How to Sustain DEI Commitment Amid Layoffs and Economic Downturns
In this episode, I'm joined by Angela Roseboro who is a Culture Transformation Leader, Tech Executive, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Strategist and Former Chief Diversity Officer at Riot Games, DropBox and Jones Lang LaSalle.
Angela shares valuable insights from her career, discussing the importance of influence, leadership, and resilience in the DEI space. We also touch on the challenges and opportunities of incorporating DEI principles into AI systems.
Episode Highlights
How to Sustain DEI Commitment Amid Layoffs and Economic Downturns
The Role of AI & ChatGPT in Supporting DEI Initiatives
The Evolving Role of the Chief Diversity Officer
How to Overcome Resistance to DEI Initiatives
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Angela 0:00
Sometimes as a DE&I leader and an HR leader, I would say we're like this island of misfit toys expert, so to speak, where you belong everywhere yet nowhere because your role is to help the company be successful through human strategies and human capital companies succeed because of their people not inspiring them.
Chris Rainey 0:30
Hi, everyone, welcome back to the HR leaders podcast. On today's episode, I'm joined by Angela Roseboro, who is a culture transformation leader, tech executive Diversity, Equity and Inclusion strategist and former Chief Diversity Officer at Riot Games, Dropbox and Jones Lang LaSalle. During episode Anders shares how to sustain D commitment amid layoffs and economic downturns, she talks about the role of AI and chat GBT in shaping di initiatives, the evolving role of the chief diversity officer, and how to overcome resistance to D AI initiatives. As always, before we jump into the video, make sure you hit the subscribe button, turn on notification bell and follow on your favourite podcast platform. With that being said, let's jump in. Angela, welcome to the show. How are you?
Angela 1:17
I'm good. How are you?
Chris Rainey 1:18
If I had an award for the best glasses ever featured, you would win they are that I don't even I couldn't even do it justice to describe those glasses to my audience who are just listening. Right now they are fed their statement. Let's just put it that way.
Angela 1:35
I asked my husband this morning, how they look. He's like, they're kind of given the grandma vibes.
Chris Rainey 1:41
It's like, it's like, I don't know how you pull it off. But it's like modern, fresh grandma vibes. I don't know. It's like a combination of young, fresh, but I get I get his point. So anything
Angela 1:53
that has like a little chain, I love it. So I'll bring I'm bringing chain sunglasses back.
Chris Rainey 1:58
How you been? It's been a while since since we last spoke.
Angela 2:03
You know I am rested, I am recharged. And I recognise that everyone that it's a privilege, honestly, to be able to take some time and reflect. And I'm super grateful. So I sit in great in gratitude almost every day. So it's been good. I've been taking up different hobbies, keeping abreast of what's going on in our HR and di worlds and just looking at it from the outside having lots of opinions about it.
Chris Rainey 2:30
Yeah. For context for the audience. How long was your your last role was at Riot Games as chief diversity officer? How long would you therefore I would
Angela 2:39
there was there for four years Wow. And decided that, you know, there was a point where everything was going on in the US with George Floyd and the pandemic. And I remember telling the company it was this hashtag, you need a minute, because I was so concerned about the mental health of our employees. And then I recognise I need a minute. And I took the minute and as scary as that venture was I'm here, what six months later and say it was probably one of the best decisions that I could have made for my mental health, my physical health, my relationships. And so it's been a really scary but yet peaceful time.
Chris Rainey 3:22
Yeah, to delve into a little bit more, because I often talk about, you know, we, we often talk about the HR leaders and you know, who do they go to when they're struggling? Right. And I think that's something that they share in common with the DEI leaders like yourself,
Angela 3:36
sometimes as a DI leader, and an HR leader, I would say we're like this island of misfit toys, expert, so to speak, where you are trying you don't you belong everywhere, yet nowhere. Because your role is to help the company be successful through human strategies and human capital. And it starts with this premise that companies and I truly believe this companies succeed because of their people, not in spite of them. But I also think that people somehow gets caught up in the mix of almost commoditized in a way and so we have the the role and the responsibility to make sure that every day when you come into our offices, you choose us because of how are you know, you know, because of the total employee lifecycle. And when you're doing that sometimes you're on the opposite spectrum of other opinions. And so and why we touch everything. I think we sometimes think that HR is more operational and I think HR is transformational. I think your human capital is makes your company transformational, and not relegated to the tasks like operational things like how do you do but benefits and how you do that? It's really around culture. We are really the culture stewards, and that's a awesome opportunity and a heavy burden. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 4:55
and something you said to me last time, which still stuck with me, I can't give an exact word so You tell me how you mentioned it. But you said when the DNI initiatives are going badly, if DNI is for everyone goes to DNI what's happening? But when they're going great, the business done well. And it's to do so you said enemy.
