Supporting Your Team Through Cancer in the Workplace
In this episode, Therese Procter, shares her personal journey with breast cancer, offering universal insights into its indiscriminate nature. She emphasizes the importance of equipping HR professionals with knowledge to support a diverse workforce and highlights the significant impact of breast cancer, paralleling it with prostate cancer data.
Join us in today’s episode as we welcome Therese Procter, Chief People Officer at Orgshaker, Global Advisor at Wagestream, and Chair & Co-founder of MeVie.
With her extensive background, including her role as former CPO of Tesco Bank, Therese brings invaluable insights into the workplace implications of breast cancer, sharing her personal journey and the critical lessons learned.
🎓 In this episode, Therese discusses:
How her own journey provides universal insights on the indiscriminate nature of cancer.
The importance of equipping HR professionals with knowledge to support an aging and diverse workforce.
A look at the significant data on breast cancer and its similarities to prostate cancer, highlighting its widespread impact.
Discover what emotional salary means – and how you can motivate employees beyond pay.
Great recognition is more than just a thank you program. By leveraging frequent and meaningful recognition, Achievers drives business results that matter to organizations like retention, productivity, and engagement. Our platform makes it easy for employees to recognize each other anywhere, whether in-office, remote, or on-the-go.
The Achievers Workforce Institute reveals that two-thirds of employees have one foot out the door in 2024. The top reason for job hunting? Better compensation. But money isn’t the whole story. Employees are seeking not only monetary salary, but emotional salary too.
Therese Procter 0:00
I didn't have the answers. I didn't have the plan. I didn't have the answers, I actually felt like I was rudderless telling my children was really hard. Next most difficult call was my parents around the age of 45. So it's likely that every company in the UK is going to have somebody of age in their workforce. And therefore, being more aware of that is more critical than ever.
Chris Rainey 0:29
Teresa, welcome to the show. How are you?
Therese Procter 0:30
I'm great. Thank you.
Chris Rainey 0:32
See you again.
Therese Procter 0:33
It's lovely to be here. I'm loving this new studio different from the last time we met. Right? It is it is. But the the sofas are still comfortable. Yeah, and coffee still good. So I'm not going to complain.
Chris Rainey 0:44
I mean, the problem is they get too comfortable. So like sometimes I'm like, chilled out. So you've been on a bit of a roller coaster. I have since that we last spoke in multiple ways, as well. But just talk to everyone about why you wanted to come back on the show and kind of the journey that you've kind of been on? Yeah,
Therese Procter 1:01
I've had I mean, this this week actually completes a very turbulent year that I had, in a very personal way. And I have shared it, I've been on social media and shared my journey. And I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And not to not to harp on just about my journey. But the reason that I thought it was important to talk about this is that breast cancer is a it's the most common cancer in the UK, 55,000 women get diagnosed each year, which is around one every 10 minutes. But what I wasn't aware of is that the second most common cancer is prostrate cancer. 52,000 men get diagnosed each year, which is close to one and in every 10 minutes also. So I want to almost take gender out of the conversation and talk about the impact of cancer at work. Because everybody's journey is unique, everybody is different. And I thought I was pretty aware, you know, for the last 20 odd years I've done Race For Life. I thought I knew all the facts. But I was so unaware. And I guess having the spotlight on my own journey made me think if I was in the position that I was in before as a CPO in a business. What is it that I would have wanted to know? Because I haven't got the answers. But what I have is now got all the questions that I wished I'd asked. Yeah. And And another reason is there is a very commercial reason to to be very aware of cancer and the impact at work, because it's covered from the moment that you're diagnosed under the Disability Discrimination Act. And therefore every employer has got to show their commitment to making adjustments where they're required and where people need that. So there is a commercial reason. And then there's a very obvious reason where the gravity of the workforce is changing. You know, we spoke before about midlife workers, you know, we've talked about the impact of what happens with the challenges and opportunities that you have. But when it comes to midlife workers, you know, 1/3 of the global workforce is over 50 With both breast cancer, and with prostate cancer, it reaches a peak in terms of diagnosis around the age of 45. So it's likely that every company in the UK is going to have somebody of age in their workforce, and therefore, being more aware of it is more critical than ever.
