How HR Leaders Can Avoid Burnout
Rachel Druckenmiller, CEO of Unmuted, shares her journey from burnout to living a life of purpose. She discusses the importance of unmuting yourself, setting boundaries, and embracing vulnerability. Learn how self-affirmation and finding your voice can lead to more meaningful work and relationships.
In today’s episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we welcome Rachel Druckenmiller, keynote speaker, facilitator, and CEO of Unmuted.
Rachel shares her personal journey from burnout to living a life of purpose and passion. She dives into the transformative power of unmuting yourself, embracing vulnerability, and setting boundaries to live authentically and with greater impact.
Rachel also reveals how overcoming self-doubt and finding your voice can lead to more meaningful work and relationships, and she shares the lessons she learned from her own experiences and coaching others.
🎓 In this Episode, Rachel Discusses:
Strategies for aligning your actions with what brings you the most joy and fulfillment.
Simple practices to boost your confidence and remind yourself of your inherent worth.
The importance of embracing vulnerability and finding your voice to live more authentically.
How setting boundaries and prioritizing self-care can lead to a more balanced and fulfilling life.
Deel is the all-in-one payroll and HR platform for global teams.
Deel helps companies simplify every aspect of managing a workforce, from onboarding, compliance and performance management, to global payroll, HRIS and immigration support.
Deel works for full-time employees and independent contractors in more than 150 countries, compliantly.
And getting set up takes just a few minutes.
Rachel Druckenmiller 0:00
Look, you've got one shot here. You've got one shot here. And if you are holding yourself back and you're muting yourself and you are letting doubt dictate what you do, you are going to end up living a life for somebody else and not for yourself, and you are worthy of living the kind of life that excites you. You're worthy of living the kind of life that fulfills you. You're worthy of living the kind of life that makes you feel alive. And you first and foremost. And I'll say this because this, I wrote a song about my first song is called somebody, and the song ends with the words, you are somebody. You matter, you are enough. I often do this in rooms. I was just in a room earlier this week, about 1000 people, and I had everyone put a hand on their heart, and I said, I want you to repeat after me, and I want you to think about the most insecure, unworthy version of yourself, and I want you to speak these words to that person. I want you to say, I am somebody, I matter, and I'm enough.
Chris Rainey 1:13
Rachel, welcome to the show. How are you?
Rachel Druckenmiller 1:15
I'm doing so great. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today. I
Chris Rainey 1:19
love like the patterns the earrings, and then, like, I feel like the earrings are matching the artwork behind you to peacock
Rachel Druckenmiller 1:27
I'm obsessed with peacocks. I have, like, 57 of them in some form. My friend's daughter counted them one day. Fun
Chris Rainey 1:34
fact, you have peacocks or whatever. Whoa, what I already know. I feel like we don't know each other that well. But I feel like I know you well enough that you've linked that back to some of the work that you do, in some way about spreading the feathers. Or, I don't know you've got some angle, right? Tell us. Tell us the story of Amanda peacock. I know you've already got some like this is a story of what this represents. Well,
Rachel Druckenmiller 2:03
I mean, for me, my creature was like butterflies for a while, because it's like, the caterpillar turns into the butterfly, oh yeah, and expands, yeah. Then I started, I just started seeing peacocks, like, everywhere I went, like, they showed up at our honeymoon, they showed up at a vacation. Year later, they showed up. They just kept showing up. And I the thing that I like about peacocks, like, I have one right here. It's a paper Wale.
Chris Rainey 2:21
You might even joke them to me as I love it. You're a peacock lady now, so like, whenever, so now everyone just buys you gifts whenever.
Rachel Druckenmiller 2:30
Like, they're bold, they're expansive, they let themselves show up and be seen. They're not hiding like they are unmute. If I could, like, if, if an animal could embody what it means to be unmuted to me. Op, I knew it
Chris Rainey 2:40
so when I was thinking about the what and we're going to talk about unmuting yourself and what that means, that is a perfect expression of of that. So that's so I'm so happy. I just randomly said that now we're seeing that because only I would I just pick on people's artwork behind them or things in the room. There's never normally that deep of a story, but I knew there would be one with you. That's a crazy way to start the episode. But so for everyone listening, tell them a little bit more about you personally and your background sort of to the work that you do now. Yeah. So
Rachel Druckenmiller 3:07
I spent the first 13 years of my career working in Employee Benefits consulting. So I've worked with HR leaders my whole career, and I was the director of well being and employee engagement, and I started there as an intern, like, actually, if I'm proof of what happens if you take good care of your interns? Because
Chris Rainey 3:22
I stayed there, where, where was that? What company,
Rachel Druckenmiller 3:24
it was called, what's what's now called a Lara group. So there are benefits, benefits consulting, and so, yeah, I started as an intern for four years in college, and then I went worked there full time, and I was very intrapreneurial, so that I basically got to map my own career path. And I started as an intern, and I left as the National Director of well being and employee engagement.
Chris Rainey 3:45
Wow. So he was dead. How long was that? Did you say he was there for 13
Rachel Druckenmiller 3:49
years? I was there like after college, full time, and then I've been on my own now, speaking and training full time for five years with my own business.
