How Aveva Built a Unified Culture after M&A
In this episode, I'm joined by Caoimhe Keogan, Chief People Officer at Aveva.
Caoimhe delves deep into Aveva's journey post-M&A, emphasizing the pivotal role of relationship-building and trust in shaping a unified organizational culture. The episode also touches upon the rapidly changing dynamics in CSR and ESG and their implications for the modern workplace.
We did an exercise to align on what cultural preference and style we actually want to have as number one. And we agreed that it would be relationships and a focus on our people, and building trusted community and relationships. Followed by results orientation, because we believed that focusing on people first is what delivers results
A highlight of this episode is the candid discussion on the mounting pressures and challenges faced by HR leaders, with many choosing alternative career paths.
Join us for a deep dive into the intricacies of organizational transformation and the evolving role of HR.
Episode Highlights
Aveva's post-M&A journey, emphasizing the importance of aligning cultural preferences with a focus on relationships
The changing dynamics in CSR and ESG and their impact on today's work environment
How the surge of crisis is igniting burnout amongst HR Leaders driving many to leave the profession.
Five tips to increase Workplace Productivity
Accelerate your business growth with workforce upskilling. Implement IDC's top five strategies to build an agile, future-ready team. Invest in your employees' skills today, align their growth with your business objectives, and witness unparalleled success.
🎙️ Automatically generated Podcast Transcript
Caoimhe 0:00
And we did the exercise to align on what cultural preference and style we actually want to have as number one. And we agreed that it would be relationships and a focus on our people, and building trusted community and relationships. So that would be the most important cultural style for us, followed by results orientation, because we believed that you know, focusing on people first is what delivers results
Chris Rainey 0:32
I've won Welcome back to the HR leaders podcast on today's episode, I'm joined by Caoimhe Keogan, Chief People Officer at Aveva. During episode Kivas shares how Aviva are building a unified culture after an m&a How di CSR and ESD are changing the way we work today. And how the surge of crisis is igniting burnout amongst HR leaders driving money to leech profession. As always, before we jump into the video, make sure you hit the subscribe button, turn on notification bell and follow on your favourite podcast platform. With that being said, let's jump in. For those that can see you on video. I feel like I'm overwhelmed with the book choices behind you. What's on the list what's on the current reading this for you.
Caoimhe 1:14
The probably the books I'm reading are not here. Because they're there beside my bed because I would read myself to sleep most nights. The sad thing being that I usually get about two pages, and then you're done. Increasingly takes me longer these days to get to get through something
Chris Rainey 1:31
out of it. I always end up falling asleep. And I'm like, why did i Why did I leave off? Especially if it's an audio book. I'm like, oh my god, it doesn't pause itself. So like, where did I fall asleep? I have no idea. Anyway, before we jump into level a little bit more about you personally, and your journey to where we are now.
Caoimhe 1:47
What can I tell you about me? I was born and I grew up in Northern Ireland through maybe a challenging period of history rise, you know, late 70s 80s and 90s. It was the mid 90s Before we had ceasefires and the peace process proper. And you know, I started my career there in 2000. So over 20 years ago, and a lot of the work that I did initially was in the public sector and in policing and justice, it was transforming rapidly on the back of the peace process in Northern Ireland. And I gone to university and studied psychology and then I did a master's in organisational psychology. So actually those skills around how do you build on biassed Assessment and Selection processes that we can use to transform the demographics of some of the institutions in Northern Ireland that were predominantly, you know, staffed by people from one side of the community and a lot of the post conflict justice in Northern Ireland was all about taking, like the police service, for example, and restoring trust and faith in that from all sides of the community. And you know, so I worked on things like that early on in my career, which was, which was pretty influential, I think in everything that I've done was the plan
Chris Rainey 3:15
always to move into HR, because typically a lot of people to study what you mentioned, they navigate into HR Somehow
Caoimhe 3:21
I don't think it was when I went to university to study psychology, I was very much just interested in human behaviour. I don't think I have thought about what the applications of it could be. And mostly when you think about it is more in that counselling and clinical, psychological sort of, you know, failed. And I had at one point thought about studying medicine. So I was probably more interested in the medical side of it. Maybe I thought I was going to be a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist, or whatever. But I've also always loved working. So I had a you know, part time job from I was 1314 years old, I worked the whole way through school, I work to support myself through University studying psychology and getting an Introduction to Business psychology and understanding that there were really practical applications and ways that psychology and an understanding of human behaviour can be super useful. Inside organisations, there was just something that clicked and that's why I did then go on and study organisational psychology in more depth because I liked working. I mean, when I was at university, I was probably working up on 30 hours a week, which some people consider a full time job, you know, I did that along with along with studying and I loved working and I really enjoyed you know, being in companies figuring out you know, what the business was about I always find it really interesting even if I was doing a frontline job on the cashier, right. But you know, so then I think it was just It was just that and I, you know, I would say moving into HR proper didn't really happen until it's a 10 years into my career. Oh, wow. Well, because really, I started as a consultant, and it was quite specialised, you know, doing some of that work. I talked about designing psychometric tests, doing Leadership and Development assessment centres. I mean, it is a branch of HR, I think, but you know, it's a bit more, actually. And I had never worked in a more operational HR role until I was at Google. You know, I'd spent eight, nine years in consulting. Then I went to work at Google in Dublin. Firstly, and learning and development, but then I moved into HR business partner role. And that was really then I would I call anyway, HR proper, right? I was doing that job.
