Why JUST Hiring DEI Leaders Won’t Fix Your Inclusion Problem
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we speak with Hannah Awonuga, Founder & CEO of Illume Executive Consulting, about how to unlock executive potential through inclusive leadership and authentic executive coaching.
Hannah shares the biggest challenges HR leaders face when developing senior leaders, and why inclusion must be more than a program, it must be a mindset shift. This episode will reshape how you think about power, privilege, and the future of leadership development.
🎓 In this episode, Hannah discusses:
Why authenticity is critical to leadership influence
How to create psychologically safe coaching spaces
What HR gets wrong when working with senior leadership
Reframing privilege and power as part of inclusive development
How executive coaching changes when inclusion becomes a non-negotiable
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Chris Rainey 0:00
Hannah, welcome to the show. How are you? Thank you. I am fine. Thank you. Very excited to be here. If I knew he was wearing that jacket, I would have, like, changed the theme. Why? That would have been perfect. Oh yeah, I love that. It's super cool. Pop of color. Yeah, I'm kind of padded out. Like, I feel like I need, like, a wardrobe designer, like someone to help me out. I'm like, I'm just, like, black, white. It's bad, isn't it? Yeah,
Hannah Awonuga 0:20
I could see green and the red green. I
Chris Rainey 0:23
don't know if I can pull off green, maybe, yeah, but it takes in order only certain people can pull off jackets like that. If I was wearing that, it would not work for me.
Hannah Awonuga 0:33
Well, you can try on.
Chris Rainey 0:36
Imagine I'm like this everyone, yeah, but so good to meet you in person. We spoke online before. Yeah, it's nice to see you before we jump in. Tell everyone a little bit about your background and sort of the journey to where we are now, absolutely.
Hannah Awonuga 0:49
So where do I start? I've 20 years in corporate. I started my career when I was 16 in the bank. So really, yeah, wow. Straight in, straight in straight in my first ever job was as a cashier at Halifax, and then 17, I joined Barclays, and I ended up staying there for nearly 18 years. Wow, I know so long time. Take a deep breath when you said that. Yeah. It started 17 as a cashier, and I left as a global director, and so I'd worked my way through the organization, and I did a short stint in real estate as the group head of diversity, equity and inclusion. And now, I mean, it's really weird time, this transition in time where I'm just thinking about what it is I want to do next, and particularly with the DEI landscape as it is, for somebody like me who would class themselves as dei expert, transformation and culture, it's a really exciting time to think about, actually, what, what does the future look like for that type of work? And so that's that's what I'm doing at the moment. By
Chris Rainey 1:48
the way, I love first and foremost, that you you approach that last part with a positive lens, because you're right. It's a tough time. Let's not pretend it's not. But it's also an incredible opportunity to reimagine, right and rethink everything as well. So it's great that you have that word reimagine, yeah, because everyone has such a negative outlook on of course there's, I understand that, yeah, but I feel like it also it could be an opportunity, yeah, as well.
Hannah Awonuga 2:13
They say about all the most successful business people are people that see the opportunities in times of hardship,
Chris Rainey 2:19
yeah. So that's 100% like I saw, like, you know, we lost 90% of our revenue during the pandemic because it was in person events. And I saw, like, an entrepreneur talking about, like, you know, like, never waste a good crisis. And if you look at some of the best companies and most innovative businesses that are around today, they were born during the last recession. So whilst everyone else kind of hunkered down and was like, we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna hold down and let go of people, those companies hired and they innovated and they, you know, challenge the status quo and reimagine their business, and just excelled through that. So you kind of kind of have a look at it in two ways, right? Like, I feel like, for us, it's always been like, seek discomfort. I think that is it. If you become friends with discomfort, my best friend's discomfort, Oh, yeah. Because if you do that, you change, like what you just did, yeah, the lens, yeah, absolutely right. And then you start to think of, how can we do it? As opposed to, I can't do that. And
Hannah Awonuga 3:19
I think that's what's the probably the most exciting thing for me is, actually, what is the possibilities? Because, and I'm sure we'll get into this, the work's not going to change. So we're no longer, we're not going to go back to saying, Yeah, we want, you know, all men on boards, and we don't have, you know, a diverse society that reflects in our business. We're not going to go back to that. But the word the work, the word the world is changing, yeah, right. And so we have to pivot. And you know, we've got some leaders that have views, and their views are having a huge impact on us, yeah. And so now, you know, the people like me who've been in the game for a long time, we're just thinking, firstly, we've seen this before many times, right? But then it's also about, okay, well, have we seen
Chris Rainey 4:02
it before? It's just a new Is it a new lens and a new like is this just another, another brand of people trying to cancel? Do you
Hannah Awonuga 4:11
know what? I think in in many different ways, we've seen it right? When we have any type of disruption, will always be a resist. There'll always be a resistance. So if you think about when Black Lives Matter first came out, everyone said, well, all lives matter when it was me too. Then men were saying, well, we also get harassed. Like there's always been this kind of a reaction to something that we're trying to drive and so I have to say, admittedly, the voices are louder this time. They're actually in political parties, they're actually running in legislation, in legislation and running economies. So that's probably the thing that feels different, and that's probably why there is this reaction to it. But disruption and reaction is a constant, so yeah,
Chris Rainey 4:56
this isn't going to be the first time it just. His won't be the last time. No, it ain't the first time. It won't.
