Best Strategies for Burnout Prevention & Workplace Wellbeing

Simon Blake, CEO of MHFA England, explores the intersection of mental health and workplace design. He discusses the impact of flexible and hybrid work models on mental well-being, emphasizes the crucial role of HR in creating adaptable and inclusive work environments, and highlights how integrating mental health considerations into job roles can significantly improve employee well-being.

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In today's episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we are thrilled to feature Simon Blake OBE CCMI, the Chief Executive Officer at MHFA England®.

With his extensive experience, Simon brings invaluable insights into enhancing workplace mental health and well-being. He shares his essential strategies for fostering a supportive and effective workplace that prioritizes mental health alongside professional performance.

🎓 In this episode, Simon discusses:

1. How flexible and hybrid work models affect mental well-being

2. The critical integration of mental health into the structural design of job roles to enhance employee well-being

3. The vital role of HR in supporting adaptable, mentally healthy, and diverse work environments

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Simon Blake 0:00

It just doesn't make any business sense whatsoever to not really start getting under the skin of how do we deal with and support people to be fully human as well as they can be in the context of work in order that they can deliver the best that they possibly can.

Chris Rainey 0:22

Simon, welcome to the show. How are you?

Simon Blake 0:24

I'm very well, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Chris Rainey 0:26

I think you're the first guest has ridden a bike all the way across London to be here. So I appreciate the commitment.

Simon Blake 0:32

And it was a lot longer than I thought I thought I was gonna be about eight miles, it turned out to be 12 and a half. But yeah, it's good.

Chris Rainey 0:38

You're, you're really set an example for wellbeing, no.

Simon Blake 0:43

Cycle. Hey, I mean, I don't quite know how I'd have got here if I'd had to come by public transport. And I'm sure it wouldn't have been quite so nice, glorious spring day. Yeah. Alicia,

Chris Rainey 0:51

nice and awake and lively, though. Before we jump in, tell everyone a little bit more about you personally, and your journey to where we are now.

Simon Blake 0:59

So I am Chief Exec of Mental Health First Aid England now. And I start I'm supposed to be an educational psychologist. That was where I started, but I didn't finish. I fell in love and missed the deadline. And then I've always described my career as an accidental one. I became an expert in sex education, because I got a job. I'm running a sex education project for young men in the mid 90s. And then worked in sexual health and health education for about the next 20 odd years had a stint at the National Union of Students before coming to Mental Health First Aid England in 2018. Wow.

Chris Rainey 1:37

So what was your previous role before this?

Simon Blake 1:41

Chief Executive, the National Union of Students

Chris Rainey 1:44

nice and what was the what attracted you to this new role? I suppose.

Simon Blake 1:49

So, having worked in sexual health and sex education, HIV for 20 years, it was really clear that mental health and sexual health and who we are, as people are absolutely interlinked. So when this particular job came out, I just thought, you all have that sense of improving our mental health literacy as a country thinking about public health, improving public health understanding was really, it, I guess it it lit the fire in my belly, really. And, of course, that was just before COVID. And all of that need for us all to have the emotional intelligence, the understanding the helping skills, it's become even more important. Yeah, now more than ever,

Chris Rainey 2:40

to live on a little bit more about MHFA, who perhaps are not aware of it? Sure.

Simon Blake 2:44

So we're a social enterprise. And we're part of a global network of organizations that deliver Mental Health First Aid training, mental health, knowledge, skills, and awareness. And we have a primary focus on the workplace. And the workplace really, is because adults spend an awful lot of time at work and work designed well is good for us. But work equally, you know, can be stressful, it can create poor mental health. So trying through our training and consultancy, to enable workplaces to be as good as they can be, and to support people through purpose, connection, sense of belonging and achievement. But also workplaces because it's where we can learn skills which we can take into communities and into our families, because we know the weather your parents, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, that these core skills of being able to recognize signs and symptoms of poor mental health, and know how to look after your own health and to signpost and support others is absolutely key in our personal lives and professional lives.

