Reimagine Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace

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In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, I spoke with Mita Mallick, author of "Reimagine Inclusion" and Head of Inclusion, Equity and Impact at Carta. We covered many important topics related to diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts in today's workplace. I wanted to share some key takeaways:

Mita stressed that inclusion is a business imperative, not just a "nice to have." Diverse teams drive innovation, reflect your customers, and allow employees to bring their best selves to work. She shared poignant examples of how everyday aggressions and lack of belonging detract from performance. Leaders must listen, observe, and check in frequently to create welcoming environments.

Navigating the DEI Backlash

Mita acknowledged the intensity of the current backlash against diversity efforts. She advised leaders to avoid simply dismissing concerns as "political," but rather humanize these issues. Building relationships across differences is key to leading through challenging times.

Advice for Leaders

Mita offered tactical tips for leaders looking to foster inclusion. Surround yourself with diverse perspectives, dig into employee experiences, and focus on the nuances required to support different communities. Small changes by individuals collectively shift culture.

Mita's New Book

Mita's book "Reimagine Inclusion" offers insights into common myths stymying inclusion efforts. She aims to inspire readers to action with simple, daily steps to drive change.

Episode Highlights

The Evolving role of the Chief Diversity Officer
The Importance of Inclusion and Navigating DI Backlash in the Workplace
Debunking 13 Myths To Transform Your Workplace

Recommended Resources

Follow Mita on LinkedIn
Listen to the Brown Table
Learn more about Carta
Grab a copy of the book her book

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🎙️ Automatically generated Podcast Transcript

Mita 0:00

We're living in this time, Chris of is it woke? Is it anti woke? Is it political? Is it a political and I think we just lost the fundamental truth of supporting loving and caring for each other. What I mean by that is I work with a lot of leaders who will say we'll meet. I can't talk about this. It's too political. And so what I'll coach the leader to think about is well, is it through the lens of privilege that we say something as political?

Chris Rainey 0:31

Hi, everyone, welcome back to the HR leaders podcast, and today's episode, I'm joined by Mita Malik, who's a Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestselling author, LinkedIn top voice head of inclusion, equity and impact at Carta, and CO hosts of the roundtable talk podcast during the podcast we discussed meet his new book reimagined inclusion, debunking 13 myths to transform your workplace. She also talks about how organisations can navigate for di backlash, and the evolving role of the chief diversity officer. As always, before we jump to the video, make sure hit the subscribe button, turn on notification bell and follow on your favourite podcast platform. With that being said, let's jump in. Hey Mita, welcome. How are you?

Mita 1:13

I'm doing great, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Unknown Speaker 1:14

I see behind you. You've been practising your drawing skills

Mita 1:17

since Yes, I have been they're getting better over time. Right right now the equivalent of an eight year olds but hey, we're working on it.

Unknown Speaker 1:23

Everybody joking. We had an old joke before we hit record about your doors. I love it. It just now we're having a five year old myself. I

Speaker 2 1:31

know exactly. How it is. It brings a bit of energy in love and life isn't office, but how are you how you been?

Mita 1:38

I'm doing really well. I am grateful and in a really good place in my life. So I'm very happy. For context

Speaker 2 1:45

for people that are listening. We connected like six years ago on a panel discussion with our mutual friend Joel Katz. And now we're six, seven years later, you're at Carter now. You've got the podcast give I want to catch up. So so the background and the journey to where we are now.

Mita 2:02

So I left a long career in consumer product goods, very big fortune 100 companies only works for public companies. Chris, as you know, and I thought I really wanted to change my leadership profile and learn a lot more about private equity and venture capital. So I did something very different. I went to be the first ever had a chief diversity officer for a late stage Fintech startup carta 1500 people very different. Tech is very different that I also started a podcast called roundtable talk, which I'm really excited about and proud of with my friend DC Marshall. It's part of the LinkedIn Podcast Network. I have a book coming out reimagined, inclusion, actually it is out I have been living with it for so long, that I keep forgetting. It is now out reimagined inclusion debunking 13 myths to transform your workplace and like you busy parent, most important thing I'm trying to do is raise kind and inclusive to human beings. How long

Speaker 2 2:54

was the book in the making, by the way, because like you said, it's versus living in your mind, then you probably spend a few years living revenues out there. And so

