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In today's episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, Tom Verboven, Senior Director at Mercer Talent Enterprise, shares his journey from aspiring basketball player to leading HR consultant. He delves into the importance of a digital-first mindset for HR leaders and the complexities they face in today's rapidly changing landscape.

Tom discusses how to develop leadership qualities, the difference between complex and complicated problems, and the significance of organizational culture in executive selection. He also highlights the evolving needs of HR executives in the digital age.

🎓 In this episode, Tom discusses:

1. How to cultivate a digital-first mindset in HR

2. Strategies for assessing and developing leadership qualities

3. The evolving role of HR leaders in a complex business environment

4. The critical importance of organizational culture in executive selection

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Tom Verboven 0:00

People expect a lot from leaders and they also you can't have it all that also the collective leadership strength is very interesting. Because if you will also be much more focused on that operational excellence, you also have problems.

Chris Rainey 0:21

Tom, welcome to the show. How are you my friend?

Tom Verboven 0:22

I'm very good, very excited to be here. Thank you so much my

Chris Rainey 0:27

say after 800 episodes, you have the most impressive chair, that I feel like I'm on your game show.

Tom Verboven 0:36

The other way around. I want to impress people with my chair.

Chris Rainey 0:41

Yeah, love it. So we just end the interview there. Let's leave it at that. Before we jump in, tell everyone a little bit more about you personally, and your journey and the role that you're in now at that.

Tom Verboven 0:55

So my journey, so I'm a Belgium origins. My ambition was I wanted to be a professional basketball player. That was my passion. I still watch basketball now. So every day I get up in the morning, the

Chris Rainey 1:15

first thing I do is watch the NBA highlights from the day before the highlights

Tom Verboven 1:19

from the day before. So this is exciting time because these are playoffs day. So that was my first and that clearly didn't work out, otherwise I wouldn't be here. And so I studied sociology, the first 10 years of my career was a bit like trial and error. I did some work in the academic sphere. I thought that not for me, it's too specialized to then I move to executive search felt that wasn't for me, I worked for IBM internal HR roles. I thought that wasn't for me. And then I discovered the world of consultancy. And I felt that that's much more, that's much more bigger. So I started at almost 1010 years a decade. In ubix. It's cubics, which is ology. Now, I'm not sure if you're familiar, it's like in a psychometric assessment company, UK based, but an international dimension for 10 years. And then I almost worked in the US for PwC different roles at a state in New York for two years. And then the managing director of the human capital division. And then I felt like I was I needed, I needed an adventure. So I moved. Quite recently, I moved to Dubai. To work for Mercer. And my role basically here is setting up the like the executive leadership assessment bark of Mercer might need a bit of explanation whether it exactly means but again.

Chris Rainey 3:11

Exactly. Well, thanks for sharing your story. I grew up wanting to be a professional ice hockey player. Really write I've played, I played ice hockey. But it's just not big in Europe. And in the UK, or especially, especially in the UK. So I realized that once I can't make a living, playing it, then I stopped. Yeah, so and I also know how it feels to either stay up very late to watch. Or watch the highlights the next day. And that's my co founder, Shane also played professional ice hockey. We grew up together, so I kind of understanding from a different lens, you're a basketball, but we have that. So well. Well, that was a lot of information in one go there. You know, I would say like, what were some of the learnings that you took from your experience as a practitioner that have helped you the most would you say in the consulting world? Because there's, there's, you know, you've lived both sides. You know, and I think there's a lot of shared knowledge and skills and experience that can really help people right.

Tom Verboven 4:25

Yeah, I agree you're so you learn a lot from being inside a company before coming a consultant. On the other hand, I do feel there's a lot of parallel because also had an internal HR position. It do also do consulting business and not around people in organization topics. So I don't try to make a difference where I feel like that same thing, but from a different perspective. You have internal clients, we have external clients, but it's fair you So I think I can only encourage people to, to see both sides of the spectrum.

Chris Rainey 5:07

Yeah, the reason I say that is many successful HR leaders I speak to, they have had the journey like you where they've gone in and outside. And they always tell me that they're having the perspective of working on both. It has been something that's really helped shape them as a leader in the work that they do they have much more appreciation for the work that happens. From the work that happens on both sides.

