The Retention Revolution: How to keep Employees Connected to your Company
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, I’m joined by Erica Keswin, a Wall Street Journal Best Selling Author, about her book "The Retention Revolution." Erica's insights shed new light on employee engagement in today's diverse workplace.
Erica articulates a transformative view of work, moving from a physical location to encompass purposeful activities and interactions. She underscores the significance of human connection in fostering workplace relationships, advocating for intentional activities that strengthen these bonds.
Discussing career development, Erica introduces "From Ladders to Lilypads," a concept that champions dynamic growth opportunities within organizations. She believes this approach is essential for inspiring the modern workforce.
She delves into the evolving role of managers in facilitating talent mobility, advocating for a leadership style characterized by vulnerability and empathy. This perspective is critical for adapting to the changing dynamics of the workplace.
Erica's expertise serves as a valuable guide for leaders to navigate the complexities of the modern work environment, emphasizing the need for connection and flexibility in employee retention strategies.
Episode Highlights:
Embrace the changing dynamics of work and foster deeper connections with employees of all generations
Recognize the importance of human connections in the workplace for improved performance and well-being, as highlighted in Erica's insights
Implement dynamic career growth opportunities within organizations, following the "From Ladders to Lilypads" approach to motivate the modern workforce
Recommended Resources
Follow Erica on LinkedIn
Grab a copy of her book - The Retention Revolution
Learn more about Erica’s services
Fuel skills-based organizations with Design Thinking for HR
Traditionally, the role of HR has focused on administrative tasks and policy enforcement — all of it essential, but none of it transformative. But today, that's no longer the case.
🎙️ Automatically generated Podcast Transcript
Erica 0:00
A professor was studying what makes one team higher performing than another team. His name was Kevin kniffin. His dad was a firefighter. And he grew up hanging out with the guys and mostly the guys in the firehouse, he decided to study the fire houses, and he was getting his PhD. And what he found was that the firefighters who were the most dedicated to the ritual of the firehouse meal, sitting around the table connecting as humans, it correlated with higher levels of performance, and those firefighters actually saved more lives.
Chris Rainey 0:34
Erica, welcome to the show. How are you?
Erica 0:37
I'm great. How are you? Good, how's
Chris Rainey 0:38
life you're on, you're on tour. Now.
Erica 0:40
I am, I am coming to you. From the frontlines of the retention revolution, I have had good travel karma, except for two days ago, that was not fun. But it's been great out there in the world.
Chris Rainey 0:55
Before we jump into level, a little bit more about your background, and sort of the journey to where we are now and obviously little bit about the new book, and then we'll jump in,
Erica 1:02
you know, I've been in the human resources, human capital space for 25 ish years, I worked at Russell Reynolds, recruiting heads of HR worked at The Hague group doing HR consulting. And now my work really is focused on helping companies improve performance through people, you know, and what I often say is, you know, HR, those of us in this space that we're really finally having our moment that, you know, we've always known that this is not just the soft stuff, it's the hard stuff and the important stuff, but the rest of the world is finally caught on. So it's it's been really exciting.
Chris Rainey 1:36
What was the inspiration behind the new book, The retention revolution?
Erica 1:40
Well, as we know, you know, everything we knew, or know or thought we knew about work changed overnight in March of 2020. You know, I will say that a lot of the trends that I talked about in the book, were not new, but they were accelerated by a gazillion years by the pandemic. And so the idea behind the new book, you know, there are in many organisations, four or five generations working under one roof, and how people are thinking about work, thinking about their careers, looking at it as a portfolio is very different. You know, I say, having been a recruiter, back in the day, if you if I saw a resume with somebody moving around so much, it was a big red flag. Now this is this is just what it's going to be. So the focus on the book and why it's called the retention revolution is gone are the days where, you know, we as people, leaders need to think about how do we have golden handcuffs and chaining people to the desk or the chair, we need to be really intentional about how we onboard people early and often let them know what our values are, and how we live them. While they're with us, we help them learn and develop up, down and sideways. And if and when they come and tell us they're leaving, which they probably will at some point, we need to refrain from the don't let the door hit you in the behind figure out ways to stay connected, because work is going to be an already is much more of a virtuous cycle. I
Chris Rainey 3:01
think especially now that work is no longer a place that you go to, right, you mentioned sort of training people to the desk, there is no desk in many of these companies. It's also completely forced companies to rethink this 100%.