Chris Rainey 3:57
So tell us a bit more about that. What was the inspiration behind that and but what's the specific focus that you have? Yeah,
Rachel Druckenmiller 4:03
so for me, I believe that what I'm here to do is to help people shift from a place of fear and doubt and insecurity and silencing themselves and holding themselves back to a place of possibility, a place of momentum, a place of confidence and courage, so that they show up in their work, in their life, in a way that's fulfilling, in a way that they can have greater influence, they can have greater impact, and they can have less regret. And I think there's just too many people that are walking around and they're they're feeling stuck in some way. They're they're holding something about themselves back, and it's preventing them from doing what they're meant to do in the world. And so I get to be like a catalyst, a soothing gut punch. Somebody once called it a soothing gut punch to like, wake people up,
Chris Rainey 4:51
don't, don't name your book that the soothing gut punch? Yeah, what made you come to the. Realization is something that you experienced personally, that you kind of unlocked and said, Wow, you know, I was holding myself back for so long, like, what was the aha moment that you were like, This is what I need to this is my why. You know,
Rachel Druckenmiller 5:13
well, for me, I'd say a big catalyst was when I burned out. So when I was, I was the director of well being in my company. A year earlier, I had been recognized by this organization called the wellness Council of America well CoA, as the number one health promotion professional in the United States. So there were 250 some people that were, you know, part of this group, and I ended up winning this whole contest. And I felt like, Oh, this is the coolest, best thing that could have happened, because now I'm, you know, they said I'm the best at what I do. And then a year later, I was sick on my couch and burned out with Epstein Barr Virus, which is an acute form of mono, and I lost my voice for a period of time. I had no energy. I would sleep for 12 hours a night, not feel rested. I was I was terrified to tell anybody, because I was the wellness person. And I'm like, the wellness person can't be the sickest person at the company.
Chris Rainey 6:00
Yeah. And it's, you know, we do a global well being summit every year, and I speak to benefits leaders every year, and some of them are the ones that are most burned out of the most HR, because you're dealing you hate you, because you're dealing with everyone else is, you know, and your own. There's a lot, it's a lot right to take on, and you're right. Who do you go to when you have a problem? Who does HR or well being go to when they have an issue? There's, they're supposed to be the people that people go to, right? So, yeah, it's something that people don't talk about enough, and they do, hold it, hold it. Hold it to them. Keep it, keep it to themselves. Yeah. Well,
Rachel Druckenmiller 6:38
I think the other problem with HR, like, with that, I see an HR and a problem with HR. But what I see in all the HR leaders I've worked with and talked to is that we just go to, like, where the tactical solutions, like, how can we prevent burnout? Make sure you're getting enough sleep. Make sure. Like, duh, nobody needs to be told that. Again, what I discovered through my own experience, through my own journey of burnout, and kind of coming out of that, and really having a honestly this, this dark night of the soul, truly was the recognition that burnout, I believe, is often rooted deeply in a in a lack of self worth.
Chris Rainey 7:13
Interesting that if we just prove
Rachel Druckenmiller 7:15
ourselves enough, if we just impress enough people, if we just help enough people, if we're useful enough, then, then we'll feel okay, then we'll feel successful. And the truth is, as long as we're trying to do that, right,
Chris Rainey 7:30
I am that, yeah, I mean, I grew up pretty poor, didn't have much, so I kind of had this, like, chip on my shoulder that I have to prove to my family, friends, my wife, I am enough. I can be enough. And I was always chasing the next pay rise, the next deal, the next promotion, and whenever I achieved each of those things, I was still miserable. And I'm like, why am I miserable? Like I and I was having anxiety attacks, and I definitely had burnout. And you're right, a lot of that was in the chase of approval and recognition beyond myself, which is, which is so unhealthy, because it's never ending to do that. And then when I kind of shifted my purpose to creating a better life for Robin, my daughter and my wife and and putting myself first, my own, me before everyone. In order for me to be the best dad, the best husband, the best friend, I have to take care of Chris, yes, then I can take care of everyone else and be the best version of myself. But I learned that the hard way, like you by and it came in the form of panic attacks, anxiety, severe anxiety, wasn't sleeping, wasn't taking care of myself, and it just came to a halt where I was like, I can't do this anymore as well. But you're right. It's interesting in perspective,
Rachel Druckenmiller 8:54
yeah. And I think it affects a lot of people, and people don't talk about it, and nobody talks about what's at the root of it. You know, for me, I went through this process. It's a really great book called really great book called Immunity to Change, and it's by to Lisa Leahy and Bob Keegan out of Harvard University. And I went through a process with a coach, right in the wake of that burnout. And we had to get, you know, we walked through a series of questions. And, you know, what are the ways you're holding yourself back? What's this, you know, how are you getting in your own way? How you're sabotaging yourself. And then beneath all of it was what they call the big assumption. There's a big assumption that's at the root of why we're not doing the things we say we want to do. And when we were getting at the core kind of the statement of what my big assumption was, it was basically that that I believe that if I have to be impressive and have to be the best, and if I'm not, then I'm then I'm nobody, like, I'm nobody, I'm nothing, and and who and who would love a nobody.
Chris Rainey 9:54
Yeah, but, and also your so many people's jobs and professions, AI, are you? Are ingrained in their self worth. So you see it. Let me give example. You know, you see like athletes retire, right or or actors retire, they, many of them have issues mental health, alcohol, drugs, because their whole life is represented in being this. I am a professional ex sports athlete, and then everything their self worked is wrapped up in that. And then when they retire, they're like, they can't deal with it, right? They know what to do. You see that happen all the time. So now I've just kind of got to the point where I'm like, I've separated that out, and I am me, and I'm not defined by a job title. I'm not defined by how much money I make or what car I drive, or that that's not my measurement of success anymore. And my I went for a similar process with my coach, chest Elton, and one of the realizations for me was just like there was like an inner child of voice, of just being scared of being poor again, because I grew up very poor, so I had this fear that it's all going to fall apart at some point, you know, I'm going to be poor again. And so, like, no matter how much money I was making or progressing, I couldn't get rid of that fear. And I didn't even know that I was even doing that, obviously, at the time, but as well. So I was trying to, like, I'm just and I still have it now, I'll be honest. Yeah, no matter how successful we get, my wife's always like, enough is never going to be enough for you. But what I have done is created boundaries and and, you know, there's a couple of hours walked every evening where I just spent time with my daughter, you know, not you can't books yet. You can't book calls during that time, right? There's a cup, there's an hour. I even schedule lunch, because otherwise I used to just not eat and work the entire day. Like, that's how unhealthy it was. I schedule gym, right? Like, just, just schedule everything. Because if I leave it up to my, to my subconscious mind, it's not happening. It's not, it's not happening. Well,
Rachel Druckenmiller 12:03
I can give you a question that would, I think, be helpful for everyone listening, that I use as kind of like a filter for bound, because you mentioned setting boundaries, which is one of the things that, from what I've heard from HR leaders, because I speak a lot at events that HR leaders come to, and I ask them, you know, what are the ways you're holding yourself back, and how are you muting yourself? And one of them is around boundary setting. So one of my favorite questions to ask people to ask themselves when you're trying to make a decision about what to prioritize is, if I say yes to this, what am I saying no to that matters to me and to those I care about.
