How to Turn People Strategy Into Profit Strategy
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we sit down with Jamie Durling, Vice President Human Resources, Americas & South Africa at DOLCE&GABBANA, to unpack how HR leaders can drive real business impact by aligning people strategy with profit strategy.
Jamie walks us through his journey from retail to luxury fashion, the power of understanding productivity metrics, and how HR can step beyond the traditional people function to influence the P&L. This conversation is a must for HR professionals ready to collaborate with finance, lead through complexity, and make culture a measurable growth engine.
🎓 In this episode, Jamie discusses:
Building values-based cultures that scale with global growth
Why strong HR-finance relationships unlock better business decisions
Lessons from leading through M&A, rapid expansion, and restructuring
How to connect workforce planning and productivity directly to revenue
Why HR must understand financial metrics like payroll percentage and profit margin
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Jamie Durling 0:00
HR leaders play the very influential role in the strategy the organization and HR leaders need to really step up to the plate. HR best friend is finance. So for those HR leaders out there, I always encourage them to AI learn finance math, the more that HR understands finance, the more that they're able to tie what they're doing to the bottom line, but really using that to influence the strategy of the organization, once HR professionals are able to speak to the finance so the numbers of the business and sit down with the CFO and the CEO and the head of the commercial business, and tie that all in together. There's very little that they can influence and accomplish in the world. And people may get confused, like, why does this guy have security as part of his job? But the business people will soon start to really appreciate it. That is one thing I would love all HR people to really take home they play an important role in the strategy the organization, and they can influence it, and they have a key job in driving the profitability of the company. I think HR people don't realize how influential they can be. You you.
Chris Rainey 1:33
Jamie, welcome to the show, my friend. How are you? Thanks so much, Chris. I'm well. How are you? I'm good. Apparently you're on my side of the world today. I
Jamie Durling 1:42
swam across the pond. I did. I just landed. I landed a few hours ago from New York. Amazing, amazing flight. Amazing, you know, service at the hotel, not really. I had some challenges with the flight, which is pretty standard nowadays, yeah. But, you know, I got here in one piece, and everything's good So, and I'm very, very delighted to be back in London. I miss London a whole lot. I spent a
Chris Rainey 2:06
lot of time here. You know, when you do the airplane stuff, I hate when they tell you something's wrong, because it just makes me anxious. Like, last time was going to New York, they were, like, an hour late, and they were like, Yeah, we were struggling to get when the engine started. Oh, that's not good. And I'm like, great, and I already have anxiety. And then they brought like, this machine out onto the runway to jump start the engine. And I'm like, Really, that's what we're doing, and that's what we're doing in 2025 we're jump starting, I'm selling an engine, an engine. And then they were like, Oh, actually, we can't say forgot take off, because the air conditioner is not working. So it was like 35 degrees in there, and they had another machine come. I was like, to pump in fresh air into the cabin. And I was like, I want to
Jamie Durling 2:52
get off. Yeah, at that point, it's time to get on another plane. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 2:56
And people were freaking out. I have anxiety, so I also struggling. And then, like, there were some people like dying and they didn't have water. They weren't even giving out water on the plane, right? So yeah, anyways, this, I hope, hope that doesn't happen again, because that was pretty traumatic. But you're here now. First of all, thank you for coming and on the show, given the fact you just flown in. So I appreciate you.
Jamie Durling 3:14
Of course, of course, it's a delight to to be meeting with you. Yeah, before
Chris Rainey 3:18
we jump in, tell everyone a little bit more about your background and your your journey to where we are now.
Jamie Durling 3:25
Great. I I predominantly my career has been in retail. I've spent a little bit of time outside of the retail and luxury industry. But you know, when I was 16 years old, the coolest thing in the world was to work at the gap, and I couldn't wait and to get to get my first job. And I did. And I was folding jeans and T shirts, you know, from when I was 16 and I was, you know, I thought it was the, the most prestigious job to ever, you know, have and, and I got a great discount, but it was a good, no, it was an amazing company, but that's where I started to be, to be frank, and and I went to University in Boston, and in university, I was working, and somebody came to me and said, Hey, why don't you apply for at that point, there was A program called the management development program. And I did, and I got into the management development
Chris Rainey 4:25
program at gal what from the store, anywhere from the store, from the store. Amazing. It
Jamie Durling 4:29
was in the store. So it was a retail management development program. So I went from, you know, folding jeans and T shirts to basically folding jeans and T shirts, but having keys to the store and and, but, you know, rotating through the different areas of retail management. You know, in the field, visual merchandising operations, all different leadership roles within retail and so at a very young age, while I was in university, I was learning about how to run a retail business in a retail. Store, and they actually put us through classes, and we had projects to work on, and we partnered together across different, you know, different locations within our district and region. And so it was an amazing development program. And so that's what really got me exposed to the HR world. I'd already been in retail for a little bit as a kid, and so when I was in university, I was pre med, and I was doing really well. And then I took organic chemistry, that was a little bit challenging for me, and I was less interested in that, and more interested in psychology and the business aspect of things. And so I started to really flourish in in, you know, with the Psych and the organization within the business school, and so I shifted, I changed my major, switched my major to psychology. And then
Chris Rainey 5:55
how did you family take that?