Chris Rainey 5:52
So what was what was the key focus is you and the team right now, I think you mentioned last time we spoke, you're in the middle of sort of unifying cultures of the different organisations you've acquired, where are you in that process?
Caoimhe 6:04
Yeah, that's, that's been really exciting. So I'm just over two years in the role of viva. And shortly after I joined two years ago, we did a major acquisition, I would say almost merger with another large software business in our space. So we're in the industrial software space. And this merger, you know, brought almost a third of the employees that we have today. So it was really significant. We did a big piece of work around unifying culture, it was, it was really exciting. That's part of the reason why I joined when I met the CEO, he said, I'm taking this cultural integration really seriously. Because I recognise that that is a huge part of the success of any any acquisition is being really thoughtful about cultures, and how we bring them together, and how we unify the culture and not making assumptions around how it might be, we did a really, you know, interesting piece of work to evaluate the cultural styles and preferences that existed in both the Viva business and then the OSI soft business that we were acquiring, and took some time to understand the similarities and differences from a kind of objective perspective, right? In both of those companies actually
Chris Rainey 7:22
do that. What does that practically look we
Caoimhe 7:24
used to, we used a cultural assessment tool that sort of looks at cultural styles. It's a big set, you know, it's a big survey that you send out to employees. And it asks a bunch of questions about how they, how they see the world and how, how things get done, and how they sort of see, see their organisation, and then it categorises it into eight cultural styles. I think that it's based on a model called OPI OC AI, I promise you, I don't know what those letters stand for. But it sort of gives it gives definition of organisational culture. So we surveyed, you know, we surveyed all of the teams and then use that data to compare and understand what was similar. And what was different. And what was really interesting is that you you have eight cultural styles in this model, and it ranks in order one to eight. And the top four cultural styles were the same in both companies. And the bottom four were the same, but what are the top two are the same, except number one, and number two were opposite in the two companies. So what was quite interesting was our employees or people would say, oh, sometimes we feel this tension. We feel like we're quite different in our cultures, and you're able to say, actually, yes, that's right, because the number one and the number two cultural styles are opposite, but they're just flipped. So actually, when you look at the bigger picture, what you can say is there is more that is similar in our cultures, that is different, but where we feel the tension, sometimes the cultural clash is the prioritisation of the number one and the number two cultural style. So I'll give you a really practical example. And I'm paraphrasing things, one cultural preferences around results orientation, an organisation that's very driven around results. And another cultural style might have been around a very relationship driven culture. And those were flipped. So one company had results one relationships two and the other, the other side had relationships one and result two, and that's where people felt the tension at times, but actually, you know, out of the eight cultural styles, those were the two predominant styles and each company so, so definitely we could say there is more than a similar about our cultures that is different. And then we did the exercise to align on what cultural preference and style we actually want to have as number one, and we agreed that it would be relationships and a We focus on our people, and building trusted community and relationships. So that would be the most important cultural style for us, followed by results orientation, because we believed that, you know, focusing on people first is what delivers results. Right?
Chris Rainey 10:15
Did you share your initial results with the business? We did? So we talked about that, what was the reaction from them?
Caoimhe 10:24
I think it's a good exercise to do. You know, even as I'm talking to you about it, it will sound a bit academic, I think people found that interesting. I think it's a very positive message to say that we aspire for our culture to be very people centric, and I think people appreciate that. But ultimately, people are going to judge by what they experience on the ground. So you can say that's what you aspire to have, when people will truly become believers, when they actually experienced that day in day out.
