The Unspoken Truth About Trauma
As HR leaders, we carry a heavy burden supporting our people while often not tending to our own needs. In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, Jasmine Francis, Head of People & DEIB at Pliancy opened up in a raw, vulnerable way about her lived experience with trauma and mental health challenges.
Jasmine shared her journey of struggling with depression and anxiety while climbing the corporate ladder. She felt constantly torn between her outwardly bubbly persona at work and her inner turmoil. After a tragic suicide attempt, Jasmine finally opened up about her struggles and got the help she needed.
Since then, Jasmine has prioritized self-care while also better supporting her teams. She is transparent about needing "breather days" and has created a "mental health tribe" to check in on her. Jasmine emphasizes giving yourself grace, finding trusted confidants, and clearly communicating your needs.
Her story resonated deeply with me, as I'm sure it will with many HR pros. We often hide behind a veneer of perfection and strength in our roles. Jasmine's courage to share her unfiltered truth was a wake-up call. We must create psychological safety on our teams to talk about mental health. Only by getting vulnerable and real can we foster human-centered cultures where people bring their whole selves to work.
If you lead people, I encourage you to reflect on how you role model self-care and vulnerability. How can you have more open conversations to combat the stigma around mental health struggles? As Jasmine so wisely said, "It's okay to say you're not okay." Let's end the silence.
Episode Highlights
The challenges and opportunities of being a fully remote HR Leader
How transparency about her own challenges has made Jasmine a more empathetic leader
How Jasmine creates space for self-care to prevent burnout on her team
🎙️ Automatically generated Podcast Transcript
Jasmine 0:00
So it's okay to say I'm not okay. Even if you don't go all the way into why you're not okay? It's okay to say you're not okay. I'd rather that than to you suffer in silence, and we don't get to see your light shine anymore
Chris Rainey 0:22
Hi, everyone, welcome back to the HR leaders podcast. In today's episode, I'm joined by Jasmine Francis who's the Head of People & DEIB at Pilancy. During the episode, Jasmine shares the challenges and opportunities of being a fully remote HR leader. The consequences of ignoring trauma, and the unrealistic expectations that HR leaders have to be perfect. As always, before we jump into the video, make sure you hit the subscribe button, turn on notification bell and follow us on your favourite podcast platform. With that being said, let's jump in. Jasmine. Welcome to the show. How are you?
Jasmine 0:54
I'm good. How are you?
Chris Rainey 0:56
What's the secret? It's all of your energy. And I think I've ever spoken to you and you're not been super happy, smiley and energetic? What's going on? How much coffee you drink in?
Jasmine 1:05
The truth is, um, no. You know what, I tried to wake up every morning feeling just grateful, grateful to be able to open my eyes. And I am lucky enough to be involved in a lot of cool things. And it gets me excited. The older I've gotten, you know, the more I've realised that I've aligned myself to things that actually give me joy. And those things feed me in the morning, which is why wake?
Chris Rainey 1:30
Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about you. And your background to the new role now.
Jasmine 1:34
Yes, yes. So I am currently the head of people and EIB at pliancy. And my journey, I've been in the HR space for about 16 years. I got my undergrad degree in French, which I use every single day, by the way for random
Chris Rainey 1:49
but okay. Would you plan on going to work in France, like what was the
Jasmine 1:55
actually, to work for the UN, I wanted I so bad, I have a graduate degree in organisational development. And so I was unclear on exactly what I wanted to do. I didn't get my grad degree until further in my career, but I knew I've always liked people. And so my first job was actually at a private equity firm, where I was an HR assistant, I had no idea what I was doing at all. And one thing I was good at was connecting people talking to people communication, and I was like, and then so when I got promoted, I just started to your point, just leaning more and more into the things I liked about my job. And then next thing you know, I am an HR analyst, and at the same place, and I'm like, This is so cool. And because I'm naturally an empath, I was starting to feel a lot of the energy around me just didn't feel good, the morale was down. And I was like, You know what, I don't know what to do about it. But I know this is a problem. So I'm going to go back to school. And I'm going to get my degree in organisational development. And I'm going to figure out how we can solution some of these problems. And I was able to use a lot of the techniques I learned in school and to the organisation at that point, I'd been there for about eight, nine years. And I said, Okay, I'm ready to soar. Throughout my career, I've worked in primarily large financial services I've worked at, you know, Goldman Sachs, being why Mellon, you know, a lot of the bigger companies, and then then I hit a wall, and I was like, I can't do corporate anymore. I feel like I cannot be authentically myself. And because I do have some mental health challenges, it was really hard to be authentically me and not feel as though there was the corporate Jasmine and the real Jasmine who had to hide in the bathroom and cry all the time.
