How to Create Psychological Safety at Work
Sarah Harnett, Senior Director at Greenhouse Software. Sarah shares her inspiring journey from Dublin to leading global teams, emphasizing vulnerability and empathy in leadership. Learn how structured hiring fosters diversity and the critical role of psychological safety in innovation. Discover Sarah’s personal strategies for maintaining self-awareness and well-being.
In today's episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we are joined by Sarah Harnett, Senior Director for the People Business Partner Team at Greenhouse Software.
Sarah takes us on her remarkable journey from her roots in Dublin to steering global teams at Greenhouse Software. She reveals how embracing vulnerability and empathy can redefine leadership, and shares insights on the transformative power of structured hiring in fostering diversity.
Sarah also delves into the importance of psychological safety in driving innovation and the personal strategies she uses to maintain self-awareness and mental well-being.
🎓 In this episode, Sarah discusses:
How her leadership style is deeply rooted in empathy
Sarah's inspiring journey navigating the workplace with dyslexia
The impact of speaking up about her experiences since joining Greenhouse
The crucial role of leaders in displaying inclusive behaviors to foster DE&I/IDE
Greenhouse delivers a 589% hiring ROI
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- 589% 3-year ROI with a 7-month payback on investment
- 36% more efficient recruiting teams
- 56% more DE&I initiatives met
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Sarah Harnett 0:00
Being vulnerable is such a powerful ability to do like it's such an important skill. It's being courageous unafraid, you can be both probably that most days, how does that relate to imposter syndrome and everyone else? How do you actually flip that on your head and use it to your advantage? I'm not going to learn I'm not gonna grow if I don't actually put make myself uncomfortable and be vulnerable to say, that's people as well. But I totally relate with you like, as soon as you share with somebody, the barriers are broken and people can then suddenly they share, but also they feel like there's an environment to be yourself.
Chris Rainey 0:36
Sarah, welcome to the show. How are you?
Sarah Harnett 0:38
I'm good. I'm really looking forward to today.
Chris Rainey 0:40
Yeah. How long has it been since we last saw using the studio before? He wasn't a guest that time?
Sarah Harnett 0:44
I wasn't no, that was like April last year. So honestly, it's a bit surreal sitting here having watched like Donald in new chairs, and I'm like, on the couch looking over. Yeah. So this feels like a huge privilege. Like I have followed you for years. So this is like honestly, no, but honestly, this is like a huge privilege to be here. So I'm really excited to chat with you today.
Chris Rainey 1:06
It's nice. It's nice to meet you as well. Like obviously, we we just randomly met each other on that day that Donald Donald didn't have any of us. Donald fashion as well. It was it was nice to meet you in that in a very organic
Sarah Harnett 1:19
way. knocking on your door. Literally.
Chris Rainey 1:21
Can we call me? Jackie before jumping in tell one little bit about yourself personally. Yeah. And and obviously your role within your organization as well. Yeah,
Sarah Harnett 1:32
cool. So personally, I from Dublin. So you'll notice how you notice from my really organic accent. And so yeah, I born and raised in Dublin i So I've grown up there come from a family of two older brothers I set out in the context because as the only girl the youngest you've had to learn how to defend yourself pretty early on. And I early stages actually shaped a lot of who I am today I first my initial school that I went to was a multi denominational school now you know is like educate, educate together. So you're gonna have like different ethnicities, you will have a school that's like, from learning all the way different religions and all that sort of stuff. Interesting. Whereas Ireland is predominantly actually like, like a schools that are Catholic schools, or all girls, all boys. So I started in a multi denominational school, then moved into an all girls Catholic school, but I'm actually not Catholic. Interesting. So yeah, it was actually and it's only like now in your latter years, you're like, you always try to fit in and even have sisters. So I always like try to fit in with other kids make friends. But that definitely was something where you sort of stood out
Chris Rainey 2:51
from quite a culture shock moving from that school to that place, like the complete opposite,
Sarah Harnett 2:55
massive culture shock. I didn't wear a uniform that I went to wear any uniform. It was all girls, as I said, it was a much larger school. So I didn't I actually didn't really like school, to be honest, I loved college. But school for me. It was an environment where I think that that level of structure and discipline and purely based on learning and regurgitating information and that structured style to students did just doesn't suit me didn't suit me. And as I said, college, I really, really enjoyed. And so I'll come I'll come back to that. But in terms of my introduction, that's sort of my background. In terms of my current role, I, the Senior Director for the people business partner team, a greenhouse software. So I have a team globally. Five business business partners. I'm based in Dublin, so I also play a role on our immediate leadership team. So driving the business here locally. And then recently enough, our head of DNI we call it idea, which is inclusion, diversity, equity and relationships. Yes, exactly. Fievel experience. So Jamie is she just come on sabbatical on parental leave. So her team are bumping up to me in that time. So there's like three components to my row, which I actually really love. Because the business partner in role, I call it like the bridge between have your people team, your Centers of Expertise, your business? And how do we then become those partners, we really thought provoking, having strategic conversations. So you are like feeding back to your Centers of Expertise. And then like feeding people initiatives into your business. So it's like it's a real it's a really exciting role, because you're actually in the heart of like discussions that are outside of the people remit, but have people lands too. So it's like really strategic, really driven commercially as to like how people can make a difference. So it's a cool space.
Chris Rainey 4:56
Well, I think one thing that's cool about Aranui just for about what you're saying, Is it all So links back to your solution or what you're the value provided to customers reflecting that internally, and that isn't common. Yeah. Yeah, you have a lot of companies that actually sell product, but don't practice what they preach. Yeah. And that was something I've always quite impressed when I met Donald, for the first time your chief people officer, that I was like, wow, okay, this is truly a company that is living internally, what they're selling externally. And I don't say that lightly. 100%.
