How to Create Psychological Safety at Work
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we sit down with Udayan Dutt, Vice President of HR at Reckitt, to discuss how leadership, culture, and employee wellbeing can coexist effectively in an entrepreneurial and high-performance environment.
Udayan shares insights from his extensive HR career, detailing Reckitt's journey of cultural transformation and how key leadership behaviors drive sustainable growth and innovation.
🎓 In this episode, Udayan discusses:
Reckitt’s cultural transformation journey
Essential leadership behaviors: Own, Create, Care, Deliver
Balancing entrepreneurial mindset with employee wellbeing
Building psychological safety within a high-performance culture
Leveraging meaningful employee benefits to drive engagement
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Chris Rainey 0:00
How are you managing to ensure that you have that entrepreneurial mindset of ownership, you have the delivery, but also then creating a psychological safety where you can be creative and you can make sure you have the well being and care element,
Udayan Dutt 0:14
I think, in my mind and in my heart, the four actually go hand in hand. I seldom see a meaningful tension or an opposing force between the two. It will not be sustainable for any organization to remain just very hard nosed about the short term, performance and delivery in the short term, because they will not be then creating a tailwind that they need to sustain that into the future, because quarter on quarter, you cannot just be starting from ground zero some point In time it is going to not be sustainable.
You good. I am Welcome to the show. How are you? I'm doing
well. Thank you. Thank you for having me in the flesh. I am I mean it. Thank you very much for having me, Chris. How's the new year treating you? It's been fabulous. So the first few months have been fantastic. A lot of exploration, yeah, a lot of different things that I've been busy with. So yeah, it's been, it's been pretty good. How's it been
Chris Rainey 1:25
for you? Good. I can't believe it's March. Absolutely, the time is literally just flown by this year, faster than I feel like ever I don't know why. Maybe
Udayan Dutt 1:36
I was actually mentioning to someone that we're already looking at Easter break for the kids. And I just can't believe it. I just thought this was just ended, and they just got back to school.
Chris Rainey 1:45
Yeah, it's true. My wife was like, what we're gonna do for Easter break? And I was like, why are we talking about? And I was like, oh, okay, well, it's not that far away. Yeah, to plan that. Yeah, it's crazy before we jump in. Tell everyone a little bit more about you personally and sort of the journey to where we are now at record right? So
Udayan Dutt 2:02
I've been an HR professional for over 25 years now. Started my career in India with what was then the fledgling telecom company, and is now actually India's biggest telecom company. Then lived my dream as the Indian IT industry was coming into shape during the early 2000s did my stint in consulting and outsourcing, specializing in compensation and benefits, and then moved into consumer goods about 20 years ago, with Unilever as the head of reward for South Asia. Then moved on to generalist HR roles with them. So you started in a reward space. I did interesting. I did. That's my specialism and my first love, should I say, in HR. Then moved into generalist HR space with Unilever as an HR director for Sri Lanka. Then back in India, Reckitt came knocking in 2016 and I joined the company as the HR director for South Asia. Then had the Africa, Middle East sort of added to my portfolio as the company went through a restructure. I've moved to the UK about five years ago, and I'm now the vice president HR for Reckitt for their corporate functions, including finance, it and legal, nice. So that's a bit about me. I'm Indian from India, born and bred in the city of New Delhi. Have Been here in the UK with my wife. We celebrated 21 years of being married. Congrats earlier in February. Thank you. Have two kids, a daughter who's 15, going on 16, and a son who's 11.
Chris Rainey 3:35
Cool, I'll be calling you for advice. Then soon, I'm not sure I've got a six, and I'm already like, okay, she's a handful, and I've only got one so far. And my wife and I haven't been married for 20 years, but we've been together for 20 years. Oh, wow, yeah. So since we were 17, I'm 37 now, so not married you. That's a very that's amazing milestone. Yeah. Of marriage, how long have you been together?