Jamie Durling 5:57
They were fine. Nobody really understood what that meant. Like, what are you going to do with a psychology degree? That's good, you know, basically, growing up, I could be a doctor or a lawyer. That's it, you know, but, but that wasn't the that wasn't the direction I wanted to go in. And so it was fine. I mean, I was super studious, and I they knew I was driven, and so
Chris Rainey 6:23
they knew you're gonna, yeah, for sure,
Jamie Durling 6:26
you know, there would be success, ups and ups and downs, but, but certainly, you know, I would, there would be achievements and learnings. And so I, you know, that's what, I switched my major and and it was amazing, because I was working at this point and learning how to be a retail leader in the field, how to manage people, supervise people, develop employees, manage a, you know, the operations of a store. And, you know, I worked in locations that I think some of the stores did, 20 plus million US dollars, so big a store, a store huge, huge volume for fast fashion, you know, for for fast fashion. So it was an amazing experience and opportunity. And I remember being so grateful and so thankful to have had it. And so I was applying in business, the things that I was learning in school, because I had already shifted my studies to business, essentially business psychology. And then as I was learning things in, you know, in the field, as an employee, I was bringing them back to the class, and I was challenging the professors and saying, no, wait, but this is the reality. And, you know, but you know, I know best practice, and you know, this is the study, but this is how it really works. This is my experience. And that was interesting dialog. You know,
Chris Rainey 7:55
professors, were they receptive?
Jamie Durling 7:57
Yeah, yeah, they were. Because I don't think many people, kids, to be to be honest, really had that experience, you know, at a young age, and my family didn't have a whole lot of money, so I had to work if I wanted to, you know, enjoy myself, or buy, buy things. I needed to work and I needed to earn the money. So my family was fortunate enough to I was fortunate enough to be able to go to school and my family to help me with that. But when it came to sort of eating money and, you know, and going out and, you know, trying to have some fun that came out of my own pocket, so, but it taught me a whole lot. It really did. And the professors were receptive, and I was able to apply the learnings from school to the business world as well, to, you know, to retail. And so that's where I started. That's where, you know, I owe my career, really, to that organization. I think very, very highly of that organization. The CEO of the time was a gentleman named Mickey druxler. He is, uh, the chairman of a brand called, I think the name of the brand is called Alex Mill right now, and he is a powerhouse and and I really I owe my career to that organization, and I owe my career to him. He doesn't know me, but, but I really do. So that's where I started. And you know, from there I was in, I graduated, and I knew already I needed to get, you know, get a graduate degree. And so I was debating whether or not I wanted to get a master's degree or a PhD. And as I was researching universities, predominantly in the New York metro area, because that's where I'm from, and I wanted to move back down to New York, I was discouraged at that time from getting my PhD and pursuing my doctorate. And the reason why is because the professors at the universities were saying and some of the mentors that I had were saying that I would not be taken serious. Seriously as a business professional, which it's shifted now this was,
Chris Rainey 10:05
it would not be, I
Jamie Durling 10:07
would not be taken seriously as a business professional. If you got what, my PhD, interesting, my my doctorate,
Chris Rainey 10:16
so they would see, okay, I get it because, yeah, they're like, Hey, you're not, you're not practical, yeah,
Jamie Durling 10:22
yeah, yeah, more theoretical, research based, and not practical. And I wanted to practice. That was very, very important to me, that I practiced, you know, and I was doing that even through university, yeah, you know, when I was in my undergraduate University, I was, I was working and schooling and and applying the learnings from both and I wanted to do that, you know, in graduate school, and then, and then after that, of course. And so I was discouraged. And that was the movement. And this was in 2001 it's very different. Now you have organizations and companies purposefully hiring PhDs, especially in the areas, you know, in in what I'm, what I am, I'm an industrial and organizational psychologist. They're, they're hiring us now as a PhD but, but it was different back then, but it's, you know, no loss, because I had tremendous experience and exposure, and so got my studied my masters back down in New York, in the New York metro area. And as part of that program, I selected this university because it balanced research and practitioner the research practitioner model. And so what that means is that part of the schooling was research based, which was still very, very important, especially some of the statistics and, you know, the analysis part. But then it was also very much focused on the business part and the practicing, so applying the learnings in the real world. And so the program itself encouraged the students, and actually required the students to have an internship. And so they would you either could work, and if the job that you had was applicable to the studies it was that would count as your internship class, if not you, they would help you find a paid internship. And through that, I, at that point, I had left gap, and through that, I was able to work for some pretty cool organizations. You know, I worked in finance. I be complete, you know, different, different world than where I am now. But I had an opportunity to work at the largest bank in the world and,
Chris Rainey 12:41
but within HR, I took it within, within
Jamie Durling 12:44
HR, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris Rainey 12:48
So, how do you go from there to where you are now then, because, I mean, we've got a lot to get into questions wise, how did you go from there to where we are now? Yeah,
Jamie Durling 12:56
so I so from there, I graduated, went into luxury goods, got recruited at my first luxury goods organization at Bulgaria. I was in jewelry and watches for the majority of my, you know, early part of my career, I left, I did a lot of consulting, and then got back into the organization, back into the business world as an internal employee within trade show and media, which is where my experience and exposure are.
Chris Rainey 13:27
Yes, exactly. So Informa was a company that was trying to headhunt me every year, yes.