Sarah Harnett 5:27
Like, my very first interaction with greenhouse was like, it just demonstrated everything that stands first in terms of values. And when we talk so passionately about structured hiring, to remove bias, so that you have a more inclusive lens, it honestly permeates through everything. And like, that was one of the most attractive things. And I can say to this day, it has shaped my career in the last few years. I'm coming up to two years in July. And it has shaped my career in the last two years by those values, creating an incredible culture to really like make people feel heard seeing, like, demonstrates your talents, like it really does.
Chris Rainey 6:15
Yeah, well, not today. It's also great for business. totally right. Because that permeates through to the delivery. Yeah, to your customers, hundreds of people a lot of talk, talk about a lot of those things, but then they also is a revenue generator, generates a lot of revenue, and get great, so great customer experience,
Sarah Harnett 6:32
all there's so much research out there, around how much it sells your bottom line, like and you're talking about from having a more diverse team, you're like reflective of your market, you're gonna have diverse opinions, thoughts, you're therefore gonna have so much more innovation, and like, and then you also create the environment where it's okay to, like, have a different perspective, attribute one a different perspective, right, like, celebrate us so that we have far more crazy creativity. So there's tons of research out there about how much it is financially, commercially the right thing to do. But it's also just a good thing to do from a human perspective. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 7:07
But also starts with creating an environment that that people feel that they have to psychological safety to do that, though, right? 100, we talk about a lot of this, and companies trying to move towards that way of working, but they still have a set of systems and structure and even technology. That doesn't know or even incentive and how people were awarded. Yeah, internally, right, to be able to do that. So I see like this conflict, of being able to do that. So that need that tone needs to be set from the top. And but we also have to have the right systems and processes that that make sure that happens. Yeah,
Sarah Harnett 7:39
yeah. Does. The tone needs to be set from the top? And then I do think and like, I very much have this hoping and since joining green eyes, but it starts with hiring them. Like once you know that the tone is that it's like, who you're attracting into the organization, and ensuring that you do have that diversity of thought so that it continues. So like, that's why structured hiring plays such a crucial role.
Chris Rainey 8:05
Talk about that, right? Because you're right, like, so let's talk about when I first started example, and I'm sure you've probably some of you people hire people to sound and look like them. Yeah. So and they carried over to a backpack of beliefs, the unconscious bias, I do believe that many people are not intentionally doing that. They're just like, Oh, they're the same personality we really get on? No, that's the opposite of diversity does you include hiring those versions of yourself that agree with your opinions? Right? So talk about the importance of why structured hiring can just break down the process a
Sarah Harnett 8:37
little bit? Yeah, of course. It's your point. And I've said this so many times, but when you're talking about like, fit and fit in, and I spoke about my early stages was trying to fit in, and that, that I've seen that in my HR career, recruiting for people to like fit in our culture. And really, again, I look at my time and greenhouse, it's about how are they going to add to the culture? How are they going to bring something different, have a different opinion on the toss, so that we are improving, innovating and getting better. So like, it's just a total different mindset. But that shift, and I've said this to loads of HR professionals, and it's like this lightbulb moment, like, yeah, cultural art, I'm like, I know, it's so simple, like so simple boss. That is just such an effective way to say how you're going to add something different here. Because the status quo and the same we're not going to grow, we're not going to change. So what's gonna be different to the second part of your your questionnaire, you're like, What is the process? Like we've basically got our hiring cash. So like, from a structure perspective, like we'll start everything with like, looking at what are the attributes that you're you're hiring for. We'll have hiring panels everyone will be trained on hiring And we obviously use our own software. So we're very much compliant, let's say in that sense. But we will have kickoff sessions. So our town planning and acquisition team are super clear on who they're gonna target. But we'll also look at it from a diversity as well. So we'll look at what the makeup and current teams are, and ensure that we have like a really strong pipeline, for example, we're doing that actually in a me at the moment, ensuring that we do have quite specific tailored searches that we're opening fields, opening our markets, so that we attract to have a very healthy, diverse pipeline. And we will do that. And we'll continue to measure that throughout the process as well, to see where people may be falling out of the process, what's happening. So the TPI team were really, really great with us. Sort of from like a process data, the session itself, like we will have a number of different stages, we'll have like scorecards that are based on purely the attribute, the great thing that we do from a structure perspective is you're going into a SAS somebody on you're assessing them on pure attributes. Whereas like, I'm sure, you'll know, before you go in, and like you might rock off into an interview, whereas the CV and like you're sort of assessing the whole package on somebody, and you're assessing the Fit skills, and all these other things, we're actually we're really clear like, these are the attributes you're going to only assess for. And then you will, you will complete your scorecard. And then we'll have a roundup where everybody will come in to contribute both. It's ultimately the hiring managers decision. And along the way, our TPI team are really, really focused on sharing the candidates get an update along the process at each stage as well. And
Chris Rainey 11:54
that's one of the things that people drive people crazy. Yeah, lack of communication throughout the process. And this is like one of the most, you know, stressful sash, obviously important moments of their lives completely under like a CFO the other day, who stopped her company that she was going through the hiring process, we've got back to her three months later, where I was like, would love to offer you the rubbish like, no, yeah, that's the kind of company that you if this is the kind of if this is a reflection of the company, right? There's not a good one. And the answer is no, like, I didn't communicate with her. Because some of those other candidates that they did prioritize over dropped out there. Like she was like the backup, oh, great feeling. And this is a very large company that everyone listening would know, for, like, you know, even in this day and
Sarah Harnett 12:42
age. Yeah, honestly, I'm not surprised. Like, we produced a survey just recently on this, alright. And it was like the comparisons of the hiring practices meeting the dating world and ghosting and it happens. And it's like, you're, we're all customers. So it's like, what is your brand? What's your brand image? And we know, like 80% of candidates are going to look to assess the company's culture before they even make a decision if they're going to apply. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 13:15
