5 Steps to Data-Driven DEI

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In this episode we are joined by Randal Pinkett, entrepreneur, speaker, author, Chairman and CEO at BCT Partners to discuss 5 Steps to Data-Driven DEI

Timestamps:
00:00 Intro

08:03 Randal’s process in writing the book.

12:45 Step 0 DEI Incentives: What’s your motivation for pursuing DEI?

14:41 STEP 1: DEI Inventory for Organizations—Seek Understanding

20:39 STEP 2: DEI Imperatives—Determine Priorities

26:43 STEP 3: DEI Insights—Identify "What Works"

33:43 STEP 4: DEI Initiatives—Take Action

39:43 STEP 5: DEI Impact—Evaluate Results

42:16 How to measure the success of Data Driven DEI

45:47 Crucial lesson to take away from the book

Recommended Resources

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📖 Grab a copy of Data-Driven DEI

Learn how to cultivate more future-minded leadership across your entire organization in the full Winter Insights Report from BetterUp Labs.

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Chris Rainey 0:00
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the HR leaders podcast. On today's episode, I'm joined by one of the world's leading voices in di the one and only Randall Pinkett, who's an entrepreneur, Speaker offer chairman and CEO at BCC partners. Today we're gonna be talking about his new book data driven di which gives people and organisations the necessary tools and metrics to create lasting impact. During episode Randall shares the data driven dei five step process to offers a step by step guide, and the tools and metrics that you need to measure, analyse and improve diversity, equity and inclusion. As always, before we jump into the video, make sure you hit the subscribe button, turn on notification bell and follow on your favourite podcast platform. But that being said, let's jump in. Randall Welcome to the show. How are you my friend? Doing well Chris I'm excited to be here and thanks for the invitation left reciate looking sharp as always, I said before we went live I was like whenever I see you I feel underdressed.
Randal Pinkett 2:55
So I started a Diversity Equity and Inclusion training company when I was 21. Okay. When you told me before that though, what what inspired what what happened that you were like, Okay, I'm starting this company. Take it even further back. Yeah, so I was the kid who grew up selling candy at the school, selling lemonade in the neighbourhood. I tried to sell my toys to other kids.
Chris Rainey 0:59
pocket square to tie I'm gonna catch you slipping one day one. One day I'm gonna catch you on. Oh
Randal Pinkett 1:08
well, they joke that I do house cleaning in a free piece suit. This there's some truth to that.
Chris Rainey 1:15
I can imagine you would have like That's hilarious. Oh, important thing was tell me some of those CDs behind you like you what you got what you got going on there. Well, what else albums you got? Right there. Can't see it. That's Michael Jackson Thriller album.
Randal Pinkett 1:39
Yeah, we some public enemies and Whitney Houston. We got some classics.
Chris Rainey 1:44
Back here in class. These younger generation don't know about CDs.
Randal Pinkett 1:49
Yes, that's Public Enemy. Oh, wow.
Chris Rainey 1:51
Yeah, originals. I love it. Like, it's funny because I feel like when Robin grows up my daughter, she's not even gonna know what a CD is. She? She gave me like a CD. Well, what do you it's a relic is this is a relative, but it's cool to keep it for nostalgia, though. Like to have it put the physical action of opening the case. Putting in the CD. You know, like there's some nostalgia there even like some of the old albums I got. I got like, even like the books that were come in the CD case. Booklets you know, they would create in there was some artwork and stuff like that. There was a lot of time put into those.
Randal Pinkett 2:32
Yeah, exactly. It was part of the artistry. Exactly. The creativity, the packaging. It's a throwback to my very first entrepreneurial venture. I sold CDs out of my dormitory in college. Oh way. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 2:47
Nice. Yeah. Well, at that point, tell everyone a little bit more about you personally, and just sort of the journey to where we are now.
Randal Pinkett 3:25
Yeah, and my mom found out and said, Wait a second. I bought the toys. How are you selling the toys? She said, if you're gonna sell the toys, give me a cut. And I said, Mom, you can get a cut to sit and guess what son? So what mom's the toy store is shut down. No more toys being sold. So I had this entrepreneurial spirit growing up. I get to college at Rutgers University in New Jersey, and a class class mate and childhood friend named Wayne Abbott, who was two years ahead of me. He was a senior I was a sophomore. He started a company selling T shirts. And I'd never seen someone who looked like me my age, running a business. And I reflected back on all those years growing up selling candy lemonade toys, and said if he can do it, why can't I do it? So I lined up my three roommates, Jeff Robinson, Dallas Grundy, Lawrence Hebert? Well, two were classmates. One was my roommate. And I said, we should start a business just like Wayne. And they said, What are we gonna do? I said, Well, I love music. Let's sell C compact this. And we use the proceeds from selling those CDs to pay for us to do outreach to inner city youth to encourage them to go to college. So we were out speaking to these young, black and brown youth about going to college and then we realised, Chris, that we could get paid for those presentations. And then that he
Chris Rainey 5:00
Oh, wow. Okay, so that really is the journey and how, yeah, exactly.
Randal Pinkett 5:03
