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In today's episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we are joined by Paula Allen, Senior Vice President of Research, Analytics, and Innovation at TELUS Health.

Paula shares her journey from starting as a clinician to becoming a pivotal leader in corporate mental health advocacy. She discusses the evolving landscape of mental health, the impact of societal changes, and the importance of integrating mental health support into various facets of life.

🎓 In this episode, Paula discusses:

- The shift from reactive to proactive mental health support

- The impact of loneliness and societal trends towards isolation

- Potential effects of AI on mental health and the need to manage rapid change

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Paula Allen 0:00

Mental health is actually fairly different. Right now we're living in a different society, there are a fair number of strains, the pace of change is tremendous. We're more isolated than we were before. Like, we can't just wait for somebody to have an issue and then respond to it. Like that sort of never did make sense. But that's where it was before. We really need to build mental health into the systems that are supports the things that build resilience, and you know, getting rid of the stigma that you had mentioned before integrating that into schools, integrating that into workplaces, integrating that into society.

Chris Rainey 0:45

Paula, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm great to be here. Nice to see you. Again. I can't believe we waited so long, like we were like last year, and here we are now. So most of what you've been up to.

Paula Allen 0:57

Oh. So quickly, it's it's I've been eating, I've been drinking sleep, friends, to doing the basics.

Chris Rainey 1:09

Yeah.

I know, seriously. Tell me a little bit more about yourself personally, and your journey to the role you're in now and also a little bit about the role, because you have a very unique, interesting role, which I want to elaborate on.

Paula Allen 1:22

Yeah, well, I think it's interesting. I think I'm very fortunate, I had a varied background. So I started off as a clinician actually intended to work with children for my entire career at what I was doing, so I loved doing so. But as the universe takes us in different places, sometimes I started working in the corporate environment, and really saw some interesting things. Remember, this was like, several years ago, and I was appalled, I was absolutely appalled. Because I worked with people who are going on disability. So I saw how people were excluded, you know, they were left on their own, they were vilified and situations are very little help support or anything that we would have done in my in my life with children was translating into how we dealt with adults. So I became a bit of a Crusader and then had the opportunity to do so worked in an organization where we revamped how we manage disability and have been going upstream ever since. So you consulting to manage your training,

you know, basic product development, but always had a research focus. And that's where I'm focused exclusively now. So work with some data scientists works with some researchers. And what we do is we look at where health is going, particularly in the workplace population, and focus a lot on mental health, and what does and does not work. So it's really an interesting area for me, and hopefully, I can share some of the findings that we have. Yeah. Do you want to tell everyone a little bit about herself if they're not aware of it, as well? Yeah, well, TELUS health is also a bit of a crusading organization, our CEO Darren and whistle you know, we had a very, very successful business and telecommunications but a very strong social purpose. And when we were looking to branch off into different areas, two big areas came up you know, dressing food and addressing health so there's actually a TELUS agriculture business

health Yeah.

Chris Rainey 3:33

whatsoever and I know a lot about I got I had no idea. Okay.

Paula Allen 3:37

Wow, it looks like really though the food chain. And because when you think about it, you're never gonna have a good quality of life on last food is more accessible, it's safe, it's sustainably created. So we have a business that actually focuses very specifically on using technology and, and really good thinking in terms of making that happen. And same for about for health. I mean, we are in 160 different countries, we have a very, very strong presence in mental health because there is no health without mental health. But we also focus on other areas, you know, all the things that really make a difference, physician support pharmacy, all of that disability management, we're still in that business making a difference. And you know, very proud to be part of the company and really kind of raising the boat not just accepting and dealing with the way things are but making people healthier and when they're not healthy, helping them get back to health as quickly as possible. Amazing. You know, for my last conversation, mental health is close to my heart as someone who struggles continuously even to this day, and and I suffered in silence for 15 years of hiding it from everyone and having constantly having panic attacks. thinking I'm having a heart attack. You know what I had no idea it was happening to me and not being