Tom Verboven 5:33

Yeah, most of all, they started in consultancy, yes, in the Big Four or HR consultancies. And, and then they go to the internal most of the time I did the other way. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 5:45

It's interesting, because a lot of the CHR O is at the end of their career, then go into consign. Oh, god. Yeah. Right. So it's like their retirement plan. I wouldn't say retirement plan. But you know what I mean? Like, they kind of like I always see to shift whenever someone said, Hey, Chris, I'm like, you know, I'm retiring, then I then I, I turn on LinkedIn. And then I see director, one of the big four. Because I have companies I'm like, Oh, okay. Interesting. So tell us more. Obviously, you've moved to Dubai, which is pretty cool. Also a massively growing market. For everyone, right. Very exciting times. Huge, huge opportunity. I'm seeing in good time to be here. Yeah, great time to be me that tell us more about the work that you're doing? And yeah, in focus.

Tom Verboven 6:39

So my main focus is like around leadership, trying to understand what is good leadership, how to assess leaders to select them below them. How do we develop leaders playing the visual level, but also on a deeper level and even on organization? If so, that's, that's, that's what keeps me busy. That's what reflecting help us that that's my passion. very concretely, I'm building an A, actually, we doing already a lot of executive assessments, so like C suite level selection. But I'm building our global solution. Light, the way new stuff, exciting stuff.

Chris Rainey 7:24

Yeah. Well, when you talk about executive assessment, so we obviously hear that a lot from partners, clients, etc. What makes what you do different to other assessments out there, or approaches that people are taking,

Tom Verboven 7:40

why you're better than

Chris Rainey 7:47

now, because you know, our audience, our senior HR executives, and the world's leading global brands, right, they work, for many of them are already clients of yours. So I want to understand based on your research, what you're seeing now, you know, again, what leaders look like, when I started my career, versus now very different, the type of competencies, the skills shifting, so I'd love to get your in as someone who's so close to it, I'd love to see or hear about more about what you're seeing. And obviously, I'm sure that's gonna be reflected in your offering.

Tom Verboven 8:26

I will do a sales pitch. Yeah. Yeah. But what I mean, the goal of things to, to say around executive assess, I think the first is a lot of looking at, we need to do an SS post. But if that's only part of making a successful selection of a new C suite, executive profile, you need to look at what do you need? Yeah, and that needs because not it's no longer the job of the board members to select the new CEOs, CFO, CHRO, etc. And that needs a very, it's it sounds so normal, but it's actually super important to have a serious, serious conversation. What what do you need? So I told you, I worked for IBM at a certain point, IBM was only really that back in the 90s. Sorry. And that was a time of color. But when we said we, we don't need a technology guy, or woman. We need someone with customer focus, execution capability, business acumen. And that generated a big discussion and finally they decided we don't need technology. We need a and they chose Lou Gerstner. Those links about what he brought the company from 8 billion loss to 3 billion Prophet did a very quick that. So selecting what is the success profile is very, that's one. Secondly, a very clear process that is owned by us and get rid of all the noise. I think we familiar with bias, but noises. If you're familiar with the work of Daniel, it's as if with my sports team wins, and I need to select someone that I'm influencing, or the other way around. So that's the noise. So you have to think about the process. Also make sure that every night that you have the assessment, and you have to post work, that means only one out of five executive assessment selections fail, or are successful, whatever you're going to do. So it's like a flip of a coin. So within 18 months, one out of two executives leave the company. So bad selection. So you need to do some individual coaching, the coaching. Because it's I mean, people underestimate, but it's, it's, it's it's our job be be an executives and it's, I mean, it's not easy. So both from an organizational point, what is the support as from, from the leader itself? So that's what so you need an integrated approach to executive assessment. I think that's, that's very important. The second one is, okay, what kind of problems are the leaders? What are they focusing this problem? So you need to understand that while you see a difference, in needs a bit of explanation is that they are confronted with complex problems, which is different for complicated and it's an important in your walls to stop me Okay, clean.