Chris Rainey 10:52
I think what's great about it, though, you mentioned it sounds a bit academic, but it gives the employees and yourselves a language to have conversations. Yes, we would. Have you asked someone how do you describe each employee? How do you describe a culture, they will give you 1000? different answers. But now you've had you've shared those results, they would say we are a people driven, or we are results driven, and this is now where we're going. So immediately, everyone can have that conversation. And you and you and the team have a very solid starting point, the starting point of where we're going to, okay, this is what we know. Now, this is how we're going to do it.
Caoimhe 11:26
Yeah. And the other thing we did them was we we articulated a new set of values based on that. Right. So we said, you know, very, very people centric, you know, trusted relationships inside the company and outside with our customers. That's what we want. And then we use that as the guidance to say, okay, you know, how do we want to articulate and code down a set of new values for this combined company. So again, quite important, when you're thinking about, you know, big acquisitions that we tried not to assume that the larger company would subsume the smaller company, and that they would need to align to the values of the larger, the larger company, actually, this integration was so transformative and so significant, that it was the right moment to rethink and conclude a set of values for the new for the new Aviva. Right. And that's what we did.
Chris Rainey 12:22
That's the pillar realise. Right? That's just the beginning. Is the journey and your is your embedding in every single stage of the employee lifecycle to make sure that it becomes part of the culture and is present in every moment is there from the very beginning to when they're promoted to holding leaders accountable? I also linking it back to leadership's compensation, for example,
Caoimhe 12:45
I would say less though, at this point, right. I think what we do link quite strongly into leaders compensation, because obviously, of course, there's strong financial measures that that shape a good chunk of that, but what we do, we do put into our leader, most senior leader compensation is progress on ESG. Okay, so our ESG targets and KPIs form part of our senior leader compensation, because ESG on our ESG strategy, or sustainability strategy is very important to us talk about
Chris Rainey 13:25
that, because it's something you know, even five years ago, something that didn't even come up as a conversation that HR would even be involved in, many years ago. What do you see as hrs role in ESG?
Caoimhe 13:36
I mean, I think any executive or any, you know, leader at the top table of a company, regardless of function needs to be thinking about ESG, because it's not just one person's responsibility, right? It becomes the entire leadership's team. But when you get into it at a functional level, I would say the, the s, of ES and G, I mean, most of what we think about, you know, fall falls quite squarely within the HR space or within my accountability, but also under the EA to a certain extent. So when we think about our scope, one and two emissions and the operational footprint of our business, because I have a HR remit that includes facilities or what we would call workplace experience, obviously thinking about our energy usage and our, you know, 60 plus offices that we have around the world, right, we switch to entirely renewable energy as part of reducing our scope one and two emissions, so that my team is responsible for making that happen. As we think about new offices, then we're very mindful and very conscious about, you know, sustainable buildings and green buildings and what's the standard that we want to have in our buildings. When we think about some of our social commitments, it's to do with things like, you know, learning and development for our people investing in the team. We have a CSR programme called action for good which is is where we give our employees three days paid leave a year to volunteer, and whatever way they want to do it. I'm the sponsor for that, because I think giving back to the communities in which we operate is hugely motivational for lots of our people. And it's also really important for wellbeing. Because well being is quite high on the agenda of most HR leaders these days, I would say, and when you think about proven strategies for increasing well being volunteering is actually a really is a really good one. So just giving that signal to people that if they want to volunteer for good causes, they can do that on our time. I think that's super helpful. We also made a commitment. So in the UK, we joined the 5% Club, which is a commitment to have 5% of our workforce be early careers by which we define sort of apprenticeships, internships, graduate hiring. So we set ourselves some goals around that. We also set ourselves some goals around diversity as part of our ESG strategy. And again, my team takes the lead, but it's not, you know, solely working on that.
Chris Rainey 16:07
How does that link? How does the How does DNI and ESG?