Chris Rainey 5:00

I'm

being afraid to share and be vulnerable.

along that journey, and I know something you said, from our last conversation, you said that when it comes to mental health support for employees, it needs to look different now than it did before. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Paula Allen 5:18

Yeah, a couple of reasons. Before it was very reactive, you know, somebody had a mental health issue, and you wanted to make sure that they had benefits and supports to sort of deal with whatever the crisis is, and, you know, sort of patch people, people up. And you know, we still need reactive services. But, you know, our mental health is actually fairly different. Right now we're living in a different society, there are a fair number of strains, the pace of change is, is tremendous. We're more isolated than we were before. Like, we can't just wait for somebody to have an issue and then respond to it. Like that sort of never did make sense. But that's where it was before. We really need to build mental health into the systems that are supports the things that build resilience, you know, getting rid of the stigma that you had mentioned before, integrating that into schools, integrating that into workplaces, integrating that into society. Because if we don't, we're really going to be at a bit of a bad place, because there are more mental health challenges now than there were before for very good reasons. And we just can't accept that, especially when it's not necessary. We can do things to to change it. Yeah. So a great day is

Chris Rainey 6:40

starting to also show up in schools. Like I mentioned, I did a little video with my five year old daughter, we did a little podcast the other day, because he was like you promised you do a podcast with me. And it's got like, 25,000 views on LinkedIn. And she said to me, I also you know, what she's been up to, and she was like, we learned about loneliness in school to school last week.

And she was like, as like, you know, how do you know? And she mentioned one of her friends. And I was like, How did you know she was lonely. And she's like, because we learn about loneliness, I could recognize it because she was sad. And this is what I did to help her. And I'm like, You're five.

And, and you're already, you know, a lot of our leaders can learn from listening to something like that right now. As long as I was really happy to hear us, I had no idea that that she was nothing about those things at school.

And some of our younger individuals are facing very specific additional risks. Can you talk about those as well? Yeah, well, only this is one of them, actually. I mean, when you when?

Paula Allen 7:44

Well, actually, let me just take a bit of a step back, the World Health Organization came out with a really strong communication, as well as the intention to develop a forum to deal with loneliness as a health issue. It's a global health health issue. And a lot of people say, Well, was it caused by the pandemic? Well, no, we had been actually trending this way for quite some time. And it made it a little bit worse, sort of accelerated that negative trend. But as, as we sort of, you know,

as we moved in society, to enable people to be by themselves and enable them to sort of, you know, live work, eat, play, you know, be very, very effective. And many, many sort of basic areas. without other people like, we're not building barns together as much as we used to. We allowed ourselves to get into this sort of place where we were moving in very small increments towards being isolated. The thing is, if you really kind of look at what we value as a society, we actually started to value being by ourselves and being isolated a little bit more about by that I mean, when you go into an airplane, you know, the ones that you pay the most money for the car,

or the isolated ones. If you're in a high end condo, what's a feature of a high end condo, a private elevator, up to see anybody else, you know, there's articles around you can you can live in New York City your entire life, and if you have a certain income, you don't necessarily need to even see another person or you have a small group of people. So, you know, we have been just going this way as a society. Problem is, problem is

when you're born into, like, we change so quickly, and the pace of change is happening so much. The world that you and I are born into is different than the world that our parents were born into is different than the world that your children are born into. And it has been impacting this negatively. So

Staying with the isolation. When we have social support, when we have connections when we have that sense of belonging, when it is really just a part of our experience in every area of life and everything that we do, our stress goes down, our stress goes down, we feel that we can cope with things more easily when we are part of a group, when we are isolated, even if there isn't any undue stress, just because of the way human beings are built, we were more on edge. So we've been fighting this in society a fair bit. So isolation, rapid pace of change, there's a number of things that have impacted younger cohorts a lot more than the cohorts before. And we're seeing it show up in higher mental health risk. Yeah, I've seen, I don't know if there's a correlation, but I've seen it happen with a couple of my personal friends who are living at home, obviously, surrounded by family and have moved out on their own.