Chris Rainey 3:54
One of the things that struck me when you message me is, you know, as a chief people officer, and someone like myself also works in this space. Neither of us knew about a lot of this stuff. No, no, if you don't, right, and if the HR leaders don't, it's very unlikely that arrested leaders and and part of the organisation are going to understand this. It's
Therese Procter 4:12
so true. And I found that I found a couple of things. women talk about their situation a lot more than men. And I guess that's life, isn't it? You know, I found lots of forums that were helpful. And I learned a lot, you know, I mean, it was an education. It was like a master class, having it myself was like a master class. But there was so much more that I wish I knew. But in these forums, one of the things that struck me is there were so many people talking about workplace issues that they were facing, that I found myself trying to help, you know, strangers that I never knew. And because I wanted to find out the facts myself because there was so much that I thought what actually that person There's so many inconsistencies. The only thing that was consistent was the fact that people were treated so differently. What were they saying? What were their horror stories? There was some absolute horror stories where? Well, first of all, I think in some cases, it's still taboo to talk about. So I found that I remember one of my very first appointments, there was a lady sat next to me, she was very, very lovely. Her name was Lesley. But she hadn't told anybody at work about her diagnosis, because she said they wouldn't understand. And I said, Put, but if you have the conversation, surely they would understand if the donor I work with blokes they won't understand. And it's very personal, you know, I don't want I don't want him thinking about, you know, where I've got breasts, you know, where I've got cancer, it's in my breast, and she said, No, I just don't want to have the conversation. There are other people that I met that, you know, their pay had stopped after a couple of weeks, and they were on SSP. Affordability is a big, big factor, you know, you are, if you have treatment, depending on everybody's journey is different. But you know, if you have treatment, which involves chemotherapy, or radiotherapy surgery, you know, you're on a, you're on a treadmill of lots of different appointments and situations that you have to come across. And some of those leave you very, very fatigued. So your ability to be able to process and function goes down. You know, it just does, it has an impact on you. So I think the horror stories were from people that had spoken to the powers that be at work. And by the way, HR, you know, didn't come out as being very popular at all, in terms of feeling that they felt safe to be able to talk line managers were the people that that, you know, that one goes to, but being able to being able to know, am I going to get paid? What does that look like? Am I going to get time off the appointments? You know, because so many people have cancer, you can almost trivialise it. And one of the things I also learned is that people were saying, Well, I got compared to another person that had cancer. And apparently, they turned up to work through all their treatment. So the same is expected of me. That's like a one size fits all. So yeah. And of course, everyone is so different. And I think there was you know, so there was some real horror stories, there was also some very encouraging stories, where companies paid all the way through treatment, you know, and people were treated very much as an individual, what do you need, you know, how can we support you? So there's some great examples of employers. But on balance, there was more that were poor. And this point around making adjustments supporting helping being covered by the DDA that was really an unmistakable
Chris Rainey 7:50
by DDA, like what do you mean by covered isn't they can't be let go doesn't mean that the company's not going to pay them for salary?
Therese Procter 7:57
No, no it but but it what it does mean is when you're covered by the Disability Discrimination Act, and actually cancer is one of the only things that automatically qualifies you for it straightaway on diagnosis, MS is another. But from the moment that you get that there is a responsibility by your employer to make adjustments that are reasonably required. Now, that doesn't have to be money, but it could be time off and support for shifts, it could be, you know, if you say, I feel so tired one in three, even at the end of the journey, you know, there's facts that say that one in three have got cancer fatigue. Now, again, that doesn't matter whether you're male or female, that happens. So you know, it could be that the tasks that you require, aren't tasks that people can do. So what is it that you could offer that could help a person? Okay, that makes sense. You know, I also heard that people just left work because they've got a cancer diagnosis and know anything they didn't know, they didn't know that they could ask for support, didn't know that they could ask for help. You know, there's others that say, now I've had it, should I put it on my CV? You know, I've been let go, what's it gonna look like? So that whole navigating what you do to manage yourself in employment or outs of employment is is, is something that I've, you know, I kind of knew it, but I never had the conversation about it. I never I can never recall. even thinking about it in that way. You know, when I was working in corporate life,
Chris Rainey 9:29
never before by that point, you just said like, why would someone discriminate against hiring because I had cancer? Wow. Because,
Therese Procter 9:35
you know, you know, yourself when someone gives you, you know, someone has a conversation and you you talk to them about a diagnosis that you've got, immediately. The other person doesn't really know what to say, you know, they say they're sorry, but you know, the head goes on one side, you know, and you get everything from kind of like, you know, how long you've got to live to hopefully quite a long time to It kind of like, oh, well, you know, everyone gets it. So you know, the conversation and the dichotomy around responses is is unbelievable.