Caoimhe 16:10
Yeah, so DNI is it in a way, it's kind of a subset of ESG. That's how we think about it. Because you know, the big picture environmental, social and governance perspective, we would see our D E and IA strategy as being a contributor to that right under that sort of social and to certain extent, governance aspects of the strategy. DNI is
Chris Rainey 16:36
core to that was somebody the commitments you've made. So we've
Caoimhe 16:41
made a commitment around gender diversity. And as I said, Chris, we are an industrial software business. So software in and of itself, tends to be, you know, less balanced from a gender perspective. But then I would say, when you go into the industrial software world, that actually magnifies the challenge to a certain extent, and because of the nature of our customer base, and where our software is installed, and also where we get our people from, because actually, our users and our customers are a reasonable source of the talent that actually comes in and works in our organisation, somebody works with Aviva software and their day job gets really excited about what we can do with it, and then often comes and at some stage works for us. So we have a, you know, we have a gender imbalance in our workforce. So we've made some commitments around that, we've said that by 2030, we would like to be in a position where our hiring is balanced. So there were, you know, as if we made 100 hires that, you know, 50 of them would be women. So trying to get to a more gender balanced hiring pipeline, we said that we would like to have 40% of all managers in the company as women, and 30% of leaders, which is kind of the top tier team. So we made those commitments by by 2030. And, you know, given given where we were starting that's, you know, that's that's quite a punchy set of commitments, or our logic being that if you don't set really big aspirational goals, then you will make progress.
Chris Rainey 18:20
Yeah, no, I brought up because when I saw it on the website, I stood out to me because you know, 50% women, new hires, I just said 40% Women managers and 40%, women leadership was very aspirational, as well. But you have to, as you said, you have to, you have to be,
Caoimhe 18:34
yeah, you see, I think that's right, there's two ways to go about these things. We, we could have done a very detailed, you know, based on how things work today, where do we think we could get to by two, and when you take that kind of approach, it inevitably drives a conservative way of thinking, because nobody wants to set a target that they can't feel they can hit. But actually, what I really appreciated about our leadership and our board at Aviva, is we are aspirational. And there is a willingness to say, Okay, let's be really ambitious, in some of the targets that we're setting, particularly around ESG. Because unless we are we're not going to make we're not going to make that progress. You know, we've made some commitments around Net Zero, we've made commitments around our, you know, reduction in in our emissions, we've worked quite hard to have those validated, and we're starting to get some recognition now as a company that is, you know, has that science based targets or targets that have been validated as if we hit those they will actually have have an impact. So it's a big part. It's a big part of our narrative, and Aviva ESG.
Chris Rainey 19:50
Yeah, I love it. I know you're very active in the community, as well when I saw on the website, a lot of different projects that you're working on and a lot of different and groups do you set up for our organisation? The What? What? What are some of the things that you're most proud of that you see taking place, both internally and externally in the communities that you serve?
Caoimhe 20:09
Yeah, I mean, I think our action for good programme is is a brilliant programme. And I, you know, this was up and running long before I joined Aviva and I have loved to see how really tangible and local it is, right? Because sometimes you set up these corporate, you know, charity partnerships, or whatever that operate at a top level? Or is this really local, because we're really geographically dispersed as a company, right, we're in we have over 60 offices in 50 countries. So what I love is that, you know, the team in Bangalore will do something very local, very specific for a charity or an organisation that is close to their heart. I mean, and What's brilliant about it, Chris is anytime I travel, to meet our teams anywhere in the world, nearly always they say Kiva, will you come and do an action for Good afternoon with us. So I just had some ways I just think God isn't it's such a privilege. And my job, you know, I was in Hyderabad, last year with the team in India, and they took me to see a school for blind kids that we sponsor that we volunteer in. And that's how they choose to spend, you know, both the money that the company will give and their time, whereas then I went to Malaysia, and with the team in Kuala Lumpur went to see a community garden that grows foods for a local community and distributes fresh fruit and vegetables. And that's where our team are volunteering there. I mean, it's just, it's really, it's really lovely when you empower local teams, and don't tell them that they have to work with a particular corporate charity or partnership that they can actually just go and, and work with something locally that resonates for them. That's amazing. So I think action for Good is it's really a big, it's a big day for us. And and then of course, we use it for team building as well. Cool. So whatever, our people are coming together, and teams are having off sites, and they're thinking, Okay, shall we do an activity, we always say, Go volunteer, right? You know, yes, you could spend money and bring in somebody to do some kind of fun team building activity. But actually, we think you'll have a better afternoon if you go donate your time to doing something worthwhile. We use it in bookstores context, right, just as individuals giving their time but also as a team building activity. So
Chris Rainey 22:32
it's something that's going to stay with them. I said, it's something that they're in personally invested in, they're there. It's in their community, the people that they serve, as well. And I'm assuming you would, how does it work? You just have some guidelines around this that you provide, obviously, is there specific, who's typically the owners,
Caoimhe 22:51
we organise it through regional committees. Okay, so we have a committee for, you know, Asia Pacific committee for the Americas committee for EMEA. And then within that we have country leaders. And again, these are volunteers. So it operates a bit like employee resource groups tend to operate, you know, you sort of get a bunch of volunteers self interested organise themselves, my team provides a little bit of oversight and a place for them to come and ask questions. But then really, you know, if somebody wants to fund something, because it's a it's a combination of time and money that runs through this programme, and if somebody wants to fund a particular cause, and says, you know, I need a, I need a donation from the company of x, and actually comes to the Regional Committee, which has an employee committee rather than coming to me. And that regional committee has a budget for the year and they make
Chris Rainey 23:45
again, you're a power nimish shouldn't shouldn't sit with you in the team. You're just providing guidance to that perspective, which is again, even what they're even more excited more about. Today, that way. Listen, before I let you go, I want to jump into our quickfire round. So I'm going to ask you some questions, but you have no longer than 30 seconds per question.