Jamie Durling 13:33
So the company that I went through two acquisitions, and the last acquisition was informa. But, you know, informa markets and so that organization, the company, prior to Informa, was UBM, yeah, my office, yeah, United Business Media and so, and they were acquired by informa. But UBM sent me to to to Hong Kong. And so I had the opportunity as an HR professional to move to Hong Kong and then, and then come back for just over a year, I was over there, and actually tonight, I'm having dinner with one of my mentors that I worked very closely with in Hong Kong and London. Nice. So, yeah, yeah, it was great. So that's what got me back into the world of, let's say, Fashion and Retail, because we really owned the the fashion industry when it came to trade show. Oh, yeah. And of course, you did through that, I got exposed or re exposed, let's say, to people who I had sort of known in the industry. Crazy. Yeah. It's funny how it works.
Chris Rainey 14:35
That's crazy. Coincidental you that happens to be one of the biggest like events and trade shows that they do, and it happens to be within the space that you're now back in. And that was, yeah, when that was in as well, somebody
Jamie Durling 14:47
saw me, Yeah, somebody saw me at magic in Las Vegas, which is, is, it's the largest fashion trade show in the world, yeah, and, and it's amazing. It's business to business. But somebody, you. Recognize me from the past, and then that's what sort of triggered me getting back into it. And then I switched. I eventually left, left Informa, and then went to Montclair. And then that's what brought me back into the
Chris Rainey 15:13
luxury world, yeah. And now you're like, I'm staying, yeah, in the luxury space now. Now, how long have you been D and G now for a year and a half, nice, amazing. Yeah, I was just thinking about the whole story, right? Imagine if you never applied for that first program management
Jamie Durling 15:33
program. Yeah, I would not be where I am today. Isn't
Chris Rainey 15:37
that interesting? That one choice, I always look back at those choices in my life. Like, imagine if I went left or rather than Right. Like, where would I be right now? You know, like my whole career in HR came from asking two strangers that when I was 16, saying, If I beat you at a Paul game, you have to give me a job interview that led to that job at the World Trade group, which has been my entire career, for 20 years. Imagine if I never went over and said, Hey, I want to interview your company. If I beat you at Paul like, if I never did that, where would I be? Where would you be right now? You
Jamie Durling 16:11
would be somewhere. I mean, the thing is, and I think, with people like us, you know, I as I shared, I'm driven. Yeah, you're driven as well. I mean, you were in sports and and clearly so you would be somewhere. And I believe you would be successful. I believe I would be successful. I don't know if I would be where I am today. You know what? I mean, it's a different industry, or you maybe I would be living in a different
Chris Rainey 16:37
part of the world, but it would be,
Jamie Durling 16:39
yeah, it is, it is.
Chris Rainey 16:40
I one of the things that I have, which is one of the bullet points you sent over, which I'm going to steal, by the way, which I love was one of the bullet points was turning people strategy into profit strategy, which I when I went, as soon as I read that, I was like, that could be a whole book. I was like, I'm thinking about what topic to write on a new book. And I was like, turning people strategy. And went to profit strategy is probably is probably a good a good book title, and could be helpful in many ways. I wanted to start a conversation there, because I feel like that is a fascinating topic, you know. So on that point, you know, how do you align org design, workforce planning productivity with revenue margin? Because that's really what businesses are looking for from their HR function.
Jamie Durling 17:25
Yeah, it's what they're looking for from the HR function, whether or not the HR function is able to give it to them as another that's sort of another story. I you know, I started out really focusing on employee productivity very early on in my career, and it was because of the retail training that I had from back in the day at gapping the management development program that you know, if I didn't take I might be, I might have turned left as opposed to turning right and being a different place. That's where it started. But really the training around around tying employee productivity to the bottom line was really reinforced at my time at Montclair, and it was they, there was just an article that came out regarding Montclair being, honestly the most profitable organization. I think potentially it's on par with Hermes, but it is more profitable than LVMH and certainly caring and, you know, all of the other, majority of the other brands. So because there was such a focus on operational efficiency and productivity at that organization, I was tasked with, how do I get my employees and the the team members within the organization to to really be engaged with the business, to feel that they're supported, but also ensuring that they are performing at the highest level? So productivity is a simple Can you
Chris Rainey 19:01
give simple math equation? Yeah, practical examples, everyone?