Hannah Awonuga 5:02
It won't. And sadly, and I say this, you know, with all the respect, it might take another black man being killed in public for the uproar to happen again, right? And it might take another woman who is harassed by officials. It might take something else. And that's sad. It shouldn't
Chris Rainey 5:19
that you But you But you are telling the truth. That's right. Like you saw everyone during the George Floyd all of a sudden flip, and I saw companies hiring chief diversity officers. Everyone's posting the black pictures, yeah, with, like, don't even do anything about it. But they're just on the bandwagon back square on social media. I know those companies. I'm like, I know you ain't doing nothing, yeah, exactly. And you're just jumping on the bat. And then, just as quickly, something else, right? Yeah, they flip. So yeah, they flip. Oh, but it just flipped back, though. Yeah, right, yeah, true, but. And then you see the companies now that truly, it's part of their culture, their values, are now actually doubling down even during this time. They're the real ones. They're the ones that, like, even while the fire is hot, we're leaning in even further. And that's the message that they're sharing to their employees, that this is not just some words on the wall. Yeah, we live in these even when it's not the, you know, going up with the trend. Yeah, as well. So there's
Hannah Awonuga 6:14
a balance, though, because although, yes, you're right, there are some organizations that are doubling down. There are a lot of organizations that have backtracked. And it's in that backtrack that you see who really meant it to your point, who really meant the black square, who really meant, you know, the review of policies, that this is where you see it, because it's in times of challenge that you see, you know, you know people's actions and if their actions are sincere, and so, yeah, yeah, that's, that's what we're seeing. What are you hearing from
Chris Rainey 6:43
your network? Because I, obviously, I'm interviewing your peers and CHROs every day, but unfortunately, they can't share their opinions on the show, and we know why, right? They've got jobs and they like in as much as they would love to speak out. Unfortunately, in many cases, they can't, because it means they probably have to walk away. Yeah. So what are you hearing from within your network right now?
Hannah Awonuga 7:02
So I think there's a number of different things I'm hearing. I'm hearing that the work still stays the same, but the words will change me example a lot. So, you know, there's a number of organizations that we've seen, you know, JP, Morgan as an example. You know, they have changed dei to D, O, I, diversity, opportunity and inclusion, as opposed to dei diversity. See that one inclusion, that's an example. It's it's in the public domain, so happy to I can talk about that. But there are a number of organizations who have moved dei under different guises or called itself culture and inclusion is one main one, talent and inclusion, engagement, colleague, experience. We're here. We're seeing it all. It's better works the same is that absolutely the same. And I feel like a lot of us, dei leaders and HR professionals are now walking thesauruses. We're like, How can you say the same thing with a different word like and
Chris Rainey 8:00
we've changed it a lot, even since I've been like doing this for 20 years. It's like, you know, it's like ID and Ed and I diversity. There's a lot of different versions of that.
Hannah Awonuga 8:10
But when you strip it back, the work still remains. It is about ensuring that everybody feels like they can thrive in the workplace. They feel like they can, you know, have equal opportunities to progress in their careers. They feel like they want policies that reflect, you know, who they are, in their lifestyle, that stuff stays the same. The world is changing so much that organizations almost don't have a choice if you don't change with the world, you know, from it, from even from a generational perspective. And actually, you lose your client base. Yeah, you can't speak to them, you don't understand them. And so therefore, then you start to hit the bottom line. And so that's ultimately how I talk about Dei, is it's a commercial value that you almost can't afford to miss, yeah,
Chris Rainey 8:52
because that's going to ripple down all the way to your customer, absolutely. And then vice versa, it's going to also for you in terms of how you attract and retain talent. They're just not gonna and then this, I mean, I know, not saying everyone, but I do feel like this generation, more than our generation, is the consideration, and it's something that I get asked in interviews that in the past, wasn't even a question. Yeah, right, and they will look up your company, and they'll make sure, right? So this is no longer like, This is table stakes. This is no longer a nice exactly to have. There's also the right thing to do, and it's great business your point more than anything else as well. Do you feel like, what's the impact that this has had on the credibility of the function? Yeah, great question, because it's been, you know, from the external view in the media, it's been absolutely, yeah.
Hannah Awonuga 9:40
Do you know what I think I'm very if I'm very honest with you, I am not mad at the current dei shake up. I actually welcome it like, don't get me wrong. You know what's happening in the US, the political landscape, all of them, things are really tough. As a DNI professional to. To absorb and read every single day when people are bashing the profession. However, some people joined in on the DEI bandwagon through external influences. So that could have been George Floyd's murder. It could have been the ME TOO movement. And also, organizations didn't hire. They didn't have these jobs. So what they did is they found the black person that had the loudest voice and said, Would you like to come and work in Dei? And so what you have is a profession divided. You have a profession where you've got people that have been doing this for years and years and years. Understand it, but more so understand change management, transformation, business growth strategy, and then you have another group that have lived experience. So maybe they are a gay white man, maybe they are black, maybe they have a neurodiverse condition, and they've been said, Look, come and you've got, you've got a lot of passion. So come, come and do this role, and passion will only take you so far, and that's what we're seeing. And so if you've been asked to do this job because you're passionate or because you have lived experience, you won't and you don't understand business, so you don't understand change management, or you don't understand strategy, then actually, that's, that's where you don't, you don't get the substance, you know. And so therefore leaders then look and think, see waste of money that, you know, they're not, we're not we're not getting the results. We've got someone in there that we're not getting the results. That's because, actually, you haven't given them the tools and the resources to do the job well. And the tools and resources isn't diversity training, it's change management. How do you manage change? How do you manage transformation? Yeah, and then you apply the DEI lens to it, yeah, I see.