Chris Rainey 10:11
And I assume that reaction of what you said earlier as well, that HR teams and managers aren't trained on any of this stuff. I
Therese Procter 10:19
don't think they are trained. No, I think there is an assumption that long term sickness is put into a category that says, The GP or your primary care outside the workplace will be the right people to talk to, you know, because you're going into some kind of a process, which is true, that does happen, you know, your GP is the one that's supportive. But I think interventions that you can raise awareness at work, you know, making sure that you know, where people can go for help, making sure that if people have got appointments for assessments, like prostate cancer, or breast cancer, that they turn up for those appointments, you know, very often people will say, I mean, I heard people saying that they didn't go to mammograms that were, you know, that they were reminded about, but they didn't go to them because they felt a bit overweight, so they didn't want to take their clothes off. So I mean, I've been amazed at the comments that people have made, but also, you know, when people say, Oh, I haven't got time to do the mammogram this week, I haven't got time to make that happen. You know, in my case, in August 22, I had a mammogram where the results were clear. So for me, that was me for the next few years, I didn't think anything of it. Fast forward to the January, I started to get a pain. And I remember I was I was working in New York. And I was there for a week. And I had a severe pain. And I know I can be a drama queen. So you know, straightaway, I thought I was having a heart attack. And so I took myself off to one of these walk in centres. And the first question that the GP there asked me was, when was the last time you had a mammogram? Now, there were no lumps? I didn't feel any lumps at all. And I said, Well, August just gone. And he said, Oh, look, it won't be that. But keep an eye on it. Never thought any more of it, the pain went away, I kind of thought maybe it was just the flight or indigestion. And then a couple of weeks later, the pain came back again. And it's one of those things you put it to the back of your head must go and see the GP. So in March last year, I did saw the GP, she examined me and she said, Well, we'll refer you for your heart. Let's just see if there's anything going on there. And I said, Well, actually, could I have a mammogram as well? And she said, you don't need it. You had one in August. And I said, but I had like one I've got something, you know, and she said that she felt again, and she said, I can't see any reason why you'd want this. So when I got home, I contacted a consultant that I knew, through some charity work that I'd done. And he said, Come and see me next week, I was going away actually, I was going to Amsterdam, and I said, Oh, I can't really make Thursday 830 Because I am Could I come another day? And he said no, come in and get a later flight. Yeah, I did. I got a later flight. I am so pleased that I went that day because I had a mammogram from the mammogram, I was told that I needed to have an ultrasound which I had that day. And from there I had a biopsy. And at that point, four lumps were found. So I had four tumours, they were all individual. And they were quite sizable. That was a shock considering that in the August before that, I had nothing. And you know, I went on to have a mastectomy. And actually, when I had the mastectomy, they found a fifth tumour. I wasn't prepared for any of
Chris Rainey 13:48
that. It was you know, who will listen to them. And I know what is ms ectomy. So a mastectomy is
Therese Procter 13:52
where you cancer in the breast is in the tissue. So it's only in the tissue. So when they when they took away the breast, it's called a mastectomy. And with that, they take all of the breast tissue away, which gives you the best chance of cancer not returning. For me at that point. It was in my lymph nodes also. So I had an operation that took my lymph nodes away from underneath my arm, which was quite painful. And then I had the mastectomy as well. And then, you know, I was very, very fortunate that I was able to have reconstruction at the same time. Okay.
Chris Rainey 14:31
Was that private NHS? That was all NHS
Therese Procter 14:35
interest. And even though I had private care, it was all NHS. Most
Chris Rainey 14:40
people think most people would would assume you to go private. Why? Yeah.
Therese Procter 14:43
And there were moments where I wondered whether or not I should, but I had absolute faith in the consultant that I had, who was NHS and every point along the way, even talking to breast care nurses and talking to them Learn, I was saying, How could private health care, you know, should I use it? And my consultant assured me that the care that I was gonna get was going to be the best. And I had confidence in that. Now, I know there's others that might think well, actually, you know, if I've got it, I'd use it. And I think everyone's very, very personal at every point along the way, I felt that I was listened to, I felt I was treated as an individual. And I didn't feel like I was the number there was no reason yeah, I can't applaud
Chris Rainey 15:32
reception, they get a lot of, they get a lot of, I don't swear,
Therese Procter 15:37
they do a lot of stick. Yeah, they do get a lot of stick, they do get a lot of waiting list. And I was seen within two weeks, wow, for an appointment with the with the oncologist. And my operation was in the May, the only reason that I had to wait for that is I had to have the lymph node work done. So I felt like I was every part of the journey. felt like I'd got a date, I knew what I needed to do. I kind of looked upon it a little bit like a work project. If I'm being honest. You know, you Yeah, I see. It's because that's the way I coped, right. You know, you've
Chris Rainey 16:16
been all smiles and you have a super positive person, but like, how did you deal with this emotionally?