Chris Rainey 12:38
Yeah, I love that one.
Rachel Druckenmiller 12:42
It's a filter, right? It's like, be honest with yourself. I mean, I've not gone to networking events. I've not gone to certain things because I've said, I say yes to this. There's the, here's the chain of consequences that happen if I say yes, if I say yes to that project, when I'm already drowning, what am I saying no to sleep, sanity, being nice to people. You know, we have to ask ourselves, we have to take responsibility for the for the yeses that we have. And for a long time, I didn't. I was like, my job's doing this to me. They're putting all this pressure on me, and they have these expectations that are unreasonable. Have you ever spoken up about that, Rachel? And the truth was that I had not. I
Chris Rainey 13:18
think one of the biggest lessons I learned not long, probably the last couple years, is to learn to say no more often. I think we're so we want to please people. We want to try and be the hero. But you at what cost to your point, right? You know, like even today, I had a really important call come across a email that and someone wanted to speak this evening, and it's a lot of money online. And I was like, You know what? I can wait until tomorrow. I'm going trick or treating tonight with my daughter. And that's literally the conversation I had with Lisa my AI. I was like, no. She was like, What is this? Is this part? It's just incredible opportunity. I'm, like, in a past I'd have, like, just dropped like, no one more day is fine. You can wait a day. You know, I want to go trick or treating with Robin, because I promised her this morning, when I left the house I would be home. And she asked me, Can you come? I'm going to be there, whereas in the past, I would have not made that decision to do that as well. So it's it's okay to say no, yes. So what is self what is self silencing? And why do we do it?
Rachel Druckenmiller 14:31
So I learned about this from there's a psychology professor named Dana Jack. And so when we self silence, we don't speak up and express what we think or want or need or feel. And a lot of us, we do this for the one of the main reasons is because of fear. So we have a fear of failure, judgment, rejection, not being good enough, being seen as inadequate or incompetent, a fear of rocking the boat, a fear of causing conflict, a fear of confrontation. And because of all of those fears, we just. You know what? It's just safer to be quiet than to take the risk of putting myself out there and having any one of those things happen. So I'm just going to sit here and silently be resentful, burned out, overwhelmed and frustrated and unfulfilled and full of regret, because I'm letting this fear lead the way. And so I think one of the reasons, especially in HR, why we do this is because, when you think about it, people get into HR because they like helping other people. So I like to help other people and train other people and grow other people and help the organization be better. And I think a lot of times it's like we forget that well, as an HR leader at an organization, you're also one of the employees, and so you also should benefit from all of the things that you are doing, and not just be the person that's advocating for everybody else, but to turn those skills on yourself and advocate for yourself as much as you're advocating for others. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 15:55
from a practical point of view, how do we start to turn turn a corner on that. What are some things that people can do to recognize when they're in that moment, when in those moments, or and create a system to because I'm assuming this is something that is an ongoing development, like we, like I just said, I always have that fear it's not going to go away. The voice comes back. What's your advice?
Rachel Druckenmiller 16:21
Yeah. So, I mean, I'm always, I'm really big on curiosity. I think curiosity is one of the most important traits of any leader, and so I think we don't often have enough curiosity about ourselves. So I would start by inviting them to ask themselves a few questions, initially, to, like, make this personal for them. So one would be that question of, What's one way that you are currently silencing, doubting or holding yourself back that you'd like to overcome. So to own that, just pick one, because you could pick 50, and you won't do any of them. So what's what's the one that is the greatest pain point for you, possibly, or even, what's the one that feels the easiest for you, like you could some people like to do the hardest thing, and some people like to build momentum by doing something they feel like they can have success in. So what's one way you're doing that? What is the cost of that? So if you continue to do that, let's drag this out a year, three three years, five years. If you continue to silence or hold yourself back or mute yourself in that way, or doubt yourself in that way, what is the cost? What are the negative consequences that are going to happen if you continue
Chris Rainey 17:14
to do that? Example of that? Give me an example of what that would look like. Sure.