Erica 3:12
And I love what you said, because the subtitle of the book is seven surprising and very human ways to keep your employees connected, we keep them connected by threading the needle and reminding them what they do is connected to the bigger purpose of the organisation how their role matters, regardless of what it is, we help curate connection in person online, at your local Starbucks or wherever you might be working. And you help connect people to their colleagues, to their customers, and even helping connect them, you know, to your to themselves. You know, just a few minutes ago, I guess you got off of a webinar that focused on on wellness. I mean, that's a piece of it, too.
Chris Rainey 3:51
I got a feeling as well, when you wrote that subtitle that when you put very human ways you was very intentional. Why did you use that word, this
Erica 3:59
is cheesy, but you know, left to our own devices. You know, we're not connecting. And without that intentionality, it's just not going to happen. And one of the things that I think about a lot these days, and I think this is for someone who might be a, you know, a business owner, a senior leader, a middle manager, or someone in HR or a new person entering the workplace, everyone is trying to figure out, how do we optimise for this desire, aka demand for flexibility, but also this human need for connection even at least in 2023 Even though we have all this great AI out there, we are still human. And you know, we have to figure out how to stay connected. And you know, again, you just came off this wellness webinar. I think a lot about you know, work doesn't necessarily have a place a desk, some companies it does some it doesn't. But how do we think about that, in addition to you know, the surgeon general that just came out with a report that talks about the loneliness, you know, an isolation epidemic, and so it's up to the people leader is to identify ways to curate connection and identify ways for people to come together. It could be for an hour, it could be for a day, I just got back from Seattle two days ago where one of their big, their future of work group was kicking off what they call team week that they're distributed. They have a lot of people in Seattle, but they have people all over, they're not asking them all to move to Seattle twice a year, they have everybody come to Seattle for Team week. And it is one full week of highly curated activities, volunteering, and what you what they don't want to have is have everybody come to Seattle and have everybody sitting in their own corners, just sending out their emails and doing you know, being on teams calls. So it's very, very intentional. And what you find is that when when humans connect their oxytocin goes up their their feel good hormone, stress goes down, and there is actual there is a physiological response in our body when we connect with other humans. And so the goal of these 13 weeks is to really foster and deepen these connections. Because as we know, once you meet someone in person, the tone and the tenor of how you Kate with them online, completely shifts,
Chris Rainey 6:07
and you learn so much more about each other as well and find similarities and have that connection of courses, then they're going to result in, in innovation in your organisation, right new ideas, and we sparking different functions that, as you said, if he wasn't intentional, probably would never even meet each other. As well, right. And also feeling Dec feel connected to the culture of what it means to work for that organisation, which is sometimes difficult. When you're working remote, you
Erica 6:37
know, a lot of my work, all three of the books are inspired by a study out of Cornell, where a professor was studying what makes one team higher performing than another team. His name is Kevin kniffin. And he grew up his dad was a firefighter. And he grew up hanging out with the guys and mostly the guys in the firehouse. And the short version of what he found, he decided to study the fire houses, and he's getting his PhD. And what he found was that the firefighters who were the most dedicated to the ritual of the firehouse meal, sitting around the table connecting as humans, it correlated with higher levels of performance, and those firefighters actually saved more lives. So there was this correlation between connection and performance. And I know, you know, there are going to be people listening, that aren't going into an office, you know, full time or maybe even part time. But even using this example, from Microsoft, you know, I'm not out there saying you must come in, you know, two and a half days a week. That's the sweet spot. But the idea is, it goes back to, you know, this idea of being intentional, that we still need to find time to connect with other people, because it does, there is an ROI, and it does impact performance.