Caoimhe 24:08
That will be hard for me.
Chris Rainey 24:11
We'll see how you get on. What was your hobbies and passions outside of the outside of work?
Caoimhe 24:18
I love being in the outdoors. So I would say running, held walking, cold water, swimming anything that gets me outside.
Chris Rainey 24:26
I feel like you just scared half the audience. They're all the things that they wouldn't do. Running up a hill Cold War.
Caoimhe 24:34
Don't run very fast and stay in the cold water for very long. I nature takes me out.
Chris Rainey 24:44
I started trying to do the whole Cold Shower thing sort of the Wim Hof Method. Yeah, and it's hot. It's due that's all I'm surviving like 30 seconds to a minute in cold water, but I feel like I'm progressing slowly but surely.
Caoimhe 24:56
Here's my tip I would get I would do Salma and cold water. Because I actually think that's way easier. I agree with you, I can't stand under a cold shower either. Yeah, I can get out of a very hot sauna into something very cool. Really
Chris Rainey 25:09
Yeah, for about ordering one as well. And again, like slow small ones you can order for your house or your garden. I think I'll try it out. But idea of doing that first thing in the morning is pretty daunting. But I feel like if you can do that, the rest of your day is fine. You know, like, if I can do if I can really challenge my mind and body first thing, the rest of the day is gonna feel like a piece of cake after as well. So love that. How do you say your family and friends would describe what you do for a living?
Caoimhe 25:36
They would just say that she works in HR for a software company. I think they get that I'm not sure that anybody knows what the day to day involves?
Chris Rainey 25:43
Yeah, it's better than them saying you hire and fire people. So that's
Caoimhe 25:48
fair actually. used to say when he was little, she's a boss. Yes, I guess. You're just a boss, aren't you? You're in charge of the people. Not all of the people. But yeah,
Chris Rainey 25:58
it's not a bad press not a bad view. Well, what legacy Do you want to leave behind for your family,
Caoimhe 26:05
I want to show my kids a good work ethic, I think they already see that. I mean, they may argue that I work a little bit too much. Because I have I have two kids 11 and 13. And I travel quite a bit with my job. So there used to be being away. But I think they you know, know what work ethic looks like and know that if you work really hard in life, you can succeed and achieve whatever you want to achieve. But I also want them to understand, and I did talk about my work quite a lot with them. And I talk a lot about fairness and equity in the workplace and some of the things that I'm trying to drive. So I hope that when they grow up and you know, start working, that they're able to make choices about good organisations to be involved in versus not, and know that, you know, you can make those choices, and it's important to be able to make them.
Chris Rainey 26:56
And also to the point you just mentioned how they treat others on that journey. Right? What do you think HR leaders don't talk about enough, but they really should.