Therese Procter 16:20
The hardest thing? Yeah, the hardest thing, it's
Chris Rainey 16:23
not pretend it's like, an easy journey you've been on? You know,
Therese Procter 16:27
the hardest thing was to tell my children. So you know, Shannon, is the eldest. And you know, she's she's 28. Tara was 25. To make the phone call to those two was really hard. Yeah. And hard, because you want to be brave, hard, because you don't know what the outcome is at that point. And hard because you don't even know what your plan is. And for me, I've always been in control of a plan, always, you know, what am I going to do? Right? This is how I'm going to make it work. I know the answer. For this. I didn't have the answers. I didn't have the plan. I didn't have the answers, I actually felt like I was rudderless. So telling my children was really hard. I think the next most difficult call was my parents. So you know, very privileged, they're both still alive. They're 85. They're 86. Now, but, you know, to pick up the phone and talk to them, and I sister had lung cancer five years prior to that. So it was a big blow for them. And thank God Maria is really well, she's fantastic. And a real role model for me. And also, for
Chris Rainey 17:37
me, helpful mean, having someone who's been through it, yeah,
Therese Procter 17:41
experiences is huge experience of life is huge, because you learn like I said, it was a masterclass for me, you learn and you educate yourself as you go through the journey. You can only do that through people that can share their story. And that's why sharing and networks are so so powerful. What would
Chris Rainey 18:01
you say someone like common misconceptions that you came across that people think that you realised and untrue perhaps,
Therese Procter 18:07
and I think some of the misconceptions are that you're not gonna be able to do anything for yourself?
Chris Rainey 18:12
Okay, helpless, almost. Yes. Yeah. And
Therese Procter 18:16
some of the things you mean by that. So there, there are things where people say, oh, you know, well, you might be able to do that, Oh, my God, you might you're not able to do that, when you've got cancer, you're not able to walk, you're not able to do this. So there was a, there was kind of like, a camper, people that were in big seas, just your written off, you know, get things done for all you want. Don't want to spend any money on that, you know, is it worth it? I'm still gonna be here, I hope. So you know, this, there was that? Versus you're, you're just the same, you're smiling. You're putting makeup on? So you're just saying, you know, and actually, you never know how person has an issue. Ask them? Sure. Don't assume. So there are days that I had fantastic days. And there was other days where I just thought, I don't feel so great. Today, my way of coping, is to talk, you know, and to share and to laugh and to find joy in small things. There were days when that was quite tough. And, again, everyone's different, but don't ever assume you know, be in the moment with someone and don't ever assume you know, what they're thinking. Ask them what advice
Chris Rainey 19:22
as part of what you just said, What advice would you give to people who find out a colleague or a friend or a family How does I'm sure there's this natural natural approach that you want to tread on eggshells, or, or or you don't want to or ask them constantly How are you all the time which maybe you get will get tiring? I don't know. I'm just throwing stuff out there. But like what how would you best advise people to approach that
Therese Procter 19:50
and one of the biggest learnings I had some years ago I was a trustee for a charity for teenagers with cancer teens. You nites is 15 years old, it was started by a friend of mine, Debbie Pazhani. And Karen Millen, who was the fashion or is the fashion designer. And I learned that for teenagers, and these are children from the age of 13 to 24. And remember, cancer doesn't discriminate, you know, very young children. That's leukaemia, but you can get cancer at any age, and it doesn't discriminate whether you're male or female. One of the things that I, you know, really struck me when I used to speak to the teenagers is that they didn't feel that their colleagues at school or their pals at school knew how to talk to them, you know, we boys that send them text messages, which was just like a power, you know, emoji of a, you know, with girls, it was kind of like, Oh, my God, you know, that poor person's lost their hair, they were treated very, very differently. And one of the things that they told me is they just wanted to be treated the same. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 20:59
that's what I mean, they just wanted to be treated the same, don't ya don't? That's what I meant about the train not treading on eggshells around them. Yeah, just treat me the same. Yeah, don't write me off.