Chris Rainey 7:44
And one of the things I love about a book is how you talk about either old or old ideas and moving that from old ideas to new beginnings. And you talk about one of the areas that's one of your favourites that we can kind of jump into, you know,
Erica 7:55
one of the old ideas and new beginnings is around, there's a chapter called from ladders to lilypads, you know, gone are the days that everybody knows is going to just go up one rung in the ladder. And then 50 years later, you're going to you're going to retire with a plaque and tension. And sort of this new idea is that if, within an organisation if you don't create an ecosystem for growth, and help people grow up, down, and sideways, they will it's why it's called from ladders to lily pads, they will hop on over to another, I am seeing that, you know, you ask before we started recording, you know, I was sharing some of the places where I've been since the book came out. Although funny and only came out a week ago, I feel like I've been in 100 places. And it is one of the things that I'm hearing from from HR leaders, I really do believe, especially when we think about Generation Z that's taking over the workforce by storm, even more than compensation, right, they want to get paid, if they don't feel like they are growing, they are going to leave. And so it is something that we all need to think about in the in the HR space. What I love about this idea, it doesn't have to cost a tonne of money. You know, if you are listening, and you have a small company, and you know, or even just within your team and you have 10 people on your team, and you can create a spreadsheet that says, you know, How does everybody want to learn and develop? What are some projects? How can we match them and kind of call it a day, I heard an amazing example. And then I'll share some examples of some of the big systematic ways that companies are doing this as well, which I also love. But just a small anecdote where, you know, anybody can do some of this stuff, you know if they decide it's important to them. So I heard a leader on a podcast recently who said, you know, said to her team, you know, I'm not in charge of what's going on with the macro economic swings, you know, between the expansions and the contractions in the market, I can only control what I control. But here's what I'm going to tell you. To her eight people on her team, she said, go out and find a job description of a job that you might want in three to five years. It could be within this company or it could be in any company. Just bring it to me. And then let's look at the skills you would need. for that job, and let's look at the skills that you have now. And let's, let's do a gap analysis. She said, what I can do for you, and what I will do is help you close the gaps. And if a boss said that to me, yeah, I mean, what I wouldn't go anywhere, this is the devil that I know, these are the guy, hopefully have friends at work, you know, I let generally like what I'm doing, but this boss is going to help me grow and develop, which will help me forever. So you know, I don't want it in my book, I have companies from all kinds of examples from all kinds of companies, not just these big companies that you know, can afford these systems. But I think where there's a will, there's a way even on an individual manager level, I also profiled some companies in this chapter, you know, Citi Group, for example, where, you know, big, huge company, and I met with Jason Cohen, who does, runs their learning and development for the HR organisation. And what I thought was interesting about this example, in particular was sort of the shoemakers children where they felt that they were helping everybody else in city grow and develop, but didn't focus on themselves as HR professionals. So they created what they call the experience hub, it's it's much more symptom, you know, systematic than, you know, these previous examples that I gave, but the idea was to say to, you know, 10,000 people in HR, I mean, you're still talking about a lot of people in your company, like, how do you want to grow and develop, and let's get these projects. And what's really interesting that what the data shows, is that if if I say to someone, hey, you know, Erica, you're in sales, and I want you to give us 20 20% more effort, you know, I might do it. But I'm not going to be thrilled to do that much more of the same thing I'm already doing. But the data shows that if somebody says, you know, what I'm in, let's say, learning and development, and I really want to dip my toe and learn get more hard skills around people analytics, let's say I am willing to give an extra 20%. So not at 20. You know, the in terms of you know, back in the day, Google did the work four days in your want four days in one thing and do a project, but people are willing to do to go above and beyond. So it's, it's good. When you think about learning and development this way, yes, it's work to do this matching and helping people grow. But it's good for the person. And it's also good for the company, because they probably will stay. But you're also getting extra effort from the people that are being given these opportunities. So I think it's a win win win all around
Chris Rainey 12:22
100%. And you're developing those skills that you need for the future. Yeah, same time, right. So he's a win win win, I need one
Erica 12:30
more extra win to your wins. Which is that to your point earlier, like people are generally siloed, especially in this new hybrid world, that you're hardly meeting people from all over, when somebody works in one area and then gets exposure to another, they are then getting exposure to the company in a much more holistic way, and are able to connect the dots. So yeah, you know, this is one of the things I think in 2020 for everybody, but should put on their bucket, you know, their, their bucket list of things to at least investigate and say, What is my company doing? And what are some things that I can do to move the needle, you know, you know, to start to do more in this area.
