How to Plan CEO Succession the Right Way
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we sit down with Michael Fraccaro, Former Chief People Officer at Mastercard, to discuss the future of HR leadership, succession planning, and the balance between formal and moral leadership.
Michael shares lessons from his nine-year tenure, including CEO succession, scaling culture globally, and building high-performing teams by empowering others.
🎓 In this episode, Michael discusses:
Balancing formal authority with moral leadership
Leading CEO succession and the power of planning ahead
How to empower teams and avoid becoming the bottleneck
Why vulnerability and "quiet power" are essential leadership traits
The evolving role of CHROs in navigating complexity and disruption
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Michael Fraccaro 0:00
Your role as a leader is like an architect. You want to not just oversee people, but to have a group of people around you that are designing an ecosystem for the future success. And there are particular areas that I'm strong at and good at, but there are other areas where I know I've got a gap. And so when I first became CHRO, one gap was I didn't really know exact comp. You don't need to have all the answers. In fact, you shouldn't have all the answers. You need to be surrounded by people that have it's okay to not have the answers, but to surround yourself with people that are better than you in particular areas. And actually, the quality of the output and the quality of the solutions are far better than just a homogenous group, or even if you seek yourself in a little cubicle and think that you've got all the answers, that would be the wrong thing. And it certainly hasn't been my style, and I've learned from a lot of other people the power of bringing people together you Hey,
Chris Rainey 1:12
Michael, welcome to the show. How are you, my friend, very good. How are you? How good? It only took us how many years to get you on the show, and now you're leaving. I feel like you avoided me that long, and then now you're here. I'm only playing what you're gonna be doing with your new found freedom now. Yeah,
Michael Fraccaro 1:29
so between now and the end of the year, is really helping Susan, a successor, who's wonderful. She's been in three weeks now and drinking through the fire hose, so just helping her with the transition, and I've got a few other projects internal, and then really beginning to look forward to 2026, and still be involved in HR and business in different ways. So
Chris Rainey 1:54
can't keep away. We can't keep you away. No, I love it, and I know, I know you're already an advisor for quite a few companies already, right? I've seen that's right as well. So you're definitely going to be kept busy. I know this is a personal question I want to ask anyway. Why now? You know, because a lot of people, people, when I talk to them about, hey, you know, they're stepping away from the role. Why now? Yeah, now
Michael Fraccaro 2:21
was the right time. You know, I've overseen a number of changes, particularly with the CEO transition, quite a number of years ago, now, nearly five years ago and and just, you know, the opportunity to bring some fresh perspectives into into the business and into the role. So I've been doing the role now for nine years, and I feel it's the right time for me, personally and professionally, to to look for a new challenge. And so that's what we're doing. And it's been a very, very seamless, very well thought through transition. And if you're in the role of HR, where you're, you know, advising the business about succession planning, you really need to make sure that the playbook is, yeah, you're leading from the front. You're role modeling it. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 3:05
you don't overstay over You're welcome when you look back on your career in those nine years. What you most proud of
Michael Fraccaro 3:16
so a couple of things really proud of. One is obviously building a fantastic team around I know you've met a number of my team, so I think that's sort of one, just building up their capability amongst the team that are specialized in particular areas, and really bringing all of that knowledge to support the business the team is really one the other two, one would be around the succession planning. So leading the CEO succession planning quite a few years ago, back in 2020 and that was seamless. Our current CEO, Michael me back is doing a fantastic job. And the exiting CEO, AJ Bunger, who's now the president of the World Bank, he also just role modeled what a leader needs to do during that transition year and transitioning out. So that was wonderful. And the business itself was very stable, seamless, and the business continued to grow from then. So that's sort of number two. And then the third one would be around culture, really leaning in heavily, around, how do we continue to scale MasterCard way, and MasterCard culture to support all the things that are going on around us, and really making sure that the sort of heart and the DNA of MasterCard, particularly the areas that we talk about decency, and decency quotient is really core in the fabric and scaling that through the rest of the organization globally. I think they're sort of the three big things I'd sort of call as my highlights. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 4:54
I love that I was speaking to a teacher recently has gone through a couple of CEO training. Positions in the last year, actually, which you can imagine how challenging that is. When you think about that part that you mentioned, what were some of the biggest lessons that you learned that you also added into your own transition, that you could share with people listening?