Mita 3:03

I've had many failed, starts and stops. I wrote three novels that were never published. I ended up writing a nonfiction proposal. I couldn't get an editor anyone to look at. And then I started writing this book four years ago, there's a lot of inequities in publishing. I had people say to me, there are a lot of people who look like you writing books like this. We come back to us when you have a book like Sheryl Sandberg, and I love Sheryl Sandberg, Sheryl Sandberg and I are very different people. So my book wouldn't be like hers. I had people say to me, she's a masterful, powerful storyteller. She needs more file followers. No one's gonna buy the book. I have a lot of people say a lot of like, Ha, say hurtful things. Because I don't know I think feedbacks a gift, you would agree with this feedbacks important. In terms of our leadership development, I was always looking for feedback on the writing thing. But it was anything but the writing that the feedback was on, but four years later, here we are,

Speaker 2 3:53

feels like they gave you a whole new chapter to add off to off the back of that feedback and journey. Why write this book? Because there's many di books out there. Why, why why go down this route.

Mita 4:06

I wanted to say the quiet parts out loud of the things that are holding us back. I think about the bedtime stories I tell my kids at night, and reminds you of the stories we tell ourselves in work that aren't true. And if we hold on to the things, how are we going to actually make progress. And so if you follow me on social media, or any of my writing, I like to be a little clickbait your brain and say, Oh, good, you're good. But I want people to pay attention because otherwise, listen, we've been doing this work for so long. And people will say progress is slow. Not fast enough. And so how do I get people to think differently about this topic? And so that was really my hope and approaching the book in the way I did.

Speaker 2 4:43

Yeah. It's interesting because your background and experience within consumer products and then merging that with the work you do now. It does feel like a match made in heaven. Did you realise how powerful that skill set would be combined

Mita 4:57

storytelling and the power of storytelling? Is is A very underrated skill, which now people are realising I don't care what you're doing, or you're selling something, I don't care who you are, if you're working at a company or you have your own business, and so the art of how you share people, the impact you want to make, how you want enhance the quality of someone's life, I didn't really realise this that Chris until I actually probably a few years into this, but what I would say is that I was inspired to go into this work as a chief diversity officer, as you know, I've always felt inclusion as a driver of the business. And I always wondered when I was leading these big brands, like, I don't want people who look like me, why are they in the centre of the commercial or on the box are in the film and who makes those decisions? Who gets to decide who gets spotlighted? And so I think I always sort of knew it, but it really came to life when I started doing the work.

Speaker 2 5:46

It's interesting, because some of the things that you shared with me that we spoke about eight years ago, are now the buzzwords of the day. Now still, yeah. We were laughing about and smiling, but it's kind of crazy like you, when we did that panel with Joe and Matt, we were talking about how DNI impacts the product itself and the innovation and etc. And only now are we starting to see that actually really 20 since only a few companies that are really taking that seriously. And we're still having that conversation. We've seen the data, we've seen that, you know, we all have the data resources there that anyone can find it. Yeah. But why is it still not common place common practice in organisations?

Mita 6:27

I'm going to share the data. Again, I think it's important. Well, I'll just share one piece of data which I included reimagined inclusion, our friends at Procter and Gamble will tell us there's over $5 trillion of spending power with a multicultural consumer that does not include veterans, individuals with disability, LGBTQ plus community. So you think of Chris all the different dimensions of diversity, some which you can see right now, because you're talking to me, others, which I haven't revealed to you, there is so much opportunity to authentically serve consumers were overlooking. And I think part of the question you're asking is, who do we surround ourselves with? If we don't have access to lived experiences that aren't our own, just as you were talking about your friends and their experiences fundraising with you, you wouldn't understand how to serve them? And isn't that the irony? Because the job of marketers is to know someone so well, you can surprise or delight them with a product they didn't expect. But do you know them and their lived experience and really understand the history of their community? And that's what I think it's missing?

Speaker 2 7:25

MIT? Was that missing? No leap going from there to actually integrating that into your product into your marketing? What's the gap? Was it was was this still a divide? Do you think?