Angela 5:18
Kind of behind, like we're not we the thing about di is like, you're not the owners of things, you're the influencer. So my ability to influence you to do a different tactic or different operation is where my is where I think my biggest bang is the fact that I'm also an HR professional, I cannot only visualise it, I can build it. My job is to convince the TA team and to help work the TA team to have strategies to increase representation. And so if it doesn't happen, then it's like, well, gee, I didn't do his job. But if it does have the TA did a great job. And so when we talk about di leaders who feel like they're undervalued things that we experience.
Chris Rainey 5:57
Yeah, no, it's interesting, right? And you can, you can smile about it now. On the other side, but obviously, I'm sure you know, at the time, it doesn't feel so great. What have been your observations over the last six to 12 months in the space? Because we'll come from when we last spoke to now boy has the world change again? Yeah, again,
Angela 6:15
I don't think I think di has ebbs and flows. It's to be honest. And it's and I think, because we have we have thought about it more performatively versus strategically, you're reacting to events versus saying this is part of our business. And our business is to innovate, create, and if you see D AI as something as an opportunity to help you do that, those are companies that are going to understand this as a long term strategy. If you see it as something is, something's happened, we need to fix it, then it's going to be short lived short term, and you'll go back to where you were. And I think that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing there was a whole bunch of hiring with Di Di professionals. Some were coming from across the organisation that didn't have the craft, quite honestly, some were opportunistically some great opportunities for some leaders to really do some work. And there was all of this commitment to it. And you started to you start to see it Wayne, it takes I'd say it takes three years for where a company says it wants to be in this space, to where it actually committed to wanting to be at the end. I think what you're seeing now is, okay, I think we've gotten past this, maybe we can pull back. And I don't think this is something where you can pull back. Now honestly, Chris, I look when I did this 30 years ago, I really thought this job would be a short term stint, I was going back into HR, I started because the concept of this is so easy for me it is, hey, you have great people with different perspectives. If you allow them to unleash their superpowers, you're a better company because of it. You can know your customers better, you know, your employees better, you know your product better. And that's such a simple concept then construct for us to dive into. And yet 30 years later, and then I had kids who had a very different experience in the world than I did. So they had very diverse friends. I only I didn't have that they had that. And so we would just naturally the evolution of this, you would get it and to see that we're still you know, 30 years later, having these conversations, somewhat sad to me, but also I think, somewhat if I look no kind of retrospectively, we never saw this as a business imperative. And we have to see it is that yeah, is a marketing strategy. As you do an IT strategy. This has to be seen as a business imperative.
Chris Rainey 8:47
What advice would you give to people then about how they can sustain the commitments? You know, amid the layoffs amid economic downturns?
Angela 8:55
I think that, you know, there's businesses you have to make as a business, right. So I do think that you have to do what's great best for the business. I think that at least from a DI perspective, that is your, for you to get out of this downturn, you're going to have to be innovative, you're going to have to still think about how you bring the best people to the table, and how you not only bring them in, but you keep them. And so I think it's very short sighted to say, Okay, we're going through this cycle, we're going to lay off the DI folks, only to come back and say, Oh, something else happens. We're gonna bring people back. I think it does talk about commitment. And I tell us all the time, there's a difference between supportive leadership and committed leadership. And most are supportive, supportive, like, oh, yeah, if you do that we're behind you. committed leadership is this is what I'm going to do. This is my priority. This is how I'm going to help this. This how I see how people help the company attain its goals, and I think we lose sight of that, quite honestly.