Chris Rainey 11:52

Yeah, I would love to please make a difference. Yeah, please break that down. The differences are complex and complicated,

Tom Verboven 12:00

can be super complicated in the sense then a car, you drive your car, it breaks, you go to the garage, they disassemble, they put the new stuff, and they reassemble and Off, off you go. You know, a car can be super complicated. So you need engineers to understand. But still, it's predictable. It's solvable. While the problems, executives or directors are not going to get there, don't blame me. They're also we will post AI is also verbal, or are all solvable, and it has an impact on their supply chain, etc. So there's a lot of what we call complex or wicked problems that they have to deal with. And if you're, as a leader still think in complicated problems that you set up for failure. So you need a paradigm leadership paradigm that can help leaders to solve this complex problem. And then we look into if I go to theoretic, just stop eckroth planner looking in the capability to navigate extremes or as what we call paradoxical thinking, from empowering people to be in directive from having a strong opinion, to finding Win Win solutions. And there's even a lot of theory about this paradoxical leadership theory. And it's not new. So it started at Lego in the 80s. But more and more research is done. And there are some findings.

Chris Rainey 13:45

Is that is that the Trump paradoxical leadership? Is that the terminology?

Tom Verboven 13:48

So call it versatility, leadership, different twirling, but it's called paradox theory. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 14:00

Yeah. So

Tom Verboven 14:01

that's important. So you need to understand, you need to understand, if you back, assess execs that they have that paradoxical mindset to be successful. So that's the thing that's really to understand whether the problems they face, it's complex. So you need to be able to switch. There's even brick like, you know, there's in neuroscience is also pretty high. But there are some authors who research the brain. And so there are leaders who can switch quickly from one end to another, are the most successful, and it's important, so it's not, it's not being mediocre, so it's not being a bit empathic or being a bit directive. It's fully embrace. Being empathic, it's fully embracing being directed. So I love that. So that's the tear when you're very passionate

Chris Rainey 14:55

about Yeah, as a founder of a business and on multiple businesses, I can relate As a CEO like of having to be pulled between the two, and it's so tough to do that. And I've already learned something from this episode, I think it's really important. I think the different difference between complicated and complex is never something I really thought about until you just explained it in a very clearly clear way, by the way. Thank you. And I do think I'm spending too much time on the complicated versus too complex. Yeah. And I need to delegate more. Because you're right, the engines broken, we know how to fix it that it's complicated, but doesn't shouldn't require Chris. I think I should be focusing my time on the complex as well, and I'm going to have a chat with a team after because I think you just opened I opened up some windows for me. Delegate more work? I do. I do. And I think I think that yeah, I just haven't really had the words to express it. You just gave me the language to have the conversation. So this is something I've been thinking for a while. But sometimes it's difficult to have the conversation until you have the language and you just you just gave me the language to be able to do that. And URI. I am focused mainly right now on of course AI. As my as my complex. We we just launched the world's first AI copilot for HR executives, we launched it three weeks ago. And I was working on that for around two and a half years. as well. So last year. Can you hear me? Sorry, back? Yeah, no worries. I'm saying, you know, for me, I've spent the last two and a half years building our AI copilot, we built the world's first AI copilot for HR executives to upskill and rescale HR executives using our copilot. So it's trained on you know, 10,000 hours of content, our podcasts or webinars or workshops or events, as well as our integrations with our partners like McKinsey, Boston Consulting, Harvard Business School, Harvard Business Review, and our expert coaches like Marshall Goldsmith, and Dave Warwick. And so we've trained all of that, that model on all of their content, to give instant answers to any HR question. And then, of course, the integrations with all of their hate tests. I hate the HR technology that integrates and brings their own content into the platform. But that was a very complex for me, and we failed many, many times. That's typical for complex. Yeah, we try to stop it's not linear. Yeah, exactly. It's a journey, not a destination. Like, we tried to build the first model before open AI even existed, and spent a lot of money and got nowhere as well, because we were too ahead of we, because my goal was like, Hey, we have all of this information. That's not the challenge. Everyone has access to information. The challenge is how do we provide insights in the flow of work, and help free up time for those leaders and managers and give them the tools that they need using AI? And for me, that was the mechanism I could see as the delivery tool, and now everyone's talking about it as a tool, but it allowed us to be the first to market because I was focusing on that three years plus ago before it was mainstream. Like Like now so I love that, um, in terms of the you mentioned earlier, like, which was quite a shocking stat that you know, wanting to have those leaders leave or fail as it were, whatever words you want to use, what were the things that you've identified as the obviously the reasons that was I'm sure you've tracked this, this visa, Visa the visa the things the top reasons that they have or or they fail what what are some of those?