Michael Fraccaro 5:17
Yeah, there's a couple of things. One is around this can't be seen as just a single event. It's a it's a process. And there is a, there's a sequence in which you have to think about it. So you got to start with, okay, what is the kind of timing that you're looking for? So is it two years out, one year out, three years out? Because that really helps think through around am I able to prepare some of my own internal successes to get ready for for the role? That's number one second is, what is the specification? So what is the criteria that we're going to be looking for, for the successor? And it may be very different to, you know, the role that I've been doing, because circumstances have changed, the environment of work has changed, and therefore we may need different areas of emphasis in the profile of the person that we're looking to bring in. So the profile is really important in the specification, and then the third one is really around. Are you going to do it alone, or are you going to partner with, with someone external, to also have a rigorous methodology of actually doing this in a very objective way? And so they've been the three key ingredients that, I would say. And then out of all of that, is just ensuring that you bring people along the journey through significant milestones, through that 12 month or 18 month program, and keeping an open mind, helping leaders as well that whoever's coming in to replace you is not going to be like you. In fact, it's better to have someone who has got different attributes and different skills and and being very objective about it, and stepping back at the right time, allowing the process to take its course, and allowing those that are going to ultimately make the decision, make the decision, but with some input from yourself as well. So they would be some of the things I like
Chris Rainey 7:18
who are the key internal stakeholders that need to be involved in that, and how often, how early should you engage them in the process? Yeah,
Michael Fraccaro 7:27
so clearly, so in the case of the Chief People Officer, CHRO is clearly the CEO is, like a critical stakeholder in the board in terms of the CO succession. So clearly, when we doing a co succession, it's the chair of the board, and the chairs of the nominating and Governance Committee and the chair of the Comp Committee essentially have a very key input into the process. And then basically it's the full board, because you want to ensure at the end of a decision, particularly for CEO succession, there's a unanimous support who, whoever the final candidate is that's going to be selected. And it's interesting, you know, where tomorrow is going to be the the funeral of the Pope, and you think about, you know, succession planning from who's going to be the next pope. Slightly different process and approach, but, but even in in cases like that, there has to be support. And you know, the white smoke at the end when all the Cardinals have voted is sort of a vote of confidence about who ultimately is going to to be the next pope. So all of these require thoughtful planning and consideration and and support. Yeah?
Chris Rainey 8:43
What would be your best advice to everyone listen about how you communicate this to ensure that it doesn't cause perhaps, uncertainty, you know, within the business or external
Michael Fraccaro 8:55
Yeah, I think it's, I think the way every leader needs to think about this is that it's their responsibility. You know, I remember when I first started as the Chief People Officer at MasterCard, I had one conversation with the Chair of the Comp Committee, and he said, Michael, one of the first things you need to be thinking about, even though it's like day one on your job, is thinking about your succession. And I think every, every leader should always be thinking about, you know, their time and what they need to do and how they contribute, but also how they're thinking about the right time for them to be moving on at some point and preparing that team. You know, we, one of the principles that we talked about, whether it's the CEO succession or my own succession, is ensuring that there's a high functioning, high performing team and and you want to ensure that whatever happens, you want to ensure there's a stability at that point of a decision and a training. Position, because there may be some internal candidates that missed out, and they're going to be clearly disappointed. It's very emotional. But at the same time, you want to ensure that they feel as though they've had a fair opportunity, and it's been a fair and transparent process, that's really important as well.
Chris Rainey 10:18
Yeah, and that connects to the second thing you mentioned when I asked you what you're proud of. You're proud of, overdose and you've developed. I know many members of your team very well, and one of the things that I've noticed with them is I can tell before I even met you, that they were led by someone that allows them to be empowered to make decisions that they could really show up as their authentic selves, and that you you were really leading from behind and letting them have that freedom to I could just feel that in and again, it came across even in the way that MasterCard has constantly been innovating and sort of challenging itself to constantly disrupt itself, even down to you know, what you've Created with your talent marketplace and some of the areas that you've been really leaders in, is that something that you were very intentional about from beginning as sort of trying not to be your own bottleneck and getting out the way Absolutely.