Mita 7:34

I think I've been in many a room, where I will say comments like, this happened to me earlier in my career, where I was working on an amazing launch of colour cosmetics, which did not work on my skin tone, the irony. And I remember saying something to the VP at the time saying this actually blush eyeshadow doesn't show up. If we put more pigment in, we would be able to have a darker shade of colours. And she said to me, no one's going to buy that. Yeah, they're not going to buy that. Because the own bias of who she thinks will buy the product and who she thinks is worthy of the product. Very interesting, right? And so I've often heard well, that that consumers not what have you asked, How do you know, and so many marketers, there's such a lack of humility and leadership these days, right? And like, I've been raised in a corporate sort of environment where you're supposed to have the answers to everything. And so when people are challenged, well, I know my consumer, I know, they would never buy this, or we don't want to sell to this community. I've heard all sorts of things over the years.

Speaker 2 8:35

It's interesting, because Natasha, you know, you know, obviously, you've met my wife, Natasha. And she has a brand that she uses that is focused on on black women, or women of colour. It's not a brand you've ever heard of. And I remember asking early in our relationship, why don't you use the name some of the common brands? She's like, didn't make this. Like, what do you mean? And I was so confused. That is a huge population, like you just described. What do you mean, they don't make it? She's like, No, I have to go to the, as she calls it double like hair shop, as she travels an hour across London, even to this day, to go to a specific shop that stocks specific products for her. So I know when she's like, Hey, I'm going to get my haircut or I'm going to get X, Y and Z. I know she's going across London to this one shop that sells it. And it blows my mind to even say this lady. That's still the case. I know, something we spoke about before, which I wanted to ask you about is is sort of the DI backlash that we're that we're seeing and hearing. Many leaders I speak to kind of steer away from the conversation. I know you're one you're one not to steer away from it. So I'd love to hear your your your thoughts in terms of you know, how leaders and organisations can navigate di backlash.

Mita 9:49

I feel very sad about it. I feel very sad and disappointed but I'm continuing to do this work because I'm hopeful. I want the world of work to change for all of our kids. I don't want my children to experience what I experienced in the workplace, I'm in the backlash I'm gonna just share from a US perspective. I know we have a global audience, but from where I'm sitting in New Jersey, Roe v. Wade was overturned in the US last year, affirmative action was overturned. In states like Florida and Texas, it is now illegal to have a chief diversity officer in public institutions that's written into legislation. Books are being banned books that you wouldn't imagine that you read growing up, my book will likely be banned. And so we're living in this time, Chris of is it woke? Is it anti woke? Is it political? Is it a political, and I think we just lost the fundamental truth of supporting, loving and caring for each other. And what I mean by that is I work with a lot of leaders who will say we'll meet I can't talk about this. It's too political. It's too political. I don't want to say anything about it. And so what I'll coach the leader to think about is well, is it it through the lens of privilege that we say something as political, so is their privilege and my being able to say black lives matter is political, anti Asian hate crimes is political, anti semitism, Islamophobia, anti LGBTQ legislation, I can go on and on for individuals who are in these communities who identify as part of a historically marginalised community. I don't know anyone who would say that it's political, it's life or death, it's life or death, and it's hurt or harm. And so if we actually took the lens to think about, well, why are we so scared of this issue? Why are we calling it woke? Why are we pushing it so far away and othering it which we if we actually knew somebody from that community, right, this goes back to the question I asked. Now, we're chasing inclusion in our workplaces. We've spent over $8 billion on DNI training. I think it's more than that. That was like a stat from almost a year and a half ago. And it starts at our kitchen tables, it starts in our homes, who are we actually surrounding ourselves, right? If I asked you the question, and it's a rhetorical question, but think about who the five people are, that you call, or you text, when you have something major to celebrate, or a decision you're trying to make. That's not family, not family. If those five people all look like you act like you and think like you, the real hard truth is that most of us are still self segregating. And that's how we're living our lives outside of work. So if you're not building meaningful relationships outside of work, cross cultural relationships, how can you expect me to lead a diverse team at work?

Speaker 2 12:23

I've never really heard someone talk about your phone, net, external, we always talk about just the circle internally, as opposed to your circle, externally. And I think I've heard many people bring that up.