they'll search for videos online, don't read, you know, I don't know if people read Glassdoor on your mobile store. Now, a lot of times that like you can find all of that information. Yeah. You know, so wherever you if you're a company, whether you like it or not, the information about your company is out there. Okay? Like, you know, good bad, you know, LinkedIn exists. You're gonna they're gonna find it anyway. Right? So if you try and portray something that you're not, which you see if every companies do all these paid ad campaigns to kind of portray their employer brand a certain way right, and then people go inside they're like, wait a minute, this is not what I signed up for an elite just as quickly as well. So yeah, I want to go back to the beginning of the journey. Yes, right. I share your I want to say frustration for for school early on. I've never been I never went I went to college but then I dropped out and then in school it is the most unenjoyable time of my entire life. If I'm you know, in secondary school, you've kind of put in a box and success and it looks white one thing completely right. As a creative person that's not without the for me that was not celebrated. You know, I was I got like 40 disease and I'm not ashamed to say that yeah, because it was all art based it was an MP yeah graphic design art ceramics cetera and I excelled massively in those things, but was made to be suppose seeing made to be a felt seen as a failure and told to my face right that you are a failure, right? Because you don't conform to You You're not really good at maths and science in English, right? And I struggled. I didn't learn how to read and so as I think 13 Right, so and even when I started my first job Shane is my co founder, we would help me write emails. Yeah, I would check my proposals. But this is before, Grammarly and even spellcheck, yeah, those days, right where you now you have all the tools Yeah to do that right, as well. And for the longest time, I was quite ashamed of that. I would say something that I hate, I didn't really tell anyone about that. And then I kind of realized what we liked quite a while back. But that that was that's not my superpower. And I was trying so hard to fit in this box of what they wanted me to fit in. Yeah. But when I then Lent, it lent into things I enjoy, like the creativity, whether it's creating a show, or creating the design the field and look, the feeling that it portrays, and having podcasts we're going to have his main podcast is a creative exploration for me. So it gives me energy, joy, sales, marketing, those are the things in this company I get joy out of. But for the longest time, I felt like a failure. And that's why I didn't even go to I was so scarred by that. I didn't go to college and university I dropped out of college didn't go to university, because I don't want to be made suffer like that again. And then I got a job at 17. So I always wanted to share with you first Yeah. Because but yeah, I love to hear you we spoke personally. But yeah,
Sarah Harnett 16:33
I listening to you, like, um, thank you for sharing all that. And as I listened to you, like, I got physically feeling unwell. And why because I can I can relate to some of it. I didn't love school. I always struggled with reading and writing not not like to yourself, I was great at the creativity. So like I had the ideas, but actually articulating it, and the spelling was just and then you get like, you know, you're getting poor results and all that sorts of so you just feel like you're just not good enough. But it was when I was in secondary school, I had a teacher who was really like concerned in a really, really considerate way. So I got assessed and was told to I find out two days before is doing what's called Junior cert at the time, I don't even know if it's called Junior cert. And it's like, you know, like you're you're doing GCSEs we would have do we do leaving cert which is like the Leaving Cert is the assessment to determine what college you can get into and
Chris Rainey 17:42
when I was this is a very important stressful time really
Sarah Harnett 17:45
important really stressful but the junior started like the first time you're doing like these serious exams that are going to determine what level you get into
Chris Rainey 17:53
at that age if it your whole life depending on Oh, and your parents to say that like you're like, if I don't do this the world's Oh, yeah.
Sarah Harnett 18:03
Yeah, you have to make your life decision now. So yeah, I find I just like to die two days before my junior source. And like I saw I wrote in the inside of the exam papers like that I just found out didn't know if anything was gonna come about or whatever, but I was so ashamed. What did you find out that I was dyslexic? Okay. And so I was so ashamed. And actually what ends up happening is I, I continued, I was really determined, I'm going to continue to do higher level English. I'm Polish myself. And Matt really wasn't great at maths. Irish is a really difficult language. So I wasn't great at Irish. I dropped French. And but continued all other subjects at higher level. So but I remember having naturally I remember a couple of things in school that really like impacted me. And one was, I produced a piece of work to my teacher I remember in front of the whole class. Just like saying, like this, criticizing a scene like this is careless mistakes. Your story is great, but you've just been sloppy in your work. And like this is in front of everyone. And I remember I can tell you exactly the classrooms and all that. Crazy,
Chris Rainey 19:19
right? When you feel like that when you connect an emotion with a memory crash stay with you
Sarah Harnett 19:26
stayed with me. Now my parents are like really great advocates. And my mom's a teacher herself or was my dad's like St. If he was to SAS now, he'd probably be dyslexic. My dad's retired and he's a writer. I still like you know, it's got nothing to do with creative. Yeah. So he's like written a book. He has a writer who's the rider
Chris Rainey 19:51
should meet he's a rider like in Holland, it wouldn't be too wouldn't live in therapy. Right Yeah. Send this through now be hilarious. Like
Sarah Harnett 20:07
I'm really glad you clarified that.
Chris Rainey 20:11
What do you mean? Disease?
Sarah Harnett 20:14
Suppressive? Yeah. Flip like they were. Anyway, there were people who were like fried, we're going to write a letter, strongly worded letter. So I mentioned the next day and handed it to the teacher. He was actually brilliant. Like she turned around, she's like, I should have behaved better. And she said to me, my husband's my kids are actually dyslexic. So she showed up. She felt awful. But then she became a massive
Chris Rainey 20:42
I've reflected on it, though. And like, what a great sign of leadership that she took the feedback. Yeah. And like, she could have been like, Oh, who's your dad to send me this message?
Sarah Harnett 20:50
No, she was like, and I hand delivered the letter to her. She was a biggest advocate for me then during school. But I thought I remember no other time, like you're talking about this the Leaving Cert and right? My teacher asked me, you know, what does everyone do in college? And I said, psychology because I loved human behavior. I was always fascinated. And she laughed. And she's like, I don't know if you get the points for that. But you know, Chris, unlike you, I sat there and I said, I ain't gonna prove her. I'm actually gonna show this. And then I became a bit of an academic snob. And I was like, Okay, I want to go to a university status. There's like three, I think three or four in Ireland, not a college. Again, none of my friends knew. Nobody knew I was dyslexic. And I was able to get into university even though you need a third language, which I don't know why. Yeah. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 21:44
it's a system right now to eat a third language. Yeah, to go to college.