Chris Rainey 3:40
Example, give me an example of when you felt like that just for the audience to really understand the context.
Jasmine 3:45
Sure. So if I was in a depressive episode, for example, you know, that's so hard to get out of bed so hard to just do anything. It feels like you're running miles just to move. And so for me to actually get myself physically to work took everything out of me, and I just wanted to cry. That's all I wanted to do. Everyone was used to seeing me being bubbly. And so it was just asking what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? Who are you what's wrong. And so I felt like I had to go to the bathroom to really shed the tears of what I was feeling. And then I would come out the bathroom and act like the jasmine, bubbly person that everyone knew. And that was exhausting putting on that face. I think corporate America served me for a really long time. And it helped me get further in my career. But the older I've gotten, the more I am leaning into being me and accepting all parts of me and that is showing up and leaning into those moments where I don't feel good. And that's okay. So I started working at things which is a smaller organisation, there are about 100 or so people. I got to show up as myself and all those days that I wasn't feeling great. I could say I wasn't feeling great. And I could take a mental health day and now it pliancy as the head of people I have the ability and the influence to do reach mental reset days, and to give people mental health toolkits to help them navigate through those tough times. We don't have to suffer in silence. So that has been my HR journey to where I am long story but love that stuff involved.
Chris Rainey 5:17
Did you know you were struggling at the time?
Jasmine 5:19
No, I didn't. I just thought I was having a lot of bad days, a lot of times, but I didn't connect the dots to say, Hmm, this is something that's consistent, this may be a bigger problem, I may need to get professional help. I think the pressures of when when people meet you, they think sometimes that they know you. And that pressure of having to feel like I'm showing up in the way they expect me to disconnected me from what I was really feeling. So instead of me saying, like, something's not right, I should be getting professional help here. I was saying what's wrong with me? I'm Jasmine, I'm so happy and bubbly people know me is this, what's wrong, I have to be this person. And so it just further disconnected me because I was more in tune with what people's expectations were of me rather than what my expectations of myself were and just allowing me to be me,
Chris Rainey 6:08
you kind of got this internal external battle, I guess happening, what was the catalyst to to start talking about it, and start sharing it.
Jasmine 6:18
I will say that this may be a trigger warning. But I did have a suicide attempt in 2019. And I had no idea the severity of the situation until the situation happened. And because it was so public, I couldn't hide anymore. My friends knew my family knew, you know, I didn't show up to work. So my coworkers knew something was wrong. So it forced me to really unveil that facade, and say, I'm struggling and it's taken, see 2019 2023 Yet it's taken some years to be able to just talk about it and to say, hey, people are struggling in silence. And that's okay, let's talk about it. Let's give them the resources. But I definitely learned the hard way that it's okay to say I'm not okay,
Chris Rainey 7:09
that that's something that scares me the most. And thank thank god, you're still here with us. But some of the people have lost friends and family to suicide. Just you just had no idea. I saw them last week, they seemed happy to find out a close friend of mine that lost two of his siblings in the space of a year of just suicide. And yeah, one of my best friends and I are gonna get tearful just thinking about it. Right now, and again, you just do like to happy, outgoing people, but there's just suffering on the inside, you know, and they felt that they couldn't tell anyone speak to anyone, as well, which is why it's so important to share. Can you share what you're struggling with? Was it was it something to do at work or personal? Or you didn't know at all what it was?