Chris Rainey 3:57

Yeah, I love the fact that you pointed that out because there isn't one without the other. Right? They're intertwined in that way. But many people, especially me, growing up my career, you never really taught a lot of these things. Along the journey until you're right now it wasn't part of my manager training, or any in any way, shape or form. Yeah,

Simon Blake 4:16

and I think this is where we've got to move to, isn't it? We are we're on a really exciting journey where actually, you know, 30 years ago, you're right, it was or 20 years ago, 15 years ago, it wasn't talked about it was the expectation of the stiff upper lip and you managed to go into work and you could carry on regardless of what was going on either in your personal life or if you had to diagnose a mental illness or or feeling mentally unwell. Over time, what we've realized is that that just isn't the case that you know, when you are at work, you are the same person as you are at home and if you need help and support that everybody should be able to access access to that through the workplace. And I'm really pleased, you talked about line managers, because in all of our work, what we know is it's the line manager who provides really good support to people or don't. And if they can provide support, it can be really, really critical. But as you know, chartered Management Institute finds lots of us end up as managers without having any training to be a manager. And if you've got no trained to be a manager, how can you be good when it comes to supporting people around them? Mental health

Chris Rainey 5:30

is so tough, right? And it's something you're really passionate about is talking about how we go further, beyond just having a conversation around mental health, from a surface level, but build mental health workplaces for everyone. Can you talk about what you mean by that? Yeah,

Simon Blake 5:44

I think there's three layers to it really. The first is that we often talk about a work life balance. So I guess where I'd like to start is, let's have a balanced life that work fits into. And as we explore where we're going to future you and that sense of true flexibility, that true balance, which is driven by passion, you know, is I not? I don't think that work life balance quite does what we're doing. We're trying to get balanced lives where we can all blend right then the balance. Yeah, absolutely. But it's driven by, you know, that flexibility or autonomy ability to do to do things? Well, we then often get into a situation where people talk about mental health and performance separately, or they talk about equity, and mental health and performance separately. And I think from my perspective, it's how do we get all of those things right to drive performance, you know, their sense of belonging, sense of inclusion, good well being, and performance all fuel one another. And, and so when we're having a well being conversation, we're having a performance conversation, we have performance conversation, we're having a well being conversation, but you've got to create the conditions and the have the right culture, to be able to make sure everybody feels like they belong, everybody feels like they've got the support to be able to achieve.

Chris Rainey 7:03

So it's really important to look at each of those things for wellbeing lens for wellbeing lens.

Simon Blake 7:10

It's a multi dimensional lens, I guess it's you know, that that, that we know that when people are satisfied at work, they're more likely to go the extra mile when they feel like they belong, and they don't have to worry about, you know, parts of their identity being revealed at work, being scared of it, they can concentrate on the job in hand, you know, that it can operate at the edge of innovation, when you know, you've got support behind you, you know that you're in an environment that wants you to succeed. And so often we talk about the big discourses about workplace stress, and we've got to have that conversation. But also, we've got to have the conversation, which is what is the sense of joy? What drives purpose? What drives connection? How can people feel really satisfied and fulfilled through work knowing that if there are issues which need addressing that they will be done openly, honestly and compassionately?

Chris Rainey 8:11

Yeah. When you when you talk about work? How does How do companies help support mental health through the way we design jobs through job design itself? Yeah.

Simon Blake 8:21

So the first thing is it has to be a whole organization? Yeah, approach, doesn't it? You know, we we have to make sure that we understand the business, we understand what are going to be the things which will drive mental health, why are people here? Why do people choose to come to work with us? And then to also understand what might be some of the areas which will impact on mental health? Are there peaks and troughs through the year? You know, are there particular cycles that you go through? Are there particular tasks? Yeah, which could be done in different ways, which, so really thinking about, not just how do we manage stress when it manifests? But are there ways that we can think about driving? Yeah, predicting it, and but also trying to, to flush it out of the system? You know, if you think about town, town planners, you know, the way that town planners will try to build for exercise and light and safety and all of those sorts of things. How do we build into our systems to try to create the best that we can and then how do we help people to know that this is a place that they will be supported? What do we do through our recruitment, our retention through our induction through the values? What training do people have as line managers? What conversations are people having about how people will be able to thrive at work, and then what sources of support are available, whether it's Mental Health First Aiders, whether it's the EAP plan, whether it's people coming in to help around financial well being how do people know that you care about them as people and one of the most important ways of that, of course, is by having those good management connect Shouldn't and so often people are managing on the side of their desk, your good management takes time. If I'm managing you, we need to have good quality conversations. If you're managing me, I want you to know enough about me to know that if I look different, they'll feel different, or I'm communicating in different ways that you can say to me, yeah, I've noticed this, are you okay? And that takes time. And I think some of the way that the world speeds up and we we can open up a laptop and see a load of emails, or we can jump from teams to Google to zoom means that sometimes we're not actually having enough at that time for managers and and peers to be supporting one another.