Therese Procter 21:09
Yeah, exactly. And I remember going out with a group of girls and saying to them, you know, we were around at someone's house. And, and one of my friends said, look, I think everyone's gonna be a bit nervous about, you know, how to tune whatever. And I said, I'm still the same person. And, you know, I said, As I walked through the door, you know, like, I'm here, I'm here to have a really nice time. Yeah, I can
Chris Rainey 21:30
tell you going to not everyone is going to be as open as you are to be brave enough to be like, Come on, everyone. Let's have fun. Forget. Yeah, don't worry about saying XYZ. But I'm sure a lot of people just hold it in.
Therese Procter 21:41
Yeah. And it is being supportive to people, you know, when when you have those types of conversations, what I found is that by being open, it gave people the opportunity, I think, to open up themselves. And I think that's what first line managers can do. If they ask a person how they are. And a person says, Yeah, I'm fine. I'm good, I'm good, thanks. It closes down the conversation. If you show some empathy and say, I've never been in your situation, I don't know what it's like, help me be human raising NASA completely different conversation, that person can then really open up
Chris Rainey 22:25
stands that you're you're not just asking the question, just for the sake of it. Yeah, that's what it feels like. You're just really out of a handbook. How are you? Yeah.
Therese Procter 22:31
And very often a process or a policy will lead you to do that, rather than having those real conversations. And like I said, I didn't know what to expect. One of the one of the things that happened to me is is a lovely story, actually, it's a lady called Molly, she's 91. Molly got breast cancer 25 years ago. So you know, for me, she's a real inspiration as well. And Molly had a diagnosis and she had a mastectomy and reconstruction. So when I was diagnosed, she got in contact with me and said, Oh, you know, come and I'd like to have, you know, tea with you. And you went round to her house. And now bearing in mind now she was 90 at the time. She said, Would you like to see my breasts? I said, I thought you'd don't need to do that. You know, thank you. But you don't need to do that. Anyway, she proceeded to, you know, show me and one of the things that she did, she said, I've got a little gift for you as well, for my surgery and everything if it wasn't a what, no.
Chris Rainey 23:36
I don't know what it was. Before and after. It's
Therese Procter 23:40
it was a little box. Yeah, the box was about this size. So it's a little box that she put on the table. She said, I'd like you to have this because once you've had your mastectomy, and your reconstruction, it might be helpful for you. So I'm oblivious to this and I'm like, oh, and I'm thinking what's in the box? What is in the box? Anyway, she showed me you know, she showed me her. You know, did I want to feel no thank you. That's fine. Thanks very much. And but I couldn't wait you know, being the person that I am. Can't wait to see what was it like what was in that box? Yeah, it was a silicone nipple.
Chris Rainey 24:16
I was gonna say that actually. No, he said my truth is what I thought was in the boxes something like what you just said Valcyte Surely not. Said I was like, no crystal crazy.
Therese Procter 24:30
It was a lot of people bought me flowers. That was the most unique gifts. That was the most unique gift I ever get
Chris Rainey 24:36
me I was like, No, I can't stop pause. It was the most unique gift but you can so like, she's so sweet because I'm sure. I'm sure I mean, I can assume one of the biggest or one of the things just thinking like obviously you're losing your your breasts and yeah, the impact that that's gonna have Right.
Therese Procter 24:56
Like, oh, it was you know that Everyone should have a Mali in their life. You know, I didn't. And by the way, she got married last year. Oh, wow, to a guy that was as a bit younger than her. But I mean, she's found happiness. You know, I mean, she's just a joy. But you, you talked about what are some of the horror stories, women and men have talked to me about feeling like they've been amputated. Now, that's a really, really strong word, it's a word that I would have associated with war, I wouldn't have associated it with cancer. But there are real strength in how people feel about their bodies, when, when they've had a change. And I wasn't aware of that I wasn't aware people felt like that. I also have made friends with with lots of different people. And some of that's online. But you know, I also learned that for some women, and men, but more women, some of their husbands, you know, that that their relationship has broken down completely, because the man sees the woman differently. The woman sees herself differently. And for many men, going through their journeys, their wives have treated them differently. Now, that is so sad to think that you could love someone, you could have a wonderful relationship. But illness puts fear into into both of you to a point where your relationship breaks down at the very time you need when you need that support and that love around you. That's
Chris Rainey 26:40
horrible to him. And like the last thing I would want my wife to think about going through that is like, what is he going to think of me? Because my boob in there or, you know, whatever, or vice versa, as well, when you're in that time where you need done the most that Chris?