Sarah Harnett 21:48
I got the time. Yeah, I did. And that was the only, like, discretion I got or a combination that I got at the time to get in. So I ran through college. And then after that, it was like, now I'm going to do like, a certificate of personnel. At the time, personnel management relations. Yeah, like employment law. Then I went on to did my masters. And it was broken up into two parts, like your post grad. And at the time, I was like, You know what, I'm going to write my thesis. And I'm pretty sure this this is so naive of me. I was like, I'm pretty sure if I was assessed now, I probably wouldn't be dyslexic.
Chris Rainey 22:24
So I wanted to even say in the words, your I'm going to write my thesis Yeah. Shows how far you come. So
Sarah Harnett 22:29
far. And I didn't I didn't let anyone know that I was dyslexic. Because I wanted to prove to no one but myself. We
Chris Rainey 22:36
defined like, you know, like, you put a label you when people put like, for me, when I dispose scar a moment was sitting next to my mom and my teacher, right there, whilst they spoke about how dumb I am. Yeah. Chris is never easy struggle is like, I'm just sitting there. And I stood like you, I remember sitting on the carpet. I remember the womb. I remember the conversation. I remember just feeling like absolute failure. And then I had to say, after school for reading lessons, and I was bullied for that. And I was always told you can't you can't you can't you can't do your point. Whenever I said I want to do this. Yeah, you know, but I could draw a perfect portrait of you paint a perfect portrait of you sculpt you out of clay. Like, and that's what I did at home all the time. But no one that wasn't settled that that wasn't important. Yeah, you know, what was important is I have really good joined up writing. And all of those things. And it's interesting, because I did have an aha moment where I was like, I'm no longer going to be defined of who was expectations. And the moment I did that, instantly, I learned how to read. Wow, instantly, I got good to say got really good. But I mean, it went from like, you know, 20% to like a star, right? Because it was a mess. Because if you sounds like you are what you think about right? Like thoughts become things is one of the things if you think that you are not good at something is almost impossible. But to become good at it, you will sabotage ourselves. We sabotage ourselves. We don't we don't take necessary steps or put the reps in to become good at something. So really, it was a shift in mindset. Absolutely. To be like, I'm now going to do be good at everything that I do kind of like I want to get me against the world, like you said, like I want to prove to you and then all of a sudden, I started excelling in various different areas. And one of my team members actually a few years ago bought me for Secret Santa book. reran I don't know how she found his book is how to be good everything. Yeah, he was like, you're really annoying because you're good at everything. And I was like, no, no, no, there's a misconception. It's like, no one sees all the failures. All the times you fall on your face. Or let's say everyone just sees the success right now and sees that so that's what you're seeing. You're seeing 20 years of me and Shane grinding to get to this space where we're sitting right now. No one saw the 20 years of tears arguments. All livings right the highs and lows of business. They deceived for success because no one I guarantee you, if we probably asked if you didn't say this today, and we asked people around you, they would be like what? Yeah. Yeah, they'd have no idea
Sarah Harnett 25:27
completely. I've had someone say like, No, you're not.
But you mentioned about like superpowers and things. Nobody says actually, being dyslexic has so many superpowers. And sorry, let's talk about Yeah, well, I like I've only really spoken about being dyslexic the last two years. And I think it's really since I joined greenhouse, and the environment that that's that. But when I told somebody who I worked really closely in greenhouse, one of the leaders were, we were preparing for an International Women's Day, that was one of the speaker speakers on the day. And I was saying, like, I think this is something I'm going to share, because I'm in a position now that like, I need to ensure other people don't, like feel the way that I have failed. And that lack of self worth that I chose to in turn, but I told this leader column, and his response was incredible. And she said, like, that actually makes a lot of sense. And I could see myself getting a little bit stiff. Yeah, what's he gonna say next. And he's like, because you have such a different perspective that you bring to the table. And you bring a really holistic and strategic view to a conversation that is like left field. So when we're talking about something, you're not just talking about what what's exactly in front, your like mind will encompass different things and go in a different direction. And it'll get him thinking differently as well. So his response couldn't have been better. And like I've said, when I've shared it with people prior to greenhouse, and I've been embarrassed, I'm like, Please don't tell anyone, like, Don't worry, I won't. And they were, they were honoring my wish. But actually, the response that I got was like, so liberating for so many people like, that's, that's the talent that makes sense. And I was like, Yeah, but nobody talks about how for like, for me, I'm very visual, I can bring, I could connect things together like that thinking ahead. And I'm a massive extrovert. Sometimes I wish I have a little bit of introvert in me. But I use it to my advantage where like, from an emotional intelligence perspective, connecting with people, understanding people, then when it comes to being at being empathetic, leading with empathy. I think growth mindset is all sort of thing because you have to think differently, you have to challenge yourself, and you're talking about mindsets. I've been on a huge journey on mindsets for myself and probably because of that deep embedded, like lack of self worth, or trying to fit in. And only then recently, like I went, I've done loads of journaling I like I've loads of different people that I follow to get different inspiration from others, bing, bing, or whoever. But I would spend time to invest in getting your, your mindset and your head in the right place, like tapping into your energy to see like, how are you showing up? And being very, very self aware and that. So I think there's like, loads of different things that I've actually said, these are some of my superpowers where I can connect with people, I can lead with empathy, and be curious to understand different people's experiences, what their challenges might be, where are their talents and lean into that. Unlike I'm really more comfortable in the last two years about talking about, I just want to surround myself with people who are going to be better at me in different places. And that's brilliant. I want their train of thought I want to be challenged. I want different perspectives, because I've got something really good to give. Whereas I would never have said that before. Yeah. Well,
Chris Rainey 29:17
toward the first thing you was doing you were personally portraying it negatively to people. Yeah. So already you're, you're leading with that. Right? Oh, don't tell anyone. Right. And I get that because I was the same. So So in their head, they're also thinking it's a something that's going to hinder you, as opposed to empower you and be a superpower. Yeah, and that was kind of a big aha moment for me was realizing those things that we are worried about sharing or ashamed overfill you feel less than four are actually your superpowers. So whether it's you being dyslexic I think I probably am deaf. We everything you're saying resonates with you so much. I never told that. I remember someone saying Yeah, but it was never like clinically. Yeah, I remember my teacher saying he may be. But that as plus as my first we might sort of challenges with anxiety and mental health. But both of those things were always things I was ashamed of. And obviously, I only recently spoke about it. But the moment I did, like you said, I realized, actually, they're the things that make me special. And they're the things I'm adding to the world, as well. And I'll explain the mental health part one, you know, that's, that sounds a bit contradictory. But the moment I shared that I was struggling, it created such better relationships with my team, wife, even customers that reached out to me and said, Thank you for sharing, as well, and leading with empathy and being vulnerable. So being vulnerable as a leader, definitely not easy as a CEO and founded a company when I was looking for you for direction. And you're saying, hey, I need a break from a mental health. Yeah, kind of, you know, it's tough, because they're like, well, you're supposed to be the guy that doesn't fall. Yeah, always has the answers that we look towards for inspiration direction, and you're struggling. That's just a reality. You know, and just made every part of my life by sharing both of those things, my strengths, but my most importantly, sharing my weaknesses, as made all the difference. Yeah.