And then we got them. And then corporations were asking us to come and train their new hires on how they could navigate the world of corporate America. And then we train their managers on how to mentor. Their their new hires, and there's summer interns. And we didn't call it Di. But at the end of the day, it was all about di it was about how to teach these managers to manage diversity. And that's how we got into diversity, equity and inclusion.
Chris Rainey 5:31
Crazy. So what did you actually what were you actually studying just like your RC?
Randal Pinkett 5:35
So we were all engineers, by training. completely unexpected. And now, my firm BCT partners, I should mention, just to end the story, the four of us who started at 21, and 20, are 52 and 51. We've been together for 31 years, in 31 years. And not only are we still together, Chris, we still get along.
Chris Rainey 5:58
I know about that possibly my co founders, my best friend I know about the hard times. Because we said that in a recent episode, we did like that. We did a podcast together kind of just celebrating the studio. And we had a question to each other what you're most proud of? And both of our answers was that we're still friends. Yes. And forget about the money. Forget about the success. Like that's what I'm most proud of is that we're still friends to this day. But I love that man, that story.
Randal Pinkett 6:28
I mean, it's like a family owned business among four brothers. Yeah. And we've we've married our technology, engineering, data science backgrounds, with diversity, equity and inclusion at our firm BCT partners. In other words, what differentiates us, among other things, is this combination of artificial intelligence, machine learning, virtual reality, information technology, and diversity, equity and inclusion. It's a rare combination you find
Chris Rainey 6:59
and is what's most needed right now in the AI space. And that kind of leads us to the book behind you, data driven dia, this all makes sense now with what you studied now, because now I'm glad I'm glad I asked this question, because it's all it's all come together now. It makes sense. So yeah, the new book data driven di, I'm sure how long was that in the works? I'm sure it was in the works for a while.
Randal Pinkett 7:22
Yeah, yeah, no. It is the combination in many ways of the work we've been doing. And I'll read you from the dedication, because it says data driven di is a direct result of the mission and vision we set out to accomplish when we began our social entrepreneurship journey more than three decades ago, like it is dedicated to our president Lawrence Hibbert, who was assigned as my little brother when we were in college, randomly assigned as my little brother. And Dallas was randomly assigned as Jeffrey's little brothers who had two big brothers, mentoring two younger brothers who came in and started the business selling CDs doing di and now 30 years later, we're together so so it's so it's been 30 years in the making, arguably, but the writing it took me two years in the pandemic, I produced a video on YouTube called the seven myths of racial equity. And a acquisitions editor Mike Campbell at Wiley reached out and said, Would you consider writing a book about that topic? He later learned about my background and our work and BCT and said, what you got to do in data science and Dei, ology, and belonging? He said, I got a better idea. So what's the idea Mikey, so I think you should do data driven Dei. And that same day, I went online to get the domain data
Chris Rainey 8:51
for everyone listening it over the.com, which I couldn't believe he even got it. You know, sometimes, like, I'm not a religious person, but I do believe in the universe, like what you put out there comes back to you. And I feel like everything you just said, just feels like it was meant to be him seeing that pose him reaching out to you, their mentor, ship, your background in engineering, merging with Dei, you know, you can't make this stuff up. as well. And I'm so happy that you're literally living your purpose. You know, every day in every shape of it.
Randal Pinkett 9:24
There's a great lyric in a song from the Broadway play Hamilton. And if you know Hamilton story, he connects with this hodgepodge of, of others who transform the trajectory of America. But there's a lyric that says, What are the odds the gods would put us all in one spot? And I think that's a testament to our story. I mean, what are the odds that God would put four black men together in engineering to start AI company? Yeah.
Chris Rainey 9:54
Exactly. And and back then you wouldn't even have been able to see where the AI is now. out. And the way it's in the way it's gone for its own digital transformation. So you couldn't even have, you didn't even know that we'd be where we are now, right? Around three kids to dei and HR leaders every day talking about how do we measure the what does success look like? Right? And it's very in its in its infancy. In many ways. That's why when we first spoke, I was like, This is so timely, that you've de brought this book out, because it's kind of what I'm hearing from everyone right now, as well. What do you want to stop, man? Where do you want to jump off because there's so much to get into?
Randal Pinkett 10:31
Well, I'll start here, and you'll appreciate this. This Chris. One of the opening messages in the book is the following. organisations don't change, people change. And so while the book might be perceived as targeted to those who lead dei for their organization's chief, diversity officers, dei managers, champions, leaders, HR professionals, that's the secondary audience for the book, the primary audience is anyone who wants to use data to drive their personal journey for diverse relationships, inclusive behaviour, and equitable practices. That's the primary audience. That was the other gift Mike gave me. So I challenge you to not just target dei leaders, HR leaders, but the target people who want to embrace these principles. And that means it's really two books in one. It's a personal track and an organisational track.