Rachel Druckenmiller 17:18
So if I am silencing myself. I'm not asking for what I'm worth. All right, what are the costs of that? So there's, like, a literal financial cost of I'm not able to live the life that I want to live because I don't have the financial resources I want to live. I start to build resentment. Because often in HR, for instance, if you're working in recruiting, you're seeing other people's salaries, and you can become more resentful because you're like, well, this, this person's getting paid that, and I'm getting paid this. And then there can be that resentment that builds, and when people show up, when people have resentment that they're carrying inside because they're silencing a deep need that they have, that they're afraid to communicate, that often comes out in our interactions with other people in negative ways. And then, frankly, I mean, I can I give you a specific example of something that happened with an HR leader in recruiter, HR leader in recruiting, of the way she right? She's unmuted herself. So I spoke at the National Sherm conference. This was two years ago, and a woman reached out to me afterwards and said that she had worked in she took a pay cut to work in recruiting in the insurance industry, from whatever she had been doing before, and something that I shared with them, I gave them a script that they could use to ask for a comp adjustment, and I said, You're not asking for a raise. I've learned this from my dad, who used to teach he's taught some negotiating. So I learned it from him, and I used it in my corporate job. So here's the prompt, instead of going to your boss and asking for a raise, you say, schedule time, meet with them and say, I would like to talk about how we can adjust my compensation to better reflect my increased value and contributions. I would like to be at x, number by y. Date. Is that possible here? And then you stop talking, and you sit on your hands and you bite your tongue, and you don't over explain it, and you don't oversell it, and you just wait to see what they say, because whatever they say, that's helpful information. If they say, No, that's not possible here, all right, well, maybe I need to go somewhere where we have a value alignment. Or if they say that's possible here, here's what needs to happen now you have a path forward, as opposed to sitting there and being resentful. So she left that conference. This was in June of 2023 she emailed her boss within four to six weeks because she said, I realize, because they only do annual pay bumps, like they have a bands, right? And so she would have had to wait till March to get a bump, but she realized, she said, I'm already doing all of the things that are part of that next band. And she was just going to wait and sit on it, but instead, she emailed her boss with the subject line, job grade consideration request, and she just copied and pasted the wording that I gave her and just filled in the blanks, and she said, based on what I've seen, you know, I'm already fulfilling the requirements at this next level. And. And before she sent it to her boss, she sent it to a friend of hers who worked in HR, and she was like, Is this too harsh? I've never been so direct. Like, I've never been I'm so afraid of being this direct. I want to be considered
Chris Rainey 20:12
that's perfect self silencing, right? Perfect example, right? Of people just, yeah, wow, just
Rachel Druckenmiller 20:18
not doing and then her boss wrote her back within two weeks, her boss wrote her back, and she got, she got the pay bump within two weeks that she was gonna have to wait seven months for, which was several $1,000 more. And she was like, yeah. She was like, so this is I didn't even know I could do this. I didn't know I was the kind of she said, I've never asked for a comp adjustment in my career. I didn't know I was the kind of person that could do this, and it really wasn't that hard. And
Chris Rainey 20:40
the thing is, the worst case scenario. But again, it goes back to your point earlier. The worst case scenario is they say no, but then you have that fear of rejection, and that fear of, you know, which comes back again, like, Oh, what if I ask, and they say no, right? And then people just don't take the opportunity. I had a similar experience when I was just in got into sales. I was like 2223 and I was doing about four times the sales of the average sales person. And I felt really annoyed that I knew I was getting paid the same. And I remember going into my I didn't do it so well, like you, by the way. I literally went in and said, Hey, I'm doing four times once, I always send the team. I want more money. It was definitely not a great strategy. But I got it. I got what. I got the pay rise that I asked for and but I was told next time, don't come in like this, Chris. And got some good got some very well received feedback about how you do that. But I think being in sales where you're used to getting rejected every day, and you hear no, right? And you kind of have to separate your emotions and you know they're not saying no to me. Chris Rainey, personally, you kind of build a bit of resilience around, like, jumping into the deep end and just trying, like when I launched this show, everyone's like you like, you're a salesperson. Now you're launching a podcast about HR. You've never, ever done a day ever in HR, and now you're the guy that interviews the top people in HR, right? Who are you to think that you can do that? And I just kind of got to the point in my in my life, where I'm like, I just don't care about other people's opinions. To your point or, like, I don't I'm not waiting for someone to give me permission. Yeah, you know, yeah, I'm not tired. I was tired I was in this I think that's because I was in the same job for 10 years, and I was staring at my boss, like, are you gonna promote me? Are you ever gonna leave? Or, you know, and I'm like, Is your boss ever gonna leave so you can move up? And then I like, try to move in other parts of the company. I was told no. And I was like, I am tired of waiting for someone else to give me permission to succeed and grow and develop, you know. And I was just like, it took 10 years, though, to get to that point, but you did it
Rachel Druckenmiller 22:57
like you took initiative. I think that the other thing is taking initiative, because so often people are waiting for permission. They're like, I need to be asked to do this. And I think there's two things for us to consider when it comes to unmuting ourselves and taking initiative. I think one is to think about there's three questions I've had people think about for themselves, of, where do I want to go? So when you think about your future, like, what do you want to be doing? Who do you want to be doing it with? What do you want your day to look like that? So where do you want to go? Kind of title do you aspire to? If that's a thing you know, how do you need to grow to get there? So what are the trainings or certifications or coaching or mentoring or experience that you need to be able to grow into where you want to go? And then, who do you need to know? So who are the people that you need to connect with that are maybe already doing the thing you want to be doing, or that insight on how to do that, and how can you take intentional steps to connect with them, so that you're not waiting around for somebody else to direct your career, but that you're you're clear on where people are clear on where they want to go, are more likely to get there than people that are sitting around waiting for direction from
Chris Rainey 23:57
someone else. Yeah, no, I love that. I think the second one, I want to give, like, a bit of a warning to people, because I see this all the time. You don't have to wait until you have a business plan or a certification or a diploma to get like, I just started an AI company, and I'm a CEO and founder of a founder of an AI business. I've never done anything like that in my life, right? And too many people, if you look at the people that are successful in especially entrepreneurs, they jump out there the airplane and build the parachute on the way down. You learn that's whereas, whereas so many people I speak to, they feel like, Oh, I'm not ready yet your net. The truth is, nobody knows what they're doing. No, the difference is they just get started and start doing and learn a long way while you think about it, or have the perfect business plan written out, and you're all of these, you know, courses and stuff that you have to go on. Yes, you need to do that, but you need to be doing it at the same time. Do. Just get started this and then again, again. Comes back to that fear I can't do it well, cause you can't do it. You've never done it. Put your reps in, like, the amount of times that we've I don't, you know, we did 150 episodes of the podcast before a single person listened. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, months and months of editing and recording and shows and no one was listening. Just demoralizing, right? But I learned a lot every day. I got better at interviewing, editing, building the audience, finding the right guests, like you, just if I waited until I had the perfect plan, it never would have happened.