Jamie Durling 19:05
Yeah, yeah. So, so let me explain what I think it's important to explain what productivity is and the answer it's it's not the answer to everything. It's part of it. But this is how you link productivity to the bottom line, and then ultimately the top line. So productivity, in its simplest form is, is your your total sales, your labor expense, divided by your total sales, and so, and that's your productivity. So it's essentially what you're saying is, is, you know, your average FTE is generating. It could be anything, 400,000 euro, 700,000 euro, a million euro, whatever, whatever, whatever that productivity number is, and it varies based on organization, the higher the productivity, obviously, the more that they generate. As long as you keep your your operating expense, your personnel cost, relatively flat, the more that the employee generates. Are, the more productive they are, if you're keeping the cost of personnel flat. And so that directly impacts the bottom line, because you're not spending more money on the employee, but you're generating more revenue. So that's where this concept of turning not really concept this, this focus on turning people strategy into profit strategy comes into play. So the the more that you engage your employee population. And I've really focused on this, and given the right hire, they're hiring the right people, ensuring that they're trained effectively in the retail world, ensuring that they have the right product knowledge and the right skill set, that we're incentivizing them correctly from a variability standpoint, you know, especially in luxury with commission, and that we're managing that performance and the cost of these employees. You see, the employees thrive, and employees don't necessarily mind generating more revenue. Why? Because in the luxury world, they're getting more money in their pocket because they're getting more commission. And then, from an employee, employer standpoint, the commission that you're spending is always in line, obviously, with the revenue. So, so you're never overspending on commission, because it's just online,
Chris Rainey 21:25
yeah, you only, you only pay. It's like in the informal hours, right? You know, it's very high sales, but you're only paying commission when you're making money, right? 100%
Jamie Durling 21:34
so, yeah, so if you're always winning, you're not, you're not paying the commission. Yeah. So this is where, you know, and I really owe it to. I owe the the I want to say, the science behind it to to my time there and and my mentors in, you know, in that organization. And that's where the concept of what I had in my head over the years, that and that, all that I was already applying in the business world really took to a little bit more of a slightly formulaic mathematical equation, let's say. And it's interesting, because now you have HR sitting with finance and sitting with the CEO and sitting with with the retail leadership, and really having conversations and dialogs regarding performance. And it's not about your performance rating, it's about performance of the employee of top line sales, you know, and and so the conversations that we would have regarding schedule and workforce optimization, which is a big focus on profit strategy, because the more optimized your workforce is, the more profitable you become as an organization, your HR is able to really stand on its own and earn its seat at the table. And so that's what happened. And I was fortunate, because I had great colleagues and amazing finance mentors, and that started at UVM and informal markets. And so I had finance people teaching me the P and L, teaching me operating expenses and how the OPEX impacts the profitability. And nobody really had ever taken the time to teach me that before, and so I now am. I'm earning this, this knowledge regarding finance, going into the read, back into the retail world, and now applying it from a personnel and people perspective, and in this case, a workforce optimization perspective. So,
Chris Rainey 23:51
right? You can have people and leadership.
Jamie Durling 23:56
That's a P and L, but it is so, so you, you know, it's interesting, because you start to build, I mean, this is how I would build a budget. You know, you build the budget based off of, off of a productivity target, and based off of a payroll percent, you know, the percent of sales. So you know how much you can spend on the personnel, and you know the you can't really spend too much more because that then then what you have budgeted, but you can spend more as long as you're generating more revenue, and it's just so incrementally more so that this way you ensure that the employee population has enough support to convert the sales. And so this is, again, back to where workforce optimization comes in. So there's I've been talking a lot about workforce optimization and profit when it comes to personnel. And it's really not just about driving the most out of the employees. It's having them become. Them the most engaged, so that they feel that they want to convert the clients and that they want to, you know, drive top line sales and and it's more than just the the commission programs, right? It's, it's really about the culture and about the energy and feeling that they understand the part in the role that they play. And so again, now I'm sitting at the table, and I remember conversations over the course of my career, over the past eight years, where retail leadership would come and say, oh, you know, Jamie, I need 10 more FTE in these locations. And I'd say, great, but you know, these locations are under productive. If you can generate an additional 3 million euro, I can give you the 10 FTE. When was the last time you heard somebody from HR? Link, yeah, employee cost and personnel to top line sales. So I'm literally telling retail, you know, basically give me three more million dollars and I'll give you more head count. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 26:11
yeah. I've got so many questions. How does that change? Though, you're the way you think, in terms of the org design, though, to make that, to bring that to life, right? You've explained the mechanism, which makes sense. I think everyone can agree with that, but what you changing from a org design and a cultural what some of the specific examples you can share that moved a needle? Yeah,
Jamie Durling 26:31
so org design. Org design is different from Workforce Management and optimization. So the the org design isn't, is really about having the right positions, so that for the locations, you know, essentially the right levels and the right the right positions. So as long as you set, and I've done a lot of work on this, also right so in retail, for instance, you typically classify locations in tiers. Ai refers to them as tiers or groupings. So you might have a store that is a low volume store, maybe it's 2 million or two to $5 million or euro per year, or pounds, and then you sort of move up. And so you cluster stores that are similar revenue type together. And then from that, you say, this type of a store generates this volume and requires this these types of positions, right? So, you know, a flagship location will need a store director, different, different level assistant managers, so on and so forth, operations, etc. That's org design. Once you set that, of course, you need to review it, but you typically don't have to review it as frequently as you need to with the the workforce optimization and the budget management. And so I think what you're asking, the question that you're asking, is that, so what would happen is, is we knew the positions that we needed in each store, and so once we would have the revenue target for the following year, and this is budget planning, we would also know we would be given by finance the ideal payroll percent, so the percent of sales, basically how much money I could spend of the of the total revenue. And from that, we would have our productivity target. And from the productivity target, we would essentially build the FTE, this is how much FTE we can have in the organization. And then we would look at the structure of each store, the historical structure that we would carry over from the year before and then build it out. And so we would literally do it by month, by employee, by store, and look at if we had the same positions with the same sort of schedule or the same cost per month. What would that turn, you know, result in from a productivity standpoint? And then that's where the tweaking is. And then that's how you ensure that you meet your financial targets. But then that's where the the the the conversations happen with the retail organization. Because you you can look at the math, you can look at the numbers and say, This is what the numbers require. But then the business will say, Yeah, but I really need this number of people in this location for X, Y and Z reason. And then we have a dialog, and oftentimes it's because there's two floors or there's multiple entrances or exits, and so you may need a lower productivity in one location just to make sure that it's appropriately staffed. So that's how you basically design the structure of a budget when it comes to personnel cost. And so you build it based off finance, and then you have the conversation, right? Guarding what the store needs are on the location needs are, and then there's basically, you know, negotiation back and forth, which is appropriate.