Sarah Harnett 31:30
Being vulnerable is such a powerful ability to do like, it's such an important skill. And when I first joined greenhouses, you see us company, and typically, in Ireland, in Europe, we're probably less open to be vulnerable. And the people leadership team will, like slag me off because we'd, you know, we'd get deep and I would only go surface level. And I remember the first time and they laugh, like, Sarah isn't gonna go to your pair. But the first time we stood up, was by changing my mindset and growth mindset. And I shared a really personal story to think like, 70 people, and I was so asking, like, I was so nervous, and Donald's like, he got this, he got this, but you gotta do it. And he pushed me and he's right. But it's a catchy Brenda, who talks about vulnerability, it's like, it's being courageous, unafraid, you can be both. And I think, like, you know, probably that most days, then how does that relate to impostor syndrome and everything else, but how do you actually flip that on your head and use it to your advantage, and use it to like, I'm not going to learn, I'm not gonna grow if I don't actually make myself uncomfortable, and be vulnerable to say that to people as well. But I totally relate with you like, as soon as you share with somebody, the barriers are broken, and people can then suddenly they share, but also they feel like, there is an environment to be yourself. And once you start behaving in a way that's true and authentic to yourself, you become so much more, so much more confident, you're gonna be from a business perspective, you're gonna perform better, because you're not going to be like hiding these practices or your identity, you're actually just going to be far more relaxed, and therefore perform in an environment that is thriving, that like, fosters a sense of creativity, people to be included. Like, there's, there's so much power, and people being vulnerable. And some of it is about sharing, like, and I joke about when I first started, but some of it is that as I say, Look, I'm going to be really vulnerable. I'm, I'm actually quite nervous about this, or I feel this way, but I've never met somebody who I've said that to her that hasn't reacted positively. And like I said to you even talking about this topic, I feel nervous. And like, okay, let's talk about it. Like no one's gonna say anything other than being really supportive. So like, it's such a powerful tool, but as a leader, it's also really important because your team, your human, and your team, see the difference that it makes and having psychological safety. And the difference that means with like, creating the ability to have greater balance in their life for motivation, and just be overall better and more engaged.
Chris Rainey 34:27
Just just something as simple as just really understanding that it's okay not to be okay. You know, and like, just know, I remember in previous companies, I'll book a holiday off to take a mental health day. I didn't want to tell my manager or book a holiday use my holiday. Because I'd rather not have that conversation. Yeah. And the one time I did in my previous company, I was told man up and get on the phone. Literally, like what that literally was the words and I was like why? Never gonna have that conversation ever again. Course, didn't for 10 years, and I was having panic attacks, I was having anxiety attacks I there was days where I wouldn't turn up and I'd lie and say that I'm like, physically unwell instead of actually feel like I'm having a heart attack. I don't know why. And obviously, I'm like, Well, if I tell them they're not gonna promote me, because he Chris can't hack it. Right, you know? So like, he's, unfortunately my mom. I love her to death. But she she also grew up in an era where she told me when I spoke to her, don't tell anyone. So I just was like, you don't tell anyone? Yeah. And when you did, look what happened? My mom was right. So unfortunately, I just had that one person who was a bad that I chose the wrong person to me. And that's another thing. You don't need to be vulnerable of everyone. No, I mean, it's an important statement to make, because you need to choose, because there are people like my previous manager, that I kind of knew that was going to be the answer. Like, you know, so just be careful. You know, I mean, if you share, like, assume positive intent, I do think everyone, most people start with that. But you know, it doesn't mean you have to start going around telling everyone your story. And what's your struggles? as well? You have to be intentional. Yeah, it has to be Jeff has to be genuine. Yeah.
Sarah Harnett 36:24
I think an element of trust is important there as well. Yeah. You know, if you're gonna be vulnerable, it's sort of leading the trust. So that's knowing the relationship that's involved, though, I think you're right. Like, it's that foundation is really important.
Chris Rainey 36:38
And as a manager, I'd say like, don't think you have that the answer. Like if like a lot of managers and leaders, and I did this, I didn't have those conversations with my team. Because I was what I was, I can't even deal with myself. Right? So how am I going to support this person, but you're not, you're not expected to be a professional? Sometimes it's just they want to understand that you share and that you do you listen, and you can help signpost them to resources and help that you externally to help them. But that you don't have to be in they're not expecting you to solve to solve everything could be an expert on mental health.