Mita 12:34

Well, if you think about it, we spend so much time, we spend a lot of time at work, but we spend a lot of time outside of work, too. And so if I had no experience, I've had no interactions with someone, let's say from the South Asian community, or the Indian community. And my only experience has been film or television or books, which can be dangerous. I have a stereotype in my head. Yeah. And then I go into work with that stereotype. And then I'm leading someone who is South Asian, she's on my team, it's it's very easy to pull on those stereotypes. And it's very easy to start othering whether we realise it or not,

Chris Rainey 13:07

that was a big wake up call for me, because I grew up in a in East London, which is super more multicultural. You know, those two white kids in my class? Yes, very, very diverse. And so I experienced a lot of different cultural nuances growing up, and that was just, I never even saw it that like, that's just what it was. There was never, you know, you didn't see colour almost. So that sounds kind of cliche, but that was my, you know, my experience growing up. So when I first got my job in the city and walked into the workplace, even in interview, seeing other people being interviewed, and it was just a sea of white males, the whole sales floor. It was so confusing to me, because obviously, where I grew up, where's everyone else? Didn't see it? Because they grew up with other white. No. Didn't see it. And I was like, this is like, I remember asking, like my manager in a team, and they're like, What do you mean? Like they were, they were looking at me, like, I was asking crazy questions. What do we only hire white males? Right? And maybe a few white females. And they're like, just looking at me, like, I'm crazy for asking that question. And

Mita 14:09

that's so powerful, because your lived experience and how you grew up are different was different than their so you saw the world differently. And so yeah, you were asking those questions when you entered work,

Speaker 2 14:19

and the type of things out overhead, um, say was just crazy, you know? And I'd be like, Wow, whoa, you can't say that, you know, you got like, there was so many moments to just pull people up. And then And then I remember the first time my wife came into the office, and they were all surprised that I'm married to a black woman. Like there was a there was actually a vision of an actual you could see people's how uncomfortable people were. And, and I was like, oh my god, like, this is what so what you just expect that I had a white wife where I like, and it was like, people didn't know what to say to her or like, do I say to my friend, I was like, wow, this is I always find it comical because I was like how uncomfortable people were.

Mita 14:58

So I love that you bring that up. because people always ask, why is inclusion so important? And I think you just gave a brilliant example, which is imagine I work for you. And I'm at the office, and half my time is spent wondering if people are going to make comments about my hair. Yeah. If they're going to ask, Why do I speak English? So well? How did I get rid of my accent? My lunch is smelly. I'm taking up too much space, I'm not taking up enough space, right? So all these comments every single day, I'm really actually not working at 100%. I'm working at 50% 50% capacity, although you've hired me for my genius and expertise to work for at 100%. I can't, because every day I'm coming in with armour on every day, I'm wondering what's going to be said or done in the office. And I'm already at 50%. So imagine if you could get 100% of me. Imagine the impact for the company. And also for myself,

Speaker 2 15:52

you just bought back a moment for me it was the employee we had coochie Nani amazing woman, hope you're doing well if we ever listening to this. And she approached me about that before, because people will complain about her food. She had microwave food, and I remember what food it was, everyone would complain. And it became this really big thing. And I was like, wow, like she's just trying to eat food. Right. And I that was just like, 10 years ago, actually, you just brought back a memory.

Mita 16:18

So that's what I want leaders listening to really think about, yeah, what is the experience of your team members working with you, for you and at your company? Do you really know what their experience is like? And are you getting the most out of them? That's what you hired them for?

Unknown Speaker 16:32

What are some practical things you can do to be have to have that question inclusive, inclusive, be a more inclusive leader?

Mita 16:39

listen more and observe. I've been raised in a world that doesn't shut up. Right? We were always taught taught to talk, talk, talk, talk talk, especially through leading, you're supposed to be talking, you're actually just listening more and observing. The fact that you go back to that incident of the lunch, people's reactions, nonverbal comments that are happening, and then going in and checking on people asking questions. How are you doing? You know, I love when people are like, Oh, the example of Chris is coming in late and leaves early. He used to be such a high performer and now he's like, completely disengaged. He's a pot stirrer. He's a troublemaker, right? He's a detractor. And you're like, Okay, what role did you play in that? If Chris was a high performer, like what has happened in the environment? Sometimes it could be something personal, of course, right? We all have things happening in our personal lives, but like what has happened at work? Like if you were doing so well, like, what? Watch for that? Watch for that? Is someone bullying you? Are you the target of everyday aggressions? And check in on people? We don't check in on people enough?

Speaker 2 17:40

It's such a good point. And it's almost like you just scared me because you're just describing my exact rally before I quit my job, because I was literally

Mita 17:49

intense look in your face.