Chris Rainey 30:08
Of course, does this? I'm sure everyone listening, it's really easy to map it out when you talk about, specifically from a sales perspective, in a retail environment, how does this translate to digital products, or, you know, it could be like, you know, an internet business, an app business, something outside of retail. Have you tried to apply that in the same area? Does it work exactly the same?
Jamie Durling 30:33
Yeah, so I haven't tried to apply it in the same area, but it does yet. I've been thinking a whole lot about this and having conversations with colleagues outside of the industry, the answer is yes, it can. 100% applies. It applies to any sales organization. It is agnostic to a product. It doesn't matter what the product is, because it sells, right? So you're just like Informa and UBM. You know, your average account executive at UBM could be generating X amount of of revenue. And so once you establish the productivity targets for any sales organization, you can measure, you know, you can manage the structure and the headcount based off of that productivity target. You know, it's very, very interesting where this applies also is in the healthcare industry. So doctors are measured on their productivity, at least, I can speak in the States, especially for the hospital systems. You know, the big, big hospital systems like NYU, they're measured on productivity, and so they're bonus based off of the productivity. The more money that these doctors generate for, you know, for the hospital system, the higher their bonus is. So they are incentivized to see more patients, which is the same thing as converting more clients in a retail store. It's the same thing.
Chris Rainey 32:06
Yeah, it applies to any sales. I'm just thinking more of like an FMCG type environment. But to your point, they still have Salesforce who got who got to sell and do those deals. But it's so I mean, what your example is so relatable to me in terms of how I run up this company and how I did in the world trade group like the previous events business was exactly the same as well. I think the piece, piece we were missing, which we'll talk about now, is the cultural piece. So linking this back to values based culture, that was not something, unfortunately, it was more of a, you know, kind of smash the phone grind environment. There was no, you know, I wasn't here because I really loved the culture of the business. It was like, I want to make my commission and leave. Unfortunately, that was kind of the environment it was in. How did you build that in? Because that's your point. You don't need, don't need, don't need to then motivate people. People already self motivated to go above and beyond the next the and stretch themselves.
Jamie Durling 33:09
So I'm going to disagree with you there. People are not necessarily self motivation, motivated to stretch themselves. People are motivated to make the money, at least in a sales organization that you know is commission based, they are motivated to make the money that they need to make to live the lifestyle that they want to live, but not the money that they have potentially the skill or The ability to make for themselves and for the organization, and so this is where culture and employee engagement comes in. So if there is a lack of understanding of how an employee in any sales organization, not just retail, directly impacts the strategy of the organization. What the strategy is, and strategy should be, very simple. It should be, I mean, the targets, you know, it should be, you know, two to three. Here are the things that we're going to focus on achieving this year. We're going to do X, Y, Z, usually it's a revenue number. And then there's a couple of other things. If they don't understand how their job and how they as an individual, directly impacts those three three things, then they're not going to push themselves to to drive and convert even more. They're going to do it just to make sure that they get the money that they need to get. I agree they want to look.
Chris Rainey 34:43
I agree on that. Because I then, when I first realized that, was when I when I was in the sales role as a sales director, I saw, like, the famous TED Talk to Simon Sinek. Start with, why? Yeah, start with, and I remember, like, watching that on lunch, being like, I. Beyond me fighting for my commission to buy what I wanted to your point, because that's all. That's all I cared about, like, achieving, saving my deposit or buying X. I was like, Why do I What is my why? Like, why? And how is that connected to the businesses? Why? And it was for the first time, I was like, How can I not answer that question? That's crazy, that I don't know what my role is in the bigger picture and how I'm impacting the business. And that really struck me at that moment. I remember that Vivian,
Jamie Durling 35:28
it's super impactful. And to be frank, most in most organizations, I would say a lot of most employees are not able to to actually, you know, I cannot think, verbalize and articulate how they individually, you know, drive, drive the strategy the organization and and I don't want to say that that I was part of solving that puzzle, but, but it certainly there was a major focus on ensuring that there was education and communication with the employee population, and so this is where culture, values and engagement comes into play. And really the way that it starts is with ensuring that people understand employees understand I'm going to bring it back to retail, because it's relatively simple. Here is the stores goal for the year. Here's the store's goal. Here's the, you know, the conversion number that we want to achieve. And, you know, usually some level of repurchase rate, or units per transaction, so the quality of