Chris Rainey 11:36
I love that. I think that's so important. I say that about HR as well, because this isn't an HR issue, or a D issue. This isn't everyone. So so it's I'm glad that you did that and had that lens. And I'm glad that you made made that distinction. Let's, I love the fact that you kind of broke this down into the five step process in the book. So let's kind of delve into the first one and talk about di inventory. Can we can we start there? Can you start off there? And then we can go for?
Randal Pinkett 12:05
Absolutely. So there's a step zero. Okay, that leads right into step one. Okay, great. Step zero is dei incentives. What's your motivation? For pursuing di caring about di What are your values on this topic? What's the self respect, self reflection and introspection you can do to clarify why this journey is important to you intrinsically, meaning it's a part of who you are, or extrinsically. It's in your performance evaluation, it's in your bonus structure. Who knows? But that leads you on to Step one, di inventory. And in listeners, well, why is that?
Chris Rainey 12:45
First of all, so important before you get in set? One? Why is that first part so important?
Randal Pinkett 12:50
Because if you don't take the time to clarify why it matters, it will not sustain itself for any person, or for any organisation. And, and it is that process. And the product of clarification, meaning asking the deeper questions and then capturing on paper, the value of your di values, your di mission and your di vision. And in the book, you will find my personal dei mission and vision that I've clarified from my own journey. And the reason why it's step zero, perhaps obviously now, is because you may or may not revisit that step, but it has to happen at least once. Yeah, to enter into the cycle that we're about to discuss.
Chris Rainey 13:33
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned because I feel like that's the part that companies make mistake. Make a mistake. Don't even know why. Like, yeah, and I feel like, if you don't start there, then you don't know where you're going away, you know. So I just wanted to that's why I wanted you to clarify.
Randal Pinkett 13:48
If you don't know where you're going any road will get you there.
Chris Rainey 13:51
Yeah, oh, you can't hit a target. You can't see it right. All right. So step step one,
Randal Pinkett 14:00
step one, and listeners will notice the alliteration on the letter i di incentives, next di inventory. And that is performing an assessment to know where you're going, you got to know where you are. So you have to conduct for people. You have to assess your preferences and your competencies, preferences, the things that you're naturally inclined to do. It's neither good nor bad, it is what it is. But a preference can lead to a blind spot, if I prefer to hang around men, that I might overlook a woman for a leadership position. And my competences is a value judgement the thing that you do well or you don't do well. Are you good at managing people who are different than you? Do you demonstrate inclusive behaviours? Are you an inclusive leader, and you embrace the competencies of what it means to be an inclusive leader? Those are competencies. For organisations, it's the four P's. You got to assess your people. You got to test your policies, guys as your practices. You got to benchmark your proof. formance I keep it simple, Chris. So for people, it's preferences and competencies for organisations. It's the four P's people process, practice performance. And that's your di inventory to get a baseline and a profile of where you are.
Chris Rainey 15:15
How does that work? Typically, what's the most effective way? Do you have someone come into that for you? Do you doubt yourself? How does that work?
Randal Pinkett 15:23
Good question. So, you know, with with my background, as we'll say, a former academic, you know, I did my doctoral work at MIT. This book has extensive research on tools that you can use to assess your preferences and competencies, and tools that you can use to assess your people, practices, policies, and performance. Now, I would advise any organisation to bring in a professional who administers these tools. But if you have a competent team that can administer surveys and administer interviews and focus groups, you might consider it but end of the day, it's almost always best for a third party in the DEI context, because they'll be seen as a neutral trusted third party. That, if it's done internally, it can take you down a very slippery slope of looking like it's self serving concerns about privacy, confidentiality, and anonymity, the list goes on. So I encourage organisations to consider a professional organisation to come in and do that assessment. And for people, I think you can do it yourself. I think it can do can be DIY.
Chris Rainey 16:36
Okay. Yeah. Trying to ask that. Is that something that you help companies with?
Randal Pinkett 16:40
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Well, in fact, kind of woven into the book is how we do it at BCT. And then, so I lay out the broad strategy of how you accomplish these things. And then I'll give you a specific example of how we do it at BCT.
Chris Rainey 16:52
Great, what would you say are the biggest mistakes that you often see companies make,
Randal Pinkett 16:56
not disclosing the findings broadly, and
Chris Rainey 17:00
crappy and transparent?
Randal Pinkett 17:02