Speaker 2 17:50

I was like, no, because I was like, how do you know this? Like, because like, I was at a company for 10 years, and I was one of the highest performers. And probably six months before I left, that was exactly where I was, I was coming in late, leaving early have disengaged, you literally described and I was like, Well,

Mita 18:06

I go back to what is the definite definition of inclusion in our workplaces, you're you just actually hit the nail on the head, it's that you want to see, you want to be valued. Yeah, recognised your contributions matter, your voice matters, you're making an impact, you bring up a really important point, I've been thinking about a lot lately on how some people just aren't meant to lead. And I don't mean that in a critical, harmful way. I just mean that some people love their expertise so much. They want to be individual contributors. And it's destroying our workplaces. When you have this idea of this rat race that like the only way I'm going to be successful is if I leave, lead a team of 2530. That's not true. I might just be more successful if I'm just given no team at all. But I get to make impact on what I love doing. And the environment then becomes great for me and everyone else.

Chris Rainey 18:54

One of his want to talk about is the evolving role of the chief diversity officer from when we first had our first conversation to where we are now. It's almost unrecognisable the role of the chief diversity officer, how have you seen that evolve over the past couple of years? And where do you see it going? In the future

Mita 19:11

with the diversity tipping point in May 2020, when corporate America said black lives do matter, with the murder of George Floyd, we saw a lot of commitments in the marketplace, both in the US and globally around the world. And you're seeing a lot of those who have fallen off. And you're also seeing a lot of chief diversity officers being laid off teams being downsized roles being minimised due to the backlash, as well as the fatigue. But what I would argue is what we talked about seven years ago, inclusion is a driver of the business if you build it into everything you do, you just can't cut it off. Yeah. If you think about it in terms of who are you attracting, retaining? We just had this conversation. Are you reflecting the communities in which you operate it in all levels? How are you thinking about your people processes? How are you paying people fairly and equitably? I can go through every people process and think about Yeah, like, is there an inclusion lens, and then we talk about second products and services. If you tell me there's no growth to be had, I will tell you, you're not looking in the right places. And there's likely communities you ignore the story about your wife is a phenomenal story. Travels an hour for a haircut. How do you actually get her to buy from a bigger brand? What would it take? And she is one of I trust 1000s of women that you could be bringing into your brand. Supplier Diversity is another big piece, right? We don't build it enough that how many times have I worked, Chris, for an incredibly large fortune 10 company, we write the same $10 million check to the same brand, you know, this sitting on the other side? It's like, why aren't we giving more small business owners a chance and changing the ecosystem in the last piece, I would say it's a really tough time to be leading right now. For all the reasons we can discuss in more, but you can say you're going to stand for values, but when are you ready to stand up for them. And more and more employees, especially Gen Z are saying I want to work for a company that reflects my values. So you're going to be in a marketplace where you're going to have a coin Base and Base Camp over here, which have said, don't want to talk about politics, don't want to talk about social justice at work. And then you have Patagonia, Ben and Jerry's, you've all these other brands on the other side, where they're like, No, we're gonna stand for something. And it's part of who we are. And so it'll be employees choice, right? Employees will go work for companies that where they feel like they belong,

Speaker 2 21:27

the first point you made is something that is real in terms of leaders leaving a professional being let go. But last week, and up to today, though, for chief diversity officers that have been let go.

Chris Rainey 21:39

Some of them are less than even a year in to the role where the company, there clearly was some pressure. So you know, to hire this person getting the role now all of a sudden, it's no longer a party. Every single one of them it was it was a non it's not expected and a complete shock. Yeah.

Speaker 2 22:01

as well. So that's real, first and foremost. And that's one of my concerns, like, can we sustain the momentum that was built off of the back of the doors, Floyd and everything else? And I'd like some companies, it was a sort of a tinderbox exercise depression, diversity washing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm glad you said that. And, and you can see others who are truly living their values, their mission and purpose and a thriving attempt at attracting the right talent, to your point retaining people, and that's filtering into their products. Absolutely. That's that's real. What What advice would you give to those leaders that are in those roles that they kind of been hired in? But is, as you just said, diversity washing?

