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In today's episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we welcome Debra Corey, co-author of "Bad Bosses Ruin Lives." Debra shares her insights on how common bad boss behaviors impact employees and what can be done to correct them.

Debra introduces the "Three A's" approach—awareness, acceptance, and action—to help managers identify and address their weaknesses.

🎓 In this episode, DEBRA discusses:

1. The top 10 types of bad bosses, including the Unappreciator, Micromanager, and Coercer.

2. Why specific recognition is more impactful than a generic "good job."

3. The importance of managers listening to their teams to foster innovation and avoid the "Iceberg of Ignorance."

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Debra Corey 0:00

The whole approach to this is we talk about the three A's. The first is awareness. You can't do anything you said until you define it. So what is, what is it that I'm doing wrong? Then accept it, and then action it through the building block. So, and it really needs to go through those three steps, and that's really what I'm trying to change. Because I think too often, you know you said earlier about how people just get thrown into jobs, we also get thrown into training classes. So like me, appreciation, I can do in my sleep. I've been doing it. I write books on it. Why spend my time sending me to an appreciation class, whereas, as someone who's a micromanager, send me to the empowerment class. So I think if we can get that focus first, then we can send people and focus their time on where it's going to make the biggest difference at that time.

Chris Rainey 0:54

Deborah, welcome back to the show. How are you? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me back again. Appreciate it nice to see you again. I'm like, I'm like, I don't even know how you got to six books at this point.

Debra Corey 1:05

I had some help on this one. This one, I did. I do have a co author, so that does help, but it's too honest. So when you see like, those people that got like 20 books, like most of them are ghost written, ghost writers, like most of the time, you know that's based on my experience interviewing a lot of authors. But so the new book, which we're talking about today, bad bosses, ruined lives. Bold, bold headlight, bold title for a book the building blocks for being a great boss. What was the inspiration behind this new book? So my second book that I wrote, I was writing with my co author, and I was telling them a story. We were writing the chapter on leadership, and I was telling them the story about how a boss had impacted my life, and I said bad bosses ruin lives. And the phrase just like took off, we put it on T shirts. We put it on babies, onesies, stickers, everything you haven't put on a onesie. Please don't tell me that's a real story. They did put it on a onesie, just like to make sure as your children grow, they don't have that. Yeah, but since then, I've been wanting to write the book, and I finally got around to writing it. I just thought that I've been a bad boss myself. I've had a bad boss. I don't want people to make the mistakes that I've made, and I wish something like this had been written when I was a boss. So it's my gift, because many of us are thrusted into those positions about any real training or development, very rare, you know, say, oh, you know, they're a high performer as an individual contributor. Of course they'll make a good manager. Of course they'll make a good boss. It doesn't work that way. Definitely, in my experience, I learned the hard way by making mistakes, and I still mistakes, and I still do to this day. You know, when I was looking at some of those traits of bad bosses, I recognize someone knows, even now, I'll be honest in myself that I was like, ah,

Chris Rainey 2:54

caught me. Caught me in the moment. So let's jump straight in, if that's the right of you, what are the top 10 types of bad bosses.

Debra Corey 3:03

Yeah, so just to take a step back on how we came up with these 10, is we, although the title is in your face, we wanted the bosses to be approachable, because you're right, you and I, we're going to get it wrong. We're going to continue to get it wrong. So we tried to look at what are the most common mistakes that people make, and which are the ones that we can actually do something about. So there are 10 of them. As you said, we did a survey. All of them, at least, had 50% of people saying that they had them the top type of bad boss, which was very sad to me, is the unappreciated. 81% of people said they have a non appreciator. And I was sad, because the book I wrote before this was on appreciation. It's like, just do something about it. So yeah, that was 81%

Chris Rainey 3:48

right. And on the website, a definition was, doesn't show their people recognition, gratitude or appreciate them, making them feel unvalued, invisible, unappreciated for their actions and contributions. That is not a good thing you want to hear. Yeah, and it's sometimes it happens because bosses don't understand the importance of it and they don't know how to do it. Sometimes bosses focus more on the negatives and the positives, and sometimes people just don't know how to say it in the most effective way. So yes, my boss thanked me, but I don't really feel good job, like, one of those ones, right? Good job, exactly. That's a why bother? Yeah, I say that's definitely one of the things I learned along the years, is be specific about what you're giving if you're going to appreciate someone or give feedback, like positive feedback, like, be specific about what it is, and it means so much more to that person, rather than great job. Yeah, yeah. And, and, I guess my tip that I'd share, and I have it in my appreciation book, also is, if you need to train your managers on it, it's really, really simple, tell them, or the first thing is say what they did thank you for whatever you.