Udayan Dutt 4:00
Overall? No. So we got married soon after we met. It, oh, traditional Indian kind of thing. So, so, so therefore, we hadn't been together for long before we got married. The good thing, I think, is what you'll also probably experience, is you've grown together. You then grow together, not the same. People live life experiences together. Yeah, 100% and yeah, children are again, a joy. I think every age of parenthood is what I've enjoyed. I've enjoyed being a parent to a an infant to a toddler to a pre teen. Now it doesn't
Chris Rainey 4:29
get easier. Give me some hope. It does.
Udayan Dutt 4:33
It's interesting.
Chris Rainey 4:35
That means yes, it doesn't. I mean, I guess more it's yeah. It's a different set of challenges. It is it is, yeah, what's really, firstly, what kept you in consumer goods for so long, right? You know, you could have easily went from Unilever to any you know, Unilever's known for world class HR. You know, you probably, with that on your CV, could have gone to many industries. Why continue? Within the consumer goods, just out of curiosity.
Udayan Dutt 5:02
It wasn't a conscious choice of remaining in the industry. It is I have always been driven by organizations, what they stand for, the values, how they show the values in the in the real world, and last but not the least, how organizations look at HR and leverage on, should I say the people agenda and the HR function in driving that people agenda so both organizations, Unilever and record, happened because of my attraction to them for who they are as organizations, rather than industry.
Chris Rainey 5:41
I love that I know from working with, you know, lean and air and Tim London, and part of why that they stayed in their business so you leave, for example, is that that strong sense of the why and the purpose, and you did a lot of the leading with purpose, exactly, training right, with 1000s of managers. I was part of one of those sessions, and it was incredible actually, first time actually been part of a company or seeing that connection of your personal why, with the business, why, and really, how meaningful that can be
Udayan Dutt 6:10
every organization that I've worked for. And I'm fortunate that I've worked with some fantastic leaders. You named one of them as the others as well who I've worked with, and I'm fortunate that they've had such a big contribution, I think singularly, what has shaped me today, and I say always, is going to be part of my identity, are the organizations that I've worked for, and that includes Reckitt, Unilever HR, which is now part of Aon. That was the organization that I worked in consulting, as well as saskin and Airtel, which are the first two organizations that I worked with. I learned a lot in all of them, and they shaped me in more ways than one. So the why is important, yes, and as it comes into the conscious is certainly very powerful. But equally, I think who you become as a professional is shaped by the organizations that you tend to go through your journey. Some people go through one or few, and there are others like me who've had the privilege of going through a few and continue to do so, yeah,
Chris Rainey 7:19
it's interesting, right? Because, as you said that I was thinking that you don't know it at the time. How much is shaping you, right? Because you're in it right? Exactly. It's only when you look back and reflect. If I look back on my career, 20 years before HR Leaders, I can see the culmination of experiences good and bad. Yeah, actually, some of the worst experiences probably, I learned the most, you know, and without those, I probably wouldn't be able to be where we are. No absolutely,
Udayan Dutt 7:50
whether it's leadership, whether it's parenting that we were talking about earlier, I have this reflection. I learned a lot about how to be a parent from my parents. I have learned a lot about how to be a leader from my leader. And you learn what to do, but equally, you also sometimes learn what not to do from those same experiences. And you're right, there are some great experiences, and then there are some which, should I say, help you reflect on how you would do things differently, yeah, towards people that you are leading.