Chris Rainey 11:38
I mean, I completely agree with you, and that's something I say about same for HR. People are going into HR because I love people. You're in the wrong space because HR is not being I mean, okay, it's part of it. Of course you need to have passion for but that's not gonna, that's not gonna make you any world class HR professional. I speak to it's exactly the skills you describe, exactly, transformation, change, yeah, not. Oh, I really enjoy people like HR, maybe 20 years ago, maybe, but not now as well. So how do I mean, so where does that land us? Then, where do we go from here?
Hannah Awonuga 12:13
So this is, you know, to my point around where I'm at in this transition season in my life. It's thinking about, well, how do we make sure that businesses are ready for the future? Like, if we take AI as an example, there's so much now about, you know, artificial intelligence, how to learn, learn the skills, learn the code, and learn how to the prompts and all of them things, because they know that they are skills of the future. I see the same Dei. You have to think about, how do we prepare organizations for the diversity of the communities to come in in the US. I think it's 2030, or 2051, of them, one of them that you know, the white race will be a minority in the US. Oh, really, yeah. And so think about that. So if you're an organization, if you're a business now that is a business to customer, then actually you are going to have to think about your customers in a very different way, their needs, their experiences, their expectations will be different. And so that's where I think I can, you know, add real value. And that's where I think dei professionals can add the real value. It's really understanding where the future of your business is going, what them clients of the future will look like, sound like, where they will come from, what their aibilities will be, and then make sure that we are as a business, we're ready for that, yeah, in any way,
Chris Rainey 13:30
also not just from a product perspective, but also that your your employees represent, yeah, that culture yeah as well, right? That there's they can relate, yeah. And then, and also, like I've seen many companies now, and a lot of the best AI leaders I speak to, they're part of the product conversations, and they're working with a Product team to create new, innovative products that they can serve to those communities and to like I spoke to a food probably should mention the name, but a very large company that make food and drink that You all know of, and their dei team helped them create a couple of new products, and actually crisps, in this sense, certain flavors that created, like, a couple 100 million in revenue, because this is new sort of flavors that they came out that represented these different countries and communities that came from their infinity groups, Yeah, internally, and they have a product conversation like
Hannah Awonuga 14:22
that. Incredible stuff, so key, and that's something that I did when I was at Barclays, is the same thing. It's thinking, well, actually, how do we leverage the people inside, they are already our clients and our customers? Yeah, and we connected them with our Product team. And it was so fascinating to hear, actually, how you know, our our accounts that we open, and the different religions and how that has an impact on interest, and all these different things that usually organizations pay 1000s and 1000s, millions, billions, to really understand their clients, yeah, when actually your clients are inside, you know? And that's the beauty of Dei, is that sometimes people think of dei in wonder. Mentioned, they think of it as representation. You know, it's all about just making sure that people at the senior levels look like like you. But that's not that's not even a fraction of what it could be. And that's what's exciting to me, is to like, start unlocking what it really could be. What could inclusion be? What could engagement be? What could diversity and equity be of the future? And so that's the stuff that really interests
Chris Rainey 15:22
me. Yeah, what message do you give to the DI leaders right now that, yes, the work may not have changed, but they have less budget. They have less resources. This is a fact. I'm speaking to leaders every day right now, so that is directly going to impact them.
Hannah Awonuga 15:38
It is. It's impacting us. All right. Like, I'm in several WhatsApp groups, geez. Like, I
Chris Rainey 15:44
can only imagine the WhatsApp groups, how
Hannah Awonuga 15:47
many WhatsApp groups you can be in, but and people are feeling it, it feels like a really tough time. It feels like it's really hard. It feels like the profession is not being taken seriously. And so a lot of people are thinking about is this for them, and they're going into different parts of different parts of HR, and I'm not mad at that either, because we need dei everywhere. So if you've been a DNI leader, and now you're a talent acquisition leader, then actually you're going to take your D and I, you know, your learnings and your experience into talent acquisition. I think that's great that we can do that. And for the ones that actually are committed to the cause, I would say, Look, we just got to stand our ground. You know, if you are convinced, if you know that you're valued and you have value that you bring to the organization, that you can make that business better, then use your voice advocate for yourself. You know, bring the data, bring the facts. You know, it might take a bit of repositioning. You know, like language evolves, we've had language has changed so much. I think we were talking about how one day it was personal. Was personnel,
Chris Rainey 16:43
personnel relations days, yeah, I don't
Hannah Awonuga 16:47
know. But then there's HR people, and now it's people, right? And training is now learning and development. So a mentor told me, Hannah, don't get hung up on the on the words, if D and I as a language moves, that doesn't matter. Your work stays the same, whatever it's called,
Chris Rainey 17:02
because they're not really attacking the work. No, they're attacking the name. There's
Hannah Awonuga 17:06
something about and you know what? If I'm very honest with you, I believe that it's not even all of the words. It's just the diverse
Chris Rainey 17:12
No, no. It is just that word. Hence what? Yeah, hence why everyone's like culture and inclusion, etc, exactly. Is that something triggering people? It's really triggering. Yeah, they really got hold of that. Yeah, in the media and the news. And when I speak to people outside of the space and friends, they don't even know what it means. Yeah, like, they're like, getting swayed by the media. And I'm like, so what is it you're actually upset about? Or wait, and they're like, they don't even know. They can't even articulate to me. They just been convinced that that's the thing. And I'm like, you don't even know you're making a decision based on the media you know, to be able to do that and when they actually you share some store storytelling. I think one of the most powerful ways, obviously, to do that. Oh, okay. Like, is that? What? AI that? What I mean? Yeah, yeah. Or I've even described some of the products that they use and how some of the physical products that they use every day and their experience. I'm like, that's because of X, Y and Z. They're like, Oh, yeah, okay. Like, yeah. These are things that like, are real.