Tom Verboven 19:13

There are many, of course, but one that jumps to my mind is even an example. Are you familiar with a bullying data structure of so bullying, recruited? Can you see

Chris Rainey 19:31

why do you know sorry, Boeing? Yeah, yeah, sorry. Sorry for my fine. sorry for misunderstanding. Of course, I know. So, Mike, my co founder of Atlas the copilot. Guillermo is the former chief learning officer of Boeing. So yeah, carry the Carry on, carry on because it's a good example for everyone listening.

Tom Verboven 19:58

So They hired a guy called Calhoun, new CEO coming from Gen X, probably he's a really good executive outside, it's not that bad. But he came in and he didn't really, I mean, first of all, he wasn't an engineer, which was also a bit of not, I mean, I was already salting. But what he didn't do, he didn't embrace the safety, first quality culture at the company. And of course, if something happens with an airplane, it, you lose your reputation. So they calculate, so they lost 40% of their shares, since he came in, which is kind of like I don't know exactly when he 4 billion or so I mean, huge loss because they selected the wrong. And it's not that you always have to have this cultural fit. That's not the point. But there's so three values that you do need to embrace. So this the organizational context, and assessing for organization context is, for me, a very important. Very important element, don't say that there are many others. But that that's

Chris Rainey 21:16

what I love that because, and what the story behind that, obviously, is a wanting to get the plane to market before their competition, right? And ignore the health and safety, Paul aspects of their cultural values, it doesn't matter, we need to win business, revenue at all costs, we need to build the plane and get it don't worry about the safety, safety. We need to get out. I think everyone knows what happened. Short term, thinking short term, and in actually cost them as you said, you know, more than they would have gained by doing that. And, and I see that happen a lot where even CFOs who go into businesses, who the ones that are successful, probably spend the first year just building relationships with leaders, understanding the culture really embedding themselves in the organization, before making any meaningful change. Right. And the ones that fail are the ones that come in, and immediately try and change things up. Because they we need to make a change and ignore everything you've just mentioned.

Tom Verboven 22:34

Yeah, exactly. And, of course, you cannot underestimate, there's also a lot of pressure of the new person coming in, of course, to the making difference. So you need to be strong to take your year one year of, of observing and understanding.

Chris Rainey 22:49

Yeah, but that's,

Tom Verboven 22:51

that's definitely the pressure to have, like quick wins, it's, it's super high.

Chris Rainey 22:58

You got to have like, exactly have to deliver on the day to days whilst also having a heading. In the future. It's like

is it because my co founder, Shane and I, we kind of, we kind of separate that in a way where he's, as a founder is more focused in the now and the delivery of our product. And making sure we have customer success, customer delight with the work that we do. And I'm kind of always with my head in the future. And we come together and talk every week to share each other's feedback. But that's always been worked well for us because we're grounded in delivering excellence in our work now. But we're never disrupted. Because I'm always looking. I'm always trying to break things intentionally, and constantly trying to challenge the status quo and disrupt ourselves. And I think that's been why we've been successful so far.

Tom Verboven 24:09

That's also an interesting board, because we look a bit too much at in the future leadership, while again, this complexity, this paradoxes embracing both ends, you have to look at it, you cannot, I mean, people expect a lot from leaders and then also human, so you cannot have you cannot have adult. So the alternative collective leadership straight is is very interesting, because if you will also be much more focused on all that operational excellence, you also have a problem. So yeah,

Chris Rainey 24:45

I'm seeing a lot of companies now focus more than I've ever heard on the sort of team coaching as opposed to rightfully so. Yeah, I'm seeing more and more now focus even the companies that we work with as partners slike ASAP and better up and be Marie etc. There's a real first for the team coaching beyond the just the individual executive coaching. And it makes sense based on what you just said everyone has a different strengths or weaknesses. And in once you recognize those, it becomes really exciting. And Shane and I have done that we understand where our strengths and weaknesses are. And we we only spend our time and energy on the areas where we can have the most impact on the business. And that means sometimes I'm stepping away, stepping away from the current to look into the future to make sure the business is going to be prepared. For Where are we going? What, what are the main competencies that you're seeing now that a leader needs to be successful in this current disruptive landscape where there's so many external factors also facing us politically? You know, like there's this, you know, this is so much, you know, pandemics. Exactly. What are some of the skills or competencies you're seeing that you need to you need to have to be successful as a leader?