the sale, basically, and companies measure it by different things. And so if they know that, and they know what the company is doing overall, as a, you know, as a region or as a global organization, they can recite those things. That's a first step. The second piece that's super, super critical is understanding and having a relationship with leadership in the organization. And when I say leadership, I don't necessarily just mean your direct manager. I mean a relationship, be it personal or even something through video with with the top leaders and the top executives in the organization. Oftentimes, we don't hear enough from the CEOs and the CFOs and the CHROs of the organizations. And sometimes, when we do hear it is a canned communication. It lacks personality and personal touch. And so what became a major focus of mine throughout my career, but I would say, especially over the past 10 years, is ensuring that the senior leaders in the organization communicated with the employees. And what does that mean? It could be, from a retail standpoint, actually going into a store and saying hello to the employees and just talking with them on the floor from a like a larger standpoint, a country wide standpoint, or global standpoint. It could be recording a video and sending the video out. Or now we're living in 2025 to your point earlier, sending a text message out to the employee population. You know, there was a leader. I don't remember his name, but years ago, it was the head of sales. I think it was at Salesforce that every Friday would send a video out to the whole sales team of his organization. And it could be, you know, as short as 30 seconds. It could be as long as five minutes. And he could be drinking a Corona on, you know, the beach, somewhere in the Caribbean, or in his office, or somewhere in the field, meeting with a client. Every Friday, he would record a video and send it out. And the consistency was really important, and the personal touch was really important. And sometimes it was about the business, and sometimes it was about, you know, the experience he had, you know, on holiday and what was going on. That the relationship that employees have with a leader like that is very strong. And so when you tie in the understanding of what the individual's targets are, what the department's targets are, what the company's targets are, with the person who's sort of directing it, then you get emotional commitment, yeah, and you link, then the person says, I want to do better, not just for myself, your point, I want to do better for the organization. And that's where you start to to untap the potential.
Chris Rainey 39:50
Yeah, I think kind of like in the past that we in that same business that you, you know from the back, from the past, we, we managed to create that within our. Own team ecosystem, but not for the whole business. So we kind of make, kind of create a, kind of a subculture in our team that it went from us like, like us versus each other, to you know, us like, you know, really what I remember a point where one of our sales guys was behind on his sales target, and the entire team stayed behind to all pitching to get a deal in to give to that person so they would hit their commission bracket. And I was like, wow, this is different from when I started, when it was everyone against everyone. And, you know, we would eat together, we would train together outside. You know, we built, you know, that bond we had excited our shared vision board so everyone knew what everyone was trying to achieve. Because when I came into that business, it was you almost were told by your manager that you're like against each other. Like to achieve that as well. But I don't never think like we managed to succeed on a company level to connect that to the wider company purpose. You know, which is so sure, which is so strong now, and honestly, I feel like that was the first point of watching that video that led me to leave the company. That was like, that was the starting point, because I couldn't get out my head. I'd come into, I would come in, and then, obviously I was making good money. I was a sales director at the time, and I was like, why am I here? I remember even asking my team in our management meetings, and there was no clear answers. There's no answers. There's like, it was just to make more money. That's the why, as you said, Yeah. I was like, but that's not, that's not the why. Like, yeah, but we need to make more, but what, but why? And then I just Yeah, and I feel like I sell my, like, my six year old daughter, where she's always asking me, daddy, but why? I'm like, because I said so, which is basically what I was being told internally in that business. But I love that. I think it's super interesting. And honestly, kind of, I was there for 10 years, and part of that was I kind of felt like, you know, that organization had given so much and it meant so much to me, and I love the team, but it was more of like, Hey, I've personally hit a ceiling and there's nowhere else to go. Like, I was asking for opportunities outside of what I was doing. I did the same job for 10 years. I was like, Okay, I need to, I need to leave. You
Jamie Durling 42:09
needed some. You needed some. Yeah. I was like,
Chris Rainey 42:12
yeah, exactly what's
Jamie Durling 42:15
important. And, you know, that had the same thing happened to me, Chris, when it came to, you know, asking for more, or, you know, something else and something different. At one of my one of my organizations, my team, used to say that I was more of a chief operating officer than I was just ahead of HR. Because I was, I would lean into these areas that we're not necessarily just HR, so I can get exposure, but also get, yeah, just keep my interest. I used to get in trouble.