Hannah Awonuga 18:09
And that's the that's the challenge, if you and sadly, I see it a lot, particularly in the UK, when we champion things that we don't understand, you know, we will protest for things that we don't really know why we're protesting, because it's a popular thing maybe, right? We'll vote for things that we don't even really understand the ramifications of these things, right? But if you actually strip back what we're saying, dei is all about just making sure that everybody gets the opportunity, whether they take it, whether they are great at it or not great. That's all still based on fairness. But what? But today, not everyone gets the opportunity, and so that's why you have dei people. That's why you have inclusion to kind of take away the barriers that are in the workplace that we know there. The data says it.
Chris Rainey 18:58
I think early on, when I first came before, I mean, when I first came across di I thought that doesn't apply to me, okay, because I'm a white male, yeah. Like, that's my knee jerk reaction, yeah, yeah, right. Because that's not Oh, that's not for me. That's for everyone else. It isn't Yeah, it doesn't have a voice. And I think that's how some people see it, yeah. They're like, Oh, that's for Yeah, everyone else. And therefore I am losing out. Yeah? Because why is everyone else getting these opportunities and right, like, so then it's like, I feel excluded from that. Can I
Hannah Awonuga 19:29
just challenge you on that? Because that also suggests that dei is just about race. No,
Chris Rainey 19:35
that's what I mean. I'm saying it was a misconception. Yeah, exactly. So I'm saying, I'm saying I, that was my knee jerk, yeah? Fit reaction to it. This is like, a long time ago, but as I, as I obviously, obviously, now it's my job to have these conversations. I'm like, Oh, wow, but, but sometimes that is also the fault of the organizations and companies about how they position it absolutely, because it actually in a way that they communicate. I've seen some of the messaging from other companies. I'm like. And that's actually, you do realize it's kind of ironic that your language is exclusive, is, yeah, it's not inclusive. Yeah, you do realize like you're alienating, and that's people. That's my
Hannah Awonuga 20:10
biggest challenge with some of the organizations that have moved dei into talent functions, because then that is a that is a suggestion that dei is only about talent. That's when, that's when people get really upset, yeah, because actually, then it's like, well, dei is only about making sure that we have the right talent in the business. But what about your clients? What about the communities you serve? What about your CSR, what about your ESG, like, it's dei is all encompassing. But when you have these businesses that move dei into smaller functions within HR, you realize, actually, they're not, they're not seeing the entirety. And then it comes down to representation. That's it, and that's that's half of
Chris Rainey 20:46
the story. When your friends and family ask you, what do you do for a living? How do you answer that question? My
Hannah Awonuga 20:52
daughter asked me that all the time. So I suppose I say that I go into organizations to help them, help them build a culture where everybody feels like they can thrive like that's ultimately, you know, the big picture is that you want to go, you want to work there. You want to feel like you can grow there. You want to feel like your voice is heard. And so you have people like me that can support the senior leadership team to get that right. And so that's what I say. And all the bells and whistles is that you get to do loads of speaking engagements and all of that. But ultimately, particularly for people like me who are in house that work in large corporate organizations, it's about making sure that they've got a culture that everyone wants to be a part of and everyone can follow. And that's why I see dei in the future moving very much into cultural transformation and rather than the people.
Chris Rainey 21:44
So maybe this, also, this current scenario that we're in is a catalyst for pushing us towards that quicker, absolutely. So you were saying, Yeah, but yeah that, but I'm saying like, so you came the first part of this conversation. You had a positive lens, which is great, yeah. So maybe sometimes, in the biggest crisis creates the opportunity to push you in a direction of perhaps you maybe didn't know you were going, Yeah, but I agree with you on that, because also, when you talk about culture, how do you create an inclusive culture that goes beyond your team, yeah, where dei is no longer a function, yeah, and is the role of everyone, yeah, yeah, and every leader in the organization, because that's when it really has impact, yeah, not when you're having to make sure everyone goes through some compliance training every year
Hannah Awonuga 22:28
exactly that, exactly that. And when you think about culture, a lot of people think about their values, or the purpose of the business, sorry, or the vision of the business. Inclusion should absolutely be woven into that. It can't almost be a separate thing. You've got these values about respect and stewardship and all these other things you've got, but then and then there's no inclusion lens on that. So is everyone getting respected in your business? Right? Does everyone feel like they can be heard? And so that's where I see the connection between organizational design, organizational effectiveness, culture and inclusion and the current dei landscape, and so that's what is really exciting. And I recently done a course at Henley Business School, specifically on change management and organizational design, because I think that's really where, you know, professionals like me that really want to stay at that senior level need to be playing. Need to be really thinking about, you know, an organization wants to be profitable, but how did no organization doesn't exist without its people.