Rachel Druckenmiller 25:35
It wouldn't. And there's something energizing about doing it without the full plan, because, well, HR, think about it, sometimes you're in HR, you're at risk averse, because you're the you're the regulator, you're the rule upholder, you're the one that's you know, if you think about it, you're you deal with compliance. You know so much about HR is follow the rules, stay in the box, don't take a risk. So I think one of the hard things is people that are really good at doing the the technical, logistical aspects of HR are not necessarily wired to be risk takers, because it's potentially threatening in some way to them being good at the other thing. But I do think they can. I think they can co exist. I think it's a matter of asking yourself what might be possible, like, what becomes possible if I say yes to this thing before I feel ready? And to recognize that, like with imposter syndrome, a lot of people, a lot of HR leaders, have said, I feel like I'm imposter. I'm a fraud. I like to tell people that kind of, what you the story you just shared. Everyone does. Everyone does, but like you're not an imposter. I like to say, You're not an imposter. You're in process.
Chris Rainey 26:40
Yeah, I love that. That's, that's, I kind of like, have the whole sort of act as if, like, I act as if I'm already a very successful CEO of a AI startup, and I embody every part of that. And I'm learning on the way, right, like about I already envision, picture affirmations. Everything in me is like this is already imagining like I even, like, sit awake at night. It's pretty sad to see on the podcast and imagine what it looks like, the success, the where I'm going, the journey, the failures. And fully visualize that for myself and the team and the business, and you kind of have to, because otherwise, the alternative is you're going to sit there thinking about all the things are going to go wrong and and what people are going to think about you if you fail, and all of those, am I enough? Yeah, you know, like it's, that's, that's the alternative, of, of, of doing that. And by the way, for everyone, it is going to be hard. You are going to fail. There's going to be days you don't want to get up and do this stuff. That's part of the process. Yeah, but you have to
Rachel Druckenmiller 27:58
let yourself imagine, I mean, like one of the, one of my favorite authors is Daniel Pink, yeah, yeah, right. So you wrote a book called The Power of regret a couple years ago that I just absolutely loved, and they did research. They've now surveyed over 26,000 people across 134 countries, and they found that the one of the top four regrets that people have in their lives, this is directly related to this conversation, are what they call boldness regrets. So if only I'd taken the chance, if only I'd started that business, if only I'd said yes, if only I'd put myself out there, if only I'd bet on myself, if only I believed in myself, if only I asked for that raise, like, stop having if it is your choice to have, if only regrets,
Chris Rainey 28:36
yeah, like you gotta flip the lens of what is the cost of not doing it. That's why I always look at things now, whereas, like in the beginning of my career, I was like, oh, what's the cost of doing it, you know? And then you kind of neg, neg, it out. Like, probably, yeah, or you find all the reason you'll convince yourself, all the reasons why you shouldn't, right. Even when I started the company, every single person i I told, and I think I would never have told them, actually, going back, told me every reason why I shouldn't do it. Oh, Chris, you know that only one in 100 startups succeed, right? Yeah. Oh, Chris, you know, you know. And I had all of those, and I was like, but what if I do? And also, what if I don't right? What's the opportunity cost of me just staying in the company? And I had a conversation my wife one time in the kitchen, like, literally just, like, making dinner. And she was like, I don't want you to like, she's like, I know it's going to be hard on our family. We're going to have to make financial sacrifices. You know, we just bought a house with a baby on the way, there's, there's no good time of doing it. She's like, let's just do it. We'll figure it out. Because I don't, I don't want you to look back and be like, you didn't do it right? And then it was in that moment, I was like, let's do it. Yeah, right, yeah. And we had to make sacrifice. We had to take actually, and sometimes you have to take a couple steps back to take a couple steps forward. That's another thing a lot of people aren't willing to make. I went from a couple 100k salary to 30k yeah, that is in London, almost you can't even live on that. Shane and I, so within the first three months, we had to make money. Otherwise we had to go and get a job again. So we we had no choice. Yes, literally, when you have got no choice in the backs against the wall, you'd be amazed at what you can do, because you just have no choice. You have to but to do it. So but I understand it's not as always clean and cut in that, you know, people have mortgages their families. You know, we call it sort of the golden handcuffs in companies, right? And it's really hard to do that. So let's not pretend that that doesn't exist, because that's that's really tough, and
Rachel Druckenmiller 30:44
I think even but I think something to think about, though, is even if you're in a role where you feel that you're like, I'm not in a position where I can leave right now, because I would imagine many people listening might feel that, yeah, what is the aspect of your work that makes you feel most alive? And how can you do more of that thing you don't have to. Doesn't have to be. The only solution is leave it could be. The solution is you speak up. There was a woman a project manager. I was doing some work with a global consulting firm A few years ago, and I spoke to their managers, and a woman reached out to me afterwards, who had been in the room, and she said there was a question you asked us during the session that I brought back and talked to my partner about. She said, I'm a single mom. I had to travel for work back and forth, and it's exhausting. But she said this question you asked me prompted me to have a conversation with my boss that I really needed to have, because I've been feeling like really exhausted. And the question was, who gets the best of you and who gets the rest of
Chris Rainey 31:40
you? And I love that, by the way, that's great. Well, you're,
Rachel Druckenmiller 31:42
I feel like you're living it out by even the example you shared about trick or treat is
Chris Rainey 31:46
that, is that you, is that an original? That you need to figure that out, because that is a really good I love that. If that's, if that's a you quote, right there, you need to put that on LinkedIn with, like, a picture of you with a quote. You know, everyone does, right? That's, I love that. That is such a great way of putting it.