Chris Rainey 10:45

Do you think that hybrid and flexible working is made that more of a challenge, because I felt like earlier, when before remote and hybrid were working, I could kind of have seen that seem a lot more, I'm picking up those cues and noticing those things more, because I'm seeing them right, I noticed a bit quieter, or who would have standing up late or, you know, not engaging in meetings. I felt like it's become a little bit more difficult to do that when everyone's so remote, and you're behind the Zoom screen to really pick up on some of those cues, if that makes sense.

Simon Blake 11:15

It makes complete sense. And on a very personal level, I would say yes, it is harder. Some people would disagree and say it is it is possible to do but I think that we we feed off each other don't reuse in relationships and connections. But I don't I don't think it's impossible. I think we've got to be deliberate. And think about how are we still going to make that time for connection? And having conversations with people more deliberately say it is harder. But what are the signs? So sometimes people will assume that the cameras off? is a problem. It might be Yeah, that there is somebody else working at home or that somebody's eating their lunch? Or whatever it is. So it's knowing and understanding. And I guess, for me, the question would always be what can you do in advance in order to know, and having those conversations with people to say, it's obviously going to be a bit harder? What can we do to try to prep for that? And then if you have any doubts is asking the question, finding the time to ask the question, I think lots of this comes down to, to having the time to to stopping and thinking, which I guess is one of the other bits, which I do think that hybrid and flexible working, and lots of other things have stopped us doing. So when I started work, and there wasn't an email system. I couldn't open my computer and do lots of things all morning. And think that I've been productive, I can do that. Now. Yeah, on a day when my brain isn't thinking I can pick up my computer. Some of those things may have been relevant, or they may just been answering people so few polite, whereas really thinking is about joining the dots. It's about having the time to process what's happened. And then think what action do I need to take as a result? So I might notice something in a team's meeting. immediately jump off that team's meeting. Forget that I've noticed something because I've gone on to the next digital meeting. Oh, yeah. So you lots of this is about how do we give our brain the time to process things. And again, in that sort of moving forward culture, which we've got all the time that we can sometimes forget to process, some of the things that have happened. And then we started this by talking about the cycle 12 miles, where all I could do was concentrate on staying alive across the roundabout, and process some of the things that were happening. Yesterday was a really great commute. Whereas had I been on public transport, I would have been doing emails, yeah, there's so it's what do we build into our day to day lives to give ourselves time and my first boss, Jill, Joe, Francis always said, the thing you must never stop doing when you're working is thinking and everything that we do at the pace of innovation at the pace that we operate. I think Dr. Sometimes against us just having those percolating thoughts.

Chris Rainey 14:19

Yeah. But to your point, though, you have to be intentional about creating that time otherwise, it just won't happen. Yep. Only literally this morning, just before you got a I wrote an email to my EA, she want my miscellaneous saying, hey, I need you to stop bugging back to that means because I need some space between I've got free podcasts today. And and I've got a call immediately after each one. And I was like, Hey, I just need you to book some time. So I can have time to process that information. Also take a break as well. But otherwise, I kind of just go on to the next call and forget about all of the great ideas or insights that was and later on when I'm thinking about it. I'm like it's not as clear anymore because I've just been thrown into another moment if that makes sense, as well as something that needs to be even, I'm even like blocking out, you know, non negotiable times for like, just specifically just an hour a day just to think and process and have an opportunity. Similarly with my gym time, like your cycle the gym for me is an opportunity that well working out just the process and have thoughts and go through ideas or business or even some of the best challenges I've solved, just begun by working out. I'm gonna Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah, I was the one I've had that time to be able to do that. I

Simon Blake 15:29

think that's true. And I guess the other bit, which is, you know, we're sat here face to face. And I will remember this on some of the things that we said, because of remembering the space. Yeah, I've not been to the space before. I remember when I came in, I said, Oh, we got the gray jumper memo. So you remember that. So you get all of those different sensory? Yeah, sort of perspective. Yeah, with that sense of smell that I can remember some things from 20 years ago, based on the fact someone wore a green cardigan that I really liked, or that they had, you know, and aftershave or perfume, which you remember, and it triggers. So all of those connections, which our brain uses to file these catalogs of information. They're incredibly important. And those are the things which, you know, it's not to say that the golden days are behind us. It's how do we know those things which our brain uses to help us to process and to perform and to deliver, and then build them into our new ways of doing things? And yeah,

Chris Rainey 16:29

a lot of what we've been talking about falls on the shoulder of HR in most companies, what can HR do to really help? And is this just a role of HR? You know, it should just be the entire business? Because it's obviously HR taking the brunt of a lot of the work? Yeah.