Chris Rainey 8:25
Really random question. I never asked this on the show, but would be something that you feel like you've learned from your kids, that you've helped, just helped you in business,
Udayan Dutt 8:36
or both my kids have helped me and shaped me a lot over the last few years, I mentioned my son is 11. He's autistic and has special needs, and I feel blessed that I have one of the purest souls that I can have. All he wants is just some love and affection. He doesn't have many material desires, should I say, which is quite leveling. Yeah, I had a similar experience with my daughter. So when we lived in Sri Lanka, we, of course, had, you know, expat terms, and therefore it comes with all its fills and fancies. And we had a really nice big car. We then came back to Bombay, which was home country for us. And of course, all of that disappeared, and we became, should I say, non expatriate. So it became a bit more regular. And I remember my daughter got into the car in Bombay and said, Oh, we had a white car in Sri Lanka, and we had a white car in Bombay, and there was very different vehicles, but for her ages, meant white car. And that taught me what she values. And, you know, it was just so simple, almost like the emperor's new child calls it out. And it's
Chris Rainey 9:45
amazing how the child's mind, well, we've used things, yeah. And I think for me, for with Robin, I mean, one of the things I've learned from her is, is the curiosity, the constant. Curiosity that you have as a child. You're not impacted by the news or politics or or anything really, you're just, they're just so curious. And it's kind of one of the things I try to do in the business, is constantly remain curious as well and just dig a few levels deeper and just always be kind of create that culture of curiosity with the team. And I see that every day in Robin, she's always, why, Daddy, why is that? And I'm like, because of this, but she's that. But why? I'm like, Oh my God, if any parents understand that, when your kids like asking you more? Yeah, sometimes I don't even know why as well, right? But I think the curiosity piece is every day, I see that in her eyes, and when she's playing and drawing and just like, that's something we need more in our businesses. Yeah,
Udayan Dutt 10:48
we do. And I think the other thing that I learn a lot from both my kids every day is they remind me about just the power of feeling and the power of how you connect, because all they care for is just feelings with their parent and nothing else. And I think that's another one that if we can carry through to the workplace, is just so important that I have this mantra in my mind that whenever I'm leading HR, I don't lead HR for X number of people. I always believe that I impact 4x number of lives, because behind everyone, whoever you engage with. So today, if I'm talking to you and all what we do is going to be what it is, but depending on how we feel about each other, is going to have an impact on your mood. And you will take that back to your wife and to Robin and others, right? And this is same for me. So, so you always have to remember that you're impacting for X number of lives around you, and it becomes just so much more powerful than in terms of also consciously. Then, what are the thoughts, the actions that you're taking, decisions that you're taking at the workplace?
Chris Rainey 11:58
Yeah, we look at that same here, of HR lead of our content, yeah. We know the content that we put out and the decisions that people make, perhaps based on some of the content that we consume, is not just going to change lives in the workplace, but also at home. Yeah. So we understand that ripple effect, and I think in the past that, like many organizations have passed separated the two like they didn't exist? Yeah. So you have your work in your home, and we know that that's no longer the key. Almost seems silly to even say it out loud that there's two separate things. It's even a way that companies now are positioning their benefits. Very few companies don't offer it beyond the employee to the families. Now it's kind of pretty coming more common practice that these benefits, of course, your wife and kids or your husband can use these as well. It needs to be more holistic and than just, and it also goes beyond just even their own family, where it's like elderly care, right, and things like that, or fertility treatment, all of these things. I speak to certain friends of mine, and I'm like, what? What's some of the things that your company has done that makes them loyal, or the reason they've been there for so long? It's always things like that, like they supported me when I needed them I had an issue. Personally, they might take care of my my my my dad, he was struggling, and my company was fine. Those are the things that really people remember. Oh,
Udayan Dutt 13:20
absolutely, I think the power of benefits should never be underestimated. And having been a reward professional myself, and also one who leverages on that, even today, I am such a strong believer of all the various elements that one can use in benefits, they do evolve over a period of time. So if there was a period, let's say, in the last century, where visible benefits, tangible benefits, like cars or houses or etc. When I was growing up, that was the right. It was the norm for all of us growing up. I'm a little older than you, but it was the same there, yeah, in India or in the countries I worked
Chris Rainey 13:56
in the company, car was the thing it was. And
Udayan Dutt 14:00