Chris Rainey 11:01

And then become very isolated and suffer from loneliness. And because when you know, they go, they go to work all day, they go home to no one. They're there, you know, the boat, they used to the whole life, they were around the family environment. And I've seen it happen with quite a few different friends that they didn't, they were so excited to move out on their own.

Early on, and now they're kind of coming home to just a silent, you know, just No, no social interaction whatsoever, especially if then you're stressed on top of it, like you said, or you're anxious, and now you're, you know, completely isolated. I'm seeing I have a significant impact on some of my friends.

At the moment,

Paula Allen 11:43

and more people are living alone now than ever before, like it was it was fairly rare at one point. But now we have more of a population in North America living alone and living with other people. So you have that is someone's you know, choice or circumstance. But the thing that's non negotiable, is whatever your personal situation is, you still need those connections with other human beings. You can't really get away from it. Like you can't rewire the human brain to say that this is this is this is okay. And we've been we've been trying and it's been it's been failing. The other thing is that it's important to work as well, those because when you think about it, people often think well work is this thing that separate over here that well, no, it's a part of your life, the time, the hours, the experiences that you have, make, make, who you are, who you are. So we underestimate those connections. And it's not just about office workers going back to the office, the core thing is trust, because people can have a lot of social interactions. But if those interactions aren't trusted interactions, people who you know, have your back and you don't get that social support from people who you know, you can be yourself with, you know, people who, you know, you feel a sense of belonging when you're with them, then those social interactions mean, absolutely nothing.

There, maybe it's maybe I shouldn't say nothing. It might be window dressing and change of scenery or whatever, just to deal with another person. But it certainly doesn't address the issue of loneliness. Yeah, one of the challenges I'm hearing from Chief HR officers every day is they're struggling to create that sense of belonging in a hybrid, distributed work environment. Lots of hate, I'm sure that's something you and the team have looked into. Yeah, I would say start with thing again, focusing on a sense of trust. And that sense of belonging comes you know, as a as a result of that, like, when you think about it, there's certain things that actually build trust, like one of the things that builds trust is when you trust other people, you know, when you feel when somebody will ask you, let me put it another way to make the point. Have you ever trusted someone who made it clear that they don't trust you? Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, it is it is sort of important to show that that trust you know, give people stress responsibilities, give them you know, that that that freedom and and a sense of control over what they do ask opinions. You know, communication is really important. If you are with somebody, but you're not communicating openly, you're not communicating broadly, you're not communicating, like even frequency makes a difference. So some research that says that there's more trust between managers and employees when they're when they communicate daily. And you know, daily might not be possible, but frequently and truly is daily, all that impossible. It doesn't have to be a long conversation, just stick connection and support. You know, that's the other thing that's important. You know, people need to feel safe and they need to feel supported. So, allowing people to sort of be who they are, and say what they need to say. And when things get

difficult, whether it's from a work point of view or a non work point of view, be there, you know, just don't abandon you know, stone to turn on people when things are difficult. So when you have that sense of trust, that sense of belonging, it really comes much more easily. Yeah, it has to go hand in hand, you can't have that every, what would you say what a common misconception is, when it comes to belonging, that you kind of come across it here.