Chris Rainey 23:28
There's so many similarities to what you're saying, to the evolution of the HR function and leader themselves. True. Everything you're saying like HR early on used to be categorized and seen as, you know, the fluffy, the admin, payroll, right? And then now it's like, the opposite strategic culture change, transformation, you know, business partner, not even business partner. Like, I don't even like the word HR business partner, because, like, you don't have market business partner. Well, we have to justify their business partner and put it in there. No, they're just, they're just a partner. Like, they're strategic, right? I feel like like, going through the same, similar, like, transfer me,
Hannah Awonuga 24:04
I don't know if you're seeing I'd love to hear because I know you speak to a lot of HR leaders, but a lot of people leaders, like their their titles are changing to people and culture
Chris Rainey 24:13
saying, I mean, they're also going through a similar, like, I mean, I'm going to do for our company everyone, because it's called HR leaders. I'm trying like, we've been thinking, I'm like people leaders, I don't know like, but it's true, like no one want to move away from the stigma of, you know, human resource. I don't think there's ever going to be a time where people think that's cool or okay or makes any sense whatsoever. I don't want to be called a human resource. No, leave, leave a comment in a chat. So people culture, yeah, that's kind of an even transformation. Yeah, you know it's coming into and I think the role of HR is, is going to continue to to evolve, right? I agree, to the point where we're going to have like, AI is also with David, know what's like right now, but you're going to have like, the same way we. Focus on the the financial P and L, we'll have, like, a people and culture, P and L, yeah, yeah, but it will be side by side, right? I agree. And I see, like, how do we create that people and culture, P and L, yeah, in an organization? I
Hannah Awonuga 25:12
think we need to, because titles are so easy to change, right? Yeah. But I I'm still kind of trying to understand and explore if you are a people and culture leader, because culture on its own is huge. Colleague, listening, it's engagement, it's experience, it's all these things. And then people on its own is huge. And so, you know, you've got a lot of kind of senior HR professionals, CPOs, that have been doing the HR space for years. So this people trans transition feels easy to them, but hasn't, haven't really been doing the culture piece. Well, it's
Chris Rainey 25:48
because they've basically changed that. But we have to in order for that to actually change with the fundamentally change the way of work, the way in which you work, and that's like you're basically blowing everything up. Yeah, you're talking about every hierarchy, policies, processes, the way we actually work, whether it hybrid, like basically a lot of companies are trying to, like, do both, yeah, this is my point. You don't work because you're basically trying to say one thing, but you're rewarding people another way. And you're trying to do one thing, but the way people work and rewarded or recognized, and also like how we track, what does success look like, right in this new so I think that's the problem, like, there's like, almost like, a new business operating model transformation and a culture operating model that needs to kind of agree to start from. And it's hard, yeah, it's easy to say it, but to do it at scale and and moving towards being skills based, yeah, organization, being agile, being and, you know, that's removing years of like, you know, most leaders who went through in our generation, like, that's a big change to become talent exporters, rather than talent holders. On my team, that's like a you know, or the fact that your pay is directly linked to, not your skills, but, you know, your time in the business, or your job title, all of that needs to be fundamentally rethink. And I think that's the change. That's the challenge. Yeah,
Hannah Awonuga 27:11
it does. It does, but, but then if you have leaders, because, because, even within HR, it is about your C suite, it is about your executive team, it's about your CEO if they believe that people, their people, can transform their business, then they'll invest the time. I've met some amazing leaders that really, really focus on their people, and they see the results. The results trickle down to their bottom line. It trickles down to the P and L. It trickles down to their clients. It's when you get organizations that are trying to do both and want to just merge everything and not giving the time. And the thought is where actually you see the friction. And a lot of people would ask or argue whether dei should even sit in people, you know, like I do have some colleagues and peers who don't report into a CPO, who report directly into a CEO.
Chris Rainey 27:58
Yeah. I mean, the most successful ones I know of report into the CEO Exactly, and
Hannah Awonuga 28:03
that's where you can really make sure that you're, you're doing this from a strategic business lens. And so it's fundamental to, kind
Chris Rainey 28:12
of coincidentally, those are the ones that are still going right now, yeah, exactly, that are not pulling back. Yeah, the ones that were actually in lockstead with the CEO, or actually speaking out, yeah, you know about it, and being like, you know? So I think that's the difference. And then, to your point, though, the reason that works is it aligned with the business strategy, exactly that, right, exactly that. And it's directly to link to revenue. Yeah, you're never gonna your shareholders and investors are involved in those conversations too, and they want to make sure that's a completely different conversation to what you described earlier, where people are coming in to tick a box because and all because you are, like you said, oh, a black female leader over here or so you fit this box over here that we want. You can come and now you're, hopefully you're gonna be successful. Yeah, we have no support, no budget, no training. Good luck. See ya, you could never
Hannah Awonuga 29:00
say, Oh yeah, because of budgets, we're going to cut the finance team,
Chris Rainey 29:08
or even HR, because you need to hire, right? I mean, cut back on hiring, but you can never completely, whereas
Hannah Awonuga 29:13