in all fairness, it still is at a certain level. You have a company. People still love it, and it's maybe taken a different shape and form in the way it manifests itself. But benefits, for me, gives does the following one, it engages the family along with the individual, and we should never underestimate that, because then the decision to leave the organization, I wouldn't say, becomes harder or easier, but there is that element that someone needs to consider. I had this learning many years ago when I was doing my reward role in Unilever, where a person who was leaving the company came and said, Forget about anything else. The first thing my son asked, So are we going to lose that club membership? Now that, of course, sounds very elitist, but for the son, that was the place where he went and played tennis, that's, yeah, that's his whole solution. That was his whole social infrastructure. And the father had to then go and explain that. So there you go. It's that real is that there's also a big security L. Where I remember when I was doing my HR leader role in India, interacting with the workforce. There we were looking at Terminal benefits for them in terms of life cover, etc. And it doesn't cost the company much, especially when you're drawing group covers. And I remember we increased it by quite a bit. And I don't remember what it was, but it was like from 2x we went to some four. Went to some 4x or something like that, and the amount of goodwill that it generated, I mean, knock on wood, we never wanted anyone to have to sure to use it, but just to have the amount of goodwill that it generated, or you were mentioning about something like fertility care or elder care, we have been a big fan of giving out what I call as bereavement support, which could be everything from leave to actually making sure that if you can as a company, take care of certain things that you need to, because obviously people are not going to be at their best at that point in time. Yeah, the power of that is going to be far more than the amount that you'll need to spend as an organization, yeah, 100% right. So it's again, about effort impact, isn't it?
Chris Rainey 16:05
Those are the things that people remember, yeah. Like they carry with them, yeah. And they'll go and you're right. Like the cost, the amount that cost you is going to be 10x in terms of that person's discretionary effort, their engagement, their attention, is going to outweigh that. It
Udayan Dutt 16:22
comes into leadership as well, if, honestly, if I have to ask you, and if I have to reflect as well, when I was talking about all the leaders who've had a fantastic impact on me, it's not because someone gave me the biggest bonus or the biggest promotion. It's about how they supported me in those times, whether it was at a time of need or otherwise, in terms of how they encouraged me, sponsored me, and developed me, took a punt on me, whatever, and brought me to where I am today. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 16:51
bringing us to where we are today. How are you translating some of what we're discussing as you go through the transformation with Reckitt, to ensure that you have that that culture of well being, that culture of curiosity, perhaps so as well.
Udayan Dutt 17:04
So record has been on a fascinating journey over the last few years on culture transformation. We have evolved as an organization, as I would say, over several years, and now have three robust businesses that we do in the form of home, which is our kind of household products portfolio. Then we have health and we have nutrition. The culture historically in record, which we also have retained, has been a strong sense of ownership, and ownership for us translates into being accountable. You're an owner. You run your own establishment. Chris, so you would know this better than I do that. Finally, the buck stops with you, and I think that level of accountability is there at the same time when the establishment does well, there is also benefits to be reaped and rewards to be had, which is also for you so and that's again, the risk reward ratio that one goes in either as an entrepreneur, in this case, their managers, but still have that quite high. That level of ownership then also extends, should I say, to the way people treat their own careers within record, and that's one at the same time as we are evolving as an organization, bringing in that element of care as managers who need to harness others in the organization has been supreme. So over the last five years that I have been in my role, I have worked a lot with senior leaders on really harnessing the next level of leaders who have then gone on to CXO minus one roles, or even below, and then have kind of grown into other roles that have fed into the pipeline for the future, with keeping both the balance of performance delivery potential and then also, how do they care and harness future potential and talent in the organization. So that's really how we've looked at it. Elements on well being, inclusion, which are very important, vital, because they do provide the necessary reminders, impetus, as well as topics for people to consider, are enablers in this holistic picture that we are drawing, yeah, as an organization into the future. What?
Chris Rainey 19:24
What you mentioned briefly, though, but what? What's the what, the main why find the transformation you mentioned you want to keep the core of it, of your culture, but what, when you say transformation? What was right, what was driving that?