Chris Rainey 15:33

Um, I think the biggest misconception around belonging is that it's, it's, it can be physical, you know, I mean, you, you, you include people in conversations, for example, but if you don't listen to what they have to say, then you don't really get that sense of belonging. So that would be what I call sort of a physical thing. But you're not really getting at the emotional part of it. You have big events when everybody is invited to these, these events. But you know, there's not really any kind of, you know, connection and trust to sort of make that that event feel great people that people, people end up trying to avoid it, because it's just noise in their life, as opposed to something that feeds them which connection should. So I keep going back to, you know, blogging is around trust, the other part of longing is around respect. And I call that out even though it's part of trust, because you just need that, like, if you're part of a group, and you don't feel respected, then you're really not part of that group where you don't where you won't want to be. So yeah, I'm sure everyone listening because to me was just thinking back to moments where I felt like that, like where you're invited to me in but you doesn't don't feel like you belong there. Right? Oh, you're invited to there was a leadership retreat in a previous company works on that. They I was invited, but I didn't want I didn't feel like I belong, and I didn't want to be there. So, but they would say, well, we invited Chris. So what do you mean, he doesn't feel like he belongs right to your point. So that's a really, really interesting perspective. And so at the same time, and I've learned that in our virtual meetings, I have to make a conscious effort to make sure I make sure I want food included, and heard. Otherwise, you have the extroverts, just over just wanting to help me and right and, and, and also, they not may not want to give me that feedback in that environment either. No, they might, they may want to message me, right, and not have to show up. So some people have to be aware of, but everyone wants to be in that group environment and give their feedback, and be vulnerable in a group setting Eva. So that's something I've had to learn to kind of meet people where they're at.

Paula Allen 17:57

We said exactly, when when you said meet people where they're at, that's, that's kind of an important thing as well. So just want to amplify it. Because when people feel included, right, which is sort of, you know, it's aligned with a sense of belonging, they feel that they can be who they are, right? So, you know, just in social environments, obviously, you're you, you don't have carte blanche rule to be rude to other people to average other people. But within that, you know, taking that aside, there's a lot of range of behaviors and things of that sort. So, just as sort of an example. Even what you're doing right now, Chris is very helpful to me and makes me feel a good sense of connection, like I belong in this podcast, because if you notice, I move around a lot.

Not Not everybody does, not everybody does, particularly in this video environment. And you know, you could have said, Okay, stop, no, follow don't move. Okay, you have to be this because that's the way it has to be.

Chris Rainey 19:04

Oh, now you said it

Paula Allen 19:10

would have been pretty that would have made me feel pretty excluded from any kind of rational sense of connection with with with you, it was just me it just put me in a place of anxiety that, you know, it was likely I unnecessary, and we do this, you know, a lot you know, in certain situations. I remember as a as a younger employee, I attended a dinner banquet and was absolutely terrified because I thought I wasn't sure that I was behaving in the right way like you had, like,

what do I do? What work do I stand now? Do I do this or whatever? Because it was it was not like, oh, you know, we It's okay. You know, we normally do this, but it doesn't matter if you do. I got the message pretty clear that I better I better understand the rule.

Chris Rainey 20:00

or I would be amplified as an outsider. That's not, that's not fun. Yeah, I've been there, I've been known exactly in that same environment where I went to a banquet, and there's like seven different forks.

Well, I don't know what outside in inside out. But I do know, one level of things I want to talk about is the pandemic was kind of a reset for a lot of people's collective mental health. And, and many people is trying to spotlight, you know, kind of one of the silver linings of, of the pandemic is that we can do a lot more conversation started to come up about mental health, because there, you know, there was becoming more and more of an issues, you know, we, we launched a global summit called ripple, where we brought together 3000 heads of wellbeing to address this challenge. And it's been part of our ongoing work. But what's the next big impact that you think will change mental health and suffering that we need to look out for?

Paula Allen 20:56

Okay, well, I might, I might give you a riddle, but I won't torture you that way. But when you when you hear about when you're in business conversations, it's hard to get through a business conversation without hearing about AI.