Chris Rainey 42:47
Did you get in trouble at any point for that? Like I used to get, like I used to, I mean, I say trouble, but, I mean, I I remember, like I would want to partner closely with, with marketing and finance, and I would reach out, and I kind of would get the reaction from the the executive team, like, what are you doing? Like, stay out, stay in your lane, in your lane. And I'm like, wait a minute. I'm trying to figure out how we all work together to be serve our customers better, right? Like, what I remember getting told staying basically, not in those exact words, but stay in your lane. I was like, why that's crazy. Like, yeah,
Jamie Durling 43:21
yeah. I never, I never really got in trouble. I think there was, there was some confusion, you know, not on my end, but within the
Chris Rainey 43:32
organization. So, I mean, yeah, you
Jamie Durling 43:34
know, it was, I remember, in one of the organizations that I, that I was with. I had safety, security and asset protection underneath my my responsibility, and that was a big deal. And what, what? Why is it sitting with? HR, you know, who the reality was, was, who is it? Who is it going to sit with? And the truth of the matter was, was that the reason why it ultimately sat with me was because I was the one who was truly advocating for the need for us to focus on as safety, security and asset protection. It was about the employee safety, you know, security of staff, of product, obviously an asset protection from an inventory management standpoint. And I was, I was, I was championing the need for this function. And so ultimately, they gave it to me and the Global Head of Security, you know, I had a good, great relationship with and thought it was appropriate, but it confused people, yeah, but that's why HR doing that. But that's
Chris Rainey 44:35
what happens when you create your own space. Sometimes you got to make your own space like, you know, I did. I did that in the last company. I kind of built new portfolios and pitched them to the CEO, went above my leadership, which, you know, didn't go down well at the time. But then they kind of, like, I kind of got frustrated. I was there for 10 years, and I was like, actually, I need to start making some waves, because I'm frustrated. So I'd go and pitch the CEO when no one's around. Blah. Like, this is my, this is my idea. Like, you know, our first payment gateway that we built, like, back then, it was like, all Invoicing is that old. I'm doing this 1020, years. Like, you'd invoice deals for, like, sponsorship or event sales. And I was like, there's this thing called Online Payment Gateways like, like, this is how old? Like, you know, what do you mean? I'm like, we've got 20 people in finance chasing invoices. And so I worked with it to integrate world pay, and I presented it to the team, and everyone lost their minds in a bad way. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, Guys, I'm just cutting down the time that you get your commission by like, hundreds of percent, like, and so all and then a few weeks wait later, they let go of that entire team, and I felt awful. But then all of a sudden, we the CEO was over the moon, because our cash flow was incredible, because everyone was paying by credit cards. All the sales people were over the moon because they were getting paid the Commission on time. But I still had that struggle internally, of like, you're here, I'm here. Don't ever go above my head. That literally, was the message I thought when my manager took me to meet and I was like, oh, gonna get congratulated? Like, I was like, really excited, and I got told, never do that, ever again. You're not allowed. I'm your boss. You don't go speak to the CEO to be able to do that. And that's the kind of the message internally, since it's
Jamie Durling 46:22
unfortunate, it's unfortunate. But the reality is that you know and what you're describing, and maybe what you learn now is, certainly, I've learned this over the course of my career, is is really understanding the culture of the organization, right? So, so we're talking about developing culture and values within an organization, and then using that to really drive engagement, and ultimately leading back to your first question regarding profit strategy and people strategy. But it's it really is about understanding the politics of an organization, understanding the culture of the organization, and the best way to go about achieving what it is that you feel is right for you and then for the company. And you know, how many times have I there's been something that I was in my mind, I felt was right, and then I would, you know, I was right, you know, maybe it could be the safety and security thing, you know, for instance, you know, I was right. The organization needed this. I I felt it, but I would, I would have a conversation with my my president and CEO. I would have a conversation with my closest colleague, who was the regional CFO, and then I would test it out, and sort of litmus test it and see and then, and then, before I would present it to my big, big bosses in Europe, I would say, all right, who are the key people that are either a going to be sensitive because they're going to feel that we're stepping on their territory, or B, are the decision makers that ultimately are going to I'm going to use the word champion again. Champion. This, this idea. And so it's about socializing the ideas in the right way. And I think you learned, you learned that the hard way, right? I learned that the hard way, 100% Yeah, now you know how to go about doing it, and I learned it the hard way as well. You know? I was
Chris Rainey 48:16
impatient. I was a very impatient. I saw a solution, and I just went straight.
Jamie Durling 48:21
You want to go, you want to you want to achieve it with the quickest way to get to the solution. And sometimes, unfortunately, and this is true from an HR standpoint, and it's frustrating. It's frustrating because you can say, What, wait, I can cut, I can either save the company money or over these next three months. You know, if you go about it, the the best way of doing it, it might take you three months to get agreement, alignment, social, you know, socialization, all of that. But over the three months, the company is spending money and losing money. But for it to really stick, you might need to sort of sacrifice yourself. How do you
Chris Rainey 48:56
compromise, though? Because I think before that, I had gone to those leaders many, many times I've been shot down. So that's why I was like, All right, I'm not even gonna go to now. I'm just gonna go straight, however you approach that. Have you just kind of learned to be, you know, you're not gonna win all the battles. Because I'm like, I'm getting shot down constantly, you know. And I'm like,
Jamie Durling 49:18
part of it, you know, for me, my, you know, my experience is having the relationships with the the senior folks, and having the senior folks ask for the support directly from from someone like yourselves. I have another example. I mean, we're going back to the trade show and media days, you know, the the I remember the global CFO, of the organization that I was with, specifically asked that I participate in in an activity that was being led by the finance team and her organization globally. And so she asked for it. I did not suggest it. Yeah. But because I had this relationship with her, it was, it sort of came from the top down, as opposed to the bottom up, which I know ideally it's from the bottom up, but you get if top down directive comes from the CFO, nobody's really going to question it, right? If the CEO went to your boss and said, I want Chris to work on this project, your boss isn't gonna say, No,