Jasmine 7:54
I didn't know, first of all, Chris, I'm so sorry to hear that. That's, Ah, it's so heavy. It's so much. And it's so it's a lot to process. So I definitely am giving you a big hug right now. I didn't know what what it was, I just knew that I didn't want to live like that anymore. I think honestly, probably the foundation of it was the fact that I had to be two separate people. I was the person that my family knew my friends knew my co workers knew. And then I was the person who was miserable inside and was struggling every day. And I think I just got to the point where, for me, I realised that you know, unfortunately, that could be a way that I could deal with that pain, it was easier for me to think like that. And then to be able to tell somebody I need help. And to say that I'm not.
Chris Rainey 8:47
Thus that's one of the things that is hard when you say it out loud, it doesn't seem real, right like that. You'd rather think to that level than tell someone I lived like that for like 14 years about telling my wife, friends, family, anyone that was suffering with panic attacks, anxiety attacks, etc. And because I was that it was more scary to tell them then to then tick and just continue living that way. Which seems the same it doesn't like now and when you have a side of it, where I realised that a lot of those worries were unfound you know, like, my wife's not gonna respect me and my friends are not gonna like me. What am I? What's what will wait for it? You know, there's so many what ifs? And then you kind of thankfully in my case, when I shared it, I had nothing but support. So what what what was the steps that you took? What kind of advice could you give to the listeners and for them personally, but also for the employees that they support?
Jasmine 9:45
It's so easy to share my insights and I totally recognise that when you're in it. It doesn't feel as easy but I would say number one, give yourself grace. Try not to judge yourself. Give yourself compassion. Give yourself love number one If I would have taken the time to give myself a hug first than I would have more easily not to say that it would have been easy, but more easily been able to say, Okay, I love myself, I am going to give myself compassion and give myself grace. And then I'm going to open this up to other people. But I should have given myself a hug first. That's one thing that I do recommend to people is to give yourself grace, there's reasons why you may be feeling like this, you didn't make it up, it could be anything from trauma to how you grew up to chemical imbalances. There's all types of reasons are contributors to how we feel. And that's okay. Number two, I would say find somebody that you trust, even if it's just one person, whoever that one person is that you feel that you can trust the most. Start with them, and preface the conversation by saying, I want to tell you something, without your judgement, this is what I need from you. That's another thing that I had to learn the hard way on is that I was communicating to people, but I wasn't being clear about what I expected back from them. So I would share and people wouldn't know what to say, they would say, Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. And that's it. But now I say, There's something I need to tell you. And I just want you to listen, I have no expectation of you saying anything back, but I want you to support me. And this is how I want to be supported. So then that way, when I say what I need to say of how I'm feeling what I'm going through, they know exactly how to respond.
Chris Rainey 11:29
Because sometimes when you're when I share that, you know people don't want to say the wrong thing, and they don't know what you need. So be very clear about that. That's a really, what did you find out about yourself? Was it something from your background, like you mentioned? Or was it, you know, a chemical imbalance? Because obviously, that's also something and it is very small, very small percentage from what I see. But from what I understand from the science, what was it you discovered about yourself,
Jasmine 11:53
trauma, a lot of trauma that I just didn't deal with a lot of things growing up a lot of things even as an adult that I had gone through that were just so unexpected, and not dealing with that. And you know, there's a saying that says, if you don't deal with your trauma, your trauma will deal with you. And so I didn't deal with a lot of trauma. And it started dealing with me, and it started manifesting in many ways. And now, you know, I'm proud to say that I have therapy. Every week, I see a psychiatrist every few weeks, and I talk about the trauma now. And now I have a healthy outlet to deal with it and try to piece together, why make the decisions that I do now and how that was connected to my experiences growing up?
Chris Rainey 12:43
Um, impact your role as a HR leader, and heading up DNI because you're going through your own challenges. Yeah, personally, and then now you're taking on a lot of responsibility for your people. And their challenges. How do you balance that?