And the reality of the situation is that it will have no small impact on us as a society and therefore on our mental health. And where we are in this AI journey is right at the very beginning, I mean, we're seeing changes, we're seeing opportunities, it really hasn't taken off in the exponential manner that we expect to to very soon. So that'll affect us in a couple of ways. There will be a lot of things that are good, that come from this balance, I think it will be good. But the pace of change just by itself, will make it more difficult for us, like when you you need a little bit of change, you need a little bit of stimulation, you know, you need to have that it actually helps build new neural pathways, and helps you build a sense of resilience. When you have those kinds of challenge and a stimulation and you you move through you learn you adapt, you go forward. But when it's overwhelming, when you feel that you don't have the social support that we talked about, because you're isolated, when it the pace is just a little bit too fast, and you don't have the skills to deal with that new pace, you can get overwhelmed pretty quickly. And you know, usually that shows up as anxiety. So I think we have to watch that I think we have to work very hard on that those social connections, because again, that's the balance. But we also have to start building some skills around how to absorb information quickly adapt to it, not fear, like it's type is the type of thing that comes up in cognitive behavioral therapy. But I really think it needs to be integrated and into the schools and the systems that we have right now, because it is definitely a risk. Yeah. So that's what I think is going to be the next big wave that's going to change her mental health scores, unless we're more active to make sure that it doesn't happen. So it's really not so much the tool itself as the US adapting to the impact is having on us is that what is that? What you mean by Yeah, exactly. But there are there are things like there are unintended consequences for virtually everything. Right? Exactly. Yeah, it will have to be paid, we have to pay attention to that. I think one of our learnings is, in social media, I mean, there's a lot that's good about social media, like for example, I feel great about being able to connect with people that I otherwise wouldn't be able to keep in touch with and, and building those relationships even because they've not possible to be face to face, it gives me the sort of the next next thing because so I don't want to get rid of that. But there are some unintended consequences as well, you know, there's, you know, the barrage of information that might not be helpful for our self esteem. There's, there's the impact in terms of taking people away from from actual personal relationships and, and putting them in that in the in the social media sphere as a preference. So I think if we were a little bit smarter, we would have we would have balanced for that a little bit earlier and and amplified the things that are good and prepare people for the things that that are a little bit more concerning. Yeah, same thing with AI, we have to be we have to be a little bit mindful and

think about the potential impact of you know, just even talking, and I say talking to an artificial intelligence chatbot and, you know, does that become more comfortable in speaking with people

Chris Rainey 24:57

in research about that, right. There was a

Well being at work report that one of our partners sent over. And they did a survey to employees and asked him that question. And, you know, people came back saying I would actually be more comfortable speaking with an AI,

about my mental health than my own manager was pretty shocking, pretty shocking when I first read that, that most people would want to talk to about the neuro manager about them and a half.

Paula Allen 25:25

So think about that there's a good part and then there's a not so good part. The good part, and I believe this absolutely is probably going to be more than good, it's going to be great is that we know that there is this feeling that there's less stigma, when when speaking to inanimate being, maybe I don't know if that's the right word, but

so there's, there's less stigma, we have a lot of people who have intense social phobia, you know, sometimes it's very intense, sometimes it's not as intense, but it's impacting their lives. So the ability to communicate, and even sort of just develop communication and interpersonal skills, you know, that's great if the pot itself has sort of, you know, clinical programming, and it can appropriately move people encourage people reinforced them into broadening their social horizons.

That's really great. That's a huge advance over what we have right now. The thing that we have to manage for

is, is more comfortable speaking to AI. But what does that comfort mean? Because I, you know, there is no ego in AI. So, you know, at a certain point, I realized, I don't have to say, Please, and thank you at a certain point, you know, I can become very aggressive at a certain point. So, you know, the AI has to be programmed to set some boundaries as well, or whatever else, we're reinforcing that kind of incivility that might slip into human contact. So this is what I mean about so many good things. But we have to be really seriously mindful of the things that are could potentially not be good and manage those. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree with you. Because AI also allows us to offer that scale,

Chris Rainey 27:28

as well, as you said, allows, you can signpost, people a lot quicker, who wouldn't get access to information quicker while you're waiting for humans to come back to them? I think now, we have large action models, it can now take an action for you. So you can actually ask the AI to go and actually take a action as well. So it's going to be incredible, the way that we were gonna be able to access it, I kind of my first experience with therapy was like in the middle ground between, I didn't want to see someone in person, because I felt overwhelmed at the idea of going to see someone face to face, I didn't want to talk to a chatbot. So I'm not having a zoom call with a therapist.