Simon Blake 16:46

It has to be the whole business. But there has to be the leadership. Yeah, and, and HR, have got that really great, sweet spot where they know about the organizational design, they know about the learning development, they know about the sport they know about people and what sorts of issues are coming in. So I think, absolutely pivotal role, but then who, what are your What are your energy waves, I guess, through the business, so we have everybody, mhf England who's trained in mental health first aid skills. And so we don't have Mental Health First Aiders, but you know, that if there's somebody that you trust, and you want to have conversation, they will be trained to do so I think we often underestimate the power of peers, and don't have those conversations about what that what is our responsibility as, as individuals within the business. Yeah, we're all part of building the right culture, we're all part of building an AI. I guess, for HR, it's how, how do you use those different levers which are available across the business. And so often, there are people who are passionate about whether it's mental health, whether it's about diversity and inclusion, whether it's about, you know, ensuring that people have got the support that they need. So we all come to work with different drivers with different personality types, and how do we maximize those, but again, it's coming back to? How do we make sure we know who we are as human beings? How do we make sure that we know what gives us satisfaction and where we're willing to put in the extra mile? And whether that's through champion networks, whether that's through specific roles, whatever it is, and often it's driven by lived experience. As

Chris Rainey 18:34

a chief exec yourself, what advice would you give to HR leaders about how to engage the business engage the senior leadership team get to get buy in as it were,

Simon Blake 18:44

about mental health specifically. So the key bit about this is it is not separate from performance. If you look at Deloitte research, which they do every three years, the cost to UK business and unconsciousness is global, but the UK business is 56 billion pounds per year, the cost just of mental health, when that's modeled, and that is through presenteeism, and leave ism, as much as it is through absenteeism, which of course is where people always think it's going to be and one of the things that has shifted and that's that's really risen incrementally, 9 billion overreach over the last three year periods over. He appears that cost was driven from 36 ish billion when I first started working in mental health in 2018 to 45 and up to 5456. company I can't remember and that was before COVID. So we've known throughout for the loss of modeling. So there is a moral issue. And and I think that lots of businesses are clear. about the moral cost the moral driver and the human cost and the human driver. But there's also performance and a business and a bottom line driver. So what that research shows is that for every pound you spend, you get five pound 40 return on investment. And if you just take that as a mental health, there's then also further modeling and I don't have the exact figures, but you know about the impact of alcohol use, there's then further figures about impact of domestic abuse as them further bits on racism, and sexism, all of which, when you put them into a holistic framework, you know, think about what we're saying about mental health equity, performance, or driving each other. You know, it's, it's just doesn't make any business, any business sense whatsoever, to not really start getting under the skin of how do we deal with and support people to be fully human, as well as they can be in the context of work in order that they can deliver the best that they possibly can. So that would be my my pitch, the starting pitcher, be moral, human, but also business and you put those three together, and it just is is unthinkable that there is anything other than an urgent need to continue doing what we're doing.

Chris Rainey 21:22

Now, the numbers are staggering, that you just shared. My concern is because I think, you know, during the pandemic, we saw a lot of investment. And we saw a lot of focus on wellbeing. But it feels like we're now capsule, going back a little bit from the conversations I'm having. I speak to a global heads of well being every day from global brands, their budgets are being cut. We're so my worry is that we struggle to sustain the momentum that we built. There's almost like a silver lining in the pandemic of this spotlight was shown on wellbeing. We launched our global wellbeing summit and couldn't believe we had 3000 executives join that saw that Wow. Okay, clearly, but now it seems to be I don't know, if you're saying this to be interested, you're closest and I am that there seems to be the momentum that we got were struggling to sustain.