Debra Corey 5:00

Did link it back to your company values and then share the impact. So if you just train those three things, I promise you, your managers will feel much more comfortable about it.

Chris Rainey 5:09

I love the part that you just mentioned, because I remember in my previous company, someone came to me, one of my team members, and I wanted one, and said, like, I don't know how what I do impacts the business? I was like, wow. It just shocked me for a second, right? And that cat is pretty demotivating not to know, like, what is the impact that this, your work actually has on our business, our customer, society, etc. So it really stuck with me that that's important to convey that no matter the role, to function highest levels of the business, someone who just died, super important, absolutely.

Debra Corey 5:46

And it's something that sometimes we go so quickly we don't realize the the power of it and the impact. And also, if you share it, then the person's going to understand what they need to do more of the next time. Also. So it's a great education, free training class, just by showing appreciation the right way. Yeah, you're

Chris Rainey 6:01

right. You're reinforcing those behaviors as well. What was the second one?

Debra Corey 6:07

So there's a tie between the next two. One of them is the micromanager, which I definitely, definitely have worn this mask many times myself. There's 80% of people said they've had a micromanager, and I find this one sort of easy to go into, especially as a new boss, because you're not really comfortable with letting go of things, you're maybe a bit insecure. You're not sure, should I let people do things their way, or should I do it my way? People think that you'll save time if you're a micromanager or they're afraid of taking the risk of having other people get involved. But again, I've learned the hard way, micromanaging is absolutely, definitely not the right thing to do.

Chris Rainey 6:50

Why do you think so many managers become micromanagers?

Debra Corey 6:55

I think it's a combination of insecurity. And again, I'll hold my hand up as a new manager, I was definitely insecure, you know, the whole imposter syndrome. So, you know, if somebody presents an idea better than mine, am I going to look bad, as opposed to looking at it? If somebody presents an idea better than mine, fantastic. It's better for the company. I'm going to learn something new. So seeing it more as an opportunity, also think that people think it's quicker to be a micromanager, like a lot of us have a we have a lot of pressure to get things done. You know, the world is moving so quickly, and if I just manage all the pieces, it's going to get done so much quicker, which it doesn't get quicker if you do that, one

Chris Rainey 7:35

of the impacts that I realized I was having when I when I've done that in the past, is you're robbing the person of the opportunity to even if they do fail, right? And they don't, you know that you're robbing them of that opportunity to fail and learn and get better. So me, me thinking, Oh, I'm helping by doing it, you know, no, I'm actually taking away that opportunity, that learning moment, from them by a micromanager, if that makes sense,

Debra Corey 7:59

absolutely, and you're right. I think that's a really good point, because a lot of times, as a micromanager, we think that they're going to learn better. We're going to show them exactly how to do it. It's like when I used to coach gymnastics, and I'd have these little ones on the balance beam, and I would get on the balance beam and show them how to do something, and then think that they would miraculously know how to do it. They're not going to learn it until they start doing it themselves and falling off and getting back on again. And as you say, making mistakes, those are the learning moments. Yeah, what

Chris Rainey 8:29

was tied with micromanager?

Debra Corey 8:30

This is the easiest one, because the avoider is the ghost. So we made a ghost emoji, and this one again. Well, all of them, I have to say, are unintentional, and people do it because they're busy. They don't have time to, you know, meet in with their people, talk to their people, give them feedback, all those types of things. They might be confused in how to manage people remotely. You know, how do you how do you interact with people when they're not in the same office, or even just they might not know how to interact. They might not know how to give feedback constructively. They might not be able to communicate those types of things. So, yeah, lots, lots of reasons. And I think you know, this is one of those ones. Again, you might be an avoider for one person, but another person you might not. I mean, I've managed global teams before, and so maybe somebody that I have working all the way in Australia, different time zone, harder to talk with. Maybe for that person, I'm an avoider, whereas someone who sits next to me in the London office, they might think I'm doing a great job.

Chris Rainey 9:29

Yeah, a lot of times I kind of feel like, when I've seen that happen play out with managers in our business and others, is they're avoiding hard conversations. Yes, yes. Like avoiding. You know, sometimes on both sides both avoided each other because the conversation, and those are the conversations that are most important, that need they are to stop the business moving forward right and faster, and the more that you that they're unspoken, the bigger the impact. That it has.