Jasmine 12:57
I show up as myself? And I'm honest, you know, I think a lot of times as leaders, especially HR leaders, we put this pressure on ourselves that we have to be perfect. We're HR, we're the leader, we have to be perfect. And we have all the answers. And that's not true. I'm a human just like everyone else. And I have no problem saying, I have mental health challenges. I may not feel good every day, I don't always have the answers. I'm trying to figure out just like you're trying to figure it out. And just being honest in that. And I've learned kind of similar to you that I get a lot more respect when I'm honest. And it gives people the space to say, I'm not feeling that great either. Like on my team, you know, like, there's some times someone will say, Jasmine, I'm in a good space today, I just need to take a half day. I wonder if I didn't, you know, say that I'm struggling every now and then would they have felt comfortable saying that to me? I don't know. And so it's made me a lot more empathetic. I think it's made me a lot more relatable. It's helped me to build trust within the organisation. It's helped to kind of put that barrier down of this is HR bit scary. And now it's like, hey, that's HR, but they're normal, and they're cool. And they get it and they really are people first because look at how they talk about their challenges. It's actually been really good for me to share how I'm feeling which I would have never thought.
Chris Rainey 14:23
So I'm laughing because it's so true, right? Like, and we can laugh about it now because we're kind of on both sides of it. But like it makes you stronger. And as you said, like how often do you see vulnerability from HR leaders in my experience? Not Not often, both but both working in, in many companies also during the show, sometimes sort of this and it's like this unspoken expectation to always be on path. Yeah, like you said, right? Even more so in HR.
Jasmine 14:53
It can be so lonely and I'm so glad you said that because we like we need a place to go and you know what I actually started I'm giving my team breather days because the work is so emotionally heavy every day, listening to people, you know, navigating tough situations, creating a culture that gives people joy, you know, you're constantly giving, giving, giving, giving all day, and it's like, who who's pouring into me? Yeah. And so I recognise that my team can get burnt out very quickly. So we get, I give them all one breather day a month, they can use any day that they want. And they just take a day to breathe. I love that. Because it's just, it's so much
Chris Rainey 15:35
what are some of the other lifestyle changes you made? You also mentioned the therapy, what are some of the other tools that you've got at your disposal,
Jasmine 15:43
so I have kind of like a mental health, I call it tribe mental health board. But it's a group of people that I have, who I trust tremendously. And their job is to make sure that I am communicative, and that I am alive. They have done an amazing job, if they don't hear from me from, you know, like, say it's been a day and I haven't responded to a text message. They have a whole chain of command. It's like, have you talked to Jasmine? Have you talked to Jasmine? Okay, also in this text? Do you near live nearby her you stopped by? It's it's like I'm constantly covered and protection by the people that I love. And that's something I mean, I can't lie. Sometimes it gets hard. Sometimes I'm like, I'm a grown adult. I don't need anybody checking on me, you know? But I know also
Chris Rainey 16:33
very well, yeah, exactly. How did you fare for the last few years, you know, COVID, and everything else happening?
Jasmine 16:41
The pandemic actually really helped me a lot, because it made me realise how much I liked being home and how much anxiety it was giving me to travel. You know, I was living in New Jersey at the time, and then I would catch the bus. And then I would catch the bus to the train station that I would take the train downtown, and then I would still walk two minutes to my job. And I didn't realise all the anxiety that that was giving. Yeah, yes. So then you get to your work. And I'm like, I have nothing left to give. But no, I have to be this person, I have to be happy. And I have to be. And so, you know, when it was, you know, mandated that people had to start working from home or remotely, I found safety in that. And then when it became the norm, I was like, actually thriving in this environment. But it can be very lonely. And the onus has been on me to do things that be my soul, whether that's what you did this past weekend, going out, being in nature, just getting fresh air, or reading a good book, or just having a nice dinner with some girlfriends. And so that's one thing I have had to kind of push myself on, but the safety of being in my own space, and not having to go through all of that stimulus or stimuli rather, just to get to my location, who it has. It has done wonders for my anxiety.