Simon Blake 22:15

I think this is probably one of those Yes. And answers, you know that certainly in some of the work that we've done, what we're hearing people say is that they're getting less check ins around wellbeing, from their managers. And I think some of the other stuff feels integrated, we get used to what's there. And we all know that, yeah, when something's new, and it's shiny, we recognize it, and we see it and other times when it's integrated. It can just become part of the background noise, or we're going and what's next, and what's next. And I think there is a really important job now of consolidating what we do and to think about it in, in sort of three buckets, if you like one is how do we do? What do we do? And how do we support everybody to be fully engaged, and well, and to feel like they belong? And that they're psychologically safe? What do we do in order to help people at particular periods of time, whether that's through periods of poor mental health, through bereavement through whatever transition through chronic illness, et cetera? And then how do we make sure that workplaces are great places to work for people who have a severe, enduring mental illness? And if we've got that clarity about what it is we're trying to do, then we can make sure that we're operating across the spectrum to really address particular issues at particular times. And and I, I guess there are so many things which people are trying to do, it's what do you think are going to be the two or three things which will make the biggest difference that you can build on incrementally over time? And that feels to me about we are about where we where we are, right now. It's how do you make the budgets work? How do we use what we've learned to really drive ongoing success? How do we integrate mental health into line manager training? How do we integrate mental health equity inclusion into induction processes so that it becomes just part of everything that we do? And you know, how do you make sure that you've got champions, First Aiders, whatever it is, as part of your infrastructure, and then building that on an ongoing, ongoing basis?

Chris Rainey 24:34

Yeah. One of the challenges I hear from leaders is around how do you communicate this internally? Because a lot of friends and colleagues that I speak to, until that they don't, they didn't then if they're not even aware of the support that they even have because it's somewhere in an intranet somewhere, or the benefits that they have and I wonder if What are some of the creative ways or impactful ways that you've seen companies do that to really build some momentum, obviously getting internal champions and some of the things you mentioned, but it's any other cool things that you've seen that I that really worked, and it was really a creative way of approaching it.

Simon Blake 25:15

So one of the things I would just start here is we do also have individual accountability. It does worry me sometimes that we say to him say, Oh, we haven't been told we don't know. Yeah, the reality is that for most organizations, now, there is some sort of support. And I recognize there are always outliers into that. But what we mustn't do is always be saying, and what does the business need to do? What does the business need to do? You know, I have a responsibility as an individual, we have an app, and it has offers as part of the app now. I'm the chief exec, you know, as part of signing off this process, and I knew that offers were on it. I've had it for a year, I have a look on those offers nearly isn't enough as I should. That's not That's not me as chief execs fault. That's me as Simon Blake, who doesn't look to see whether I can get cinema tickets, or whatever it is. So there is something here where we have to have a conversation, which is what is the individual's accountability? And what is the organization's accountability? When it comes to the organization's there is something about curation, and ongoing repeating and repeating and repeating because I don't look for support until I need it. And then yeah, and I don't know what I don't know where to find it. Yeah, all those sorts of things, and people don't hear. So also you even on your EAP people don't know what it can offer. So we have to keep on repeating that. And you and I were having a conversation before we started about curating information, there is so much information that sometimes the problem that actually you go, yeah, well, I don't know where to look. And so I don't know, we have to be creative, I think we have to be repetitive. Yeah. And whether that's in every single internal newsletter, you know, I do a message to all staff every Friday, and we'll regularly say, reminder that this is here. Sometimes people will talk to me say I use this through the app. And I'll say I was talking to somebody the other day, who said they'd use this just to remind people that it's there. And again, just becomes part of part of what we do. Every single day.

Chris Rainey 27:37

I've seen companies get really creative, obviously, the standard stuff, of having that conversation, your one to ones or having it at your town halls, where it's digital, or virtually, and making that part of it to have just as a reminder, more to see and companies create their own podcasts, as well like DHL. Linda bridges, who's their global VP of HR does a podcast around wellbeing and di, where she has just had conversations with different executives and, and other leaders and employees in the business. And they just post it out on all the different platforms publicly. So you can get an insight. So don't making it going to go into employees rather than trying to bring them to you. They're using Spotify, they're using YouTube. Put it put it out there, they're using LinkedIn. And she's seen amazing results of something as simple as that doesn't cost a huge amount of money. It's very authentic, as well.

Simon Blake 28:30

And I think that's the point, isn't it the using all the different platforms and not not expecting it to reach everybody? Yeah, that's the other bitterness that I've hear see quite a lot about people saying, oh, only 10% or only 5%? Well, 5% 10% is a good percentage, they may be the people who needed it in that moment, as long as we keep on going, it might be 5% 10% Each month who are accessing it, but it's probably going to be some different people. So if you were able to disaggregate that and think cumulatively, and also ensuring it's part of the everyday conversations is the reality that we know that if people have a good experience or something they will tell their teammates, so make it good.

Chris Rainey 29:17

Yeah. You mentioned earlier we've we've kind of come up a couple of times. Why is it so important for us to bring together di and well being and what's the sort of the impact that they can have?