Therese Procter 26:53
It's exactly, it's exactly like that. So if you, if you think about your own family unit, there should be safety within that. If there's moments where it's not safe, you start to question it. If you're then at work, and you've got those insecurities, anyway, and you're coming into the workplace, you know, your productivity isn't going to be great. Your ability to really focus isn't going to be there. And you're not going to feel great. You know, you're just not going to feel good. It's probably
Chris Rainey 27:26
going to feel trapped. Right? Because you're not gaining both places. Exactly. Exactly. I'm going home to this. I'm going to work through this. Yeah. Because I've always said that to Shane in a team like my home is my safe space. Yes. Recharge and vulnerable and be you'll be okay. Sometimes I've had a rough week this week, even with my anxiety and stuff like that. And I was saying stash last night as I'm struggling. Yeah, like, that's trying to describe it as like a pressure cooker. And I was like, there's not much room left in this pressure cooker this week. So I need to relax. And she was she was like, Cool. No worries, I got you. But like, if I didn't have that I had didn't have that. And I was struggling at home and at work. That's really tough. Yeah, put you in that place.
Therese Procter 28:09
And you asked about the impact on others. So you know, I again, I knew that from from teenagers, their siblings feel this is a really, this comment that I'm going to make is quite strange, but people feel left out. So siblings feel left out because all of a sudden the person with cancer is getting all the attention. Now, it's not. Of course, they would never want their brother or sister to have cancer. But all of a sudden mum and dad's attention is somewhere else. So you feel a bit isolated. Yeah. And I wonder if in the home environment, you know, the wife or the husband, the partner, the girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, I think if you're, if that person is going through a journey where there's lots and lots of focus on them, it's almost like well, you know, I'm just here to hold the pieces. So there's, there's so much in terms of those conversations, that if there was a way in the workplace, of being aware of of some of those scenarios, just being able to think what could we do to help now, you've got Macmillan Cancer, Breast Cancer Now, cancer research, UK, all of those forums are fantastic. But it doesn't take much for any of us to raise our awareness and our education and our knowledge on the topic of cancer and what comes with it, because we're all going to face it not not through personal diagnosis, I hope but you're gonna face it through others, and certainly you'll experience it in the workplace.
Chris Rainey 29:56
What What advice would you give to HR teams and leaders
Therese Procter 29:59
well Well, I haven't I haven't, as I said, right from the beginning, I haven't got the answers. But there are a lot of things now that I would have put in place that I looking back, I totally, and the biggest one is around. Well, the first thing is be in the moment. So every time a person has spoken to me about cancer, I must admit, I've put everybody in the same bucket. So they've got cancer. That means that interesting. If you go on Cancer Research UK website, there's over 100 of common cancers that people can experience. So it's not one size fits all. And that reason
Chris Rainey 30:37
you realise that it's because you went through it, it's because I went through it myself. I had conversations with so many of you just
Therese Procter 30:43
for cancer was one bucket. For me, it was
Chris Rainey 30:47
unfortunately, you just don't have the knowledge. Yeah,
Therese Procter 30:49
so it totally, I think, yeah, totally, I think it's it's Don't, don't put everyone in that same bucket, everything's different. I've written down some things that I think if I were what I would do, again, there's 10 of them, which I know you can put on there afterwards. And never never miss an opportunity to share support. Whilst, whilst it is common, don't trivialise it because everybody's journey is different. Everyone's journey is different. And don't compare, just because x was able to come to work through their treatment doesn't mean that that person who's just told you about their diagnosis is going to have the same, you know, the same response. Sure. Because because it's it is different. The power of networks, you know, I think there's a show on TV, that fishing show, it's White House Mortimer. And I'm not a big a big fishing fan. But one of the things I learned from that is that you've got these two guys that talk about fishing. But they also talk about a shared experience that they both had, which was bypass surgery. So during their conversations about fish, they sort of talk about their day. But you know, whether it's the way men deal with it or not, my
Chris Rainey 32:07
stepdad actually goes fishing with his friends to see what do they talk about. That's the time where they talk about Stan relationships for how to get on with it wise, and like that's their space, I'll say, I'm just not trivial. I'm not gonna put everyone in a box. But just you made me smile when you mentioned that. Because whenever he's going off on his fishing trip, I'm like fun because I know it's his time to decompress and actually have man time where he can do it. And they do that overfishing, and they bond that way. And that's just that's what he does. It's
Therese Procter 32:35
such a good thing. I mean, and in the workplace, you know, companies are great at supporting, you know, stand up for cancer and Movember and breast cancer awareness month. But there's not many organisations that have cancer networks. And I would say, you know, gender neutralise it?