Yeah, and let me talk to your HR folks right now, Chris, we talk to them directly. HR professionals can often be the worst enemy of Dei, because part of the tradition of HR is protecting against risk, and protecting against HR liability, which runs counter to this notion of transparency. And disclosing the results of a dei assessment, which means we have to share the data, we have to distribute the data, we have to be honest about the data. I think about it like truth and reconciliation. If you want to reconcile with your employees, for dei path forward, you have to give them the truth. So to the HR leaders listening, I say to you, we have to strike a healthy balance of scales between legal liability on one side of the scale, and truth and transparency on the other side of the scale. If we want to be we want to give fidelity to a dei journey.
Chris Rainey 18:04
I love that point. And I think everyone listening can relate to that point. But you're the first person I've heard you're impartial, so you can say it out loud. It's great to hear someone say What can HR do events or better support di then while we're on this topic topic,
Randal Pinkett 18:27
I think it's it's it's pushing the envelope on bouncing the very scales that I described, into the extent that we can. We, as HR professionals can be a partner in that transparency across the HR lifecycle is critical, meaning recruitment, development, advancement, and support. And retention, then we have retention, their recruitment, development, advancement, retention, and support. And I think about it very simply, if we can give clarity to in up and out who's coming in, who's moving up, and who's going out, and stratifying and disaggregating that data, by demographics, by location by tenure, by level in the organisation if we can disagree that from an HR perspective, that is significant fuel to the DEI fire, to then strategize on how to address where we have inequities, where we have gaps, we have disparities and etc. So to me, getting those insights and again, being transparent about them, which is not necessarily the tradition of HR that gives dei the partnership they need to do their work.
Chris Rainey 19:49
Love the end up and out. I love that. So the second step number two dei imperatives, write that down for us.
Randal Pinkett 19:58
Yeah, so di imperatives is now asking the question, where do we want to go? What do we want to do? And I am a big fan of a strategic planning model called OG SM. objectives, goals, strategies and measures. Let me deal with just the OG for right now. That's a OG that we deal with the OG
Chris Rainey 20:20
I must say already sounds good already. I feel like you just chose it because it said OG and you get why you chose it.
Randal Pinkett 20:32
I'm drawn to especially our guy who was carrying Public Enemy around a moment ago, like, so Oh, G is objectives and goals. And oh, GSM goes qualitative, quantitative, qualitative, quantitative. So the objective is a qualitative articulation of what you want to accomplish. For a person, I want to be a more inclusive leader. For an organisation, we want to create a more inclusive culture where people feel like they belong. That's a simple statement. But the G is to put a quantifiable goal, G the goal against the objective. So for me, I may say, I'm going to take the intrinsic inclusion inventory that i three, and I want to level from level three to level four, on the i three, that's my goal, I can measure that I go from level three, to level four for an organisation, I'm going to do a culture and climate survey, I'm going to produce an index. For every department and across the organisation. Let's say our index ends up at a six out of 10. Within my goal is to go from a six to a seven in the next 12 months. That's my measurable goal against my objective, and that's dei imperatives, objectives and goals, the OG,
Chris Rainey 21:49
how does a lot of times companies struggle with like, how do they know where to start? What to choose? You know, because there's so many, they get into this position where there's so many things like, where do I start, what to do? What is most important? What advice would you give them when it comes to that?
Randal Pinkett 22:02
Great question. And that's why step one is so important.
Chris Rainey 22:06
I asked her, I was like, sorry,
Randal Pinkett 22:11
you gotta, you gotta crazy because if you skip over step one, which many of our clients want to rush to the objectives and goals? Well, the a good assessment will tell you, where you're doing well, and where you're doing your worst. And there, you want to focus your objectives and goals. So if, for example, I've got black women showing up as the highest with experiencing microaggressions that I have to consider. My objectives and goals must be centred on improving that lived experience. If I'm underrepresented with women, at the executive levels, I've got all white men in my leadership team that I have to consider for my objectives and goals have to be to increase the number of women represented at the executive levels, like the DI inventory, directly feeds into the DI imperatives.
Chris Rainey 23:03
Love that. What you mentioned earlier about some of these initiatives not coming off as self serving or, you know, something that's being done to the employees, what are some what advice would you give in terms of how once you've decided, okay, these are imperatives? What's the best way to communicate? Those to the organisation?
Randal Pinkett 23:22