Michael Fraccaro 11:13
Yeah. I mean, I think my style has always been one of, you know, thinking about the role, not as a as a manager, but but almost like an architect, right? Your role as a leader is like an architect. And so you want to not just oversee people and obviously have the checks and balance in place, but you want to have a group of people around you that are designing an ecosystem, you know, for the future success. And I took a lot on board myself, knowing that there are particular areas that I'm strong at and good at, but there are other areas where I know I've got a gap and and so when I first became ch o1, gap was I didn't really know exec, comp. And so I was very fortunate. I've had two fantastic heads of reward, and they really filled that void. And so I think there's a sense of empathy and vulnerability that you have to have, knowing that you don't need to have all the answers. In fact, you shouldn't have all the answers. You need to be surrounded by people that have and I think that's probably one lesson that I've learned along the way that it's okay to not have the answers, but to surround yourself with people that are better than you in particular areas, and actually, the quality of the output and the quality of the solutions are far better than just a homogenous group. Or even if you sit yourself in a in a little cubicle and think that you've got all the answers, that would be the wrong thing. And it certainly hasn't been my style, and I've learned from a lot of other people as well, the power of bringing people together is really, really important.
Chris Rainey 12:50
Yeah, that also requires you to be vulnerable, which isn't something in my early stages, leadership was something we spoke about, right? You know, in the past, you as a leader, you had to have all the answers, make all the decisions. And one of the things I learned the hard way as a CEO is actually my vulnerability is actually one of my superpowers, and actually asking for help and knowing that I am I'm not the smartest person when I do need to surround myself with better people that know more than me. Was quite a big shift, if I'm being honest, from the way earlier in my career, of what I was told it meant to and it it really builds so much trust when you, when you, when you when you can show that vulnerability to those, to that individual. And it kind of empowers them to go above and beyond and really, truly
Michael Fraccaro 13:38
engaged, absolutely, absolutely, I think you hit on a really important point. There's probably two aspects. One is around this notion about quiet power. You know that you don't have to be the loudest voice in the room, and you want to be the one that makes space for others to be able to have a perspective and to really rise to the occasion. And so if you can create that environment, I think that's a really important aspect of leadership, leaders of today, but also leaders of the future, that quiet power. And then the other piece is around, as we all know that you have in leadership, you have the formal authority, or the formal leadership because of the hierarchy, and you have this other dimension, which is the moral leadership. And this is a bit about the what, the why and the how, and so, you know, you're in a position where you have to make a decision, because that's where you are on an org chart. But if you take an example like return to Office, you know, CH rose are still talking about return to Office, and some CEOs are still talking about it. You can, you can mandate it, and you can require people, because that's your role, and you have the prerogative, but you get a much better outcome if you inspire people. So one is require or inspire, and. And so I think as we think about leadership, there will be times where you do need to require people to do something, but if you can find that other dimension of leadership which is really inspiration, that's the whole winning the hearts and minds of people, you get a much better outcome, and you get much greater followership as well. And I think that point that you mentioned about vulnerability, we never really talked about it, even up until five years ago, before the pandemic, it will seem to be a sign of weakness. Now it's actually seen as a sign of strength that you can talk about, you know, gaps that you may have and areas that you may not be strong in and I think that's a really important and I think it really does show a level of authenticity in your own leadership, and that's what you want with your team, and that's what your team are looking for as well. Yeah, I
Chris Rainey 15:52
feel like that was one of the things during the pandemic, which was kind of like a veil was lifted, where people could see into each other's lives and including their own leadership, and be like, Oh, you also have problems, like me, challenges, right? Because everyone saw each other was, you know, we were all in the same bucket, whether you were a CEO or someone just joined the business. We were all going through just sort of shared experience, and people kind of the veil of the CEO title, and all of the like, Oh, wow. This person also has challenges with their family. Also has challenges with, you know, mental health and well being. And it kind of like, I feel like one of the Silver Linings that it kind of connected us in a way that we never really were connected before. If that makes sense,
Michael Fraccaro 16:33
it did. Yeah, the stigma, um, sort of left very, very quickly, because people started telling tales of the new normal, how they felt lonely, or how they felt challenged because they couldn't move, they couldn't go and see their elderly parents, or they couldn't visit, you know, and celebrate a particular event. All of those things really had an impact on people, for sure.