Rachel Druckenmiller 32:05
Well, you know, I there's a guy named Simon Bailey who is somebody that I had learned from a few years ago was another speaker, and he was sharing a story about how his he ended up getting divorced because he had prioritized his career. So much happens. Yeah, you know, didn't like the kind of person that he was and how he was showing up, and so he framed it as you know, my my daughter got the or my family got the rest of me instead of the best of me. So he framed it that way, and then I flipped it into a question. So it's who gets, who gets, who gets the best of you and who gets the rest of you, because it's when we ask ourselves that it's different to hear it as a question than as a statement. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 32:47
one of the makes it personal, yeah, one of the hardest things that I got, that that was said to me, was by Chester, my coach, and I was talking about, you know, I have to do this because of the company, and I couldn't do that because of the company. I was making all these excuses, right? And he looked at me dead straight in my eyes and said to me, I can't really exact quote, but it was along the lines of no amount of success in business makes up a failure in your home. And it just was just silence, right? That was it, right? No amount of success in business makes up a failure at home. Yeah, then that really hit a court struck a chord with me, and I was like, Wow, I'm making all of these excuses of the reason I'm doing it for my family, but I'm they're not spending time with my family, right? I'm doing this to make the lives of Natasha and I better accept, but what's, what's the point if I'm not actually present to enjoy it, right? Yeah, so I was using it as the excuse, and it was just, like, a hard moment, right? To, like, go, okay, so yeah, I'll never forget that. That was hard to hear, but I needed to. I really, I really needed to hear that in the moment
Rachel Druckenmiller 34:03
and admit that, you know, yeah,
Chris Rainey 34:07
who was I kidding? Exactly. A lot of us have these excuses of why we do these things, but, you know, are you really doing it? Is it? Yeah, because I definitely don't want them to get the rest of me. I want them to get the best of me, you know, because that's why I'm doing it. That's my why and why I'm doing it in the first place as well. Is this something that you see people have at all stages in their career, or is it more so in the later? Is like later in the career? Or is it just really like abroad, like
Rachel Druckenmiller 34:41
it's across the board. I mean, I think we make the assumption that, Oh, someone later in their career, they must not doubt themselves anymore. That person seems confident they've been a chro for 15 years. I mean, I remember at 1.1 of the companies I was working with talking to. Somebody who was a VP, and I remember when she opened up to me and she said, Rachel, she's like, I didn't go to college. And I am afraid that every day, someone's looking over my shoulder trying to find something I did wrong, to realize that I do not belong in this spot and that they're going to kick me out. She's like, every day I'm just waiting for someone to basically realize that I don't belong here, that I'm a fraud, that an imposter, because, because I didn't go to college, and everyone has their own version of that, because I didn't go to college, because I don't have this credential, because I don't know this person, because I haven't worked at a prestigious company, because I'm not making X amount of money. We have all of these reasons, yeah, that we tell ourselves are the, you know, that we that we allow, basically, to hold us back, and other people aren't thinking about those things the way that we think they are. They're just not.
Chris Rainey 35:50
Yeah, no one cares. Like, is that? And that's, that's the sort of, uh, that's actually one of the like break for moments of me was like, no one actually gives a shit or sorry to swear that, and cares about that and is focusing on that, you are right. It's why kind of you see like this sort of keeping up appearances nature on social media, like everyone feels like they need to show the best version of themselves on link, on on LinkedIn and on Instagram and shows like The glossy front version, don't kid yourself. No one cares. No one cares, but you So, and that's why I kind of realized as well, no one cares, like no one's if you think people are paying that close attention to you and what you're doing and everything, you kind of like, you know, I was the same, by the way, like I didn't go to school, so I don't know, have any form of education. I'm dyslexic. I hid that all. Shane, even now, my co founder still helps me write contracts. This is something I'm like, you know, this is not a strong point for me. Help me structure this, write the contract. We literally just did one before this call as well. But now I kind of lean into it. It's not my strength. So like ask me to be creative and sell and do other things and build product that's that's kind of where I accelerate, right? And we did a similar thing you mentioned earlier, by the way, we couple years into the company, we were just exhausted, and we sat down and wrote a list of all the things that give us energy and all the things that take away energy that we do as founders, and we realized that all so many the things that was taking away his energy, I was like, I love that, and vice versa. And I was like, why are we doing, why are we doing all of these things right? And even with travel, like, there's a point where I said, Hey, like, I have a daughter now, yeah, you know, I want to be a bit more present. So, like, I'm not gonna, I don't want to travel as much as I used to. And we actually shuffled the business to accommodate for that as well. And when we did that, we like, four, 5x star revenue, because all of a sudden I was running in one direction in sales, marketing, creative, and I'm like, just full of energy doing that, being on camera. Shane used to also be on camera back in the day, and he hated it. He didn't enjoy selling. He didn't enjoy any of the things that I love, basically, and he wants to be the behind the foundation of the company, operations, finance, you know, making sure that basically taking my crazy ideas and bringing them to life, whereas we had a mix of all of that, and it was just a mess before. It took us three years to have that. What, like, that's one simple conversation. And what you know, do you know what we realized we didn't want to tell each other, because he was worried about what each other would think. To your point, so How silly is that? Yeah, it's
Rachel Druckenmiller 38:46
like, I don't want to rock what if. What if? What if this? What are they going to think of me? And again, worst case scenario. So what is the worst case scenario of what they can think of you? And then you would have to then deal with that, but it's better than both of you harboring these fears
Chris Rainey 39:01
independent for help. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. And we're like, best friends. Co founders know each other forever, even then we're like, I don't want Creek think I don't want Shane to feel less see me as less than or, you know, vice versa as well. So I encourage anyone listening right now, have that conversation with your team. Like, even simple one is sitting down to your point, like, what are the things that give you well, how did you put it? I had to say, what gives you energy? What takes away energy? You put it a lot better earlier. Oh,
Rachel Druckenmiller 39:27
yeah. I mean, what is something that makes you feel alive? Like, what is about your work? But we, for our my former company, we actually had language around this, and I did this when I was in my mid 20s. It was borrowed from other people, but I forget who the source is. But the question was, what are your energy vampires? So what are the things that stuck the life out of you?