So I hope there's like a middle ground.

In the middle for me, I felt safe because I was in my house, in my safe environment in my comfort zone. But at the same time, that person wasn't in the room with me. And I one vote and I felt virtue and I feel like a little bit you know, more in control of the conversation,

or just sort of the environment as well. So it's kind of strange, like, you got those two ends, and I was like in the middle. And that was really helpful for me, because most of it was all about just around the fear of actually going to see someone like oh, like I gotta go travel to this person I've never met and I've got to tell them all those things that I've never wanted to tell anyone, let alone a stranger. And that was really a game changer for me.

Paula Allen 28:53

Well, one of the one of the things I'm looking forward to with more scaled AI as well as is really a focus on the things that build equity and health. And, you know, there's many things I mean, people talk about bias and AI and that's a big issue. But if you're aware of it, then you can you can actually balance for that. But a lot of people you know, you didn't feel comfortable. A lot of people just can't, you know, you have young children at home, you're in or remote area, you have a unique need or your cultural background is such that you just turn you in person with the person that you need to be communicating with to get the right therapy for you. It's just not possible or practical. So, you know, one of the great things that came out of the pandemic is that virtual therapy, the one that you were speaking about is become much more common. And I see that definitely continuing. Yeah, definitely. It's just an easier barrier to entry.

Chris Rainey 29:56

To do that.

What are some of the things

things that we can all do now to start to be more mindful and take care of our mental health. What are some practical things that we can do?

Paula Allen 30:09

I think I think there's some pretty basic things, I, I put them into sort of four big buckets.

One is definitely understanding, really understanding how important that social connection is that social support is. And you know, some people are fortunate to have people around them, other people are not. But there's many ways that we can get that if we're not, you know, there's volunteer work, there's reaching out to others, just to showing that you care about them, because then you have that reciprocation, there's being emails just a little bit more patient and relationships, because I think a lot of us, you know, just have lost a lot of Asians just generally speaking, so we don't allow ourselves to get to the point of trust. And the reason why I say it's important for us to understand how important it is, is that loneliness isn't just something that doesn't feel good, it, it triggers the same parts of the brain as physical pain, it's really not good. It puts us so much strain on our bodies, that we're more likely to have cardiovascular health issues,

stroke,

immune system disorders, like it's really something that if you're responsibly taking care of your health and well being you cannot ignore. So that's sort of the one thing that social connection.

The other thing that I would say is just be aware of, of, you know, your brain is part of your body, and how you take care of your body is important. So, nutrition is something that we often forget, is something that impacts your brain. Like if you're not getting that wide variety of foods that you know, if you're, if you're overweighting, on things that are unhealthy for your heart are also, you know, sapping some of your personal resilience capacity as well. And again, if you don't believe me, will take a look and spend some time with me when I'm hungry, right, like just just a little bit of being

and not getting what I've My patience is down, my resilience is down, my interpersonal skills are down, like it's really just the foundation about the as being able to deal with the ups and downs of adrenaline in our lives. Yeah. The third thing is, you know, really pay attention to how you respond to things. Our research has said that people will become a lot more sensitive to stress, this is the pandemic. So you know, that ongoing strain that we had for quite some time, the isolation that we had, like, it actually impacted us. So we're more sensitive to stress, we're more likely to lash out. And, you know, nobody can tell you, I certainly can't tell you to feel something different. But how you respond, you have a lot of control over. So let's say something makes you angry.

You could be angry, and you could take it out on everybody around you. You can push away other people, you could isolate yourself, you could use you could do things that are disruptive, or you could realize that most anger is about frustration.

And then you could feel what frustrated you what didn't go your way, what can you do about it? How can I get out, collaborate and bring other people into my circle to sort of figure this this out, you're gonna go down to very different apps. Yeah, so.