Debra Corey 10:01

One of my favorite classes to teach is a feedback class. And partly because everybody enters the room thinking, Oh, shit, I have to give feedback. I hate giving feedback. As you say, it's the worst thing in the world. And by the end of the class, people feel like, Oh, I understand what happens when I don't give feedback. I feel more comfortable one of my best stories in one of my classes is someone told me how he left the house in the morning with toothpaste on his face, and it wasn't until the end of the day, at about four o'clock in the afternoon where somebody finally came up and told him that he had toothpaste. So I always say, do you want people to walk around with toothpaste on their face? Yeah.

Chris Rainey 10:40

Now looking now, looking at like, what is the opportunity cost of not saying it, as opposed to like, you know, looking it through that lens, it makes it a bit easier. What was, what was the next? What about the because you got avoided? What's the difference between the avoider and the ignorer?

Debra Corey 11:00

So the the emojis tell the main difference. So the avoider is the ghost, the ignorer has headphones on, so they're not listening to you, okay? So they just, you know, as a boss, they're not coming to you and getting your feedback. So it's in the other direction. So the avoider is more the boss towards the employee. The ignorer is still the boss to the employee, but they're ignoring everything that the employee is saying. And we all know the importance of listening as a boss. You know you cannot be an effective boss without actually listening to your people and hearing what they have to say when things are going with new ideas, they've got great ideas, and also when they've got feedback on when things aren't going as well. So really, really important. And that one was 78% so there's still a lot of people saying that their bosses. That's

Chris Rainey 11:49

a big frustration. Like in my career, like one of the big, if I look back right, in some of the biggest frustrations I had, is when I felt like my ideas weren't heard and my feedback and perspectives weren't valued. Doesn't mean you have to be right, but at least be considered and valued. Otherwise, you just don't have that diversity of thought on your ideas, and it kind of makes people just kind of play it safe, right? You have a lack of innovation, a lack of creativity. And, you know, it motivates people when they come disconnected, and there's

Debra Corey 12:20

something called the iceberg of ignorance, and it's this great model. I think it was like from 1976 it's been around forever, and it basically just talks about how all the great ideas and all the problems are known at the lower levels in the organization, the people who are out there, day in and day out, with their customers. And if you don't listen to these people and hear their ideas, you're gonna hit icebergs. So again, I think it's a great visual on why you need to listen to your people. One of the

Chris Rainey 12:48

ones that surprised me was the coercer. Could you talk about that a little

Debra Corey 12:54

bit? Yeah, that probably is the only one that's a bit like I told you. The other ones were all nice and safe. The coercer is, is probably closest to like a bully. And again, I don't think we do it intentionally. I've done it myself. I've been a coercer, and it's a misuse of power. Basically. I'll give you a perfect example. I was in a meeting once, and it was going nowhere. We had like eight people in the meeting, and we were trying to come up with one way to do things, and it was going back and forth and forth and back and forth, and we weren't getting anywhere. So finally, little old me, and I'm like, not even five feet tall, little old me, stands up and goes, we're gonna do it this way. I'm the boss, and we're gonna do it this way. And luckily, everyone cracked up laughing because it was hilarious, but that I was a coarser I was, I was trying to use my power in the wrong way, unintentionally to get things done. You know, luckily, nobody really saw me as a scary boss. But if they had, it could have been a really uncomfortable situation. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 13:53

you also talk about, like controlling, like the processes, the outcomes, strict compliance, almost like suffocating

Debra Corey 14:04

it is, and there's a lot of crossover. So when you talked about avoider and ignore, there's lots of crossover. This one has a lot of crossover with micromanager also, yeah, there is. I mean, we did go back and forth. Do we separate them all out? But we wanted to be as specific as possible. Because I think the more the more you can define them, the better chance we all have to do something about it.

Chris Rainey 14:24

Yeah. What about the pretender? I wasn't expecting that either, in the list I've never heard of like, Oh, like that as a trait,

Debra Corey 14:34

yeah. Do you know it's interesting. This one we decided to do because one of the things we did in our research is we went out and we asked people for their stories. And this one came from people telling us stories about a boss who is all sunshine and roses. So I'm a positive person, but if things are bad, you need to tell the person that things are bad, going back to feedback. Or if things are challenging in the business, don't hide. It from your people. How are they going to help the business survive? So a pretender is someone who wears a mask. This one, luckily, was only 51% so hopefully people are getting better at doing things. But yeah, this is somebody who's wearing a mask, not sharing the bad news, not sharing what's really going on, thinking again, thinking you're protecting people. And in HR, we've done this before. I know we've done this before, where we go out to our employees and, you know, we're sort of tiptoeing around the challenge. And it's, you know, it's time to take that, those tap shoes off and just tell the people they're adults, you know, bring them into the confidentiality loop.