Yeah, you know, um, you know, I read an article recently in the Harvard Business Review, and it was entitled, What has and has not changed with being a chief diversity officer. And I'm going to tie step one to step five, we'll come back to this, we get to step five, which is di impact. They said that after George Floyd's murder, many chief diversity officers, were arguing the business case for di, you know, what the research says what the numbers say? What the data suggests. But two years later, in 2022, they've shifted the strategy to telling their stories, sharing their values. And so to your question, how do you roll this out, I say to leaders, tell your story. Share your values, because what they found is it is more inviting and more inspiring. There's two more eyes. It's more inviting and more inspiring for people to see a reflection of the journey within you. And that's not to ignore the business case. And that's not casting that aside. Yeah. But there's something there about people connecting into our experiences, that invites them into the journey and inspires them for their own journey that I think is very powerful, as we think about rolling it out so we can share the the findings from the in from the assessment. We know where are we underrepresented and who's not experiencing our culture, but let me tell you about my story and tell you why. Let me tell you what I've learned from working with all of you and this organ like that, to me, is how we roll it out.
Chris Rainey 25:04
Yeah. And that's how you capture people's minds and hearts, right? It's just seeing the seeing a number on a spreadsheet or, you know, a slide deck doesn't evoke emotion. Right, right. When you hear someone's story, that's what really captures people's imaginations. Exactly. And that will never change to your point of what hasn't hasn't changed. Story, no matter. I speak to a lot of people, analytics leaders. And one of the biggest insights that always comes on, like, Chris, that's about all of the technical knowledge, all the thing storytelling. That's the one skill that they and many of them lack, because they're very analytical. They say this is Chris, the biggest thing I've had to develop as a people analytics leader is storytelling. You know, how do I communicate that message? No one wants to see a 50 page slide deck of data. Right? It's a story. What does that mean? I love that. Love that. Where are we? The AI insights? So understanding what strategies have worked in other contexts? Give me an example.
Randal Pinkett 26:03
Yeah, well, this is one of my favourite steps, dei insights. Because what it says is before you decide what you're going to do, which again, folks rush to say, well, what are we going to do before you get to what you're going to do? Look to see what's worked for somebody else, or for some other organisation. So for example, we've rolled out virtual reality, we have a whole series of immersions, called through my eyes. You know, for years, we've been talking in detail in HR about people seeing the world through somebody else's eyes. Well, virtual reality gives you the opportunity to do exactly that. So you would want to research the likes of virtual reality as a potential tool that's worked for others that might work for you. We know employee resource groups have worked for others, it might work for you, we know tying compensation. But the objectives and goals that you've established has worked for others, it might work for you, let's say it more simply don't reinvent the wheel. If somebody has a wheel that's working, well, then let's, let's look at that wheel. And maybe we should adopt the DI insights, says, pause for the cause. Look to see what's worked for other people and organisations and then to step four. Now let's decide what we're going to do
Chris Rainey 27:17
about that pause for the cause. For that one, how do you know, on that point, no, no, not that there's not just because it worked for someone else doesn't mean it's necessarily going to work for your company. How do you decide and understand whether it would work in your context? Does that make sense?
Randal Pinkett 27:36
Yeah, yeah, I often say that. Best practices, proven practices, promising practices should inform what you do, but not define what you do. So you have to then go back to your assessment, understand your culture, understand your climate, understand your what you're doing well, and what you're not doing well. And then you got to make some some judgement calls of what we're going. And I think of this cycle, as a series of experiments, meaning you don't have to necessarily, I'd rather that you do something, then to continue analysing
Chris Rainey 28:11
and do nothing. You do nothing. Now, this is for analysis, paralysis?
Randal Pinkett 28:17
Paralysis? Yes. Yeah. So So roll something out. And then let's learn and see what worked and what didn't work. So all that to say, do the homework and do the due diligence, but then make some make the call for what we're going to attempt to do for our organisation. And then let's see what works and what doesn't work.
Chris Rainey 28:36
So you can grab like the, what is the immersive VR experience? What do you call it? Again? You said, Oh, my eyes through my eyes. Love that. Love that. So you could choose a small population of leaders in your business? Right, roll that out? All right. touch upon that a little bit. I've heard a lot about this. I spoke to a couple of leaders that have employment and this and this, it has been groundbreaking for them. Could you share some stories around that? Because I think it's fascinating.
Randal Pinkett 29:02