Simon Blake 29:28

Well, I guess diff different people have different experiences at work, don't they? We know that some people get promoted easier get their voices heard easier. Some people feel as though they're unable to to speak some people think they'll be judged by what they wear. All of those things impact our experience of being in the workplace, you know the gender pay gap, the ethnicity pay gap is all part in my mind of workplace well being so when you look from it end to end. And we've really talked about workplace mental health, it's what are all the things that are going to make people feel like they belong, that they can trust that they will have a fair and just experience at work. And that they will experience equity of value of contribution your whatever different roles are that they build that so, for me, they're so intrinsically linked to as a gay man who grew up in the 80s. I went to work and I was scared about what people's response would be like, to me being being gay. And over time, I've learned that other people's response may not be a thing. But some of those things that I learned in the 80s and 90s, still sit with me as you go in. So again, I have personal responsibility in this. But as workplaces, we know that structure, structural inequalities exist. And we know that they impact on the way that people experience things and the way that people are responded to so what can we do, to try to use that understanding to bring it through? So I guess, for me, it's impossible to not have them. Together, we know more and more about neuro diversity and neuro divergence and people's experiences. And I was with Artie Foose runs ability and disability in based in Brighton, and he was saying, you know, people often talk about whether you need reasonable adjustments, I think is a much better question. He says, it's a much better question to ask, what do you need to be able to be really good in this workplace? And we'll see what we can do to try to make that happen so that it doesn't start with a norm? And is it reasonable for us to adjust reasonable adjustments isn't but what what do you think you're gonna need in order to be brilliant here? Yeah, just a nicer way of saying, What's a different way to frame it as well? Yeah, that way, and it goes for everyone. Because actually, we all have different ways that might be carrying duties, it might be, you know, particular ways that we process information, think about information that just gives everybody the chance to really think I mean, if if have you ever been asked that as you go into your workplace? How can we help you be brilliant here?

Chris Rainey 32:18

No, one I think is I've started doing know when I'm hiring people is having that conversation similar to that of like, how do we get the best out of this relationship? And as asking someone questions, a few questions around that. And I found that that's kicking off expectations, I've sometimes have realized, Oh, our expectations weren't actually aligned. And all the way I thought you'd like to be intimated communicated to is definitely not how I've been doing it. So these assumptions that sometimes that we make, now I'm trying to, from very early on in relationships, have all of those conversations? Yeah, it just sets you up for success. Yeah. Because sometimes it is, it's just you're just misaligned, you're both your expectations were not aligned. Or you know, I was giving feedback to an employee for like a year and recently we had a conversation is like no actually prefer to be given feedback like this. Oh, God this entire time. I've been thinking that's how you end or I had another employee that whenever we would do like an awards or celebrate success, he doesn't like being publicly put doesn't like that to be received publicly. He's his idea would be one on one, he feels more as personal when Wow, Chris really sees me as opposed to his public setting. So just sometimes, like just having those conversations and understanding those things are huge for people as as whereas early on in my career and so we'll make that mistake now. Something make us up make assumptions. Yeah,

Simon Blake 33:37

really? Well, we learned certain things, didn't we? So I always learned if you're giving difficult feedback, it should always be face to face and I remember one ACOTA said I'd much rather rather have had this in email and then come see you in half an hour's time because interesting yeah, I would have had time to process it to have had my immediate emotions on my own and then to be able to to come in have a conversation so there are all sorts of different things you i i increasingly in saying to people please don't WhatsApp me work things because WhatsApp only goes on my phone. And that is really just feels like it needs an immediate response. Whereas actually needed your LinkedIn similarly, you know, that LinkedIn inbox, yeah, it seems

Chris Rainey 34:19

to me that Chris, I messaged you on LinkedIn. And I'm like, like that ads are gonna get lost. And it's even more challenging now, right? Because you've got, you've got slack, you've got WhatsApp, you've got email, you've got LinkedIn message, you've got like, I've got like five different inboxes in different platforms. And it's important that we ask we again, we communicate, like how would you like to reflect? Don't

Simon Blake 34:38

you love it when somebody walks up to you to tell you their LinkedIn message, which they've also emailed you about? And then when you haven't responded within seven minutes, go on to Facebook Messenger as well. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 34:46

Oh, yeah. It's tough it that's another thing that also from a lobbying perspective, it can become overwhelming, overwhelming, because it's like you're always on. Right? And it's important even even if something simple, that about With your email just to say, you know, these are the times that I work, you know, and, and just be thoughtful about that as well. That is also where technology can help, you know, Slack, you can set times hours or your emails, you can set a message that will let someone know that you're in X timezone, just like little things like that. I'll software even get prompt saying, Are you sure you want to send this, Chris? Yeah. Because this person's here. Oh, actually, thank you, thank you technology for helping me and I make that mistake, you know, small things like that can really help.