Sarah Harnett 37:18
Exactly. And what do they need? Like? What's the what does support look like to you is going to look totally different? Somebody? Don't assume
Chris Rainey 37:25
that's a really good point. You just said that. Everyone assumes that this is the answer for that person. And no, like, he's completely different. For me, it was just, I've had had a panic attack ever since. The day that I spoke about it. I felt anxious. Yeah, even this weekend, Tasha was away with a festival living her best life. And I was at home with Robin and some of the times I get a bit worried about what if I have a panic attack, and it's just me and Robin. It's been like a fear that I've had. It's never happened. But it's just weird, like, stuck with me, like almost like a PTSD thing. Which is fine, but I felt overwhelmed in the past, that would have led to a panic attack. But now I can just call her and say I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed. Yeah, can we just chat for a little bit?
Sarah Harnett 38:08
I was gonna ask her what what's your tools to so
Chris Rainey 38:11
for me is entertaining. And I shared that with my team. So they notice signs. That's another thing. So for example, for me, it's just free things to be honest, really simple. It's like eat eat well, relative relativity as well as like exercise. Because that really, the there is the endorphin release, you know, the cortisol etc. The eat well, sleep well exercise. I honestly those those are like, if I'm doing those consistently, I don't feel anxious. I don't feel anxiety. If one of those things goes the rest go. You're gonna get good night's sleep, and you're gonna go to the gym next day, and then you eat some bad food and it gets to so even my team pulled me up on it recently. Chris, you've been coming in late. You're a bit tired. You're coming in a bit groggy? Like they'll say it to me. Right. Tasha was said to me, because they and I've asked them, please say it to me. Because I don't know sometimes how I'm turning up. Yeah. So I need to make sure that like, you know, and it's the same thing like Shane like we did a we have a yearly health checks, checkups. And Shane and I, it was yesterday. Okay. And it wasn't great. And Wednesday night, like, I mean, as in like, our blood pressure is a bit high, because there's stressed a lot going on in the business. We've both not been training and going in and taking care of ourselves. And he was like, alright, we had we had a conversation last night at like, 10pm about how we're going to change that. Yeah. Because in order for us to turn up and be the best leaders, the best managers as husbands, the best dad is also take care of me completely. So I can't keep being like, Oh, I'm here for everyone will be there for you. Be there for you first, as well, I guess Unlike that, and that's one of the reasons why we do that as well. It's just like, they can't the nurse came to the studio checked us out and we're like, okay, wake up. Cool. Get back on, you know. And that's just a reality of, of it's like, it's tough.
Sarah Harnett 40:12
But it's great that you did that. And you're saying you do that annually? Yeah. Like that's, that's a really good discipline to be in like that. Yeah, that's taking accountability and responsibility to, to know what's important for you. That's amazing. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 40:30
I don't know how to even happen that where that came from. I think I just did it. I started doing it a few years ago, because I was wanting to learn more about myself. I learned that there was loads of food I was eating that was terrible for me. I learned I had allergies to so many things. That I didn't even know that were my favorite food. I don't think that you miss like greatly. So no, not like that. So how extreme of frankly, I've never eaten shellfish, but I'm like insanely allergic. I've never eaten it. So I got thank thankfully, I never did that. Bread. Flour. Sorry, specifically. Okay, so whenever I would eat a sandwich or something with flour, and I'd feel awful, but I just, but I just thought this out. Because we were like, No, but I felt like my energy would be just like, oh, and then I realized that like he was like on the scale. It was like 80% don't like like between under percent. Under that being really bad. And zero being good. It was like 80 Oh my god, I like so much right? I just stuff all the time. Peanuts, largest peanuts.
Sarah Harnett 41:28
That's a lot of stuff. What do you mean, these are things that you're allergic to? Yeah, that is
Chris Rainey 41:32
more must have. There's some other ones that are like, less, less so but I realized it's like a lot of choices I was making were really, basically and then I stopped eating those things. I still have a sandwich and stuff. But like, those are the things that are in there important. But yeah, asleep. I'm like, I know, we're gonna read off script on the podcast right now. But like, I think this is important for everyone because HR leaders aren't that great at taking care of themselves. And we know that as well as like just always having a good routine, you know? Yeah, my wife was laughs at me. She's like you sleep mask? Bed sets a certain temperature. Oh, why is it that there's a routine for it? You know, no white noise? White Noise? No blue light. Right? Yeah. All that kind of stuff. Yeah. It's not like extreme, but like, that is the difference between me waking up feeling overwhelmed, anxious, not being able to turn up at all. Been on my game? Yeah.
Sarah Harnett 42:28
What is really important?
Chris Rainey 42:30
Yeah. How about you? How do you take care of your, your, you mentioned at the beginning of the show, the free different, many roles or any hats? How do you prioritize your own mental health and well being?
Sarah Harnett 42:45
Yeah, it's a great question. Not very well. I definitely am like peaks and troughs in this and what like what I, I've sort of pick up running every so often, and drop us. Whereas I've actually signed up I did a run like just 10 kilometers a couple of months ago. And I've signed up to do another one now.
Chris Rainey 43:08
Not that just 10 is
Sarah Harnett 43:12
mentioned time Okay. Does not matter. I did it walked it. Just took a few hours. But I'm continuing to actually sign up for runs because I need that sort of goal that discipline is the target exactly. I am quite goal focused in my personal life. And so I'll do that. I picked up spinning before and I love spinning actually
Chris Rainey 43:33
dancing and everything. Like clapping hands on sharing
Sarah Harnett 43:36
cell cycle in the US. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They to DJ and everything that that was cool. Yeah. So do I do love that I do need an accountability, like I have two friends I go to the gym with and that is brilliant, because that sort of keeps that discipline. Because I'll prioritize sleep and exercise, when actually I should be prioritized and both I am pretty good at knowing when my energy is getting low. And like making sure that I do have a holiday booked. And getting some day and time like that. And I really encourage that with my team, like my team are predominately based in the US. So coming in with a European lens on taking time off the
Chris Rainey 44:15
USA pretty bad. Yeah, yeah. So I'm gonna like this time again today. But yeah, yeah. Yeah, so
Sarah Harnett 44:21
I'm pretty good at I'm pretty good at that. And I also will be quite reflective and journal. So if I feel like Justin, yeah, I only I only took that up just during COVID. And after COVID I think we all have a COVID story. And that's something that I really went on a whole journey on.