Yeah, and, and I would encourage your listeners, if you go to data driven di.com I have inventoried several promising and proven practices for people and for organisations, said differently, Chris, the publisher said, there's too much content, get it, get it out of the book. So I put it on the website. But I have research on the website, on what we've learned about the power of virtual reality, higher retention rates, people experiencing what's called neuro motor sinking neuro motor sinking, which is, you begin to feel what the person felt in the virtual environment, mitigating bias with sustained mitigation from virtual reality experiences. And so we have a library of experience. We have a we have a immersion where you're In a budget meeting, I know that sounds exciting a budget meetings, but you're in a budget meeting, and you're seeing microaggressions fly around the room, and you're the you're the recipient of the microaggressions, we have an immersion with a pregnant black woman going into the hospital to meet with her doctor and the nurse and experiencing bias and how she's not being heard. They're not being responsive to her needs, and we can put you in their shoes to see that scene. Literally through their eyes, you don't see yourself you see your hands, if you look down, you see your lap, and you see the other characters in the immersion and is proven to be enormously effective. For us, we have one other solution called the inclusion habit. It's like NuMe for inclusive behaviours new and will coach you to nutrition. The inclusion habit will coach you to inclusive behaviours, it gives you daily micro commitments that you can embrace simple things to do, that research has shown leads to more inclusive behaviours, we have a plethora of examples just like that.
Chris Rainey 31:03
Yeah, I felt like he's like taking the storytelling to the next level. Because you can do things like unconscious bias training, which some some companies have had success, some, you know, some are sceptical, but then being in that person's shoes, seeing through their eyes, right? And the feeling, that's that doesn't leave, you know, right? If you think about memories in life or times in your life, where you do, what you can remember vividly, vividly is because you had a feeling connected to that moment, if that makes sense. That's, that's, like, ingrained in us. That's where I think VR is so fascinating. And I was going to ask you about some examples. But you gave some amazing examples of, of what that looks like, as well. So fascinating. And how, obviously, it's VR. But like, when you go into companies, obviously, you know, there's only so many VR headsets you can have but how do you? How do you scale that in companies?
Randal Pinkett 31:54
You're gonna love it. Chris is gonna love this. we pivoted in the pandemic. Before COVID-19, we were doing full blown headsets. In COVID, we re engineered the solution where we can deploy it to your mobile phone. Nice. You can experience it on your phone in 360 degrees. All you have to do is move the phone to look up, look down. Look gyroscopes use
Chris Rainey 32:20
gyroscopes in the fall. Yes, yeah. Price, and that was scalable. That's the point. So you know, a lot of these things are great. So Oh, that's fantastic. But how do you scale it? Well, there you go. And even with the phone, you can buy like cardboard headsets that your phone mounts into. Right? And you can do that as well. So it isn't really it is cost effective to do that. So companies thinking, Oh, we can't do VR. You can. You can and you can scale it to rad. I'm glad you asked that because I think many people will probably would have heard this right now and said we can't do as well. All right. Where did we leave? Where did we leave off? Number five? D. o di initiatives?
Randal Pinkett 33:02
Yep. The initiatives? Yep. So So step three insights leads right in step four. And now we go from the O G to the SM. So the S is qualitative. The M is quantitative. S is strategies. What are you gonna do? And again, in the book, there's a laundry list of things you can do for people, books, you can read articles, videos, podcasts, like HR leaders. There's movies, you could decide to go to travel that you could undertake, I mean, the list is endless. And for organisations, again, strategies to pursue Employee Resource Groups. Organisation wide training. inclusive leadership for all managers. dei courageous conversations to build the muscle of having difficult dialogues me all so you decide what you're gonna do. It's your strategy. And then your measure is how you gauge progress and let me differentiate between outcomes and outputs. An outcome is what you ultimately hope to accomplish better culture, inclusive behaviours. The output is a stepping stone to get to the outcome. So an output is I read the book, I completed the training, I created the ERG and I've got 500 People in the erg. These are all outputs. They're not final outcomes, but they are intermediate stepping stones to get to them. So when we talked about the O G, objectives and goals, we're talking about outcomes. We talked about the SM strategies and measure we're talking about out what's progress measures, trainings, conversations, events, activities, that's dei initiatives.
Chris Rainey 34:58
So when you increase and use initiatives. So you start with what is the outcome we want and then work backwards.
Randal Pinkett 35:03
Exactly, because Step two was what do we
Chris Rainey 35:09
want to accomplish? Yeah. So you're working for that. So you can kind of it's great to keep you on track. Right. Like all it's all well and good, everyone, but isn't getting us there?
Randal Pinkett 35:16
That's right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. The objectives and goals are your Northstar. Yeah. Right. And measures are the path to get you there.
Chris Rainey 35:26
Yeah, I can see how companies can probably would veer off without realising.
Randal Pinkett 35:31
Right. Right. Right. Right. The objectives goals really keep us anchored with what are we really trying to do? Strategies and measures are simply tactics? And in some ways, those are the experiments. Let's try ERGs. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 35:46