Chris Rainey 15:36

Yeah? Kind of goes in a little bit with the avoider. Yeah, avoiding the hard truths which you think you're protecting someone or the business, and actually, you know, again, you're actually taking that away as well. Firefighter, so we've all heard about that one. We've all got we've all seen the firefighters. I've been one of those many times. Yes, still am probably at this point, yeah, as well. And,

Debra Corey 16:03

and I think the thing about firefighters is it can be fun. You know, it can be fun going from one challenge, one exciting thing, to another. And I think that's why some of us fall into that trap. It's like, let's just do the exciting things, jump into this one, put out a fire. And again, you don't have to, like, drastically change things to avoid these traps. You know, if you could, going back to what you said about impact, if you could bring people into we're going to put this fire out because we're going to save a cat in the tree. Or, you know, we need to do this right now because of the impact, if we don't do it, or even just pushing back sometimes, and I think too often, I know, as a young manager, I would say yes to everything, and just saying, You know what, we don't have the resources. We don't have enough water, we don't know if ladders. We're not going to go fight that fire, you know what? We'll come back later, but let us focus on this right now and get it done. Well, yeah,

Chris Rainey 16:56

I think that comes of experience. You know, earlier in your career, you think that's what you should do, and that's what you do. And I think you learn the hard way throughout your career to ask for help, yeah, but I feel like comes of maturity and experience. I feel like very rarely do people get that from day one. You know, Gina,

Debra Corey 17:17

it's interesting you say that, though, because when we were writing this one, the boss of mine, I thought of as a firefighter, was a very senior person, but it was because of their personality and their style. They loved the if you do the personality tested,

Chris Rainey 17:32

the adrenaline they got, they got like, yeah, okay, yeah. But we learned

Debra Corey 17:36

to work around it. We did. And I think the thing about this is your people, like with my people laughing when I was a coercer. If you have a good, solid relationship with your people, and you make mistakes, because, as you said, we're all going to make mistakes, they'll be fine. My firefighter boss, that was the only area that they were bad in, and we knew that they were going to do it, and we just figured out how to work around it and how to get this person what they needed, but then also not, you know, burn ourselves through the firefighting,

Chris Rainey 18:04

yeah, the more I look through these, the more I see all like the intellect in what it's like a web because I was just reading the next one, the hoarder, and that really links into so many others, right? We all know there's people in the company that keep all the information to themselves. They feel like, if they share it, they lose some sort of power, yeah, gets back to coercer, yeah, yeah, exactly right. And then I think that also is part of that, is the the way that companies were set up in the past, as well the traditional hierarchy, yeah, that you, you know, at certain levels, you hoard that information. That was kind of like what you did, but in order to be successful, agile, innovative and stay competitive, it's the opposite. We need to be to share that top to bottom right as well. So I don't think you'll last long in many businesses these days if you're if you're a real hoarder of information,

Debra Corey 18:58

yeah, but I think it's also how you share the information. So we're going to talk later about the building blocks, but under communications, you know, we as businesses, I think we did a great job during the pandemic being much more open and honest and transparent. And I'm seeing companies go back to hoarding it. So either as a boss or as a business hoarding, yeah, and I think that we need to keep that, that transparency, something I've been well, my very first book I wrote was on communication, so it's something I'm absolutely passionate about, because too often, again, it goes back to pretender. I think we hide the truth often because we think we're protecting our people, or you're not. They're so busy. My one of the stories I share in the book about me being a hoarder was I had someone who was on maternity leave, and I hadn't had children back then, so I didn't really know what it was like. And when she was out on maternity leave, I didn't share anything with her. I didn't send her updates and what was going on, because I thought, you know, she's being really busy taking care of her baby. I want to respect that. And when she came. Actually is furious with me. He's like, I would have loved for you to have shared information with me. It would have made me feel more connected. It would have given me something else besides changing nappies, to think about. And it was just one of those aha moments about maybe I need to talk to my people and find out how much information they want. What's the best way?