in DNI, it feels very disposable. It feels like, oh, we haven't got budget this time, we'll cut DNI. Oh, there's a bit of turbulence externally, will cut D and I like, that's where you see that actually, dei is not woven into the business because you shouldn't be able to, hey,
Chris Rainey 29:27
we generated like, 200 million off of the like, a cool example, we did an event at L'Oreal, and there are, like, Chief Technology, or R and D officer came innovation office. I think it was shared some of the latest products that he'd worked with, specifically with the DI team on and they had some, and he added like, 2 billion revenue. And it was like, one of them was, like, makeup applicators that were self leveling for people with, like, cerebral palsy and stuff. So it's like, as you basically, it doesn't move it like self level. So you could do your makeup right and add like. Lists to applicators, all sorts of different things, right, loads of different products. We generate, like, 2 billion right from working with the DI team and our communities that we serve and our customers and internally our employees, this is a whole and they're like pivoting to beauty tech company now. Wow. When did you think L'Oreal will be a technology company, but, you know, it's not gonna be completely but, I mean, it's just like they've got a whole new
Hannah Awonuga 30:26
Yeah, and, you know, that's such an important message. What you just said there, right? What happens in dei that I don't think we do well, is we don't, we don't measure, so we can't say we've generated this for your business. We don't, we don't get the data or the metrics. We don't, because we because we're so fussed about representation. And don't get me wrong, that is really important. But if you can say to a business, we have generated this amount of revenue for your business, you're not going anywhere. You know, but when? But that's the challenge of dei is that we're still in a space where this is it's a good thing to do. Let's go out to the community. Let's go to the schools, all really important stuff. But if you can actually start to prove that what you are doing is having a business impact, then that is where you know, you know the business sees the value. Now, I know a lot of people will be angry at saying that, because they believe that dei is a good thing to do, and you shouldn't have to connect it to a metrics. You have to just, we should all
Chris Rainey 31:24
it's the one we're looking at. Because if you do that, you'll have more for that, more money, more budget, more opportunity to do all the things that you're doing. Right? Like, you know, they will, they were always talks about, like, HR is not HR. HR is the business. Because it's like you're you. In order to do all that, you have to serve your customer, right? Like it's the customer, and then working backwards, right? So people start with, no, don't stop. HR, start with your your customer first, right? And it's the same thing, like, start with that first, and then you'll get all of budget you want. I tell you those people I'm describing right now, they ain't struggling, yeah, exactly. Investment in the DI team, right? And di is also not even a team is for business. Yes, it's the role of everyone, not the role of their function. And it's very clear. And when Celeste Warren, of who we did an event with, always blows my mind, because, like, when we did the event at their HQ, like all, every single executive turned up to that event, yeah, and that is the unlock when you can I was like, We, so we did an event she was hosting, and every C suite member came along to the event and spoke. And I was like, wow, yeah, okay, this isn't a new thing. This is a wee thing,
Hannah Awonuga 32:32
you know, then that she's invested the time in them leaders, yeah, you know, to make sure that they understand, make sure that they're on board, that they're bought in, yeah, that takes time, but that time that you invest in your leaders will bear.
Chris Rainey 32:43
Yeah, we had the CEO talk from that, from the business, and we had a CMO do a panel together for this, for the market. And then sales team, operations team, finance team, and it was like, this amazing. And I was just like, this is, this is AI. This is, this is how you do. And all of the CHROs in the room were like, I wish I had that relationship. And the one thing is, Celeste shared like you can, but you said, just go and make don't wait. Go and go and approach your your peers, set up meetings, have conversations, reach out, then going to come to you. So they may be if they if they're great, hopefully they do. But if they don't, she made those and it took me and it took time, yeah, to build the trust and the relationships. You're not always going to agree, yeah, as well, right? So you and
Hannah Awonuga 33:23
even with inclusion, it's there's an added layer that is quite difficult to talk about Dei, you know, like it's very difficult to talk about something that maybe you don't have that lived experience from. So if you imagine all the C suite leaders, they are probably quite vulnerable about Dei, right? So you have to invest in the relationship, but also your influencing skills, your people skills are going to come through. Because if you want to talk to a leader about, you know, the LGBTQ community, or about race or about neurodiversity, if it's not part of their lived experience, if it's not part of their life, they will their first hand will be nerves, because, oh, I don't know if I can say the wrong thing, say the wrong thing all of these. So that's how, as a leader, AI leader, you have to have the skill to be able to help them on the journey. Yeah, and that takes time.
Chris Rainey 34:12
Even I've had this situation. I've had this conversation every day, and like when the George Floyd, when George Floyd happened, and everyone was doing all their posts, I didn't post, and because I was like, Oh, what if I say something wrong or thing? And I remember Tasha pulling me up and being like, I'm like, I'm disappointed in you. I was like, what? It's just like you didn't, you do post every day. You're an influence, you have a big following, and you didn't say anything. And I was like, I just don't know what to say. Like, I don't if I say something, what if I say something wrong? She's like, well, that's the problem we have, right? So I was like, okay, cool. So even even me, someone who's having a conversation every day, I was like, What if I say something wrong or like, all people like, who you to talk like? We don't want to hear from you, so, but a lot of time we need those people to speak up.