There you go. Yeah. I wasn't expecting to ask you this, but just kind of popped in my mind has had a conversation about half an hour about this with a sit with a chief diversity officer saying, Chris, and they've gotten their Northstar. They know that outputs and outcomes. But right now, during, you know, all of the tech layoffs and everything, budgets are being cut. And di seems to be one of the areas has been effective affected the most. I just want to hear your thoughts on you know, maybe what advice you would give, and I'm sure you're hearing this from some of your clients right now. And it's tough, it's really disheartening. Because I felt like, you know, we now's the time, we should be doubling down. Yeah, this, this is the most important time to be doing this. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that.
Randal Pinkett 36:32
Yeah, I would say, you know, to those experiencing budget cuts, or layoffs, or downsizing or rightsizing. Keep your eyes on the prize. And by and by that I mean the following. windows of opportunity open, and then they close and their cycles for every organisation, every industry, every market, what you're ultimately trying to do within the windows that open is to change policy in ways that are lasting. In other words, if we can implement diverse interview slates as a policy that's lasting, if we can introduce diverse interview panels, as a policy that's lasting, if we can put in place tying compensation to goals and objectives. That's last instead, definitely, if we can get that done. The only way it will change, somebody has to undo it. So programmes are nice. So I'm not going to bemoan programmes, but programmes can come and go, they get slashed with budgets, I put in the leadership development programme, it gets cut, it goes away. But if I change the policy, that doesn't cost me anything. Once it's in place, meaning I don't have to slash the policies I am, I'm tying compensation to goals. That's how we do business. Now, liquid is so keep your eyes on the prize for what are the institutional changes that will last and not the programmatic ones that can be cut.
Chris Rainey 38:16
Man, I love that so much. Because when I'm having no conversations, it is about the programmes being cut to your point. Whereas if you're you know, as you said, if you've already assigned executive to a conversation to di, then that's a lost in policy that's going to be there wherever the budget goes or not. As well, right? Or pay parity, for example, by having that as a policy. That's probably another example. Right? That's gonna be there as well. So yeah, you kind of got to look at it through a different lens. In that sense, I didn't even think about that. So, Dennis, so if you are in that position, now you got to think about how to what do I double down on that's really going to be lasting? Exactly. as well. I love them and love that. We're on the last one, right? The AI impact.
Randal Pinkett 39:02
Yeah. So you'll appreciate this because you you already cued it up earlier. Di impact, on one hand, is about the data. Where do we make progress on our outputs? Wherever we had impact on our outcomes? Where have we enjoyed success? And where have we perhaps been stalled? But the second part is where you went earlier. It's also about dei storytelling. And I have an entire section here on the data, scorecards, dashboards reporting, like that's there. But I have an entire section on how do you tell the story? Who are the characters? What's the movie? What's the plot? What's the call to action? Yeah, you know, and it's uplifting. The personal experiences people have had, you know, Like, like I was a part of a lunch and learn with colleagues and I learned about one of my colleagues who came from India. And after that, like we hung out outside of work, and they taught me how to cook a dish from India. And now I know how to make this wonderful, exquisite food. And I'm a better person because of it. And I'm a better colleague, like that's the story you want people to tell. And it's channels to tell those stories, newsletters, blog posts, articles, intranet website, annual report, like tell the stories, tell it from the mountaintop, and that will inspire people and call them to action.
Chris Rainey 40:39
Love them. And because when people think about data driven di, they're not probably thinking stories. But there is only one piece of it right is how you tell how you tell the story around what did they it says right, which is going to remember, so I'm seeing a lot of auto jumping sort of today appears because I'm seeing a lot of companies. I'm seeing a couple of new startups that are launching now, right now specifically focused on the data. I'm seeing most companies are using their existing tech that they have in place and kind of using it for di along with the data from their poll surveys as well. But it's not maybe made for it specifically. They're kind of having to like, you know, make just make it work, as I say with what they already have, like, is there a specific platforms? You know, when you talk about data driven Dei, what is the best way to to measure success? What does good look like?
Randal Pinkett 41:37
Yeah, I'm seeing a growing cadre of what I call integrated dei platforms. I think about dandy as one example and no, I think that's been on your on your heart. I think about canaries with a que Matheson globe, smart Open Sesame blueprint strategy, platform included.ai mesh diversity. And M prising like, is it growing? Wow. performs? Yeah, it's I've referenced in the book, also see a growing cadre of integrated learning platforms, like M train, and Raleigh and others. So I think it is as as much due diligence, as we've talked about to the DEI journey, you want to apply that same due diligence to these platforms, because there's pros and cons across the board. And HR professionals know this from their journeys with HR is Yeah. So I mean, like, there are a plethora that are available now. And there's pros and cons, but what's the right fit for you? You before we started taping, you mentioned kind of the maturity of the DI, field. And of course, HR is more mature. We're now in the maturity curve of di m platforms are on that same curve. So I see the listeners, you know, do your homework on the platforms and figure out what is the best marriage with your IT infrastructure, your HR infrastructure, and your cultural infrastructure?