Chris Rainey 44:42
So if notes so you physically write it down?
Sarah Harnett 44:44
Yeah, I got a great gift from a friend of mine, which has gone through a person a bit of a difficult time and it was a book actually. It was 12 months. And each month was a new scale that you were learning and this is my first time picking up and If my guess was all self reflections, now I'd be interested in this space anyway, I think having studied social science and in this this space of HR, you're curious anyway. So I went through that journey. And then I, I have like, yearly had plans there. It's an Irish company. But basically it's like weekly, weekly reflections daily. I went through a time when I was doing it daily, when I felt like I needed it a lot of itself coaching, like, what do you need out of your brain totally get out of your brain, but the difference that can make and you're setting yourself up, like I will know, and I do some coaching in my role as well. And I said this to somebody recently. I'm like, What's your walk? So as you're going into your next meeting, or you're setting yourself up for the day, like what energy work? What do you want to watch one show with us today? And if you are exhausted, or you've haven't stopped, well, you're talking about food, and I haven't an impact. Well, what are you going to do? Or what do you need to reset because you don't want like, I don't want to come across tired and exhausted and cranky. So you have a responsibility as a person as a leader. Just to enjoy, things like to reset. So if I need to reset out, I'll do that. Or I'll do Beachwalk Beachwalk.
Chris Rainey 46:11
Yeah, I
Sarah Harnett 46:12
live close enough to the beach.
Chris Rainey 46:15
Beach, or is it like stones? It's actually a beach? England Beach, to the beach. And it's just like stone?
Sarah Harnett 46:22
No, it is a sandy beach. It's really close to the city center. So I wouldn't go swimming. Although people do. I'll be freezing. Yeah. But if you can blow the cobwebs there. So there's different things like I'm very self aware on like energy and talking into that. Could I do better? 100% Everyone
Chris Rainey 46:41
can laugh about give yourself grace is one of the big feedbacks that I got from my coach. Yeah, beating yourself up. Give yourself grace. Yeah. How about you? Um, on the journaling thing? That was one of the things that helped me with my anxiety. Right, okay. of writing down what are what is the fear? Because then you kind of take all the energy away from it. Yeah. So like, just because you're thinking, Okay, write down why you're feeling like this. And then the more you write, the more you realize it's not true. Yeah, you know, nothing's gonna happen. Notice, hold all the scary things you're thinking about. It's okay. So it's almost like taking out and, and but by the time you've written it down, you've forgot that you're anxious. Yeah. It's like a weird. And when you have an anxiety for people to know, you have this sudden release of adrenaline. And that's why you see people panicking, because the adrenaline is just going, but that only lasts about five to 10 minutes. So if you can make it through five to 10 minutes, you actually will be fine. Right? And you know, I didn't know that either. So just understanding the research behind it. Right. Oh, I'm feeling like this, the adrenaline's going, literally, five or 10 minutes, I'm going to be fine. Let me so journaling was one. Also before sleep. I do it on my phone. I make sure my like, the dark modes on so it's not like bright on my phone. So all the things that I'm worried about, I'll write it all get to get out of my head. Otherwise, I sit there thinking about all night. Yeah, I'm gonna sit in there an hour, like, so like an hour just thinking about tomorrow. And what things if I write them all down is fine, completely. So that's a big one. And then like breathing exercises, like box breathing, stuff like that helps calm down, send me an in fastings and I won. Okay, so I don't eat I haven't eaten today, I won't eat until maybe 2pm. So it just allows me to be really mentally alert, because you're not full of carbs. Yeah, basically, as well. Also, I do extend it fast, because then that kind of takes your body through like a toffee G which where it kind of gets rid of flushes out all of the chemicals and dead cells reset for you. And the mental clarity from that is unreal. Really? Yeah. Because you carry around a lot. The guy one that I can't know his name, he won a Nobel Prize for research on autophagy. I should remember his name. But um, we're just constantly consuming carbs, right? So we're never using our fat. So we fill up our liver with glycogen and then glucose policies. And then we never burn through it because we constantly consuming so it takes about two to three days of fasting. Or if you do like keto, where you don't do many calories, high fat and protein, then you start tapping into ketones and that's your body's preferred fuel not fat. So your brains like super Yeah, I learned I learned it from like a lot of entrepreneurs I was reading like or listening to loads of entrepreneur like BIOS what's the word? What's it when it when someone writes a book on themselves when they call it a biography? Oh by And then kept coming up as like a theme. And I was like, Why? Why? Why all entrepreneurs need as fasting. And also, it's been in religion since the dawn of time, like, fasting. So I did a free day fast a couple of weeks ago, and I felt amazing. And that's been one of the main things that helps me reset. Right. Okay, everything. I'm like, Okay, I'm back as well. But if you if you're someone who's been on a high carb diet for a long time, it takes a while. Right to switch your whole life. You've been like fueled on carbs, right? Yeah. So then switch into your body fat, it's a bit tough so that that helps. And fasting to your to your question that really helps my mental health. I don't know exactly what's happening. But I just feel
Sarah Harnett 50:42
amazing. You know, where the results you know, by how you feel? Yeah, I
Chris Rainey 50:47
never do any podcasts. I always do. My podcasts fasted. Okay, no one knows that listening now they know. I'm always hungry. Yeah, I don't. Even if we do like our summits and events, I do the whole thing vast. It
Sarah Harnett 51:01
doesn't matter what time of day it is. No, because
Chris Rainey 51:05
it just everyone knows a feeling when you eat a meal when you feel like sluggish. Right? That's. Yeah, like I don't I don't want to feel that way. Yeah,
Sarah Harnett 51:14
I do that with nerves. Like when I tell you about that. I told you about that time that I was presenting for the first time in Chicago and sharing my story. And so I was like, there's like three o'clock in the day and you haven't eaten? I was like, I physically could not.