Hannah Awonuga 34:57
Yeah, and that's the reality, you know. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's really important that people see that everybody deals with this. It's not only, you know, the people that are marginalized. It's actually everyone has a challenge with speaking about it. It's just do it. You have to. We need your voices. We can't just, you know, we can't just all be speaking about our own lived experience, because then it's just, you're talking to somebody who already gets it. It's the people that are in leadership positions. It's white men, it's white women, it's people that are straight talking about, you know, LGBT. It's all of us really trying to champion that, that conversation
Chris Rainey 35:34
that's, yeah, it's tough. It's not and again, it is like, you're not always gonna get right. No, you're not you, and you also to give us a little bit of grace for that as well. Yeah, I think that's the stuff I was worried about. Like, if I now, I kind of, I mean, I've, I've, I've put stuff out there and got heat, have you? Yeah, from di leaders, okay, I had on the conversation, but I had, like, very senior leaders reach out to me, like, I disagree with X, Y and Z, and we had a conversation about it. Some of them not actually. They just wanted to blast me on LinkedIn, but like, I was, like, I don't regret it, because I've to your point. I was, I'll never know exactly, you know, and they didn't deal with it in a great way, to be honest as well. It's kind of ironic given, given that that's their role to give us a safe space, and I'm getting heat for it, like, or even like, I had someone recently messaged me, you know, we do events every week, right? And one of the things that we I speak about with Shane, my co founder and the team, was like, we want to also be diverse in our speakers to come because we want diversity of perspectives and views. And we had like, 16 panels across this big AI HR Summit, and one of the 16 panels had a couple of white guys and a couple of white women. I got so much heat, like, but the rest of the entire, like, the other 15 sessions were super diverse, right? And I got so much heat for that, yeah, like, DMS, messages, emails. And I was like, did you look at the entire some of them even apologize, like, Oh, I didn't see that. I just saw that one post of that one panel on LinkedIn. So I was like, so before check in, yeah, you just your first reaction was just to attack me. And I was like, Did you see the entire program? They literally, I'm so sorry, Chris. Like, I was like, you gotta kind of like, look into it for a second. People
Hannah Awonuga 37:15
only have very short attention spans, right? Yeah. And if you're going through a feed, all you're responding to is, what's on your feed, the knee jerk reaction? Yeah, it's just that knee jerk correct? And usually what happens is people then take a pause and they apologize, like you say, yeah. But at the same time, I suppose when you are going through your feed and you see somewhere like HR leaders, you are going to expect to see that. So yeah, it's a lesson for every business to think about. The lesson from
Chris Rainey 37:41
the lesson for me, the team was like, Guys, even though we know there's a whole 99% of the program is like that, no one's gonna see that. They're just gonna see that one thing. But also, to your point, and I said that to the team, we're not just gonna put people on it just because, no, you can't it. Shouldn't you see what I mean. Like, I see other companies doing it, like, just, let me just fill the fill the gap and just find anyone of color to put on there. That's not, that's not, that's not the right approach
Hannah Awonuga 38:04
either. Because, no, that's not what dei is. The AI isn't just about putting people there because they are black or because, yeah, of a different dimension. But
Chris Rainey 38:11
those people that are mentioning complaining would prefer that, though, yeah, yeah. So it's like, come on, like, I need to, I, like, at some point I need to make sure, like, it's about the actually having the right people on there that are deserving of that. And I do whatever I can and we can to shine the whole point we I'm doing this interview right now, and the show that Natasha does is as well. So we grew up in a multicultural we both grew up, yeah, in a multicultural background, right? I'm South exactly like I was. There's like, people don't believe this when I say this. And there's just two white kids in my class? Yeah, I was one of the two, and it was obvious, and it was black and Indian, yeah, East London, you know, where I grew up. I wasn't married, yeah? Which people won't believe in London. But trust me, and I know after I lived in Woolwich, was even more of a minority. And ever people, you tell people that they're like, Yeah, but you're from London, what you What are you talking about? That's super multicultural. So when I went into the business world in London Bridge, like my first corporate job, and I walked into a massive sales floor, and it was not a single person of color on the floor. I was like, what he's like, Yeah, literally. I was like, where out? And I remember being like, saying it to my manager if I was joking, I was like, we only hire white men. Like, there wasn't even, there was one female on the floor, Annie, Jamaican woman, and, and, and she had a tough time. Yeah, I can imagine being on the floor of 300 white sales when I was like, I was like, wow. Like, and then I brought my friend in, Colin, who's the first, like, actually, black employee, which is crazy, because the company been around for like, 10 years as well. It's just like, it was a lot. And also I was expected to sound and look like everyone else, even though I grew up in East London, they're like, you know, you need to read the Financial Times. Yeah, I need to talk a certain way. And, yeah, actually, there was a elocution coach. No, this is real stuff. Says name. I shouldn't say we had a person. Who basically his job part of sales training was to make you sound a certain way, so you sound more well spoken, because then, of course, then more people will buy from you. Yeah. But to your point, the people I'm saying to are people that represent the cultures and backgrounds that I grew up in, and they don't want everyone to be a posh white guy selling them products. And that's the big
Hannah Awonuga 40:21
from a social mobility perspective, accent bias is one of the biggest challenges, because, apparently, if you don't sound a certain way of your clients, yeah, and there's loads of research out there that says that you're 17% more likely to be put in a back office if you've got an accent.
Chris Rainey 40:38
Yeah, that was me. This is my posture. I said this wine back then, 20 years ago. It's a little bit more rough than it is now. But I was like, wait a minute, so you don't want me to be any part of what I'm bringing to the table. And that was hard to take in. And I was like, and that's from a bring about, that's from a white male perspective, yeah? So when I told you about my friend Colin, who came in imagine from his perspective, yeah, so you want to completely strip everything of who I am as a black male and just water that down and become this construct,
Hannah Awonuga 41:10
sadly, that is a reality that still exists today. Really, yeah, absolutely. And you know, that's why we do the work, right? You know, to make sure that organizes, organizations recognize that that is, that is what people walk into, you know, if you are a black woman, you know, walking into a corporate office with your braids, you know, like I would not 10 years ago. I would never do that. I would never go to the interview with my braids 10 years really, absolutely not. I remember
Chris Rainey 41:36
people. I think that actually listening right now, I remember you telling me about, like people was making comments about your hair, yeah, or even wanted to touch yet you listen, or touching your hand. Like, my wife's black, by the way, everyone listening, they don't know that she's like, context, and I'll be like, what? Yeah. But then same thing for Colin, when he when he came in and he had his cornrows, they were like, oh, yeah, touching his head, yeah? Like the other things that people probably even they don't even think is wrong, yeah?