Chris Rainey 18:05
So you so you have 100% remote role. I do. Yeah. What do you what do you think it takes to be a successful HR executive, if working fully remote,
Jasmine 18:17
I think it takes discipline. And I think it takes passion. For me, I genuinely really love my job. I love being an HR, I love being in this role. I love being in this position. And so as you can tell by the beginning of our conversation, I do have a lot of energy when I wake up in the morning, because I'm excited to do my job. And so I think that plays a significant part, just the fact that I it fills me with joy. And then the discipline part. I mean, there's distractions everywhere. You know, when you're in the office, it's you know, your distraction for the most part, or maybe your colleagues. But when you're at home, the dog, the doorbell is ringing, your cell phone, there's music, there's this, there's
Chris Rainey 18:56
this Netflix, there's
Jasmine 19:01
there's there's some shoes and you can go out walk, you know, there's all these different things. And so for me, I don't think that there's anything wrong with distraction. I think distraction can be healthy. But making sure you're intentional about having healthy distraction is is the key. Like, if you need a break, go outside and take a walk. Maybe you will do when I turn on the TV for a couple of minutes, play that music, maybe read a chapter from the book, but be focus on what your goals are for the day. And every day. I'm very intentional about looking at my checklist, what are the things that I need to accomplish looking at my calendar, see how I can definitely space out my time so I can build in the time for me. And that's something that I'm not great at that I'm still learning how to do where I'm just back to back to back from 8:30am until 6:30pm Because half of my team is in California. So there's a three hour time difference. And sometimes I'm not good about building out that space for me of just taking a breath. And so that's kind of been one of my personal goals is is building out that focus time to take breaks, because I can get hyper focused. And then by the end of the day, I am just wiped out.
Chris Rainey 20:07
But listen, I can talk to you forever, but I go right out the podcast. Like, I feel like we need a seer. We need a series.
Jasmine 20:15
We could just go on and on. Yeah, like,
Chris Rainey 20:17
firstly, thank you so much for for sharing your truth is so important. And you've seen how it's made made use made you a better HR leader. It's made you a better friend. You know, it's made you a better partner, and also the impact that you're giving to the world, because it has been amplified for your story and your message. So I appreciate you coming on the show. And then I'll just leave with, you know, what would be your advice to anyone listening out there? And then where can people connect with you if they want to reach out and say, Hi,
Jasmine 20:48
my advice to people. And this is going to sound really cliche, but I want people to know that they are not alone. And when you are in that space, it can be the most loneliest feeling and it feels like you're battling these battles in silence by yourself. But you never know someone else's battles just like someone doesn't know your battles. So it's okay to say I'm not okay. Even if you don't go all the way into why you're not okay? It's okay to say you're not okay. I'd rather that than to you suffer in silence. And we don't get to see your light shine anymore. And if people want to connect with me, they can connect with me on LinkedIn, Jasmine, Francis, and I would love to receive any type of invites. I'm always down to connect with people to chat with people. So if you ever want to chat, whether it's about mental health, or HR, or D IB, I am all ears.
Chris Rainey 21:42
Yeah, we didn't even get started and the work that you're doing. But we didn't know where we didn't plan where we were going in this, which is why I love it the most. And I felt like it went where it needed to go. We'll save the rest for another podcast. But I appreciate you coming on. And I wish you all the best until next week.
Jasmine 21:57
Thank you. Thank you so much, Chris, thank you for giving me the space to be my authentic self and thank you for your vulnerability and sharing, you know your personal relationships and struggles. So it's a two way street. We provided for each other. Thank you.
Chris Rainey 22:10
That's how it goes. See you soon. Thank you
HR Leaders Newsletter
Sign up below and well send our weekly newsletter packed with actionable insights, podcasts, clips and compelling content directly to your inbox.
More from the HR Leaders Podcast
Steve Degnan, Advisor, Board Member, and former CHRO of Nestlé Purina.