Chris Rainey 13:08
So I'm interested in because literally on Tuesday, I was interviewing the CHR OHS of Siemens and Ubisoft two shows in the same day. And both of them during episodes, wanted to talk about talent, mobility, and to talk about the talent marketplaces that they're building. And they were so excited about it for all the reasons that we just mentioned, but also adding in things like mentorship. So within the talent marketplace, as an employee, I can send a request to a leader to be my mentor, right. So now you've got that knowledge exchange, does not leaving the business, even when that leader does leave, at least, you know, you're attaining that. And now, and also talking about how their employees now feel so empowered, and taking charge of their own careers, right, no longer the days that you're waiting for the pat on the shoulder to do that, and then linking that back to skills, right, they can see, okay, this is where I am, this is where I want to go, Visa the skills, I need to be there, and then linking that back into the LMS, LMS, or LSP, to then create a customer learning pathway specifically for career super powerful. Yeah,
Erica 14:09
and I agree, it empowers people, here are two other things I would add, and maybe this came up in your conversations with them. There needs to be to make this these talent mobility in these ecosystems successful. You also need the change management to go along with it. Because let's say that you have this great system that enables nudges, to come to Chris to say, Hey, you said you're interested in this role. But there's not that but maybe you still have a manager who wants to hoard talent, and Chris is crushing it in his role. So if I'm your manager, I don't want to let you go. But let's say that the managers really need to be trained, and there needs to be expectations. And then the last piece of it I've been thinking a lot about is on the recognition side. I mean, what about it? If six months from now a year from now at your annual get together? You know, the managers who had the most people in their team was internally moving, get get a gold star, you know, get or whatever, because all of these things need to be aligned, you know, there's the systems and the processes. And then the change management piece, which I think is also so critical because you want to have the sense of psychological safety, to raise your hand to say, this jobs out there is my boss really gonna, you know if and that's what the retention revolution is about. If you love them, let them leave the company or your department, and trust that it ends up being good, good for the whole ecosystem.
Chris Rainey 15:31
Yeah, to your point exactly what happened during this conversation, I asked, you know, what was the biggest challenge? Of course, they mentioned change management. They did specifically say, though, to your point, how do we change the mindset of managers from being talent importers to 10 exports? Yeah, right. I remembered it from the conversation. And that's a big culture shift. Like, again, like what you said also, the way leaders are traditionally compensated doesn't work in that new context. You also have to think about that, like you said, I know rewarding managers for being talent exporters, and being public about that and talking about it in leadership meetings in and making sure that's part of your values, actually, in culture and in graining that into business as well, right.
Erica 16:20
Yeah, herded here, you're hurting? You're one thing that I would add to that there's a chapter in the book, you know, people say, What's your favourite chapter, it's like asking me, which is my favourite child. But there's a chapter called managers are having a moment. And I would also put on my list of my bucket list for 2024 is that, you know, many companies did and I stated back then, and I would state it now, I didn't fully agree with what was going on, when everybody when some companies not to be named, you know, we're just getting rid of all of their middle managers, I would say that in middle isn't a great word MIT, they're at the centre. And these managers are on the front lines of this revolution. So when the when the leader comes and says, Okay, we're going from three days to four days in the office, okay, manager, you go tell everybody about it, you know, all of these things that we're dealing with the mental health and the wellness issues, these managers on the front line. So it reminded me when you were talking about, you know, let's celebrate these these managers as talent exporters, the chapter is about elevating and celebrating managers, it is harder to be a manager now, I it was always hard, I think it is that much harder now. But if we really elevate the role, and make the role, not just make it a destination, it's always like, Alright, I'm going to be a manager, it's like a pass through. But if we sort of say, okay, managers, you are on the frontlines, we need you to be successful. And we need you to help move people around, because development is so critical to Gen Z, and we need you do all these things. And we're gonna celebrate you again, I think it's such a critical piece of this whole puzzle right now.