Hannah Awonuga 42:05
And, you know, I always try to apply grace, right? Like, you can tell
Chris Rainey 42:09
you, because maybe just ignorance, it's ignorance. It is in most no one's intention. I mean, not everyone, but no one's intentionally trying to, like, you know, and
Hannah Awonuga 42:15
that's why the education in the workplace is so important. That's why this work will never go away, Chris, this work will never go away, because we will face these things every single day. And so if you don't have people that are in the ears of leaders telling them, Look, actually, if we want to be more inclusive, then we need to support our leaders and our managers and our people to understand the nuances of of identity, yeah, then you're always going to get that. And, you know, I now walk into businesses very comfortably with my hair however I want I speak the way I speak, but that's probably because of my seniority, right? Like I could, I know comes,
Chris Rainey 42:52
if it comes with experience. That's true. Because I was always like, why is like? Now it's weird. The more experience I've got, the less care about what the hell no one thinks like before, I used to be clean shaven, Suit Tie every day like, you know, thinking I had to be a talk a certain way. And now I'm like, Oh, well, do what I want, where I want. And what I realized by that is, though, is like for by me doing that, it also allows my team and my employees to do that. Yeah, you know, I'm not like, trying to No, I don't need clones. Yeah. And he'd use a Bri you. And if that means you wearing whatever, that's fine. If we go to meetings, obviously we'll dress up a little bit more. But in the comfort of our office, who you, who you show, who you showing
Hannah Awonuga 43:35
up for? Yeah? And that's why my visibility is so important to me. You know, I've built my platform on LinkedIn over the last maybe six years. Yeah, and when I speak to people and when they tell me about the impact that I have, it's because they don't normally see black women in senior positions that talk freely, talk about their religion, talk about their experiences in a leadership position. And it's so important, because you give license for others, you know, you tell them that it actually it's okay. It's okay to be yourself. It's okay to wear your braids. It's okay to, you know, have a bit of an accent, I always say, and it was a mentor that said this to me, just be yourself with skill, though,
Chris Rainey 44:09
right? So I like that, be yourself, but you got the skills
Hannah Awonuga 44:13
with the skill. You see, you walk into rooms, right as yourself, but the refined version of yourself, the elevated version of yourself, so that you can command the respect that you are due. You don't have to become like everyone else, or try to, you know, be somebody else because you're trying to fit in. Yeah, that's the job. That's my job, to kind of help the environment, help the culture of the business, realize that we want all types of identities.
Chris Rainey 44:40
I love that. I remember there was a moment for me when I realized that I hit a certain point in my career where I didn't have to do it anymore, and in the sales context, it was because I was generating millions of pounds for the business. So I obviously it's a bit easier, but I just remember being like, Oh, I don't that's no longer required of me. Yeah. And if it was, even if it was, I just don't care anymore. And if that means that I can't work here, then whatever. But that's a privilege, so I want to be clear on that. And I know I'm very lucky that I reached a position to do to do that as well. So I want to be clear on that bit as well, but, but going
Hannah Awonuga 45:17
back to your point on generation, I think the Gen Z's have more of that. They've got more of this. I am. Who are they
Chris Rainey 45:25
not having it? Yeah, they don't care. No. I mean good in a good way. I mean they're like, I'm not willing to sacrifice who I am for a job. Yeah,
Hannah Awonuga 45:32
yeah. And so again, that what does that mean to businesses? That means that actually, for businesses, they have to be adaptable. They have to be agile, because they don't want to lose top talent because they don't allow
Chris Rainey 45:42
or, like, authentic and relatable, yeah? I just like enough of like, this whole, like this, whole, no one cares about your glass door. I decide, you know, I mean, like, if people they still, like, oh, glass door. Like, how about you? Just post an authentic conversation with some of your team on LinkedIn that when they're being vulnerable, yeah? Like, how about that? Yeah? Like, you know, like, and you don't have all the answers, and it isn't all roses in your company, and everything's perfect. Because the reality is, when people join, they'll find out anyway, yeah, you can paint the perfect picture you want online, but when people come and they join, yeah, they're gonna be like, All right, I'm just gonna leave
Hannah Awonuga 46:17
this as fast. And I think that's so that's absolutely accurate, because maybe 15 years ago, if you started on day one and it wasn't, and they sold you a dream and it wasn't what,
Chris Rainey 46:26
stay there, you'd stay Yeah? But
Hannah Awonuga 46:29
now they're like, sorry, they're calling
Chris Rainey 46:33
their own probation, yeah? But there also wasn't the social media true, so you couldn't find out, yeah? So now there's the thing called social media. You haven't heard of it, and the Internet, where people and employees are happy to put a tick tock up of their experience. Yeah, or so you can very quickly look up companies and find out everything now exactly because that wasn't a thing, yeah, I had no idea what. I had a website link, yeah, for the company that I was working for. And
Hannah Awonuga 46:59
that's what I think we need to just be conscious of when we're regressing on Dei, because your future talent, your future employees, they are going to look you up. And if there's headlines that this company regress on Dei, that's going to make them make decisions that might not favor you. And so you have to think about actually the future of the workforce from a generational perspective. It's so, so important. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 47:24
I can talk to you forever. I know I just realized, like, I've got, I actually have to go, but I'm so excited to have you here, and I'm excited for you, for what's next for you. Yeah, I'm excited and that you're at a point where you can do, you can do that and explore it. And, yeah, where can people find connect with you? You've done a reach out, and then
Hannah Awonuga 47:41
obviously connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm all about inclusion, transformation, culture and yeah, just LinkedIn is probably my main place. And then also, you know, hammernoga.com is where you can get in contact with me, if you'd love me to come and do any work with you. Got the
Chris Rainey 47:56
whole website name and everything. Yeah, everyone listening as always, wherever you're watching, listening right now, all those links will be in the description, so make sure you go connect with Hannah. Such a pleasure. I look forward to it again soon. Awesome. Thanks so much. You.
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