Chris Rainey 51:30
Oh, no. Oh, that's a whole nother reason. Yeah. The thing is that Donald and if you're listening, Donald, you make it look easy. He's really like, Donald just goes in there to charisma, energy. Sometimes I'm like, I hate you, Donald. Because he just oozes that confidence, right, he shared. And I even now, after, you know, we're a business where I host events and podcasts, I still have that same feeling in every event. Yeah. You know, I our third event at General Mills in Switzerland, I nearly had a full blown panic attack before I went to present. And what's going through your mind I quit? Because I wouldn't have thought obviously impostor syndrome. Really? It's back to my childhood. Yeah, that whole thing? Who am I? Who am I? To be in the room? They said, We have this amazing group of superheroes of some of the world's leading company, who am I to have built this company to host this show? There's this this this is not that I don't know about the industry, the topics? They do, right? It's just as in a person district just constantly. My wife will always say, Chris, you will never be content, like enough is never enough, because I'm fighting against that. And it's something I need to work on.
Sarah Harnett 52:42
But Chris, do you think other people in the room are having the same experience and thoughts? Yes, exactly. I
Chris Rainey 52:47
didn't know that. It's only when I started sharing my story, like to your point where I was like, oh, yeah, it's not just me. And I think many people listen, they feel the same way. Until you but again, that's one of the gifts of vulnerability. So one of the biggest gifts as like people, like I get the most value of being vulnerable. What do you mean? Because I'm like, I get the value of feedback. I get the value of great communication, better relationships. So it's the opposite of all of it of which was I'm going to no one's going to, no one's gonna be going weak. Everyone's gonna think I'm a failure. Well, what is my wife gonna think? Is the you know, Oh, yeah. I mean, right. And, and at those events after the first 20 seconds, and I just forget about it. Yeah. It's just like, the initial words. And then you're like, okay, it's fine. The world, nothing's fell apart. And it was a great job, Chris. And I'm like, oh,
Sarah Harnett 53:43
yeah, you're sweating. 100,800
Chris Rainey 53:46
episodes of the podcast, but people think, and I was really shy and introverted as a kid. Where are you? Yeah, in school, I was the sort of kid that sat in the corner and didn't talk to anyone, and had my, my, my paintbrush and my pens. And was, unfortunately bullied really badly in school, which is also a bad thing. But like, I only came out of my shell, maybe as a teenager, once I kind of went through that process that I mentioned of, I'm gonna now forget about all these, these these constraints that I was putting on me. And I'm just gonna go and do what I want to do. And then anyone who meets me now from school, they're like, who are you? Yeah, I've met a few people recently. And they're like, I don't even recognize you. You know, I mean, and this takes energy by the way so after one of the events they're like we do like the eight hour livestream for our summits. I need only two days off. Okay to recharge Yeah, yeah as well. So it's not that easy. Well, this was an interesting conversation. I felt like we worked on a Dr. Phil show on ourselves.
Sarah Harnett 54:56
Thank you for today. How much do I
Chris Rainey 54:59
think these Conversations are important, right? Like, we have, you know, HR leaders podcast about all these different topics that we're facing. But I think we forget sometimes to make sure we focus on the human side. Yeah. And I'm glad that we had this conversation because I think you share in your journey. I think it was also a good opportunity to share back as well. There's nothing like having a conversation like this where you're the only one sharing Yeah. Like, oh, is it like, it's not annoyed? Yeah, exactly, as well. So I can definitely relate to what you're doing. And I'm so like, I'm genuinely excited to see how much you're thriving and enjoying the journey. Thank you, as well, it's it's also, one of the reasons I think I've always connected with greenhouse and Donald and the team is and that really, like we've said, all from the beginning of this podcast, lives through the whole business and permeates through that
Sarah Harnett 55:54
completely. Yeah, I agree. And thank you for sharing your story. And, again, to your point, like, it's people like you who do share it when we had our first conversation, I instantly relaxed when you're like, Well, let me share my story. And you can resonate and relate. And we're in positions where I hope people take that. Yeah, like when I mentioned this before, somebody has reached out to me say, why is somebody in your role? If they're dyslexic? What can they like? What could I do? I'm like, oh, like, we need to change this narrative. So yeah, exactly. Makes a difference to people. I think I am. Certainly I certainly feel to my role. I owe that to people to show that actually, there's so many other talents and superpowers focus on that.
Chris Rainey 56:39
Yeah. Andre percent for let you go part and piece of advice. summarize all that. Obviously, you this has been a journey for you, yeah, to get to where we are now. Right? So kind of reflecting on on the journey to where you are now, what advice would you give to people that are listening?
Sarah Harnett 56:59
My advice is to lean into vulnerability to do it in a way that makes you really self aware, makes you surround yourself with people who are you can be vulnerable enough to say that I'm not gonna be the best at this. So I'm gonna surround myself with people who are like, much more talented in the space and be vulnerable to say, like, that's actually what I need. And then know that that creates an environment where people feel that they can be themselves. And it creates that sense of belonging to something.
Chris Rainey 57:31
No, I love that. And it's interesting, like we said earlier, like some of the most talented people you'll ever meet, are actually the most insecure, people that are also suffering with some of the things that we're talking about. And that's one of the been the biggest surprises, in my career of having these conversations, is that I'm putting so many people on a pedestal. And I'm like, wow, we all just human.
Sarah Harnett 57:57
They've just made themselves human by saying that to you.
Chris Rainey 58:00
Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have you on the show. Thank you. So isn't that scary, was it No. I wish you would have asked it's over next week. Thanks.
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