Chris Rainey 39:42
I love that. Out of you? I love that because you put a good branding behind it. People will remember it. That's great. Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Druckenmiller 39:47
Like, what are your energy vampires? And then they didn't have a more creative name for this. But what are your like? What are your highest payoff activities? They call them. But what are the things that you do that that uniquely contribute, that bring value to others, that you all. So enjoy doing and so, I mean, I started making those lists in my mid 20s, and I would go to my boss, who was a CF, yeah, I'm glad I did well. I needed to, especially after I burned out. I was like so this needs to come off my plate. And again, we're afraid they'll say no. But even if they say no, that gives you really good information to know what to do next, whether you can stay there, or whether you should look for something somewhere else
Chris Rainey 40:22
where can like this is all well and good at saying this. But where do people find the courage, the strength to then do that? Because in doing so, you open up the vulnerability, right? Sure, the scary, the scary, all those things, so all of a sudden, now you're there, right? How do people get to that point? Yeah, well, I
Rachel Druckenmiller 40:48
think a couple things. There's some, there's again, questions power of curiosity that they can ask themselves and the people in their life to give them more insight into what they do. Well, because a lot of times, okay, when we lack confidence ourselves, we need to let other people be a mirror for us, because I like to say that we are blind to our own brilliance, and so we don't often, necessarily see the things that are best in us that other people might see right away, because we're just natural. I just do that. I don't that's not a thing. So there was, there were two questions I was meeting with, actually an HR leader a couple of years ago, and she was going through a coaching program, and there were two questions she asked me. We sat down outside of a Starbucks, and she said, I want you to make a list of like, eight to 10 people, and I want you to ask them these two questions, what shows up when I do? What qualities do I bring into a
Chris Rainey 41:31
room? Oh, I love the I'm gonna love both of them, but the first one, what shows up when I do? Yeah, what
Rachel Druckenmiller 41:40
shows and you couldn't, I couldn't explain it. So I could. She's like, you do not over explain it. You just say, I have a question of two questions for you, what shows up when I do? And I was terrified, Chris, because I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, I don't know. I show up as an anxious, overbearing, perfectionistic, bossy, you know, I had in my mind. You
Chris Rainey 41:55
went straight to the negative. I love it like. I love when we default straight to like,
Rachel Druckenmiller 42:02
like, these are the things I hope people don't fit my insecurities, whatever. And and I asked like, 18 people those questions, and I tallied all their responses. And this happened a year after I burned out, so I was at this place of recalibrating my identity, frankly, and the kind of things that people said were the kind of things I like in the deepest part of myself. Hoped people saw and hoped they might say, but didn't imagine they would. So they said, like, you bring a calming presence and an excited energy. You know you're comforting, disarming, um, authentic, genuine, real, funny, you know, like you make me feel like I can do it. Some people gave phrases, and I'm reading these things over and over and over again, and our tendency is to push it away. Our tendency is somebody says something affirming about us, and for whatever reason, past trauma, things other people have told us about ourselves, our tendency is immediately to put up a wall and to find all the reasons why whatever they said is not true. Yeah, like we said earlier, yeah, right. It's like, how do I counter? Well, here's why I'm not that thing you said I am. Oh, here's why I'm not. Human
Chris Rainey 43:10
beings are we are taking compliments or positives. This isn't weird. I love to understand the psychology behind that a little bit more. Yeah, yeah. I
Rachel Druckenmiller 43:18
mean, well, I think part of it is we're told from the time we're little, don't toot your own horn, let your work speak for itself. And so that gets ingrained in us from the time we're little, and we're told that, you know,
Chris Rainey 43:29
now, I think there's, like, it's kind of almost been branded as arrogance, but there's a very difference between arrogance and confidence and belief in yourself. And I've had friends and family say to me in the past, like, oh, you come I've come across that way. I'm like, No, I just I, I don't. I'm not accepting anything like the sort of, and people have heard me talk about some show before, the sort of conforming to the status quo and sort of being a victim of the circumstances that I was born into, right, or grew up in, I'm like, No, I'm not. And I've all people, oh, and I've always had that from even friends, even like my family have said that. And I'm like, I don't, yep, I refuse to let that play a part. You know? I can, all I can do is control the controllables, all everything outside of that I'm not that doesn't affect me. Like, you know, it just control my controllables, you know, if it's out of my control, then forget about it. Just, like, don't get upset about it. But, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you see again, you see it with, like, again, highly successful people or athletes. They are very old, always very arrogant. No, they're not they. It's just that's, that's the the winning mindset they have to have. If you walk into a, I watch MMA, if you walk into an MMA fight, thinking you're going to lose. Is very unlikely you're gonna win. Honestly, you have to go into it even sometimes, when you sometimes when I, like, deep down, don't even believe it, I still kind of like defamations, you know, put it out there, project it into the universe, and going with the assumption, because what's the alternative of that? You know, yeah,
Rachel Druckenmiller 45:24
it's very true, and we're afraid. I mean, one of my favorite phrases that I heard, Adam Grant's another favorite author of mine. And like, what you just said, like, arrogance, confidence. He talks about, I love the way he frames it. He calls it confident, humility.
Chris Rainey 45:36
Oh, great, of course, he, of course, he has an amazing way of saying it. That's why I'm not Adam Grant. Confidence, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what
Rachel Druckenmiller 45:44
it is. You know, you have self assurance. And what you do well because you've taken the time to ask or you've asked people like, another question people can ask people around them is Tell me about a time when you've seen me at my best, like, what showed up? A time you saw me at my best? What showed up? Document their responses. Make a list. Write a new narrative, say when I show up at my best, in the words of other people, this is how I show up. And start to I think we can start to internalize these things, but we have to make the choice to start asking, because so much of the vulnerability that you mentioned is very vulnerable. The thing I believe, I think the thing that fundamentally gives us courage is a sense of our own worthiness. And a lot of people have grown up a lot of things from childhood, things we've talked about a little bit, yeah, today, that that have affected that have caused people to not feel worthy. Yeah. And some people have been through some really, really painful, awful things that have led them to believe that they are not they're not worthy of these things. They're not enough. And, I mean, that's why, I think taking this time to really let the people around you speak life over you. I mean, that's really what this is, the people that know you, people that you trust and respect, to allow them to say, this is what I see in you, like this is, this is what I see in you. That when you're at your best, you do this, you do this, you do that, and as you start I mean, I, I was recalibrating my whole identity, to be honest with you, when I was in the wake of this burnout, asking these questions, talking to these coaches, going through these processes, and I started to shift. I was like, Oh, what if it's true?
