The 4 Stages of Hybrid Work

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In this episode, I'm joined by Ben Higgins, Managing Director, UK Head of HR at Société Générale.

Ben shares experiences in leading with empathy and vulnerability, emphasizing the importance of creating a safe space for employees in both physical and virtual environments. We delve into the significance of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in the workplace, and how it has become a focal point in recent years. The conversation also touches on the future of HR, with a look at how technology, AI, and hybrid work models are set to revolutionize the way we work.

Episode Highlights

How Covid Changed HR forever
The 4 stages of Hybrid Work
Why EQ is more important than IQ in leadership
How Société Générale are fostering Diversity and Inclusion at every level of the organisations for it’s 117,000 employees

Ben Higgins 0:00
My honest answer, you can make time if you want to, if you want it, you know, at the same time as being the head of HR of of SGX. In the UK, I was chair of our corporate foundation, our charity, I was chair of city HR and sitting on the board. I've got two young kids, I'm married. And I've got a social life outside of work. And I managed all of that. Maybe not perfectly my wife, by the way, nor my kids. Yeah. And I'm certainly no, I'm not perfect at anything here. But I think that if you really want to do something, yeah, you can absolutely do it. You've just got to invest the time and I think that's the word invest the time because you will get something out of it.
Chris Rainey 0:45
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the HR leaders podcast. On today's episode, I'm joined by Ben Higgins, who is a managing director and UK Head of HR at society generale. During the episode, Ben discusses how COVID Change HR forever the four stages of hybrid work, why EQ is more important in IQ in leadership, and how society general are fostering diversity and inclusion at every level of the organisation for as 117,000 employees. As always, before we jump into the video, make sure hit the subscribe button, turn on notification bell and follow on your favourite podcast platform. With that being said, let's jump in. Welcome to the show. Ben, how are you?
Ben Higgins 1:22
Really good. Thank you for the invite.
Chris Rainey 1:23
Nice to see you just think you've only you've only really been 1520 minutes away from me this entire time.
Ben Higgins 1:28
Exactly. Now I've come and joined you. So thank you again.
Chris Rainey 1:31
Have you left the safety of Canary Wharf before to go?
Ben Higgins 1:34
Do you know what I don't live anywhere near London. So leaving Canary Wharf is a bit of a thing for me. Do you live? Essex countryside? Okay, so you can escape to somewhere where there's no mobile signal? No, no. No streetlights no real escape.
Chris Rainey 1:48
Yeah. So how'd you how'd you get into work what you were
Ben Higgins 1:51
long commute, driving, train, underground walking, but I'm used to it. Although I don't know how I used to do it five days a week.
Chris Rainey 2:00
Yeah. I used to travel from Canning Town into London Bridge everyday and a Jubilee line. And I say to people, 10 years of commuting on the Jubilee line will do something to your mental health. It's not a fun experience to be there. But Elizabeth mind making it a bit better. As well, before we get into it, any any any other topics. Tell us a little bit more about you personally, and your journey to where we are now.
Ben Higgins 2:24
So I started out in HR as a career back in tooth 2000 I joined Dresner Bank, which doesn't exist anymore, which then was bought to the Division I was in which was an asset management was in bought by Allianz. So I was there for four or five years. Then I went travelling, which is what I didn't do after uni. So I sort of got that bug out my system. Okay. And then I joined sock Jen in middle of 2005. And I done roughly, broadly speaking, I've done six, seven roles in the What is it now? 18 years, 18 years, 18 years with one firm. But I've had the most amazing career, multiple careers, multiple careers in the same discipline. But doing the sort of HR business partner then taking a bit of a risk and doing compensation, then taking some management roles. And then seven years ago, I stepped into the CPO role. And I've been doing that ever since. So it's been you know, they've been a great company. And I'm still there. I'm still enjoying it.
Chris Rainey 3:29
Yeah, amazing. Did you choose HR though, as a career choice? Or did you fall into it? It
Ben Higgins 3:34
was a purposeful move. And that's because my dad worked in HR. That's normally how it happens. And I remember I can still remember now and what it must be 30 years ago, seeing him layout papers on the kitchen table. And just being curious and saying what are you doing? Yeah, and, and hearing more about what his job was, which was personnel, then let's not get into that debate. And thinking that this is actually really quite interesting. And then you get the very basics. That's what the centre of a company is. It's in the assets of most companies. Other people. Yeah. And that's where my interest started. Then I did a I did a generalist degree at uni, but then focused a bit on HR. Nice. And then came into the city and started as I said, into to South tooth 2000
Chris Rainey 4:20
Have you have you used your dad over the years as like, did you use him as like an advisor? Over?
Ben Higgins 4:26
In the beginning? Yes. But I think as you grow in confidence, you and as you sort of get used to what it's like working in financial services, what it's like working in HR nowadays. Yes. So but in the beginning, certainly