Chris Rainey 16:55
Yeah, what are your thoughts on the this new generation or the next generation of HR leaders coming through what, what would they need needs to lead into, and what do you think the skills that they they're going to need to succeed?
Michael Fraccaro 17:09
Yeah, and I think it's a couple of things, some we've already touched on a little bit around, you know, thinking about, you know, formal leadership and this moral leadership, because I do think trust and civility in the workplace are really important ingredients, and if you start to erode those elements and not being able to have honest conversations as well, you erode the elements of trust, the absolute foundations of successful organizations. So I think leaders need to lead with heart as well as their mind. So I think that's really important. I would also say specifically that the world is complex, and I think the role of the CHRO is equally becoming even more complex. And if you think about all the things that are thrown up to ch arrows today, so they're having to deal with technology disruption with AI. What does that mean for my function? What does it mean for the organization, regulatory change, so things like executive orders, as we see here in in the US pay, transparency laws. You think about geopolitical tension. I mean, there's just a whole you just name it. There's just and I think CHROs and leaders in particular, just need to think about, how do you simplify and make sense of the world and to navigate these complex issues and therefore really allowing them to just focus on the things that you can control, link it back to the strategy, and really having a clear message and calming people down along the way. I think that's just sort of one. The second one, I think, is we're inundated with a ton of information, and so leveraging data and analytics in insights to be able to either lead a particular change or use that data and insights to think about, what are the implications of this for my team and for my workforce. So things like, even if you take things like, you know, the employee experience surveys. Okay, well, it's not just a satisfaction survey. What deeply is happening here that we need to adjust or do differently, or looking at productivity measures? What is it telling us that there's a whole range of things, but I think data analytics is certainly a second one, and then the third one, I would say is just this whole piece around technological disruption. I do think we have to ensure that there's a level of excitement, but measured in the same way that there are some mechanisms to guide and to focus on the things that actually going to help. Benefit communities and our workforces as well. I think there's still a lot of noise out there, and I think it's sort of distilling that noise and just finding what are the right signals to be able to help bring people along the journey of technological disruption. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 20:15
So just a few things. Despite all of that, do you think this is one of the most exciting times ever to be in this role?
Michael Fraccaro 20:26
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it is. It's a super exciting time. And I think, you know, there is a generational shift that we are seeing in terms of new CHRs coming in, and there is a, there's a cohort that's sort of moving on like myself, but I think it's extremely exciting time and period, because I think CEOs, boards, investors, they're all looking to not just what the business or what the company is doing today, but how they building a sustainable future, and a lot of it comes back to your human capital strategy and and I think the impact that ch rose can have today up skilling, re skilling, all the things that we've already mentioned, there is just such a great Canvas for CH rose To paint and and to create, you know, the next evolution of change and transformation in the workplace. I think it's super exciting.
Chris Rainey 21:27
Yeah, we speak a lot about, thank you for sharing those three points. I think they're really fascinating. We could do a whole show on each of those topics. We spoke about the business perspective. But what about for you personally. How do you deal with that personally, from, you know, well being perspective, because that's a lot, right, you know, and we don't speak about that enough. And I see many CHRO studios that have burned out, especially over the last couple of years, and it's something that we don't talk about enough. How have you maintained a balance, both between your work and yourself personally in the family. You know, we know, we know it's not a balance is more of a blend at this point. How have you maintained that? What advice would you give to people listening? Yeah.