Chris Rainey 20:19

Yeah, my wife had a similar experience when she had robbing our daughter. I Robin, our daughter, where she found out her manager hadn't told her when she was on maternity leave about some potential new leadership roles that she would have been interested in, and when she found out, her manager said, Well, I didn't tell you because I thought you'd want to spend more time with Robin, and this requires more work, like, don't just rob the robbed her of the opportunity, but to your point, assumed he was doing a good thing, you know, as well. What do you mean? You not, you know, not, not putting me up for that role. I've been here for 10 years. You've made that decision for me thinking, you know, yeah, how many times does that happen? You know, unfortunately,

Debra Corey 20:58

it does. And that goes back to ignore. You're not listening to people. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 21:02

yeah. What did we miss? We missed the blame us blame Yeah,

Debra Corey 21:10

that's we call that one the Teflon boss. So nothing sticks to them because they're blaming people for other things. And again, it happens because of insecurity. You know, you're in a meeting, and somebody's chewing you out about something that's wrong, and you just throw your people under the bus. I think that's the expression, or your people under the bus, and you blame people, as opposed to, you know, sticking up for your people so and that would surprise me. I didn't expect as many people. 68% of people, said they've got a blamer boss who's pointing finger. That's why the finger pointing, because all the stories that people told us was about pointing fingers at people.

Chris Rainey 21:48

Do you? Do you think that's linked to, like, not creating an environment where where people have that psychological safety to fail, so therefore they have to point a finger? Yeah? Yeah.

Debra Corey 22:01

As opposed to, it goes back to what we said before, creating a culture and an environment where it's okay to fail to learn. I think one of the examples I shared because someone shared this with me once, how they have a whole on teams. They have something where you just share when things go wrong, like not to hide, but just like, This is what I did wrong so that other people don't make the mistakes. I mean, that's why I write books. My very first book I ever wrote was sharing mistakes that I had made. So instead of pointing fingers, it's like, All right, let's learn from it. Let's get it out there, and then, you know, dissect it and think what we think what we can do better

Chris Rainey 22:36

about it? Yeah, that's so I think that's that one of them. Did we miss any? The only

Debra Corey 22:41

other one is the blocker. Oh, and that one, that one is 65% and that we've talked a little bit about, that one, that one's someone who gets in the way of your people either developing so you know you're blocking them. What your wife that was a blocker? Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that one. Yeah. Because

Chris Rainey 22:59

you're definitely definition there your definition invade you speak about blocking career progression, which is basically what that was, but it but

Debra Corey 23:06

it's interesting, because one of the things that we we talk about is that if we went to these people's bosses and said, Your people think you're a blocker, I bet her boss wouldn't even have thought they were a blocker. Hopefully, hopefully they like me, they did it because they just didn't want to bother your wife, and it wasn't intentional. I don't know the details, but yeah, yeah.

Chris Rainey 23:27

All right, now, now we've told everyone how terrible they are at being bosses.

Let's talk about your building blocks model, because I think there's just, there's like, 14 different elements, right? That we've been within. Of course, you have a specific number, and jump into that and share that a little bit more of everyone.

Debra Corey 23:53

Yeah. So the whole idea, if anybody's read any my other books, or worked with me before, you know that I do love a good model, because, and I'm not saying it's like the perfect model in the entire world, but I just like something to sort of wrap my arms around. So as an HR person, I want something that's going to help me, um, build my leadership, my learning and development program. So that's that's why we created this. And they all link directly and indirectly to the bad bosses, so some of them more than others. So for example, a hoarder, there's a building block about communications. The ignorer, there's a building block about listening. So there's 14 building blocks, which I know is a lot, but the good news is you don't need to use them all at the same time. You use them at different times. Also, there's two types of building blocks. So there's what we call the foundational ones. And these are more like the behaviors. They're, they're, they're six of them. So we call them the six pack. So if you think about a six pack, it holds things up. So things like respect and trust, authenticity, vulnerability, empathy, compassion, all the. Behaviors that, as a boss, we've learned over the years are just like so, so important. So again, hopefully all of you have these as part of your training programs, and then the others are more the tools, things like empowerment. That goes back to micromanager, inspiration, excuse me, development, coaching, feedback, appreciation, listening and communication, and they all have partners too, so that they're even stronger together. So if you just had listening without communications, you're not as strong. So yeah, so there's really seven pairs.