Chris Rainey 43:18
Yeah, what do you what are some of the questions you think they should be asking when considering whether they're investing in a DNI platform? Or D analytics platform?
Randal Pinkett 43:26
Yeah, I think you have to ask how comprehensive is the data collection engine, meaning, because data collection and data reporting are our brother and sister, I cannot report if I do not collect. So the collection piece has to be able to collect comprehensive demographics. You know, in the DI where we talk about intersectionality. In the data where we cross talk about cross tabulations. When I'm running cross tabs, I'm actually running intersectionality analysis. Can I run the analysis for gender and race? Can I run it on sexual identity and location, like all these cross sections are getting at intersectionality. And if I can't get to that I can get to deeper insights, is a book whose name I love. It's called the end of average. Because if you can't disaggregate, you end up with averages. What's the experience for everyone? What's the inclusivity score for everyone? And I obscure the deeper underlying realities of Latina women, LGBTQ men? The list goes on. So look hard at what data does this engine collect? Because the end of the day, it's going to restrict or enable what you can report?
Chris Rainey 44:42
Yeah. Love that. And also, you got to look at like, is there bias in it in the software itself? Because, you know, if the software was coded and built by a bunch of white males, then maybe, maybe there's bias built in if that makes any sense. Since as well listen, I got to do forever, man, I feel like I've got to let you go at some point. You know, you've you, there's so much more for everyone to get into in the book. But if there's when, if there's one, what's the one thing you want people to walk away from when they read that book?
Randal Pinkett 45:16
Yeah, the one thing I hope people walk away from is a fuller appreciation for their personal journey. I just did a session with leaders at a fortune 500 on data driven di and and I asked them, what's the benefit to you have more diverse relationships, more inclusive behaviours, and more equitable practices. And the first response I got Chris from a dei professional was, it will help our organisation to be more inclusive. Now I need you to listen to that. That's not the answer I was looking for. Because they framed it in the benefit of the organisation said no themselves.
Chris Rainey 46:00
Yeah, exactly.
Randal Pinkett 46:03
For you, I want you to be selfish. Like what, like literally? And the answer is a plethora of answers. It will get you better compensation, more advancement, better health, better wellness, more expanded opportunities. Like there is a personal case for DTI, which I don't think we've told because we focus on the business case for di but I hope people take away is the importance of their personal journey. I don't care what your organisation says, What do you say about why it matters to you?
Chris Rainey 46:37
Yeah, that's for everyone listening right now. But you'll write your answer in the comments section. I'm gonna post this clip on LinkedIn. Mark, you're listening right now. We're gonna post this as a clip. But we're going to ask that question on LinkedIn. Let's see what this will see responses we get, because it's very, very rare that we are offered answers are asked that question, you know, what does it mean for Chris? And I guarantee you most people will be like, Wow, I never even thought about it that way. So you know, because that's what that's what we're doing it for every single individual, as well. So that's such a great way to end. Where can people learn more about you grab a copy of the book, where's the best place to go?
Randal Pinkett 47:15
Yeah, folks can go to data driven Dei, I'm so glad it was available.com. And they can learn more about me learn about the book, just go to Randall Pinkett with one l.com From my personal website and go to CP partners.com. To learn more about the work we do at PCT
Chris Rainey 47:30
amazing for everyone listening all those links are already in the in the chat or the description, wherever you are, whatever platform you're listening, the links will be there as well. Also, make sure you go and connect with Randy over on LinkedIn and and follow him now. But man, it's such a pleasure. I appreciate it. I love what you're doing. I'm so excited to get the book into the hands of our audience and everyone not just the HR leaders, like we said earlier, this is for everyone out there and I think that's an important distinction. People always ask me Chris, why do you have all different guests around these things? Because it's for everyone. You know, I don't think it's called the HR leaders podcast but this is everyone should be responsible for the for a culture for inclusion for know, we all we all play a part and have an impact. So I appreciate everything you do, man and I wish you all the best. And so we expect I need to come over to your house and there's some tunes I thought now I'm looking at the Dirac allow right there's gonna be a good night. Good night of listening, but I wish you all the best until next week.
Randal Pinkett 48:26
Chris precedes you and your voice blessings.