Chris Rainey 10:00
How'd you identify which one of those buckets a leader sits in,
Angela 10:04
I think most sit in support, I love to see when a CEO stands up in front and talk about diversity, from their own perspective from their own experience, and stand in front of it. And I think that's why I think it's so important that these roles report into the CEO, because they have to be the partnership. And I just say to my CEO, if you can't hear me, and I can't hear you, then I think we're done. Because we have to be able to hear each other, you have to be able to hear that perspective. And so I'm always encouraged when I see a CEO stands up and commit, I was on a panel once and it was a it was CEOs. And me, I don't know how I got on this panel, but it wholesales and myself, and we were talking about diversity. And I said, everyone in this room could change. And we could we could we could we could fix this in the next 10 years. If each of you, after this panel, commit to at saying that I'm going to have a woman or a person of colour on my succession plan. You change the landscape. And we know that what I do know is that representation matters and diversity because diversity. And so if the CEOs would actually say I'm committed to this, and I'm going to definitely have I'm going to look for my best talent. And I'm going to ensure that in the mix as a woman and a person of colour. I think we change it. The fact that we have what we have more women CEOs and we've ever had, but still the number is low considering how many women are in workplaces. Do that right? So
Chris Rainey 11:37
yeah. What are your thoughts on sort of the recent backlash around the Work Agenda and sort of navigating the resistance that we're seeing towards DNI initiatives?
Angela 11:47
We're politicising human capital, which I think is just not the right way to talk about it. And I think when we get away from the fact that this is a business decision, and then we started to bring it in, and we start to really go into the fact that, oh, this is about how I feel about a person or whatever, and I think it's kind of muddies why we're doing it. I think the backlash from my perspective, we haven't done enough. I'm a person who's impacted by that. And from others perspective, we talked about it too much. And I don't think you can ever talk about how you create great talent strategies too much. I think that is the basis of your business. So the backlash is the political side of it, the backlash, we're taking an agenda that was really meant, honestly, to allow you to hire the best talent that's available, and we've made it a political conversation. And we shouldn't have done that. How do we get back to this to the essence of it, the essence of it is how do you attach it to your business, if you don't have great people, your business will not be successful. If you don't have great people with different perspectives and different a with different ways to help you innovate, you won't be successful. And I think innovation comes from every place in your organisation, and we need to be having that conversation. Instead, we're having conversations about who's getting advantages and who isn't. I've always said diversity. And inclusion is not about creating advantages. For some people. It's about removing barriers, so that we're all successful. And I think about it as I want everyone to be successful. And I have a little bit analogy about how I think about it. I watched this movie for you to I don't know if you've heard of it, but it was about Jackie Robinson, and Branch Rickey, he did a couple of things. He knew that black people were going to watch baseball, the Negro League was very popular, he wanted that income that money. And he wanted to integrate, and he wants to have the best player. So he brings in Jackie Robinson, but he doesn't just bring in Jackie Ross and say, Hey, go play. He was his mentor, his sponsor, he encouraged him. And at the end of that they won the World Series. Jackie Robinson is Rookie of the Year. That is, to me the best example of how this works in a way that you see talent. You understand the business need, you support that talent, and how it comes out the and you win in the end,
Chris Rainey 14:09
and the business won. They made a lot more money.
Angela 14:16
Yeah, and they're not exclusive. So I think we have to get back to that fundamental why why talent matters. You got anything else? Like why talent matters?
Chris Rainey 14:25
Yeah, we're not having conversations around the right thing. Right. How have you seen the role of the chief diversity officer evolve? And where do you think he's going to head in the future?
Angela 14:36
I asked people a lot because you know why we do this work? Why did we choose? It's a hard job and anyone who's in it knows how hard it is. You are the disrupter. You are the change agent. If some people are comfortable where they are and you're trying to push someone, you try to push it forward. And I think we do it because we build Even the impact that it has, we believe in the business case we believe in. You know, I know for me it was when I saw people be successful. That was it. For me, the evolution of this, I think is good. You know, I knew, probably two years ago, the DI role was in trouble. And I think it's because the people who've been doing it for a long time, have gotten fatigued. I think the people who are coming into it really have to have an understanding of what they're trying to do. And I think it's going to, we're going to have to rectify and kind of aligned with what this role is. And I don't think companies know what they want to do when they when they when they bring in a chief diversity officers are like, Oh, we should do it, because x company is doing it. And I think if companies spend more time saying, I have a client right now that wants to have a chief diversity officer, and I'm like, why? They can't answer you can't answer the question, though. Because everyone else has. Yeah, yeah. Or what expect? What does success look like in this role? And they're like, I don't know. And would you do that with any other role? Nope. If I'm an eight my role, like why you need to have a day job, they can tell me three like this might be a chief people officer role. You also wanted a diversity role. All we want to do the right is to do the right thing. Sometimes, or we want to be competitive, but they haven't really stood in the why. And I think that's, you know, it's because, you know, something happened, and they feel like they need it. People have complained, I remember I was in a role. And the CEO said to me, what your role is to make sure the ergs are happy. Like, that's why you and I that was not what I thought my role was, even though I meant of what the role is, I think I'm here to help you build business. Yeah. expectation was, I want to hear from the ERG why Scott and I, and until we until us is chief diversity officers asked why you need this role. And be and help me know and help them build that I think you should use consultants, like if it's just to be a crisis manager, then get a consultant don't get a chief diversity officer, because it's painful to go into a role where you want to have impact only to be sidelined and not be able to have the impact that the company thought it wanted.