Chris Rainey 25:36

Oh, I love that. So that's why you've got feedback with appreciation and development, with coaching and empowerment with inspiration,

Debra Corey 25:43

because they work together. So like appreciation is a form of feedback, but it's an area that we need to focus on. You know, as I said, listening and communication, development and coaching are two different ways to grow your people. And then on the ones, the financial ones, empathy opens the door to compassion, respect leads to trust. So, yeah, you they work together. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 26:07

One of the things that I love that you did is you created definitions for all of these different things, because sometimes what I see in companies is one of the reasons people don't have these conversations. They don't have the right language in order to have the conversation, if that makes sense. So I love that you included that, by the way. Okay, so when people both when, because you can all read that and be like, Okay, that's what we're talking about. That's the definition of what that means. So the important question is, how do I find out which ones I have?

Debra Corey 26:38

Well, we starting up from bad bosses. The good thing is that my co author, who is actually my husband, also, oh, wow, he's, yeah, he's a senior engineering manager, so I asked him to write the book with me, because we have very different perspectives on how to be a boss. I come from HR, he comes from engineering. So together we were more powerful. But speaking of powerful, since he's an engineer, he created a free test that people could take online, which tells them which of the bad boss types you need to focus on. Oh, wow. And then it tells you which building blocks to focus on as well. So that was his gift to me and everyone else. That's free. Yeah, it's free. Yeah, absolutely free. We're working on something that you can send out to your employees is 360 feet, nice, nice, nice. But for yourself right now, we're like, let's just get it out there in the world. And I think we've had about 2000 people. I don't know the details, because it's complete it's not just free, it's completely anonymous. So, like, I don't even know anybody's results. I wanted to, so selfishly, I wanted to be able

Chris Rainey 27:40

to see the results. Yeah, we asked to be anonymous, of course, yeah, but I

Debra Corey 27:43

didn't want people to think that I was being big brother. So all I know is, how many people have taken it? Yeah? How

Chris Rainey 27:49

long does it take?

Debra Corey 27:52

Less than five minutes. I've got no attention span, so it had to be something that I could take. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 27:56

So everyone listening right now? Is that right? Deborah, if I put that in the action. Oh, cool, yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited to do it, but I'm also like, Oh no, what's gonna come what's gonna come back?

Debra Corey 28:08

I think the whole Yeah, or you just

Chris Rainey 28:09

answered my next question, which is, what are the actions I need to take once I find out? But so that three step process, it

Debra Corey 28:16

is, yeah? So awareness, acceptance and action. And the great thing, one of my approaches to writing books is I'm the first to say I don't have all the answers, which is why I love writing books, because I interviewed 24 thought leaders. So, like, for feedback, I went to Kim Scott, who wrote radical candor. I mean, like the best book on feedback ever, and she was very gracious with her time, and she shared information that then I could pass on to people. So I interviewed some amazing people, and at the end of the book, actually, I should put this for free on my website. All of the books that we recommend, I think I'll put that on the website too. Great. And I think there's like 20 books I recommend, just so like, if you want to learn more about feedback, or you want to learn more about listening, I recommend a book on listening and all of those types of things. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 29:01

should everyone be a manager and a boss? No,

Debra Corey 29:07

no. And it's interesting, because I always told my husband he would be a great boss, only because I saw how he was with our children, and I saw him as he interacted with other people, but he didn't want to be a boss. It took him a while because he really wanted to focus just on coding. He loved coding, and he said, I don't want to deal with people. People are not what I want to do. And it wasn't until he felt it was the right time for him to move on to be a boss. And he's a great boss, but I think it's a perfect example if he had been forced to be a boss at the right time at the wrong time. It would have been wrong for him and wrong for his people.

Chris Rainey 29:46

Yeah, and I think one good thing now is that many companies are now creating great career paths for individual contributors, whereas in the past, you didn't have that. So you kind of like you're on your way up. Yeah, what's to become a manager, if that makes sense, right? Whereas, if you could be, especially an engineer is a perfect example, right? A highly skilled specialist in that craft. You know, they don't make they don't want to be maybe they don't want to be a manager or a boss. They want to be good at that thing and be an V expert in that field. But just, most companies just don't have a career path for that type of talent? Yeah, typically, I'm

Debra Corey 30:23

only smiling because I can remember, you know, I've been doing HR a long time, yeah. And I can picture like it was yesterday, sitting in the boardroom trying to convince our board to create dual tracks, yeah, for our engineering people. And it took a lot, because nobody did it back then, yeah. And it took a lot of convincing, and it was just what we talked about. There's these amazing engineers. We keep seeing everyone on their team leaving, so I had to bring data out like now, you don't have to convince anybody to do it. It makes sense. But yeah, back then, it was an uphill battle. But I'm so glad that, as you say, companies are doing that now. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 30:57

is there anything that we've not spoken about that's important that you want to leave with our listeners.