Chris Rainey 17:53
Yeah, it's interesting to say, because a lot of the conversation I had today during that webinar was around celebrating that and and recognising. One of the leaders said that their data, they saw within the line managers that those managers that were recognised four times a year, were 50% more likely to stay with the company, which really says something four times not a lot, right? We're not talking about a huge amount here that are being recognised for the hard work you're doing 50% more likely to stay
Erica 18:20
and even having events for these people, managers. You know, I do work. I was just at the big L'Oreal HR global HR off site a couple of weeks ago. Stephanie Yeah, with Stephanie. So Stephanie Kramer than Yeah, he's amazing head of HR for L'Oreal, USA, one of the things that she has started doing and she said the last one was was was unbelievable was a people manager Townhall. It's all it's a full day of learning and development, just for the people, managers. And you there, she did it for 3000 people, managers, and you are invited to this if even if you're managing one person. So talk about a way of elevating and she had, you know, speakers and excitement around this job of being a people manager, which we know is hard and not, not everybody wants to do it. And so she's, it's like, how do we make it a thing and make it a thing that is exciting that people want to do and sort of be part of the movement? Yeah, I
Chris Rainey 19:17
love that. Because sometimes it can be lonely, being a manager or leader right. So being in that room and having they're probably the first thing they probably Oh, it's not just me. It's not just me just having these challenges and struggles Oh, and I finally have a group that can really be vulnerable and have conversations I'm sure that I'm sure those meetings have a huge impact.
Erica 19:39
On your you have your you clearly have your pulse on what's going on. Because also in that chapter, I highlight a bunch of companies that have ways for managers to just bond with each other. And sometimes it's not HR is not there, the senior leaders or it is just the managers to do exactly what you just said, to not feel alone. You know, I I almost equated you're gonna laugh if you don't like it parenting moment when like, I was when my kids were little I was in this parenting group and my husband was there. And the first time, you know, some woman was like, my kid, she was crying. My kid just said she hated me. And then everybody was like, Oh, my gosh, I'm not alone. My kid said that too. And then someone says, that's normal, right? So it's normalising these, these challenges that these managers are going through? Yeah,
Chris Rainey 20:24
especially when they're taken on kind of don't say new things. But you know, when I was a manager, I wasn't really having conversations around well being, oh, my God, my team, right? So it's such a subject where most managers are so you know, did not prepare, didn't really know what questions to ask, Do I say, Deist? Am I gonna say the wrong things? And fenyr? Say nothing at all? Which is the worst thing you can do? Right? And then so being able to have that good, those conversations and be like, Okay, what's working? What's not, and bearing in mind, they're also trying to take care of themselves, at the same time, let alone their team. What are some of the practical things that you're sharing in your book that leaders are listening can do with their teams and their managers?
Erica 21:04
You know, during the last couple of years, especially in the beginning of the pandemic managers, leaders, were, they were more human, right, my first book was called Bring your human to work. And during that time, you know, I would never want to go back to March of 2020. But I also don't want to forget pieces of what we saw and how we felt that that leaders were more human, they were checking in, and they were saying to their people, how are you really, really doing? And so yes, we're busy. And again, in the beginning, in March of 2020, people were spending 60 minutes of a 60 minute meeting checking in, are you okay? Is your family, okay? Is your technology working? Like, we want to make sure that people are alive, and then our companies, at least we can keep the lights on about a year out maybe 30 minutes of a 30 minute meeting. But now, you know, we're past that, which I'm happy we're past it. But I do urge people to keep to figure out ways to keep checking in. And so there's a lot of examples in the book, it could be five minutes, in the beginning of a meeting, you know, whether it's, you know, what is your energy level, or there's a funny one that I talked about in the book, it's called pick your NIC, which they do at a company called mural. And they there's nine images of Nicolas Cage, and are different expressions, different expressions like stress, or net, or bees, or an each one's connected with a different movie. And it's hilarious, and people will just pick one. The idea, though, is not to say like, you know, stop the meeting, why is Chris stressed, but it does a couple things. And it's a reminder, it says, Okay, if you and I are working on a project together that day, and in the beginning, you say that you are stressed, you know, red light as your peer, I might give you more grace, if I don't hear back from you right away. And as a manager information like this is just gold, to be able to call you later in the day and say, All right, Chris, what's going on? How are you really, really doing? People think, okay, we're over it. But we it is something that we have to keep doing.