Chris Rainey 4:37
you're probably updating him on how it's evolving exactly right away around. Yeah, cents on that point and how have you seen the role of the HR leader evolve, especially during COVID?
Ben Higgins 4:48
I think it's changed in actually quite a positive way. Since since COVID. The if you think of the Financial Services crash was four or Finance Directors for finance teams? Was there moments? Yeah. COVID Without doubt was the moment for, yes, leaders in resilience, but more and more was for people who work in HR. And I think it put us to the forefront of businesses, how do you deal with a crisis? And then how do you manage the new ways of working after that, and let's be honest, it's still in the press today. So we know that, you know, the whole topic of hybrid is probably in its fourth iteration. And that's what HR people HR folks are having to navigate alongside everything else that's going on the world. And let's be honest, at the moment, the world is a pretty complex place to be. So I think it really accelerated the role of HR in organisations, I'm convinced of it,
Chris Rainey 5:43
how did it impact you personally,
Ben Higgins 5:49
was a pretty stressful moment is it? You know, on a personal level, my wife is also in HR, she works for a space tech company. Okay, so two people, both working from home with two kids off school, both having to manage the the, the all the trials and tribulations of a crisis like that. It was very, very stressful, but it was extremely rewarding at the same time, because you are thrust into the limelight, and you know that your decisions and the way you make your decisions really count. So you make genuinely, you make a difference, because people are coming to you with all sorts of questions. And effectively, you are the ones, you know, navigating those and coming up with what's the best solution for the business? Yeah.
Chris Rainey 6:32
So obviously, HR kind of, in many companies have a rose to the occasion, or they left. And I saw a lot of transitions, a lot of people were taking early retirement, a lot of companies letting go of their CHR O 's who don't necessarily want the right person to lead them through this crisis. It was kind of a pivotal moment. For me,
Ben Higgins 6:53
undoubtedly, yeah, it was it was a really pivotal moment. And we as a profession had to really move into the next gear. I know it's you people say that, but I've never experienced a change like that in terms of the demands of the business on what you do. But also, the change in actually your what your workload is, on a day to day basis. And you become and actually it's continued to be a crisis manager. So now I'm actually taking personally a leading role in other crises that we've had, because people know that the the centre of a firm like ours is course we have our clients, but it's people that are creating, yeah, creating the solutions for our clients. And that's what we're there to support.
Chris Rainey 7:36
You mentioned the fourth stage of hybrid work. What did you mean by that?
Ben Higgins 7:42
The crisis management, how did we react in in March to 2020. The second was of that immediate moment where we were released to go back to work. So how do we manage that? The third was the first sort of stage where we were trying to create some form of normality. So setting the boundaries, the structures, the frameworks, etc. Yeah. And why I say the fourth is now and we're seeing this with certain firms is they've trialled that four year, 18 months, they're feeling as to whether it's working or not, and they're trying something new, or they're adjusting it slightly. That's why I think we're in the fourth wave.
Chris Rainey 8:18
Yeah. Because we saw the wave of tech companies reversing back, didn't we, with Google Twitter, so many basically keep going. They all before it was like, All right, we embracing hybrid? Oh, actually, we want you all back now three days a week. And it kind of like it was like a wave, where every day. So another company announced the same thing, except that one just kind of followed everyone. It's just what it felt like anyway.
Ben Higgins 8:41
And I think we're still in the middle of that. And I think firms are still grappling with exactly what to do. And what's the best mix. You know, there was an article even I think, was yesterday, released by Stanford University. And what they said in that was that they analysed the productivity, which is pretty tricky, tricky to do, actually, but manage, looking at the productivity of firms who've gone hybrid, or have gone fully work from home and those that have gone fully work from home, productivity has dropped, but on the hybrid side, it stayed the same. And I'm a big believer in hybrid, I think it can work under the right conditions with the right commitment from managers. And that's a key part here. HR can set the boundaries to structure policies, etc. But it's managers that are deploying it and navigating it on a day to day basis. So that's the success. I think that that you really, you really need them onside to make it work.
Chris Rainey 9:33
What have you done to help support those managers? Because it's been tough. Like, I'll be honest, I struggled even to this day managing 100 team, you know, and that's not fun. I mean, we were prepared for, you know, taught or coached on before.
Ben Higgins 9:46