Chris Rainey 32:56
Oh, yeah, it doesn't,
Therese Procter 32:57
it's not whatever you're facing as a as a woman. My experience for the men that have reached out is they go through the same trauma as a man. Why
Chris Rainey 33:07
do you think they just think there's not a big enough need for it? Definitely, we're not doing it, or,
Therese Procter 33:12
you know, a lot of people that once they've completed their treatment, you know, they don't want to talk about it's in the past, I see that you're living with it every day. You know, I mean, even I'm a positive person, but there probably isn't a day that doesn't go past or just think, hope I'm okay, you know, because those thoughts come in and out of your head.
Chris Rainey 33:32
How often do you have to get checked in again, to make sure everything's
Therese Procter 33:36
so I have, I have bone infusions three year, and I'm on tablets for the next 10 years. And that, hopefully, will be everything that I need to keep everything on infusion. So bone infusion is, is it's like having an intravenous drip. But one of the things that cancer can do is it can weaken your bones. And so one of the things they do to protect your bones not in every situation, but certainly mine is to give me a bone infusion three times a year, okay. And, and that gives the bones a real boost, which is good. And then the tablets that I'm on, I'm on a tablet called letrozole. And I'm on that for the next 10 years and new side effects of that do
Chris Rainey 34:21
you have to deal with?
Therese Procter 34:22
There are you know, with any medication, you take this side effects. But I think if you are on something, I was told that if you're on something that doesn't work for you, talk to your oncologist, they'll find something else that does that. That's why I'm asking Yeah, so you know, we're very early intervention and diagnosis is like never before in the UK. Now. You know, it's great. There is more and more awareness. And there are more cases because people are being checked. But I think there's also this thought that if but certainly from from medical provision, nobody wants you to suffer. So if you're in pain, if something's not working, my experience says they'll try everything they can to get you on something that that will work. And again, being aware of that, you know, I mean, I say all my cancers gone, that's what I say, because that's how I deal with it. But I'm very aware that I'm on treatment to make sure make sure it doesn't come back. And that's for me, that's a real positive. And the other. The other thing is that I will have annual mastectomies, but on the other side, because like I said earlier, there's no breast tissue and the other side so that it will be all on the other side. And that's good, because it's monitoring, you know, to make sure that there's no, there are no risks in the future. So, yeah, if you're called that, I mean, that's the biggest thing that I can say as well. You know, if you're called for an appointment,
Chris Rainey 35:52
make sure you take it, I distracted you if you want to attend sorry, yeah, the network's
Therese Procter 35:57
The other thing I am the so the network at work, I would definitely put something like that in place. And the other thing that I learned on one of the forums was this thing called a DPP, which is a daily positive post. And I kind of saw it in the beginning, I thought I'd never get caught up in any of that, you know, why people sharing a daily positive post, and it'd be a picture of maybe a daughter's wedding or, you know, a day out or a glass of wine or, and I was just, you know, not in my world, I wouldn't be doing dpps. Well, guess what, you know, what, some of those days I lived for what people posted? Because it was feel good. Yeah. So again, you can introduce nice things that work in your environment in your organisation, the daily positive post was fab, train and educate those who support others, you know, going back to your point, you don't know, unless you ask, you have to have meaningful conversations, you have to look at your policies. First of all, you have to be aware that it's even covered by the DDA. You know? And what is a reasonable adjustment? You know, what are we doing to support people? There's lots of information. I am, it led me, you know, that particular point led me to write some articles around, what do you do when you get a diagnosis that work? What happens with the treatment at work? And then how do you return to work and post post treatment? More men reached out to speak to me about their circumstances, then women, really, so women wanted to say, Oh, this is brilliant, you know, this is great HR professionals. This is, you know, this has really helped me. But there were so many men that said, this is my situation, I didn't know this, you know, what would you do if you're in my situation. So there is definitely a need to neutralise and de gender, the conversation and talk about it in totality. So look at your processes, look at the adjustments, raise awareness to everyone, you know, use the opportunities, like stand up for cancer, breast cancer, awareness, Race for Life, etc. give people time off, we've spoken about that take gender out of the conversation, we've spoken about that. Every person's unique. And I guess my biggest learning in all of this was that I know I've become a lot more humble as a result of of having cancer. I know I have I see the joy in lots of things that perhaps I didn't see before. But I think the biggest thing that anyone can do is just be kind. Just be kind to someone else. Because you don't know if that's the person that's decided not to speak up or tell anyone that they've got cancer and try and hide it. If you don't know what anyone's going through. It could be someone who is completely flooded this week and their anxiety are off the scale in terms of how they're feeling. But I know, it sounds so simple, doesn't it? But to just share a smile, show your care, be kind. I know, it's it's taught me to do a lot more of that than I was doing before. You have.