Chris Rainey 47:11
What if these things, they've all been there, what if
Rachel Druckenmiller 47:14
what they're saying is true? How? How would I show up differently in my life? If I actually believed that the kind of person that they see is who I actually am. You can retrain
Chris Rainey 47:23
that, right? And that's something I learned because I had all those negative beliefs, and it's ingrained in your subconscious mind, right? It's something you learn as a child, right? And through affirmations, for example, one of the things I did and do now and again, I used to do it a lot before, is have like audio books with positive affirmations about what I'm achieving, because it's kind of in it's in the in the tents that it's already happened. And I made like, an audio playlist where I just play it the whole eight hours that I'm asleep. So it's just in my ear, my headphones, and I wake up just super energized. And my subconscious mind, whilst you're asleep, it goes into, I think it's like alpha to be air. Can't remember, I can't remember the technical science behind it right now. But when you're asleep, your conscious mind is still awake, so you can program it with positive affirmations. I used to just listen to these things on repeat, like, even on the way to work, like on the train, like obsessed. And then every morning I would say them in the mirror as well. And then, because your your psychologist mind doesn't know the difference between reality, the real and reality. So if you say, I'm scared, you will feel scared, right? If you say and for a positive point of view, something like that, then you also can internalize that feeding as well. So it's something that I practice a lot, and be very thought aware of my thoughts, because you can literally make yourself sick, literally, as we know right by by constantly beating yourself up, talk, talking negative thoughts, putting yourself down, and, yeah, I think affirmations you can see, like playlists on YouTube, like six hour playlists of just like, of course. And it may sound silly, but honestly, it's an absolute game changer for me to have that. And I refuse to this is a bit extreme, but I even refused to have certain friends around me that were very negative.
Rachel Druckenmiller 49:24
That's not extreme, like, I
Chris Rainey 49:26
mean, but to them it was right, like, I mean, and to even family members, I was like, I'm not. I'm not the guy you call every single day or week to complain about the world. Yeah. Like, that's not I can't do that. I need to be focused on this, and that meant letting go of a certain community of people around me to be like I need to go here and then surround myself with other people that are on a mission, have a sense of purpose and that are aligned with what I want to achieve as well. And I see that with HR, executive. Some of the most, the most successful CHROs I tweet to on this show, have amazing networks of group of peers around them that they tap into. They keep them going through the hard times, personally, professionally, and they they and they have a support systems that they've built around them as well. They understand when they're in sprints and it's going to be a hard few months. They're conscious of it. They make adjustments, personally freshly. To do that as well. It's you have to do that, otherwise you will burn out
Rachel Druckenmiller 50:32
100% been there, yeah, been there. Been there, done that. Don't want to go back,
Chris Rainey 50:35
yeah. So what's our message to everyone before we leave? Well, firstly, you are enough. Wherever you are in the world, you are enough. I want to say that. Say it out loud, I am enough, right? But apart from that, what would be your parting piece of advice to everyone listening?
Rachel Druckenmiller 50:54
The thing that I would say is that, look, you've got one shot here. You've got one shot here, and if you are holding yourself back and you are muting yourself and you are letting doubt dictate what you do, you are going to end up living a life for somebody else and not for yourself, and you are worthy of living the kind of life that excites you, you're worthy of living the kind of life that fulfills you. You're worthy of living the kind of life that makes you feel alive, and you first and foremost. And I'll say this because this I wrote a song about my first song is called somebody, and the song ends with the words, you are somebody. You matter. You are enough. And I, I think, for each person here, even just right now as they're wrapping up this conversation. I often do this in rooms. I was just in a room earlier this week, about 1000 people, and I had everyone put a hand on their heart, and I said, I want you to repeat after me, and I want you to think about the most insecure, unworthy version of yourself, and I want you to speak these words to that person. I want you to say, I am somebody I matter, and I am enough. I'm going to keep saying it. We just see what that feels like to say that. Notice where you're resisting saying that, and to think about what would it look like, would it feel like in your body, if you could say those words and actually believe them, and how would you show up differently in your life, if you actually believed that you were somebody who mattered and that you were enough, it's a game changer.
Chris Rainey 52:33
Love it. Well, listen, I appreciate you coming on the show for everyone listening. Make sure you connect Rachel on LinkedIn. Where can I check out? Is it on the website? The music? By the way, that's
Rachel Druckenmiller 52:43
like, yeah, music, wherever you stream music, so Spotify, Pandora, Apple Music, iTunes, name Rachel druckenmill, yeah, yeah. That's wherever you're
Chris Rainey 52:51
listening or watching right now, I'm gonna link all those links below, so where there's no excuse go check out the music. Connect Rachel on LinkedIn. So I'm gonna listen after I didn't even know, you know what I should do. I'm gonna have, if I don't necessarily get copyright strike by you when I do the introduction of the podcast and share the clip is, have your music in the background. Love it. That sounds as the background music. That'd be cool.
Rachel Druckenmiller 53:17
Yeah, that sounds great. I'm happy, happy I'm happy. Permission granted. Okay, great.
Chris Rainey 53:25
Listen. I appreciate, I enjoy, I always enjoy our conversations, and I wish you all the best. Thanks a lot. Thanks, guys. Thank you. You.
More from the HR Leaders Podcast
Rachel Druckenmiller, CEO of UNMUTED.