Chris Rainey 23:07
It's funny, you say that cuz my daughter just started school. And they do that when the kids come into the classroom. So they kind of have like, the faces on that kind of different expressions, and a kid chooses to cool and they walk in the door, wherever their, you know, sad face or happy face or you know, etc. And they also have like a sort of a traffic light system. So when, when Robin comes home, she'll be like, Oh, Daddy, I had a Green Day today. Right? And it's really
Erica 23:33
I have to I have leaders that say go around, you know, either what is a word that describes how you're feeling today? Or red, green or yellow? Yeah. And it's taking the pulse in that moment. It's it's inclusive, everyone participates. And it's, it's just taking a moment or, you know, some companies have rituals, I wrote in my rituals book, Eileen Fisher has something where they bring a time before every meeting, and they just stop, they take a minute. And they the chime is intended to sort of take away the outside noise and to focus, or Toyota has a, someone shares a safety moment that again, like gets us focused, and in the present moment, and it's aligned with a company value that we're all about safety. So I think there's so many cool examples, and I love that they're doing it with young kids in school. I wish they were doing it. I wish they were doing with my kids in college these days. But it is important. Take a beat. Take a moment. Take a breath.
Chris Rainey 24:29
There's a lot in the book. But you know, what's the one thing you really want people to take away from the book dude, fill you with joy. It's
Erica 24:35
the million dollar question that we're all struggling with. How do we optimise for this desire for flexibility and the human need for connection in the chapter on flexibility I talked about how do we ace flexibility we need to think about flexibility through the lens of autonomy and agency. Everybody wants to have a little bit of autonomy over their jobs. Yeah, not everybody can have the same amount, right? The person who's checking people in at a hotel can't have The same as an IT worker that can do everything from home. But it's important, the second part of ACE is designing for connection, these moments that matter. And the third is thinking about flexibility through the lens of equity. And not everything is going to be equal, but we can think about it through the lens of equity. And so, you know, kind of checking in with ourselves and with our teams of how are we ought to how are we optimising for both, you know, it's going to tip and it's not always going to be perfect, but we need to keep coming back to this moment. And I know you said one, but I'm going to share, I'm going to do say one more second one that I that I really think about for any leader out there. And it really sums up a lot of what we've talked about, which is when you have to say we're rolling out this new programme, or we're going to switch how many days we're coming back to the office, whatever it is that you're doing in this moment, my recipe for a for a good manager, a good leader in this moment is the following, approach it through the lens of vulnerability if you're comfortable, like you know what, this is hard, also hard for me. And here's why. The second is through the lens of empathy. You know, Chris, I know this is hard, we've been three steps in and one step back and two steps forward and two steps back. And yes, we've been changing, but this pendulum is swinging. So the empathy piece, which we can all learn from your daughter. And the third piece is to approach it through the lens of experimentation. And I think that's the note that I would end on, which is we're all walking around with our shoulders like this. And if you're going to roll out a change of any kind to say, the world, everything we know about work has been shifted and turned upside down. We're gonna try this, this is an experiment, you know, we're gonna reserve the right to change it, we want to hear back from you and CO create, I think it takes the takes the temperature off of pretty much anything. So I would try that. What
Chris Rainey 26:48
we need to save some for people to buy the book. I absolutely love it. I love what you're doing and when. And there it is, when we first connected, I was like, I need to get this into the hands of all of the HR leaders. So we let her listen to the listen to the show. And not just take Charlie's every manager every leader I think what we what we spent what we speak about sits with every single leader and individual in your organisation. We all own this together. So last thing I'll say front you go where can people connect with you want to reach out to you personally say hi, or what have you. Where's the best place
Erica 27:18
to find me on I'm on LinkedIn a lot. You can just look up my name. My website is just Erica kasman.com and I have a human newsletter that goes out, you know, once or twice a month. You know, I'm also on all the other social media
Chris Rainey 27:31
amazing. And as always, everyone listen, all those links are below. So wherever you're listening or watching, they're already right there. So there's no excuse. Go click there, grab a copy of the book, make sure you go Connect America but honestly, I love what you're doing and appreciate you come on the show and look forward to doing it again soon.
Erica 27:46
Thank you so much.
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