Caoimhe 27:06
It is a very difficult position being the HR leader in an executive team. Because whilst you're part of the team, you're also conscious that there's a role that you play in the team that can make people a little wary of you at times, right. It's a very privileged position in some ways, but it can be it can be difficult. In that sense. I think that from a mental health perspective, you're right, where HR leaders get their support from our other HR leaders. And the real conversations happen in small groups where there is a real trusted relationship. And I have those two, right I you know, I have various dinners that you get invited to, which can be, you know, from large to intimate, but I actually have a really small group. There's just a couple of people, but we meet quite regularly and it is like HR therapy, right? It's you can bring anything to that conversation. Do I think any of those topics we should be speaking about more publicly? Yeah, I mean, maybe about the numbers of people leaving our profession. You know, I get, as you know, most people do. So that, you know, we get a lot of phone calls right about opportunities and about jobs. And I often wrack my brains to think about my network, because I, you know, part of why I love doing what I do is I connect people, you know, I love connecting people. So even if I'm not actively looking for a job, I might take the call, because I think, oh, I want to hear what this is about, this could be a really great job. And there might be somebody in my network, who might be interested in it. But it's actually really, it's really hard because so many HR leaders right now, they reach a certain level, they become a little bit disillusioned with the challenges of the job and what they're having to what they're having to do. And what I increasingly seeing them doing is stepping out and working independently. Yeah, I mean, do I don't know what the data would say. But I think there's some really interesting trends, post pandemic, HR leaders saying, I'm not doing this anymore, I will step out, I will work as an independent consultant. I'm going to pick and choose where I spent my time in which organisations I work with. But I'm not prepared to do this job inside companies anymore, because it's too much. Maybe that's a conversation that should be happening more publicly.
Chris Rainey 29:29
I'm so happy you mentioned that. And I felt like that's exactly why I asked that question, because not enough people talk about things like that. And to your point. I've been doing this for 15 years. And obviously I speak to leaders like yourself every day. I've never seen so many leaders leaders leave the profession in a lot. And I have in the last couple of years, which is completely understandable, by the way, given what we've gone through, as well, but no one's really talking about it.
Caoimhe 29:54
For so long. HR leaders were constantly engaged in that narrative. I have, do I have a seat at the table? Do people value what we do is the same value placed on HR as it is in some of the other functions in the business nearly always finance, right? It was always a comparison to the CFO or to finance. And because the onset of the pandemic, and then all of these kind of people crises over the last couple of years, that questions kind of gone away. And I think that's what I worry about, which is the question about whether or not we need a senior HR leader, whether that has a seat at the table, that's no longer the question. And I worry a little bit that, that means that we're sort of taking everything that's thrown at us because we're eventually sort of saying, Oh, we're proving our value, none, right, because we have this insecurity about whether or not we add real value to a business. But look at this, we can manage crises, we can, you know, we can lead a company through the pandemic, we can, you know, deal with the impacts of war in Europe on our business, look at us look at how we can lead through all of that. And that's what we've been asked to do. So I think, you know, that that's maybe part of the dilemma, we, you know, we sort of take on everything in this ongoing desire to prove our value to the business. And we never stop and say, this is all now this is all now too much.
Chris Rainey 31:21
I'm saying this right now on people on LinkedIn. And here, I want to post this on LinkedIn to hear everyone's thoughts, I feel like it will open up some amazing dialogue that needs to be had. Last question before I let you go? What advice would you give to the next generation, you know, those HR leaders of tomorrow, they're going to be sitting in your seat someday,
Caoimhe 31:39
it's a little bit linked to our previous conversation. But I would say, don't try and be a hero, or a heroine. Too often I see HR leaders who are in companies and organisations and sort of position themselves as I'm the only person who cares about the people sort of putting themselves in this heroic role of, you know, maybe an organisation where the culture isn't what, what they aspire it to be. And I would say just be really be really critical about that. If you find yourself in a situation where you're in an organisation and you're staying in an organisation because you think you're the only person who can make the experience better for the people, then the culture is just off and you shouldn't be there. Right? I think that it is not your responsibility alone, and one person can't, one person can't make that change or that impact. You've got to be in a company where you feel like the whole leadership team shares the same values as you and aspires for the same experience for their people and has, you know, the same aspirations around the culture. You know, don't put yourself in this heroic role of, I can save it all as one person because I care deeply about the people, because you won't be able
Chris Rainey 32:58
to, again, you only get that by doing it and experiencing it. Like you're on the journey. So amazing advice, right? You find out the hard way, unfortunately, many, many times and I spoke to many leaders like yourself that have made a decision. Actually, this is not the place for me, I'm going to leave. And it's hard to they've got bills to pay. They've got mortgages, they've got families, but they realised that I'm just running into a brick wall. Listen, I really appreciate you coming on the show. I think it's been super powerful, like I think so many great takeaways for the audience. So I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. I wish you all the best until next week. Thank you so much.
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