Simon Blake 35:33

There's all sorts of things. But I think this comes back again, doesn't it about this is where as individuals and our line managers and our business, we have to work together. So last night, I went to an awards do and on the way home, I was doing some emails, and I had a choice, which was either send them at that point, or to try to put them in my draft folder. And then members thought, I'm actually working, it is half past 10. I don't mind people knowing I'm working. But are they going to have their device? And then am I responsible for somebody having their device open? Yeah, so think, is navigating new rules, isn't it finding new ways saying if I'm setting it up as 10 doesn't mean it's the most important thing, it means that I'm on the DLR. And I've got 20 minutes, which I'm not going to have tomorrow. So

Chris Rainey 36:20

you may think they're right, but then you're gonna feel obligated to reply. That's the issue.

Simon Blake 36:25

Well, that's the conversation that we've got to have that exactly.

Chris Rainey 36:27

So thanks for sharing my co founder, it doesn't matter what time we're gonna message each other, go Java. And we made a mistake when we started building the company that everyone's going to be OK with that. And we really realized that they don't own the company, when they're not going to, like we're literally message that was on sale at 1am. And we're both excited about that one's gonna be really excited about things that we are. Yeah.

Simon Blake 36:49

And there's no, there's boundaries aren't there, and all those sorts of things. But I think it's, I think it is important that we, we don't say nine to five is the norm, anything outside of nine to five, we must pretend it doesn't happen. If we are truly going to say we want flexibility and autonomy and to trust people. But it means that we've all got to find ways to have the conversations about, you know, I used to do some things on Sunday mornings, because I got up early and had some time on Sunday mornings. And somebody said, these must be the most important things because he's doing it on Sunday morning. They weren't they were the mindless things which I could do on Sunday morning while I was cooking, breakfast or you know, doing whatever. So again, it's that bit of not allowing assumptions and mis assumption, Miss assumptions, misunderstandings to develop,

Chris Rainey 37:37

it's really important. Interesting question, randomly came to my mind, when we talk about mental health and well being at work, what are the things that people aren't talking about enough in your mind that they really should be talking about?

Simon Blake 37:54

So the one thing that I worry about is, but in creating more hybrid and flexible working, we often talk about what is the benefit of being in the office? Whereas I think the question which I'm interested in is, what is the benefit of your home, being your home, and not to the place that you work? So for me, my home is the place where I would often metabolize, work or do the fun things rather than actually do the work. And that obviously shifted and changed during COVID. And I recognize entirely that the world has changed. But sometimes, I think the question which were asked is all about what are the benefits of being in the office? And there's a question for me, which is, what are the benefits of being out of your house? And they're quite different questions. And, and, and it will be different for everyone. And it will be really important to hear. And I guess, for me, I often hear these polarized views, you know, on on what is right, rather than some real conversations, and we know that our brains need time to process things, we know that we need downtime, and movement is a really important part of that. So again, is into everyone needs a commute. Nobody needs a computer, everybody should get up and walk. But what do we need to need? What do we need to know about the neuroscience of our brains to understand enough about how it manages to process information, how we manage it to rest so that we're not creating a scenario where some of the things which we used to take for granted? For most people or for those who are lucky enough to have safe homes home was a really good protective measure from work, play stress that shifted your movement? Relationships connections. How do we how do we navigate our way through all of those things with an understanding of what they brought? And not saying there's only one answer, which is everyone go back? But what are the answers which enable us to keep what we need in order to help people to mentally mentally healthy? And I think that big one about how do how do what what role did our homes play in supporting our mental well being when we weren't using them for work as much as we are now? Yeah,

Chris Rainey 40:31

no, I love that. And I think it's gonna differ for everyone this is to be clear on that, right. And for me, personally, I really struggled working from home because work no longer work, for me was a building a business is stressful, my life was pretty, you know, running a million miles an hour. So home for me, it was a place to relax, recharge, unwind my safe space. When I then mix both, and I was at home, I felt kind of trapped, almost sort of saying to my wife, I feel like I just, I'm trapped in my own home, in that sense. And I started struggling with anxiety attacks and, and like depression, and just really, really struggling, I had to sit down with Shane, my business partner and say, I can't do this, like I really want to be I need to get, I need to separate it for me. And since doing that, it's been a game changer. But I appreciate not everyone can do that. And there's everyone has their own different circumstances. But I liked that separation of when I leave the house, it's a mental shift between when I walk through the door, but I also just love collaborating on my team as well. So I choose to take the time to travel here to be in person. But some of my other employees are completely opposite. They love the fact that they can be at home, more focused, they're closest to their children, many other different things as well. But I feel like you've got to figure out what works best for you. And for me, it's definitely separating the two, I love going home and home being home, I could just forget about it and just be lost in the moment. And not. Whereas it's hard to do that when you're walking from one room to the next room. In your own home. I just I maybe some people can do like metal switch, but I personally couldn't do it as well,

