AI and skills inference, like the ability to infer skills through looking at what people put in there exactly, to identify people that you never, maybe even have thought of exactly before. And people don't, they feel really empowered, empowered to not to your point in the beginning, they're not going to be like, it's my manager's job. Yes,

Vanessa Iloste 38:16

it's my job, it's my job. It's my job. I'm in the driving seat, and I'm the one actually building my own, my own future. Yeah. So this is really and this is also very important for for the business, because we are going to be able to look at manpower planning differently, capabilities mapping differently. So this is going to be very, very powerful, exciting,

Chris Rainey 38:34

if anything. Okay. How many hawks you done now?

Vanessa Iloste 38:39

28 episodes. What

Chris Rainey 38:41

would you say the biggest lesson that you've learned from all of those episodes?

Vanessa Iloste 38:46

There are many lessons I've learned. I think what I've learned is the truth is out there. It's fascinating. And you were talking about how much you learn when you interview people, I came back with this feeling that if I have a question, I mean, of course, there is now a lot of AI support, but to be very honest, the truth is out there, there must be someone in my community, as a practitioner or as an academic who must already Have some elements of answers that can help me. And it made me feel so strong and so powerful, because all of a sudden you realize how much you can leverage your network, how much you can leverage the knowledge of others and and you do it, and people are super happy to share they It's incredible how much people want to, want to help funds

Chris Rainey 39:42

all the time. Like people are so, like, reluctant to reach out because they're worried about, you know, someone may not reply, etc, but most people really want to do that. Like, I wouldn't have a this whole entire company of mine wouldn't exist. HR, leaders is built on people like you giving back to. Community and sharing your experience. That's the same for our events, for the podcasts, for the summits, every part of what we do is because we have an incredible community of people that want to rise together and help each other. To your point, I never would have thought that you know, growing going into this and more and more, I'm surprised every day more and more wider generosity and as how people want to help each other they want, but you do have to take the time to reach out to each other. A lot of people, I don't have time, but you do have time. Make time. You find the time. Find the time.

Vanessa Iloste 40:34

You find the time. Yeah, if I find the time to do a podcast, yeah, if I find the time to come to see Chris, yeah. I mean, then anyone, anyone has the time, it's you decide for yourself, but once you have done it, you realize, I mean, you, I mean, I am very happy to have this conversation with you today, and I'm feeling enlightened by it. And I'm sure, you know the I mean, and someone else will be in my seat and will feel exactly the same. So that's

Chris Rainey 40:59

what, that's literally what it's all about. Before I let you go parting piece of advice for everyone, and then also, where can they connect with you and check out the podcast?

Vanessa Iloste 41:09

Yeah, for sure. So I mean, first and foremost, anyone who is listening, can you please give me a favor and organize this career conversation you deserve? So you deserve a career conversation. Whoever you are listening to us, make sure that within the next 30 days you have a conversation that is in line with your aspiration, is in line with your ambition. I would love you to start this journey I'm on LinkedIn. So anyone who wants to talk to me, feel free to send me an invite and carry a transition with Van is a Tio on on all the platforms of podcast, we continue the journey with Vanessa. She's my she's my North Star, she's my pillar, she's my good friend. She's my partner in crime and and I love, I love doing this podcast with her

Chris Rainey 42:01

amazing No, and I love it. I'm so happy that you're on your you're both living internally and externally as well. And I can obviously everyone listening can feel the passion that you have for what you do as always. Everyone listening, all of those links will be below, or the link to the podcast, link to the profile on LinkedIn. All of the stuff will be there. Have you created a career framework that you shared for free?

Vanessa Iloste 42:26

I can share on LinkedIn. No problem. You should and

Chris Rainey 42:29

like and if, I mean, I just think it'd be an incredible resource for your listeners. Yes, you haven't already done that. I'm sure you've already thought about,

Vanessa Iloste 42:35

of course, I have done a couple of times, but feel free to reach out. I'm happy to share, yeah,

Chris Rainey 42:38

like, I mean, that'd be cool to as a little you know, something basic for people to get started, right? Sometimes a harder thing is just to start. Just start as well. So apart from that, I wish all the best and have Thank you, safe trip back.

Vanessa Iloste 42:50

Thank you, Chris, thank you for welcoming me here. It was a pleasure to meet you.

Chris Rainey 42:54

There we go. That was amazing.

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