Tom Verboven 26:13

Yeah, good question. Things that come to mind is like ecosystem thinking, in the sense that there's so many stakeholders involved internally, but also externally. So it's not enough anymore that you think profit, you have to the community planet, sustainability. So that means this brother thinking that just like, get our profit, I mean, which is still important, clearly, but it's, it's that stakeholder. It's gonna be more important. Yeah, that's that's one that costs got to do. Like,

Chris Rainey 26:55

I've never heard that before. Sorry. No, no, like, super interesting.

Tom Verboven 27:04

Words here. No, I

Chris Rainey 27:05

love that. Like, I speak to coaches and leaders every day. And no one's ever said to me, ecosystem thinking. But it makes so much sense, like, in terms of, like you said, trying to juggle the internal or the external. Sure. Shareholders like this. Community Exactly. A sustainability. Like you said, I just so many factors now, like maybe there was one or two of those in traditional leadership, when I was 20 years ago, when I started this, and now you have to manage all of those at the same time, so I love that ecosystem thinking. That's great.

Tom Verboven 27:45

So that's one. Another one that I'm still struggling with, is the digital first mindset. Because in one way, digital transformation is important. I fully agree. The question is, at that level, is it more about the innovation and making sure that, that you create a climate where people innovate digital? Or do you need to be digital yourself? I'm not sure what that is to be honest. discussion, but you

Chris Rainey 28:19

don't have to be the expert, but you have to have enough in order to make an informed decision and delegate? Like, I mean, I yeah, like I do, I think maybe people take it misconceive it but that they need to be an expert, and upskill themselves to be digitally capable. I don't think everyone has to be, I think you just need to know enough as a leader to be able to have a conversation or at the very minimum user, surround yourself with those people with that knowledge and experience. And, and lead and lead with that humility. To to you know, I was interviewing Legos chief HR officer a few weeks, few months ago. And sorry, a year ago now, sorry. And he I said to him, Lauren, you've never worked a day in HR before because he was in operations and sales before and then it became he wasn't legal. Yes, yes.

Tom Verboven 29:16

But that's because Leo was the first company to start with paradoxes back in

Chris Rainey 29:21

the 80s. Oh, really? Interesting. paradoxes

Tom Verboven 29:24

in the team here.

Chris Rainey 29:25

Yeah, it was it was a they said they hired a Chief People Officer does never done HR before. And I asked Lauren, and I said, How do you keep up with all of the technical side? And he said, I don't need to, because I have my team. So you know, it's the same does he need to know all the technical digital elements of order the products and solutions know, he surrounds himself with the team? He needs to know enough? But not all of it? What do you think what What does it mean to you? If someone says like, what does it mean to be digital first leader? How would you describe that? What does it mean to be a digital first leader?

Tom Verboven 30:12

It's more like thinking opportunities, thinking, what can we do differently? It's like sitting the beginning of elected challenge the status quo. It's, it's that kind of thinking, rather than looking at opportunities, I

Chris Rainey 30:32

think nothing's changed. But the mediums changed. And a new medium is digital. So I think the thinking into decision making around it to your point is, is the same. But now the new medium is technology is AI, is etc. But the way in which you make decisions around that doesn't change because of the technology that's ever made sense. That's kind of the way I look at it. Yeah. And we've and that's kind of continued to evolve. You know, it happens with the Internet. Right. And now I say, I happen to social media. Everyone needs to know about social media, right? And all of the businesses like we need to know social media marketing, right? So it was there's always going to be this evolution of disruption. But I think the way in which you make decisions, and the way you think about it, that's not going to change as much as Yeah, what a really random question, but what are some of the common misconceptions that you hear about assessments?