Debra Corey 31:05

I guess the you know, we talked about it at the beginning, just that concept of, you know, just acceptance and just accept that we're going to get it wrong, and also accept that everybody is going to want something different for you. So you might be a great boss when it comes to one person in one moment in time, and you might be a bad boss to someone else. So the more that you can be aware of it, then you can do something about it and just accept the fact that you're going to make mistakes. But if you build that foundation, we talk about respect and trust being like the core. Because if I go back to my boss, who is a firefighter, I had such respect and trust for them. If things went wrong, that's fine. We were patient with them. So if you can start with really strong foundational building blocks, then you've got time to make mistakes.

Chris Rainey 31:52

Yeah, love it before I let you go. Two questions. One, what's your question or challenge to all of our LinkedIn viewers, because I'm going to post that on LinkedIn.

Debra Corey 32:04

What's my question?

Chris Rainey 32:05

You can set him a challenge, or you can ask, yeah, you can ask him a question, and we're going to post that on LinkedIn, and you can get the feedback from everyone.

Debra Corey 32:15

So why don't, since we've been talking about the whole concept of bad bosses, my challenge is, what do you think that you're What do you think you're doing really well, and what do you think are your opportunities for improvement? That would be my challenge.

Chris Rainey 32:28

Let's see how vulnerable people are willing to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll go first as we as we're saying it. So I think based on just so if on LinkedIn doesn't feel like they're alone in being vulnerable. Looking at the list, I think one of the things I feel like I've been a bit of an avoider recently. There's been a lot, there's been a lot going on in the business, and I've been trying to be a firefighter, and by being a firefighter, I've become an avoider, if that makes sense, as well. And those two things really stood out to me, that I that just just got brought to my, front of mine now for this conversation that I need to to focus on. So I appreciate you for that.

Debra Corey 33:12

And just so you know, when we were writing the book, I probably had examples for every single one. So that's, that's my vulnerability. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Rainey 33:21

So listen. Anyone listening right now, make sure you go grab a copy of the book. There'll be a link in the description below. Also reach out to Deborah. She speaks at a lot of events, so you could have a she's an amazing speaker. Also does workshops. You design a workshop around all this for leaders and managers. So that's also something you should definitely hit Deborah for and also consulting, right? So you and you've, you've lived them, breathe this as well, right? What I love about you is you're not just coming at this with a perspective of, you know, I've done some research, which is great, obviously, but you've lived them, breathed the role of many of the HR leaders that are listening to this show right now. So I think that's an added value to what you bring to the table for everyone listening. I've

Debra Corey 34:03

been told I have a story for everything. And I think that, I think the good thing is sometimes you know that this is being vulnerable. I think sometimes I've had opposition. Oh, you've been doing HR for so long you just don't know how to do it in this new world. And I think that what I show people is that even What's the expression old dogs can learn new tricks.

Chris Rainey 34:22

Yeah, so expressions today? Yeah, I know I've

Debra Corey 34:27

only had one cup of coffee, just imagine if I'd had a glass of wine, but yeah, I think it shows that anybody can change, if you have the right mindset and you have the right goal, then anybody can go out and change and do things better. We we wrote our book and we dedicated it to our children because we want to create a world where they have great bosses and then they become great bosses themselves. That to me, that's nirvana.

Chris Rainey 34:51

You should have added a section of which of these things that you and your husband became throughout the writing of the book.

Debra Corey 34:58

Oh, definitely, you. It's funny. You say that because he kept going, you're being a micromanager. I'd be you're being an ignore. Yeah,

we should have done

Chris Rainey 35:07

that funny. Next book, next book. Well, listen, it's always a pleasure to chat with you. Super excited to get this in the hands of all of the all of our audience and all of the managers and leaders that they serve all over the world, and keep up the amazing work. And I wish you all the best until we next speak.

Debra Corey 35:22

Thank you, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about it and share. Yeah,

Chris Rainey 35:26

it's a pleasure. See you. See you soon. Thanks. You.