Michael Fraccaro 22:14
So for me, I mean hobbies and passions, right? So I really enjoy fitness, so I have a routine that I do every day, whether I'm traveling or not. I always make sure I spend at least 30 minutes a day doing some level of fitness, including yoga, stretching, running, whatever it may be. So fitness is a really important because for me, just being in touch with nature and or just quiet time is really important for me, just to be grounded for the day. So that's sort of one. Second thing is I really enjoy reading, and so I'll read novels. I'll read biography, whatever it is. I mean, the last book I read was The revenge of the tipping point by Malcolm Gladwell, fantastic book, and it gives you some new insights. I mean, he had the first book of tipping point, like, 20 years ago, and so this is like another edition, fantastic. So Reading helps as well. And then the last one is a new hobby that I've picked up. So I like sailing and so forth in the summer, but coffee, like really making real, like espresso coffee, and finding the right coffee beans and grinding it and getting the right mixture and and that, to me, is going to be one passion point they're gonna go deeper into when I've got a bit more time so The things. But yeah, I think every ch you look there is there is never enough hours in the day to respond to all the emails you're going to get and and you have to put some boundaries up. You have to ensure that you've got time that you spend with whatever is important to you, whether it's your family or your grandkids, whatever it may be, you really need to set aside time to do those things, because if it starts to erode into those aspects, then I do agree, Chris, that you start to find a decline in your own ability to perform at the best of your game. I mean, just last year I got one of these aura rings, you know. And I'm not sure if you've got one, but this is really helpful, you know. And it obviously monitors your sleep, but it also looks at things like your readiness for the day, and it gives you little prompts. And I think things like that are really helpful. I'm seeing more and more people, you know, getting these wearables, and those little nudges that you get during the day. Say, Hey, maybe you need to take a pause, or you need to take a breath. I think it's a good thing.
Chris Rainey 24:47
Yeah, no, I agree. For me, it's my Garmin watch, by the way. And the first thing I do when I wake up, I don't know if this is actually a good thing, is, the first thing I do when I wake up is I look at my readiness. I look at my sleep. How much REM sleep did I get? Etc. Yeah, and I'm obsessed with it. How many steps I did that? You know, did I make my step counter yesterday? I've even got my watch mapped to my scale so I can see my weight. So yeah, I mean, it has become part of my daily life. But I love your point. I want to spend a few seconds on it off. Because most of us, and this is just based on my experience speaking to friends and family, when we when we start pursuing our careers, we forget and put our hobbies and passions to one side so many people. And also we tell ourselves we're working really hard and doing these things for in my case, my family. But then it but I'm not showing up as a dad and a husband, so I'm just sort of lying to myself and kidding myself that, oh, I have to do this. So I have to do get back to that email. I have to do that too. But to your point, there's always going to be another 24 emails that I need to reply to. So I've and for me, that led to me having anxiety attacks and burning out. And I would have like, you know, six months of solid work, and then burn out for a month, and then sort of vicious circle. And I've recently started to put some of those boundaries in place to make sure I turn up to tennis, practice, Jujitsu practice, my daughter, to actually explore some of those hobbies and revisit now some of the hobbies I love growing up and understand that I can have the I can have both, yeah, I just have to choose, yeah, to have both. It is. And those that say that don't have enough time, there will never be enough time to your point. There'll always be something. If you look at it through the thing of, I need to have an empty inbox and no meeting schedule, then you're never, you're never gonna do anything. So I love the fact that you shared that with everyone. I think that's really important. Absolutely,
Michael Fraccaro 26:41
absolutely, yeah. I mean, the other thing is, you know, we talk about life and how fast it is, and, you know, sometimes we think we are like machines, but we're not, you know, and there's this concept around, if you press pause on a machine, it does stop, right? But when you press pause on a human actually, things start right because the pause allows you for reflection. It allows you to think clearly, it allows you to re energize and and I think that needs to come into any kind of leadership development program or well being program to give permission to people to just stop, and it's okay and it's okay to switch off your emails at night. It's okay that you don't respond immediately, unless there's something really critical. There are things that you just know that pausing actually is a really good habit to have. And so taking time off to be able to see your kids play and perform, whatever it may be, actually, is part of that, that pause, you know that you step back from the day to day.