Udayan Dutt 19:36
It is essentially the ambition and the vision of the organization that we've drawn out in terms of what the purpose of the organization is and how it has to come alive. The leadership behaviors were looked at and revised a few years ago, and the four leadership behaviors that are there in the organization are the ones that have been identified. As being the most essential and the ones that we need in the highest order. I will mention that it is own, as I said, being a company of owners create, so really looking at creativity and promoting that in the organization in everything we do, I love that care, which is, as I mentioned, about caring for not just yourself, but also being responsible as a corporate citizen, about caring about people who are around you, which could be your partners, it could be your stakeholders, it could be your customers, it could be your suppliers, and essentially the world that you are impacting. And last but not the least deliver, because we are a business, and we do have to deliver, and we should not lose focus about on that. So those are really the four main or the four lead larger behaviors that the group has. What
Chris Rainey 20:52
was your approach about this, as many companies I'm chatting to right now that are going through the similar process, like, how did you define those and get feedback?
Udayan Dutt 21:00
So it was, it was a process where we had people who obviously went through a lot of, should I say, data gathering in the organization, whether that was through surveys or that was through focus group discussions about really retaining about what's best for record and what has been core for our organization, and you don't want to lose that essence. And at the same time, what is it that you need to modulate and what is it that you want to bring for the future? So the elements of own and deliver are ones that would resonate a lot with people who have been associated with Reckitt for a long time, in whichever shape and form the organization was called because the name of the company has also changed from keys to RB to now Reckitt, so own and deliver would be ones that would really be true to that. And should I say, we've kind of, then added on, this is my view, by the way, that you know, we've added on these new elements of care and create to sort of freely come up with what is most relevant, and one that will take us into the future.
Chris Rainey 22:06
I find the four. Firstly, I love the fact that you just chose four, because sometimes there's like, 10, yeah, in companies, and it's like, it's hard to even remember half of that, right? And I know exactly what you mean, yeah, yeah. And then you're like, Okay, now how do we how do these four principles, values show up? How do we make sure they show up for it in every part of the business, every part of the employee life cycle, our processes, etc, right? To really embed that, yeah, because it can't just be the words on the wall, right, like we discussed earlier as well. But there's also an interesting balance between those, because you have curiosity care at the same time the entrepreneurial part and the delivery. And normally, sometimes I don't work very well together, right? Like, and I had a my previous company was a high pressure sales organization, very like, like a Wolf of Wall Street, very high pressure sales and and they would say things like, care, but it didn't really show up in the workplace, right? So how are you managing to ensure that you have that entrepreneurial mindset of ownership, you have the delivery but, but also then creating a psychological safety where you can be creative and you can make sure you you have the well being and care element. Does that make sense? That it does.
Udayan Dutt 23:30
The question makes sense, I think, in my mind and in my heart, should I say the four actually go hand in hand, and I seldom see should I say a meaningful tension or an opposing force between the two? Why do I say that the example that you're giving in God bless the organization, but it will not be sustainable for any organization to remain just very hard nosed about the short term, performance and delivery in the short term, because they will not be then creating, should I say, the adequate runway or the tailwind that they need to sustain that into the future. Because quarter on quarter, you cannot just be starting from ground zero. And they and by the way, the turnover was insane, smashing 100 Yeah. So at some point in time, it is going to not be sustainable, and therefore to be able to balance, not short term performance and long term performance, but to say, what are the decisions that I would take which will also secure performance into the future? I'll give another example from the time that I was in consulting, where a lot of your projects are one off, and therefore get you the big ticket in terms of the revenues for that. But then you also do look for sustainable relationships that do guarantee some amount of ongoing revenue for the firm. That could be annuity, multi year contracts, etc, etc. Now in. And therefore that's where the whole element of, should I say, creativity, comes in, because if you're a good entrepreneur and you are a good owner, then you will have to dial up your creativity to be able to sustain that over a period of time. The care element has to come in, because it's, again, as I said, care not just for your employees about and it's not just about, you know, wearing kid gloves and sort of being