Mita 22:44

Well, I would say it actually goes back to when you get the offer. I've done this many a time, make sure you're set up for success budget team, I've negotiated those things upfront,

Speaker 2 22:53

what a question to ask. And so those are two, what are some of the other questions are asking in to know? Are they really committed? Why the questions,

Mita 23:00

get the offer? First, I always say, Oh, get the offer, and then have a series of more conversations. Are you in the middle of a crisis? Are you about to enter a crisis? What are the things that you didn't have a chance to tell me during the interview, but now that I have the offer, I hope that you'll be more transparent. If you're getting a Chief Diversity Officer role, it's either reporting into the CHR, or CEO dotted line, you have to have access to the full C suite. So make sure if they weren't part of your interview panel, that you're asking to meet with all those individuals, that you should be meeting with General Counsel, you should be meeting with the CMO, you should actually be and I've done this, as I love LinkedIn, the power of LinkedIn, it is a built in reference system referral system, go and find people who used to work at those companies and ask them what their experience was like, take it with a grain of salt, we've all different experiences. But if you talk to enough people, you can really figure out what the challenges are. I think once you give out an offer, and once I have an offer, if you were the CEO, you might be likely to be a little bit more honest with me. What am I getting myself into? Chris, tell me what you really need me to do here.

Speaker 2 24:01

It's so interesting to say that because I had an awkward moment, I'm not going to mention who they are, because it will cause a lot of drama. I had a CH ro come on the show, sort of talk about some of the work that we're doing around di and initiatives, etc. I released the episode, and I've literally got so many emails and messages for employees who are furious. Wow. And former employees who said, Hey, Chris, you know, someone who I know and trust, you know, love to show but I just want to let you know, this is not what's being reflected internally in the company. And this is an active PR marketing campaign that they've created to cover up the noise just being made. And I thought wow, and it was many, many people independently that came to me and I was Oh, my point I'm making there is that people will find out these companies, people will find how social media exists Glassdoor exists, you know, etc.

Mita 24:56

you to find out and the question there is is that how early are they in there? Journey. And as a chief diversity officer, you have to assess if you're wanting to go into a company that's so early in their journey. And I really think about taking assignment, what impact can I make in one, two or three years? Think about it that way as well. Because as you go in and build trust, likely, you'll be able to have more wins along the way.

Speaker 2 25:17

Yeah. Listen, I know you're short on time. But we need to do a part two, as Bailey Bailey got into the conversation, as well. But like, I think two things right before you go for the book, what's really the one thing you want people to walk away from with the book? If there's one thing you wanted people to take away from the book? What would that be?

Mita 25:36

I want people to think about one or two things they can do differently at work tomorrow and show up with a positive impact. Imagine if each of us showed up into our workplaces tomorrow, and positively, did something different? Wow. It's not like we have to do 15 things overnight. And that's what I really want people to think about the book is expensive. It's 13 minutes, I don't expect people to read it and start doing all of those things tomorrow. But I expect you think one or two things are like, wow, I hadn't thought about that before. Just like at the beginning of this conversation, you said, I didn't think about inclusion starting at the kitchen table versus the conference room table. I'm going to think about that some more of what that means how my personal life actually impacts how I show up at work. In terms of the relationships I'm building and leading

Speaker 2 26:19

last thing where can people grab the book, a copy of the book? And then where can they connect with you? If they want to reach out and say

Mita 26:23

hi, book is available and Amazon and pretty much where is it? India, Canada, UK, US slowly rolling out the rest of Europe and independent booksellers, bookstores, you can find them they're

Speaker 2 26:35

amazing. And I would say for everyone, make sure you go follow me on LinkedIn. Check out the roundtable podcasts as well. Incredible. You also super active on LinkedIn, which is great. So there are so many great insights and content. Follow the newsletter, you have a newsletter on LinkedIn. Yes,

Chris Rainey 26:51

I also personally follow so I know about that. All links will be in the description. So wherever you're listening, watching right now, all of those links are below. So make sure you go and follow grab a copy of the book. And I just want to say out I'm really I'm like, I'm really happy for you like January from when we first spoke. And it was sort of truly living your purpose and your why and the impact are you What do you do at a podcast and the book and everything?

Mita 27:15

I so appreciate you. You've showed up as an ally for me over the years your podcast with Jill and Matt was the first one I ever did. And you've been in touch with me over the years. Come join this come speak here. Come to this community event and I so appreciate you. That's what we do for each other. So thank you we rise together. All right. Listen, I wish you all the best. Thank you much