Chris Rainey 27:53
Yeah, actually, on Wednesdays of I started this meeting, like a year ago, I scheduled time on Wednesday I have, like, a no meeting Wednesday, and I just gives me time to just reflect and take a step back and not focus on the business, rather than being in it all the time. And that's really helped. And I think very quickly to your point, like that was one thing that happened during the pandemic, because everyone was at home, they had this opportunity to be, to reflect and be like, Is this really what I want to do with my life? Yeah, and I got, and I'm sure we all had this, like I had friends, family members, changing careers and, you know, saying this is no longer what I want to do because, because it was for the first time, they actually had a moment to just stop and reflect and say, you know, is this really? Is this aligned with my why, my purpose and my family, my values and a lot changed.
Michael Fraccaro 28:44
A lot has changed. Yeah, yeah, no, no. It was a lot of time for people to do the self reflection, yeah, and, and, I think, yeah, I think everyone did go through that period of just questioning, you know, their why. So I think it's and I think it's better to have that happen yourself, that your drug versus an event that happens where it's forced on you, that you have to then take time off, for example, if there is a restructuring and you're unfortunate that you lose your job. I mean, sometimes it's forced, and that actually becomes quite difficult, and actually can lead to a lot more anxiety, but if you put it as part of your practice, I think it's a really important thing to do. The other thing you mentioned about, you know, being intentional. We also have a MasterCard. We do meeting free days every court on a Wednesday, typically. And we did that during the pandemic, and we've just continued that practice, and just to have that one day every quarter for folks to know that there's there's no meetings, but to allow them to take that time away from the frenzy, to do the things that are important for them, still meaningful, but it it's just one of those things with the. People will write to me and say, this is just great, Michael, because we've just been able to do X, and we've now to focus on something. It just gives people that, again, permission to feel that it's okay to do that, you know, at that particular point in time. And so it's a it's a system that I think you have to build that
Chris Rainey 30:19
also sends a clear message from the business to them that you truly mean it when you, when you, when you, when you think about we want to prioritize your well being like it's a very clear message, and it's a message of trust as well, right, that you're that you're put and how do you continued it beyond the pandemic, whereas many companies kind of reverted back and took away, took away a lot of those things as well. And I'm sure out of that, the memories that people will have from those days, the probably some a lot of innovations probably come out of those days where people have had time actually to reflect and think about some new ideas or things that they weren't working on that were passion projects that would probably then end up benefiting MasterCard along the way, right? Because you just, again, you're just not in the thick of things. Yeah, I love that. I think we should definitely do, do more of that. And these are things that aren't, doesn't, don't cost huge sums of money, right? Like, these are small things that make a huge difference. Yeah, they're low cost,
Michael Fraccaro 31:23
high value, and people appreciate it. So I think, I think those things are really, really good. I mean, the other thought, if I'm thinking about the future of work and where this, you know, potential conversation could go regarding well being you could see companies beginning to adopt more institutionalized, radical sabbaticals, you know, so the idea of sabbatical every five years, and and giving people permission to take two months off, or three months off, fully paid And and that will allow them to, you know, reflect and to get energy and to come back, you know, recharge, and will lead to, again, long term performance. And, I mean, it's a future thing. I'm not saying wherever master cards think about this, but in my own mind, around is that think about where is this space potentially going. Those kinds of things could be practices that could be adopted by forward thinking organizations to say, hey. And I know some organizations already have sabbaticals, some are paid, some are unpaid, but I think that could be a real great practice to continue this momentum of change in this area, it's so
Chris Rainey 32:42
funny. You just brought back a really fond memory. I kind of had my own forced radical sabbatical in my previous job. I was there for 10 years, and I never took a holiday in about five years. And I had a crude all of the holiday. So I had like, three or four months worth of holiday, and the HR team said, if you don't use this, you're gonna lose it. Yeah, so I was kind of forced as a force, because I really enjoyed my job, very sadly, and I was reading, you know, my whole self worth, unfortunately, was wrapped up in my job. And I'm not ashamed to say that at the time, so I was really it was always about an unhealthy relationship. So I ended up having like, a three month break, because I had to use all of this, and I can say I came back a completely different person. Yeah, because I started, I started dancing again. I grew up