pedantic or paternalistic towards your employees, but also being responsible as an organization in the world that you're operating in. Yeah, and last, but not the least, the focus on delivery, because finally, that is what the organization is there for. Is essential. You asked, how do we bring it alive? It is an essential element of the way leaders are looked at and the way leaders are assessed in the organization. It is part of, should I say the syntax, and that's why it flowed out so easily from my tongue, in the way we speak to and talk about leaders when they're evaluated. Of course, leaders get rewarded for short term and immediate delivery in the form of what they earn for the year or the immediate opportunities that could come their way. But when it talks about investment into the future, these are the elements that then come in in a big, big way. Yeah, we also have programs that are there in place where leaders are also given adequate feedback about how they're doing, what's the impact that they're creating, which could be through engagement surveys that the company has done, or it could be through, should I say, dedicated or bespoke, one, you know, 360 feedback, it's all done in that framework. Yeah, finally, and I think I personally believe the power of being able to embed something well is just staying true to the course, because there is no right or wrong between a four element model or a 10 element model aside from the four element one, as you said, is much easier to just consume, okay, and communicate across and imbibe and embed, not embed, but imbibe. But, I mean, I'm saying intellectually, or, you know, theoretically, there's nothing wrong with one or the other, but staying true to that over a period of time and being able to put that in every part of your organization. I also want to mention here that I think that your leadership values also have to show, not just in the way you're assessing people, because oftentimes we tend to take values and tend to just put that into people, yeah, but it also has to show in your other elements. For me, the other elements are the way you run your business and your operations. How are you doing business? What are the brand name an example, the example I would give is today, if we look at any of our brands that are household brands, they rely a lot on the trust that people have towards them. So if you go and pick up, and I hope so you do,
Chris Rainey 28:04
I can tell you first one last night. Oh, straps yours, there you go. And I've used the brand for ever. So whenever I have a sore throat right now, yeah, so literally, I was and I picked it up yesterday in the shop, and I was like, Oh, I'm gonna be speaking to you tomorrow, because I know it is a record product. And most people probably don't even know the name Reckitt and they used
Udayan Dutt 28:24
we get, we are known much more for our brands. And a lot of times, yes, I do need to qualify where I work with the brand. So it's a brand like that all, or that brand like pure x, or a brand like neurofin,
Chris Rainey 28:36
is it per seal as well? Sorry. What's the cleaning product? One our cleaning
Udayan Dutt 28:40
products, finish dishwasher
Chris Rainey 28:43
only. There was one I was like, so yeah.
Udayan Dutt 28:47
And I think all of those brands stand and are the ones that would in, maybe even in a very subconscious way, yeah, live the leadership values that we have. And that's what I
Chris Rainey 28:59
mean. I never even thought about it like that, but it's true. Yeah. And now that
Udayan Dutt 29:03
I'm mentioning it, you would take that back and say, Hey, does that stand for that? Right? The other form in which it has to come alive is just the way you structured your organization as well. Are you structured as an organization? So I could say that, hey, I want to be the most entrepreneurial organization. I'm making this up, by the way, but if I have 10 layers to the top which everything going up for approvals and sign offs back, it's not an entrepreneurial organization. You mentioned something about creating psychological safety. It's in the every day. I remember one of my bosses telling me, soon after I joined record, I don't mind you make 10 mistakes, but fail fast. And out of those 10 mistakes you make learn and then get four things that are right and are so big that it makes a big difference. I think that's the element where you know, something like entrepreneurialism with safety comes in. We all make mistakes. None of us gets everything right. Eight 100% Yeah, all the time. But that's where it then comes alive in structures as well. So I really see organization, values, culture, which gets talked about in a very sometimes amorphous way, being brought alive in the way you do business. What do your brand stand for? Who are your key customers, who are the people that you're doing business with, on one hand, in your own structures, in the way you structured the organization. Because if you were to walk into the organization tomorrow, whether as an employee or as a partner, how are you experiencing the organization? We could say entrepreneurial. Then you come to me and make a proposal, and then I'll say, Hang on, Chris, I have to go to five people to get their approval on, you know, whether the thing works or not, or, you know whether we're going to approve it or not. It's not going to give you a feeling that it's a very entrepreneurial organization. Yeah, right. And also,
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