Tom Verboven 31:48

There's a lot, so there's a lot of negative connotation with?

Chris Rainey 31:50

Yes. So that's why I'm asking.

Tom Verboven 31:56

There's a lot of so if you talk to the like, like, buy something software, it's like, so there are a lot of misconceptions. Sometimes it's a more us there's like, sometimes it's a religion, you know, like, we do, like, if you talk about this psychometric tool, it's like, a, like a worship. So for me, it is clearly not as long as it's reliable, valid. It's a tool to have discussion. So I think that's important. So a lot of misconception is around, let's manipulate the tool and are you can manage the lead assessments? I think, for me, it's important. And what makes a strong assessment is that you have different data points. So it's not only a psychometric tool, but you do other stuff, just to have a more rounded view on on people, but there's a lot of negativity wrapped around it. Yeah, definitely. That sometimes rightfully so because it's, it's sometimes also used in a totally wrong.

Chris Rainey 33:06

Yeah. Wait, because one of the things we're doing outside of HR, the what we do we we also have a executive search site that we do. Yeah. And we don't isn't really a huge part of what we do business. But because we have such a large global network of, you know, 200 200,000 plus HR executives, we know how we make sure we know what we know. Yeah, I have to get two reactions from ch rose, when they reached out to me, either for their own role that they're looking for role as a CFO or a CEO reaches out to me, saying they're looking for your CFO that either fully bought into assessments, or they're fully against. There's no middle ground, because we don't want to do that. Like they have a very like, No, we don't know waste of time, waste of money, we don't do it, or we have to do an assessment is essential. And I like it, it's always surprised me, I'm like, There's no one extreme audio.

Tom Verboven 34:06

That's very true. But what, for me, what is important is that we always say we want to have a red carpet treatment towards candidate and that means you treat him very open you this you still have the discussions, the interaction that's important. And you give them a lot of feedback. So even if they're not selected, they get something out of it. And that's for me, very, very important. And a lot of these black and white is also because some of them really bad experience, but really bad experience. Back then they spent the whole day and then don't get any feedback then in the dark and prove what data well or so. Yeah, not all our competitors are are.

Chris Rainey 34:51

That makes sense. They've gone through that process, because they've basically done all of that work. And then I'm not even given the gift of feed we

Tom Verboven 35:04

know exactly the gift of feedback. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 35:07

I would be pretty frustrated, too frustrated? Oh, that's fair. That's fair. What are you? What are you most excited about, obviously, the new opportunity. But in terms of the work that you're doing, in terms of the specific work you're doing, and everything we kind of discussed, what are the things that you're most excited about that you're focused on?

Tom Verboven 35:32

I'm super excited about a whole new offering, also recreating also paradoxical psychometric tools. So that's what we work

Chris Rainey 35:39

on. I'd love to see that. Yeah. Cool. Yeah.

Tom Verboven 35:42

That's like, super interesting. So very excited about that. Very excited about the Yeah, bring it global, sort of working with Asia, Latin America, Middle East. Very excited about that. I'm also pretty new in so I worked here before in the region. But for me, it's also alert learning to deal with working on Saturday knows some exciting stuff. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 36:14

Well, given given all of the we've been like, firstly, thank you for sharing all of those. You kind of I've learned, I've learned a lot today on the podcast let listeners as well, I've got a lot to think about now. It's a tough time for leaders, right? There is like, I don't think it's ever been the most I don't know, every everyone, every era has its own challenges. But I feel like now, like you mentioned with the ecosystem of tough challenges, that I feel like maybe that's the first time in history where we actually having to deal with so many different external factors, as well. What advice would you give to leaders? Who are obviously going through a tough time right now, including HR executives, because the landscape of HR talking about needing to become digital first. Like is the like, you know, the evolving role of HR executive, they're constantly having to do disrupt themselves, and upskill and rescale themselves. So what advice would you would you give to them?