Chris Rainey 17:23
Yeah. And it's good, good questions, write, note them down. Everyone, those questions will tell you immediately whether you know, right there, you're destined to fail, you know, if that's if that's the response that you're getting, or lack of response is actually, lack of responses tell you even more than a response.
Angela 17:42
I had a person that they have a role open. And they were saying that this the DI role report, the HR role with HR function was terrible. And I'm like, so why don't you put the DI person in the role, fix the HR function? So I think, again, that goes back to structure, it goes back to what people expect of this role. And I think people should be, they should be clear. Otherwise, you find yourself where we are now, where will do we really need that role? Do we need that level of a role? Do we need a chief because those are the conversations that I'm having now? Like, do we need that role? Could it be a lower role? We don't want to get rid of it. But we don't really know what to do with it. We don't have a problem right now, why should we do anything? And I think we have that sort of short term thinking, the DI person is destined to fail.
Chris Rainey 18:26
What have you learned now being on the other side as a as a as an advisor and a consultant to DCI leaders that you perhaps didn't see, when you're on the other side? When you're in the work? I was
Angela 18:36
in this at this conference? And they were talking about it was the title of the conference was how di leaders are change are ruining the culture, which was very hard.
Chris Rainey 18:44
Whoa, that's, that's
Angela 18:49
here, and I'm going and what I'm finding is that, and this is the tension, I think that can sometimes happen between the eighth the HR function and the DI function. And when they kind of report into each other. If it works, it works great, right? I think it could be a great partnership. If it doesn't, I think what I've learned is, as a DI leader, we expect the HR folks to know dei principles. So we go in, there's an expectation that your automated that the HR folks are already with us, and what we haven't done, you know, so we start talking to the business right away. I think we need to start talking to our we need to have a really tight alignment with our HR folks right away. And that alignment, that partnership should be super strong before you go out to the business. Otherwise, you go to an HR, I'll talk to an HR person, they'll say, Hey, this is going on, like oh, well, you go over there. We're working over here and even though you're reporting to each other, it's like two different functions. Yeah. And you're not in line. And I think that that structure either has to work or you have to move dir I think that's why you hear a lot of di folks say we should report the CEO because we do touch a lot of things you So I'm seeing that I'm also coaching a lot of new di leaders, who may have the passion and the commitment, but may not have the consulting skills may not have the how do I interact with leadership skills? And I'm coaching them on how to have conversations with leaders to influence. So yeah, yep, how to influence. And I think that how to have be resilient. Because it's not just a, you know, I have a lot of folks who came into dei that came from different parts of the organisation, and you have to see this as a craft. So I'm seeing that not only do the people who are committed to and passionate, they have to learn their craft, but that the business doesn't see it as a craft, which is the the thing that talked about earlier, and I had a meeting with the leader and I, and they were saying, oh, you should hire this person. They're very committed to Di. And I said, Would you I said, I want you know what, I think I should be the CFO, and he goes, why?
Chris Rainey 21:04
It's such a good point you're passionate about.
Angela 21:08
And I love money. So you should make the CFO like, that's just a ridiculous notion. This role, but you got to have you have to have craft to be a CFO. And so we laughed about it. But it was like, Yeah, I should be the CFO because I'm passionate about numbers. And so I think that's what I'm seeing now.
Chris Rainey 21:26
So interesting. I see that a lot as well with some of the DI leaders die interview, like not to say not doing a great job, but I can tell the difference between the ones that are really business focused, and looking for that lens, as opposed to others that will put in that role, because there was identified by the business who someone who had the passion. And it's very, very clear, when I'm having a conversation, who's who, even with my limited experience of what I do, I'm like, Oh, my, okay, that's where you are right now. as well. So interesting. There's been a lot of talk about AI chat, DBT, and other things like that. How do you see that? The role of that in DNI initiatives and moving forward?