And the only last thing that I would say is just open your world a little bit, I think some of us forget that, you know, we need a wide range of stimulation in order to be healthy, just like your body needs a wide range of movement. If you're always in a rut, you do the same thing. Every day, you see the same people every day, you know, you you're not, you know, you travel the same route.

Wherever every, every day, you're not giving your brain a chance to really be what it needs to be, which is, you know, having that ongoing stimulation, building those new neural pathways, and doing so in a way that you don't feel overwhelmed because you're in control. So those are the four things that I would say. So there are other things you can do meditation, a whole bunch of other things counseling, but I would say those are four basics. What are some of the things

Chris Rainey 34:44

you do personally,

that really work for you?

Paula Allen 34:50

Well, I have a you know, an advantage because I do this research. So those four things I know about a trial. There's one thing there's one thing right

Chris Rainey 35:00

There's one thing knowing and there's another thing incorporating it right. So

Paula Allen 35:05

true, but

pretty bad. If I didn't at least try. One of the things I do need to sort of go back to that I exercise. But when I was dancing, that I think was my best stress relief, because when you

just you cannot get what is it? You have to work, the type of dancing I did was was very social. You're moving your body, there's a sense of accomplishment, it was just fine. And you're not you can't think of anything else Or else you fall down. So it's, it's it was good for me. You know, other things might be good for other people. But that was that was really outstanding for me. Did we speak to that last time we spoke?

Chris Rainey 35:50

We might know. So I grew up in.

I used to be a professional dancer. Right? So no, we didn't speak about this, because I want to remember that. Yeah. So I was a breakdancer and I went on tour with ice and that was my first sort of career. And

I came, it started from I grew up in East London, super multicultural. So hip hop was obviously a big part of my upbringing. But honestly, the main reason I really got into dancing is that there was a lot of

drugs, alcohol, domestic violence in my house. So it was a really traumatic upbringing, which also is spot a recent attending with that now for my anxiety, which I didn't even realize, as well. But in dance for me, it was always my escape. And people would be like, Chris, you always dancing like you never stopped. And I'm like, it's the because like you said, you can't dance and be stressed. Like, you can't I mean, it was for me, it was the one moment where I forgot about the world. I forgot about the stress of about the fact that all the crazy things that were happening is it was I escaped into a different world. And so you just pulled out for me and I missed that actually had a what some of my old friends who are still dancers, you know, a couple of them, head of creative source for circus, Olay, and others, to choreograph the opening ceremonies in the last couple of Olympics, they've gone on to do really, really, really well. But we're starting a new show, which we're going to livestream into this TV studio, where we basically once a month, bring together dancers from all over the world. And we're gonna livestream it into the studio, where and kind of create like, Have you ever do you ever seen a YouTube channel boiler room with a DJ do they do like Delve get like the best DJs in the world to do like a live set. I know live stream it to YouTube. And even though you're at home, you kind of listening to a live set, you feel like you're at the event, but you're not right. We're doing the same thing for dance. So we want to kind of bring the dancers together, create a really cool environment, livestream it to all the platforms over the world, and people feel like they're part part of this big dance event. And it was something to revisit in my childhood. really random, excited topic I just woke off. But you are right. Like, for me, that was always my moment of escape. And I've lost that. Actually, I need to get that back. Because I don't have a version of that apart from Jim. Jim isn't working out but don't seem so there's a different level of escapism from compared to running your gym. And maybe like, that gives me 50 50% of the way there. But dance, I'm like, fully immersed. So people need to find what works for them. So my co founder is doing long distance running, he'll go out and do like a 20k. And he'll come back and he's like, I've solved that problem.

Right? So I'm like, No, I'm not doing it on a Sunday, you can go and do that yourself.

So it's different for different people, right? But it's just funny that you mentioned dance, because no one's ever said that to me before.

And you said that as well.