Tom Verboven 37:26

Alright, I don't think it's original as always, look at the mirror, look at yourself, create that self awareness constantly. Ask for feedback, because at a certain level, the problem sometimes is Chris, you don't get any feedback. No, it doesn't come to you. And then you you don't know what you're doing. Right or wrong, asked her health. I mean, I think that's also sometimes because they expect to be strong. I mean, ask for help, you know, you're human, you're not a robot. Put yourself out there verbal, you know, do any harm. I mean, don't get old, do it. That might suck credibility, but just ask her out, put yourself out there. Be real. And, and

Chris Rainey 38:17

I love that. Like, I asked one of the teachers who are attending our who's been to four of our events recently, why do you keep coming. And she said to me, is because it's the only place I get honest feedback. Because internally as a CH, Ro, she's not getting that feedback. And part of that is that she's not asking for it. And also, are you creating the environment where people feel safe, to get their feet wet? So I think she was very open to that part. But at our events, that obviously he was very happy to say, we completely disagree. This is our view and perspective, right. And that's kind of one. That's why we create a safe environment to have those conversations. And I love your point about the reflection. The self awareness piece, is one of the most important things. I'd had this conversation with Shane, recently, my co founder around any of the successful leaders or just people in general that we meet. That's one of the highest skills that they have is they're very good at self reflection. And then knowing when to say I'm wrong, or I've made a mistake.

Tom Verboven 39:33

And I'm so I'm so happy you mentioned that. So I do assess. I mean, I don't I don't know how many assessments I did. The one thing is self awareness, self criticism, if you don't happen to get back to Yeah, I mean, you're not ready to grow. You're not ready for the next step, man. That's that's the fundament.

Chris Rainey 39:58

Yeah, it's hard to It has to be honest, though, it's really hard like to remove your ego and to not take it personal and to not attach your self worth to the role, or was that some people would stay wrapped up so tightly with it, they can't separate that and look in the mirror to your point of view that it's really difficult to. If they can't, they just can't look in the mirror, because they don't want to do that. And I've experienced that too. And, and it's not always great to hear the feedback, but it's so valuable. It's hard to hear, as

Tom Verboven 40:45

I think maybe the last one is, like carve out time to do that self reflection. So busy like me. So yeah, constantly calling,

Chris Rainey 40:55

that's a good point, you, this isn't something that just happens, you have to be intentional about making that we we book out most Wednesdays, and I don't have any meetings on that day. And then most of the time, I will basically grab a couple of hours, or at least an hour to reflect. And if I didn't purposely do that, I just wouldn't do it. I would have another meeting I'd have another call whatever I'm having. And it just

Tom Verboven 41:29

it was your creativity as well. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 41:31

I have a list of questions. I have an Excel spreadsheet, really old school. And something I learned from Marshall Goldsmith. And it's a list of questions that I look at the end of each day. And it says things like, Did I do my best to show up for

Tom Verboven 41:50

Direct reader, there is a book that he wrote, did

Chris Rainey 41:53

I do my best to be short for my daughter? Did I did I do my best to take care of my mental health. And I just gave myself a little tip. And it's such a simple. Let's just say Excel like with like some with questions and markers. And then you can see because you put colors. If I have a red week, I can see I didn't do great that week, and then I can see all yellow. And I mean, it's just something as a self reflection, too. Did I do my best to give myself grace to show myself Grace today? And not give myself a hard time? Just like those simple questions. That takes five minutes to read and do is such an amazing way to end your day. And then and then you just kind of reflect and say, Okay, I can see for four days in a row. I didn't go to the gym. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And you can, you can just very simply take action on that as well. And you can add whatever questions you want to check in their personal professional, as well. But listen, wait, before I let you go, Tom, where can people reach you? If they want to reach out and say Hi. Where's the best place to reach you? LinkedIn? LinkedIn, perfect. And is there a specific link a website landing page for the new business? Sure. Soon okay. You leave. Leave us the suspense. All right. Well, when you do have that, I will put it in the show notes. So everyone listening right now. Excellent. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. So there'll be a link to connect with Tom in the chat in the in the description wherever platform you're listening, there'll be in the description. And then we'll also add a link to the website but it's good again to know you appreciate you come on the show and hopefully I can come visit you and say hi.

Tom Verboven 43:58

You most welcome. It's a bit hot now. So we more than welcome. Let me know if you're around all

Chris Rainey 44:09

the best. It was

Tom Verboven 44:11

a pleasure. Thank you. Good conversation.

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