break dancing. I started. I started skating again. I grew up playing ice hockey. I start. I started spending more time with friends and family and and I just, you know, my well being improved. And when I came back, and I remember my team saying, it's like, Who is this person? Like, who are you? Right? So it was like, was it was kind of forced upon me at the time. I remember not being happy when I had to leave as well, but it was a game changer. I think if I didn't do that, I would have probably burned out and probably left the business. Yeah, so yeah, hopefully that'll be that'd be really interesting to see. I think the way in which the way we work is changing. I think it could make that possible. If you look in the previous hierarchies and structure the way we do work, it wouldn't have worked. But now we're kind of moving to, like project based work and skills based. You can afford to have someone walk away, because then you can kind of architect the right team and skills around it to continue to work, because that work is not owned by a person or a function. So I think the way, especially what Master, is a perfect example, the way you the way you look at the way works done, that could make that possible the old ways of working, it just wouldn't have worked in the traditional structure, if that makes sense. Yeah? And, I
Michael Fraccaro 34:41
mean, the traditional way is very linear, yeah. So it's, it's a zero and a one, whereas I think the future is going to be a lot more agile and and you can break down components of a job by tasks that people have, and then you try and match those tasks of skills that people may have in the organization. So you. You'll be able to do it in, it in a different way, for sure, I
Chris Rainey 35:04
know, I know you're still going to be in the space, but you know the role of CPO master, God, what are you going to miss the most?
Michael Fraccaro 35:11
Well, I think the thing that I'll miss the most is obviously, you know, the the team. You know whether it's my current team or whether it's the leadership team, those kinds of things are not going to be there, you know, because I'm not going to go into another operational role in the foreseeable future kind of thing. So those aspects I will miss. I just enjoy being around people and really seeing them grow. And so that opportunity, I'm gonna have to do that in a different way, but, but those kinds of things, so they're probably the two things I really enjoy. Visiting our offices around the world as well, you know. So we've got, we've got offices in all these different exotic locations, and meeting people and the customers in those things, that's also but, you know, I'm not going to be in a point where I'm going to woe is me kind of thing. It's like I had my time, and it was wonderful, and I'm blessed that I had this opportunity. And now it's time for someone else to, you know, take the baton and take it to the next level. And so my my focus is not looking in the revision mirror. It's to look through the windscreen, say, what's down the highway. And I'm more driven now by what's ahead of me and the future of work. And you know, the capabilities that HR is going to need to embrace to the next step. I think it's exciting. I want to be a part of that and helping others within the HR community to continue to grow and develop in those spaces. Amazing.
Chris Rainey 36:49
Last question, before I let you go, you've already shared so many great pieces of advice, but for those HR leaders of tomorrow that are going to be sitting in your seat one day, what's one thing you chair Adam that you wish you knew when you sat in the seat before you sat in the seat? Yeah,
Michael Fraccaro 37:07
I mean, it's a the one thing would be, this is a role that has a tremendous amount of responsibility and an impact, and to never underestimate the importance of of this particular role. And if you think about 10 years ago, 15 years ago, people always would say, you know, does HR have a seat at the table? Those conversations don't have any more. But I think it's important to talk about the responsibility and impact you have and also ensure that you're always at the center of thinking about what can you do for an individual, as well as how you can scale that for an organizational level. And you've got to make sure you can you can do both. You know you need to be able to still have the door open and allow people to come and talk to you and grieve or whatever it may be. But you also have to have this responsibility around, how am I driving impact for the future of this organization as well? And so you're not just a HR leader. You are a leader. You know you're a business lead, an enterprise leader, and you need to be able to connect the dots and really think about enterprise and and but doing it with a heart and a and a soul at the end of it, I think they're the really important things to remember.
Chris Rainey 38:31
Amazing. Michael, well, I appreciate you taking the time. I'm so happy we managed to have you on the show. Congratulations everything, and this is to the new beginning. So I'm so excited for you and happy for you for what's next and where can people connect with you the best follow your LinkedIn, yeah. LinkedIn, yeah. Well, I wish you all the best until we next week, and super fun have you on the show and appreciate your advice and guidance. Thank you, Chris. Really
Unknown Speaker 38:58
appreciate it. Thanks for all that you do for HR.
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