Chris Rainey 50:23
yeah, but I've had that, but and then, but then it's like, why did the CEO ask for you? I feel like it was just one of those cultures where, like, it was just, like, a very high security, yeah. I mean, because I we, I got, I remember my boss coming to me. Were like, Why have you been invited to this leadership retreat in Miami? And I was like, what Andy's asked for you to be there to see you. And I was like, I don't know. He's like, No, but why? I was like, I generally don't know. And CEO, don't ask me. I don't know, yeah. And that's where I presented the payment thing. And everyone was like, Who is this? Because I was a sales manager at the time, and they were all directors. Normally only directors Go on, get invited, and they're like, Chris is going to present how we're going to change how we do our favorites. And I just remember everyone's face. And we had the team flying from Singapore, the team from the US, the team from London, and I could see everyone looking at me like, What are you doing here? How dare you I'll be here. But anyway, this, they're still the funny thing is that, like, probably, like, probably, like, a year later, everyone was really thankful. It was like, Thank you, Chris. I get my commission on time. Now we really appreciate and our customers loved it. It was more of a customer. How you doing faxes? This is kind of crazy. Yeah, I do. I could talk to you forever. I realize it's been an hour and you probably need to get some sleep at some point, because you're just flown in as well. But I pre what, what is anything we haven't covered, that we should, that we that we missed, or you covered quite a lot, but just wondering if anything we missed, I should have asked you,
Jamie Durling 51:49
I think, for you know, for me, the importance of HR being a true business leader, and I've sort of, it's been at the crux of our conversation, you know so far, but reinforcing this point that HR leaders play, have a very influential role in the organization, in the strategy the organization and and HR Leaders need to really step up to the plate. And I say this a lot hrs best friend is finance. So for those HR leaders out there, even or even younger HR folks who are starting in their career, I always encourage them to AI learn finance math, you know, because this, the more that HR understands finance, the more that they're able to tie what they're doing, as I've been talking about, to the bottom line, yeah, but then, but really using that to influence the strategy of the organization and and once HR professionals are able to Speak to the finance so the numbers of the business, and sit down with the CFO and the CEO and and, you know, the head of the commercial business, and tie that all in together. They there's very little that they can influence and accomplish, you know, in the world, and people may get confused, like people were confused, like, why does this guy have security, you know, as part of his job? But they'll soon, the business people will soon start to really appreciate it. And so for me, that is one thing I would really love all HR people to really take home that are hearing this is that they play an important role in the strategy the organization, and they can influence it and and they play a valuable they have a key job in driving the profitability of the company. So it's a passion of mine. It really, really is, I think people HR, people don't realize how influential they can be. Yeah, no,
Chris Rainey 54:02
I agree. And I think I really appreciate you coming on and sharing, breaking really, breaking it down for everyone, which is really, which is really interesting and practical for everyone, the way you broke it down. And we always, we still hear people talk about, oh, you need to understand the business. That's not enough, like just understanding how your business makes money. You hear that all the time, right? I'm like, no, no. That's, that's like stage one, like you need to really understand the numbers like you're saying. And the most successful HLA is I speak to is exactly how you how you describe and and guess what? Those are the ones that don't struggle getting budget, no surprise, because they actually linking it back to the business, right? And so it's very clearly. And as you said, you can literally, probably, by the dollar, can account for that revenue, you know. And just to be able to how many leaders, HR, leaders can say that, I don't think that you know, that many, unfortunately, can to do that. Very last question, I've never asked some of this before because of where we started. You. If you didn't, if you weren't doing, HR, why do you think you'd be What do you think you were doing? Id, what do you think you'd be doing? Because of that first way we mentioned about left or right, I just
Jamie Durling 55:07
ran Yeah, left or right, yeah. Isn't a good question. I gotta give you the answer. I'm gonna give you the answer because I think it'll it's going to come across the wrong way. So I I've always wanted to be an actor.
Chris Rainey 55:26
I can see that. I don't know why, because we just met, but I can, but I can see it. I've always wanted to be an actor, really. That's so interesting, man. I mean, I grew up wanting to be a dancer, right? That was my first job. I was a professional dancer, but I feel like I loved the idea of it, but then when I became it, I it lost. I lost all the joy when it became my check, when I got the check for dancing, I was like, Oh, now it's my job, not my passion. I'm not saying you can't have both, by the way, because I love my job, but I do now, but there's something about dance being the escape for me and some of my friends, some of my friends who are actors have said the same thing, like, they love acting, and then when they get when they say, like they how they pay their mortgage, takes away a little bit of a joy. But I can see you being an
Jamie Durling 56:12
actor. I think it would be, it would be, I feel like it would be a lot of fun, and it would be interesting. There should be some good perks. Too late. It's never, it's never too late. It's never too late, you know, it's, I'm over 40 but, but at this point, you know, I think, I think it's possible, but, yeah, I would say acting.
Chris Rainey 56:35
Haven't you seen though, like those Instagram posts where it's like, Harrison Ford didn't get his first part, and he was like 40 something for 45 or something like that. You see, like all these actors, the start late. It's never too late, man. It's never too late. Oh well, it's I appreciate you coming on. Where can people connect with you? LinkedIn, best person
Jamie Durling 56:52
connect with me on LinkedIn, for sure. Yeah, just send me a direct message. Amazing. Responsive so and
Chris Rainey 56:58
for everyone listen as always. The link will be below, so you don't need to worry about finding the link. It'll be LinkedIn. Link will be below, but enjoy your time in London. I appreciate so much Chris and I look forward to seeing you again soon. Thanks for your time. For sure. Yes, you take care. Thanks. Bye, bye, bye, bye.
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Jamie Durling, VP of HR at Dolce & Gabbana.