Simon Blake 42:12

well, and it will be different for everyone. But there are some common factors. So yeah, if you leave your computer on the kitchen table, as I often do, because I really enjoyed the mix of home, then your brain sees it. And it connects something. Yeah, it may be the highlight of the day, it may be the thing you've forgotten to do. It may be the difficult conversation. But the other bit Professor Laurie Santos, who's at Harvard University, will say, remember, our brain doesn't always know what's good for us that sometimes we attract, and we build habits very, very quickly. And sometimes we need kicking ourselves out of those habits. So you know, sometimes people will say, Oh, it was really tiring, because I was out all day. And of course, being physically tired, you may have taken energy from it, but be physically tired and tired. This helps us to sleep, and good sleep helps you to be able to so you know, it's just working through talking through all of those things. But I absolutely agree with you there is no one size fits all, but we need to be having the conversation and not not just accept status quo and, and to keep trying new things. We're going to be learning stuff for a very, very long time now. But we're not going we're not going back. We're only going forward. So what is it that we've got to keep and take and build going forward? And I guess the the other bits which have been there is for me, people who have started to work, you started their careers? Yes. In a time, when everything is up in the air. What edition are we doing in order to make sure that they have the support that they need to be able to develop habits, working habits which support their well being which support their performance, which enable them to develop and grow which enabled them to contribute, to share and to learn? And again that there is no one way but I'm sure lots of us learnt by overhearing people and by copying people and hi identifying people that we're going to be people we wanted to mentor us, you know, either formally or informally. And so how do we create those opportunities and make sure that we're not reinforcing? And, and locking in problems which will come up five years 10 years time?

Chris Rainey 44:33

Yeah. There's an could talk about this forever with you. parting piece of advice before we let you go, what would be your parting advice to our audience, which are predominately HR leaders, with employees all over the world right to global brands typically. And so where can people connect with you if they want to reach out to you personally?

Simon Blake 44:53

Let's do the easy question. First. How do people connect with me so, Mental Health First Aid England our website Is MHFA england.org. And we can be reached via that. And similarly, LinkedIn MHFA, England, probably the easiest ways to do so and very happy if we can put that in the show notes, that would be great. Terms of the single piece of advice, I guess for me the bit is, isn't this amazing that we're here having this conversation, and let's enjoy the conversation and the process, starting from that sense that we are so much further on than we were 10 years ago. And we're going to be so much further on again in five years time. But at its heart, all of this conversation has to be designed around work designed well, is good for us. And, and that our job, therefore is to design it as well as we can and make sure there's support when people need it. And if we can all come to the table with that mindset. Your work is great. Yeah, but it's, but you've got to have that sense of, we want to really be focused on well being have it at the heart of the performance strategy. And make sure that when people need support in whatever way in whatever shape, it's there, and it's available.

Chris Rainey 46:15

Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. And yes, for everyone listening, all those links are below. Also, you're set you're on LinkedIn yourself.

Simon Blake 46:23

I am on LinkedIn, myself, Simon Blake into first aid England, I don't know.

Chris Rainey 46:29

Wherever you're listening, watching right now, all the links have been a chat. But I appreciate you coming on, obviously, a love to what you're doing. And I'm really interested for organizations to connect with you in the team, as well, because you've already worked with so many amazing organizations to impact millions of people's lives. So pretty good reason, a good purpose to get up every day and do and go and go to work. Right? Absolutely.

Simon Blake 46:49

And we trained our millionth person in the last couple of weeks since MHFA. England was was born in England, we trained a million people. So that was quite a milestone.

Chris Rainey 46:58

You know, I can only imagine the ripple effect that that has on on everyone else as well. Actually,

Simon Blake 47:05

can I say cheeky thank you to anybody who has Mental Health First Aid trained, who's doing that help and support and looking after themselves that day. So thank you all for all the work that you're doing. Thank you for having me.

Chris Rainey 47:15

Thanks. wish all the best

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