Angela 22:08
I've been thinking about that so much. And I it's almost like the Terminator, if you've watched the Terminator, like, like, this is this loop? Who's building AI systems? How are you know, how are who's in there helping doing that coding is going to be super, super important. Yeah. You know, kind of, I'm doing this thing on tick tock where they're doing AI and it looks nothing like I'm like this, like who did that? Who did that coding that was supposed to be able to tell me so I think I don't think it's too late. I do think that we're gonna have to be very cognizant as we're building that those algorithms, how they're coded. And I think that happens when you have diverse perspectives in the
Chris Rainey 22:48
training, right, who's training it? Yeah.
Angela 22:52
I love the evolution of it. I'm afraid of it a little bit. Because if it goes wrong, that it just it just perpetuates the micro inequities and aggressions and the biases. And I'm hopeful that there are stop gaps in points where you where people have to relook at their algorithms. When we talk about the AI, so and I love it, though, I think that if it's done well, I think it could be hugely helpful. I just think this is also around anytime a human touches it biases, bias biases. They're inherently Yeah, it's a it's innately there. So the amount of diversity or checkpoints, even if you don't have people coding, check, you don't, this is where I think ERGs become super important, right, where you can get perspectives. And so I think we should always have touch points, check points to make sure that we are doing this in a way that is responsible and inclusive. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 23:50
I agree with everything you said. I think we're where I see the most opportunities is in the hiring process, to using AI generative AI to make sure everyone has an equal opportunity, but also sort of the candidate experience
Angela 24:03
to place a total experience and it's also about how you engage this where inclusion comes in how you are listening, when people are giving you feedback, and I think about different examples where I don't know if you remember the h&m example where they had the little black boy with the it was about maybe four years ago. So it was a little it was like it was it was a little it was child models, and they were different ones had different sweatshirts on. And they had a black way and it says the coolest monkey in the jungle.
Chris Rainey 24:35
Oh, no, I didn't. And you're like,
Angela 24:37
has that? Like how
Chris Rainey 24:38
no no one saw that like no like.
Angela 24:43
And I think that there are three ways that happens when you have no diversity in the room. When you have diversity in the room and they try to
Chris Rainey 24:51
or they're too scared to speak up because you don't have that culture. That psychological safety. Yeah, right. Nobody wants that. I guarantee you. There was someone that saw that that they did
Angela 25:00
speak up and they're like, no, no, you don't know what you're talking about. Or they were so exhausted. They're like, alright, you know, they've I call it quits day like, you know, you go through that, see how that works?
Chris Rainey 25:11
Right? Good luck.
Angela 25:14
Like those types of things should never happen if you have the right perspectives in the room and they're allowed to be a consideration.
Chris Rainey 25:21
What are your thoughts on I'm seeing a lot of conversations around intersectionality of sustainability, purpose and di, sort of thing, I'm seeing a lot of di leaders talking about sustainability, which wasn't something I really heard a conversation being had a couple of years ago, if that makes sense.
Angela 25:39
I think you're trying to put too much into a conversation that you haven't even really advanced on on any of them. So to kind of put them all together at this point, I think deludes could kind of dilute or, you know, lessen what impact you're trying to have. Because now you're trying to make it this bigger thing. And sustainability, and I have been hearing about this, and how companies are putting it as part of their shareholders, their shareholder reports, I think each are important in their own right, putting them together. Honestly, I don't understand what the goal is there. It's like you're having three conversations in one and not giving the giving those conversations, the level of Converse level of discussion that each one of them needs, right.
Chris Rainey 26:28
What would you say is this quite big question, but what would you say is the biggest challenge that you had to overcome in your career
Angela 26:33
working on something I'm always very cognizant of? I want to get to the right answer. I love math in that way. And I think sometimes in my effort of doing right, I lose people along the way. So that know, that notion of how to get people to follow and inspire versus this is the right answer. I learned that very early on in my career where I had the right answer. And because of I was so focused on being right, I didn't bring people with me, the company lost out, I lost out there, you know, I was in the end, I was right about it. But I wasn't able to change and help the company, I lost all credibility. And then I that's what I thought, the importance of influence the, the importance of, you can't do things in a vacuum, particularly when you're doing when you're in HR. And when you are in di because it could be the right thing. So I think that's something that I learned early on that influence was a key component to being a leader,
Chris Rainey 27:36
it's such an important lesson, because when I speak to your, your peers, they always say to me, Chris, I spend, don't try and make change to quickly they spend the first maybe six months to a year, just understanding the business, building those relationships, building the trust with those stakeholders, and then only then start to try and influence and lead change as opposed to going in, this is what we're gonna do, I bet you know how we're going to do it. And we'll start and everyone puts their walls up. And it just fails that way, and many people have learned the hard way, including me. That's not the way you do things.