What about

what would you be your advice on how to to approach someone that you can see who's who's struggling? Because there's people we see around us that are struggling and it's sometimes really hard to approach that conversation. I'm actually going through that right now with a couple of friends and they're not receiving

and they're blocking us out this day becoming more isolated.

What advice would you give on when it comes to that?

Paula Allen 39:28

Yeah, you'll hardly ever go wrong with

anything if you're honest, kind and patient.

I think the first thing around being honest is many of us will see people struggling It doesn't sound like you are doing this but many of us will see people struggling. And because it feels very uncomfortable for us to figure out what to do we try to do nothing, or we ignore or you know, it's it's we just don't, we don't step in

That's, that's not honest. And when you do the most important thing, the best possible thing that you can do for another human being ever, but particularly if they're struggling, is to show that you care. You know, just as you don't have to diagnose, you don't have to solve the problem, you don't have to. It's a little sometimes disrespectful to say, well, you know why you do this and the other, because that might minimize something that's been building in their life and quite complex for several years. But if they know that you care, and that you can be very specific about what you're seeing, and why, why it's concerning you. And that's part of the honesty as well, you can be very helpful. Because it helps people number one, feel connected to you, which is the base of it, everything if you know, another human being cares, that wraps around the world twice and is necessary in any kind of message in any kind of positive back step. Yeah. And, yeah, if you're specific, that you're not judging,

if you say, you know, I will, you used to do this, and now you do this, and I'm concerned, or, you know, you've been doing X, and I'm worried that's gonna harm you. And that's why I'm concerned, it's a very different conversation than I think becoming a drug addict, or I think you're depressed, you know, you're, you're, you're judging people, you're making an assumption, you're not basing it on something that you see. And you probably don't have any right to do that, because you're not really a clinician. So that just clarity, you know, this is what I see, showing people that you care about them. And the last point around patience, is that it might take a couple of times, before there's any sort of response. It's not about you and getting a response. It's about them and their comfort in and taking any kind of next step, which could include include just talking to you and not yelling at you. Yeah, no, I love that. That advice you just shared that I think's gonna help so many people, as well, because you're right. There's a couple of approaches people take one leaders ignore it. Right? They just pretend they can't, because they don't want to face the hard conversation.

Chris Rainey 42:20

Or they feel like they could only address it, if they have a solution. No, you're not there to be, you have to have a solution to have the conversation. Or the other is, unfortunately, some people approach it the way you just described it. And it always comes across as an attack, labeling, labeling it, you know, when they really don't have the right or they don't understand,

to be able to do that.

I think where I'm at is I've kind of said, Hey, this is what I've noticed. And it's concerning, kind of similar to what you're saying,

multiple times, but I'm just not getting a result. Or a response. Yeah. And then that's where I feel a bit stuck. And it scares me

a little bit, because I've had friends that have taken their own lives in the past. And I've seen a similar

pattern along the way. And it's like, at what point do I

take myself out of the picture? or push further, you know,

Paula Allen 43:23

can I think I think, you know, the patience is one thing, but if if you are the other thing that can be helpful, is helping people with that clear next step. So and that might, that next step might not include you, you know, that might next step might be, you know, doing something different seeing someone

seeing someone else, you know, going somewhere, but that clear next step is is helpful as well. And if you can kind of, you know, be with that person to help them even try out that next step, or at least offer it. That's great. Like in workplaces. Sometimes the next step, but shown is you know, this is the number for the EAP or this is how you access. And then you can take yourself, you know, somewhat out of it. And I say somewhat because you don't ever want to stop showing that you care.

You don't want it to come across as like I've done my job.

Chris Rainey 44:22

Yeah, exactly. You could definitely cover that.

I could talk to you all day long, so much for taking the time out. I think obviously, the work that you do is change changes people's lives literally right. Which is why I was excited to have you on the show and I can see in your passion for what you do. There's a very clear sense of purpose and, and mission. So thank you for the work that you do. And I wish you all the best until next week,

Paula Allen 44:45

very much likewise, the subtitle as you're speaking with you

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