Chris Rainey 39:10
I'm sure it gives you a completely different outlook on life. And having more of an attitude of gratitude. It's totally, totally not really seen it probably just take for granted. It
Therese Procter 39:22
is it's the joy. It's the joy in the smallest of things. It's the noticing something, it's it's looking up. I went to London the other day, and I forgot to take my phone I left it in the car completely by accident, you know, and I felt for the first 10 minutes like my arm had been cut off and maybe I should just turn around and go back because how was I going to manage without my phone. I looked around there was eight people in my coverage. Every single one of them was on their phone, not one person not one person looked up. So it gave me time to look at them, you know to people watch which I love doing but to look out The window to just see stuff and just think you know what, actually today's really nice day? I wouldn't have seen that. I don't mean looking down. I don't mean scrolling. So yeah. Oh, yeah, that's
Chris Rainey 40:10
such a good point where i How often are we actually truly present in the moment? With this glued like the second you leave a location, you're on your phone, and then you back in a meeting or on a zoom call, like we said earlier? Like, it's also, for example, on the importance of getting together in person, like we discussed earlier. Yeah. And there's no mobiles. There's no zoom, and you just present moment we're truly present. Yeah, I kind of learned now hung with my daughter, Robin. Like, just because I'm in the same room as that doesn't mean I'm present. No, because you can be on a mobile, you can be on a call, you can be distracted. So now I try my best just to leave my phone somewhere completely different in the house and like, just be present in the moment with her. Yeah.
Therese Procter 40:48
Get into her Oh, yeah, into her world. And I think that's that, you know, that's one of the things that I'm saying, when you're being when you're present. You're aware. So it's not like, oh, yeah, I've got to talk to that person. And they're up very well. Oh, my God, poor me. And she's not about you. Whenever you're talking to somebody that's got something to tell you. It's about them. So how do you make sure you show up? And you give them the respect that they deserve? As they tell you, whatever it is that they're going to tell you? Because it's a privilege to be on the receiving end to hear it? Yeah,
Chris Rainey 41:26
yeah, that's a good point. It's a privilege. Yeah. A lot of people see it as like a burden or stress is privileged, and was willing to open up and, and
Therese Procter 41:35
feel safe enough that they're in a position that you're going to accept whatever it is that they're going to say.
Chris Rainey 41:42
Is there anything that we haven't spoke about? Do you think it's really important that we've missed?
Therese Procter 41:49
No, I think it's, it's, I go back to what I said at the beginning, you know, I don't have the answers. But as a HR professional, there were some things that I thought I knew which I didn't. And I wish I'd known. I've known them. And if I had my time, again, I would continue to keep this conversation going. And I would encourage people to, you know, reach out to you reach out to me and find out more than perhaps they know, without having to wait for a personal journey to put them in that position. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 42:27
When Yeah, well, listen, I appreciate you coming back. And I'm glad you've been great to see as well. And I love how the fact that you similar of our last conversation, you're always kind of you use you. Interesting, whenever I see that you're facing challenges, you use it as an opportunity to give back like the last one we did. Yeah, you wanted to make sure people were aware of then and now you're doing a similar thing. So thank you for that. I think well for everyone that's listening, as well. And you're doing the same again. It means it means a lot to people and even if there's one person or one a single individual that we can impact by having this conversation, it's going to be worth it. 100%
Therese Procter 43:08
Yeah, and thank you for the opportunity. All the best take.
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Rachel Druckenmiller, CEO of UNMUTED.