Angela 28:11
I also think for me it is where I'm at in this space is what I was doing this work early on, I always tried to say I have to say inclusion except for. And so my own personal identity, I would try to keep out of conversations like so I never talked about being a my experience as a woman as a black woman. The older I get, and I also think when you're young in your career, you're trying to people are trying to mould you into things. And I had a mentor, who I was telling him how people didn't hear me in meetings. And he's like this CEO, he goes, will speak louder, like Well, no, this is not about me speaking louder. This is about people not hearing me. And so I used to try to you know, assimilate more. It just felt like a suit that was too tight. And so I have my own story, my own path. I am a disrupter. And it took a long time for me to embrace that and say, like it as a disrupter, you're going to fit in certain places, you're not going to fit in certain places, and you got to be okay with that. You have to be okay, that when I tell that truth, that everyone's not going to want to hear it. Do I not say do I say it to be true to myself? I have to say so I think what I will say to people, is that I have to be I this whole notion of impostor syndrome. I try to I don't like people to claim it. Because I think it just like don't claim that like you. There may be people who have more experience than I have been there longer. But my biggest advantage in my currency is my perspective. And don't lose that. And have the courage to push through and have the conversation because you'll get to the other side, like I'm in my 50s And like, I got to the other side, and sometimes I got hurt. Sometimes it was like yes, time to go and I had to let it go. But in each of those things, I learned something so I learned how to be better. are at at those things. And I also learned what my boundaries were, yes. And who I was. And so if it doesn't fit, sometimes things don't work out and it doesn't fit. But I feel very good about every move that I've made. I've done it with integrity. And I've kept who I was
Chris Rainey 30:16
so important, right? Because part of that is, that's where the growth happens. That's where the learning happens. That's where we haven't mentioned it was one of our mantras is seek discomfort doesn't sound very positive to people. What do you mean to seek discomfort, because that's where the magic happens. That's where the growth happens. And if you're always trying to conform, and fit into a specific narrative, or please people, then you ain't gonna get far in life. I'm telling you, all you will, but you'll be very miserable along the way, and you won't feel fulfilled, you won't feel like you're making an impact, you definitely won't feel like a disrupter along the way, and yeah, I think that's amazing advice. I was going to ask you for a piece of advice, but that was a pretty good piece of buying advice. Anything, anything else you'd give?
Angela 31:04
If you're afraid do it anyway. Like, that's my, that's my like, if you're afraid, and we just had this conversation, do it anyway. It may not work out. But that's okay. Like, I think we're so conditioned that like, we don't want to fail. I don't think I've grown every every to your point. Every place I've grown, I failed. And people asked me to talk about successes. And I'm like him. Yeah, I think that's great. But you should see my failures, you see my battle scars, because that's where yeah, you know, you who you are, you found out what you made up, you know that you're going to get through it. And so I look back on this and said, in each of those things, I live through it. And I live my own truth in my own purpose. I think like imposter syndrome is a purpose killer, because like, I was telling you this earlier, that you get this idea in your head that I can do it and then five negative thoughts to Oh, no, you just talk us out of stuff all the time. All the time, do it anyway. And you're gonna learn it may be uncomfortable to your point, but you're going to learn so much and you're going to live through it right? You're going to be okay,
Chris Rainey 32:06
listen, I could talk to you forever. I absolutely love it. Love chatting with you. And I'm really happy for you genuinely, you know, and they're super excited for whatever's next and whatever, whatever. Keep us up to date, let us know.
Angela 32:20
But typically very scary, like, but I would do it anyway.
Chris Rainey 32:23
Yeah. And where can people connect with you if they want to reach out? I'm on
Angela 32:27
LinkedIn, you'll hear you and I will talk about balance scars on LinkedIn. saw me on Twitter, my website will be up pretty soon will be the rosebrook group.com look for that.
Chris Rainey 32:36
And for everyone listening all of those links will be below so wherever you're listening or watching right now all of the links will be in the description. So make sure you do that. Go around your lab apart from that I wish you all the best. And I look forward to doing it against you. Thanks so much.
Angela 32:48
Workers do thank you so much.
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