This was not this was not what we learned at uni. So what we did is, first of all, we weren't prescriptive from the top to say, everyone you must do this, which I know some firms did. So there's there's arguments for and against So what we did instead is we empowered our Xcode to say what mix of work in the office and working from home works best for you, your clients, your business, and so on. And then what we recommended that teams should do, but again, we didn't prescribe it. But funnily enough most teams route rolled with it was, we created a Social Charter. So what we said was, you're in this order clients come first, then the team, and then you personally, and try and set up your structure within your department to make sure that you deploy hybrid, but you don't forget that clients come first, then the team and then yourself. And then with the team, what's crucial here is the concept of an anchor day. So I'm sure there are different terms all firms deploy for it. But effectively, the day when you as a team come together, you make some effort to have a dialogue, to exchange ideas, to have lunch, to have a social, whatever it might be. And so we effectively helped to train our managers deploy this. And I have to say, on the whole, it's been super successful. It's an approach that some of our competitors have taken. I think we were we were quite early in the deployment of hybrid, actually, because we started it before COVID. And the reason we did this is we moved into a brand new building in the wolf. And we looked at the ratio of desks to people, we reduced it. And by doing that, we wanted to obviously deploy hybrid. So we started it before. So actually adjusting to a full work at home model or a hybrid model was something that was quite natural for us. And we've already done yeah, that step wasn't a wholesale shift. It was for us in the UK, you know, adjusting our model B, it was a big adjustment, but it was adjusting it nonetheless.
Chris Rainey 11:41
Yeah. Super interesting. What about engagement, how's hybrid infected engagement,
Ben Higgins 11:47
we measure that? I think to be to be really honest, we haven't done enough of hybrid to really know. That's my feeling. So far, the feedback that we get is, is really good. I think the the areas and this is an this is an industry issue rather than a an SG. Something I've identified at ESG is that managers have got to be really conscious of junior employees who are at that point in their career where they're absorbing information, they're learning. And a lot of that is done just sitting on the floor listening to what's happening, going to an impromptu meeting and work basically exactly things that don't happen when you're at home, and just being really conscious of new joiners, because if you've got new joiners in their first week, then working from home, I don't think is a great idea. I wouldn't think it's a great idea in the first month, if I'm honest, you've got to get again with the team that you know, find out about the wider team, your clients or technology, simple things like that. So those are the two things that I've seen in the industry where I think we need to support managers more and managers internally to support they're
Chris Rainey 12:52
more conscious about that. Now, I agree. Something we spoke about, on our first call together was around management versus leadership and EQ versus IQ balance. Could you share more on
Ben Higgins 13:05
that, because I'm working in banking. You know, banking is a sector where there is, and I'm sure it's the same elsewhere. But what I see is very high IQ. So clearly, when you're trying to look at the products for your, for your clients, what's what's important there is the way that your brain works, the algorithms, you're coming up with the products you're creating. And I think at the same time, you're managing a team and IQ and managing a team aren't, don't always work so well together. What you need, as we all know, in on the HR side is EQ you need to have that emotional intelligence to really get the most out of your team, listen to them, talk to them, get feedback, reactance, all that sort of sort of stuff. And I think that's where, for me leadership has evolved over the past past few years. And it's something that I think is, is a much harder job than it used to be. And why do I say this? I think COVID is obviously meant that our teams are some of them were working from home, some of them are in the office, some of them are on the road. And then firms were one of them who have introduced working from abroad. So you might have team members who aren't even in the same country, as at work that has certain amount of mumps. Yeah, so we tax reasons. We we offer our employees up to 10 days, 10 days, per per year. There are some conditions attached to this to make sure that we're managing our risks, but the feedback we get is fantastic. It's about trust as well. Yeah. And again, that's another thing that coming back to your original question. You know, leaders managers really need to be very conscious that when they're giving accountability to their teams, it's all about trust as well. And I think a good leader can manage all of that together. But it's not straightforward to do that. Again, we're not taught how to do that. I feel personally, a lot of that has to be quite in a test to be with you You to be a good leader rather than something that you stick someone through a leadership course, I think you have to have some traits, some values that will really enable you to flourish in that sort of role.
Chris Rainey 15:09
Yeah, and a lot of those things were I think we were a lot of the industry referred to that power skills now, being a sort of the terminology and we'd rather than saying soft skills, which just got a bit of a bad brand, around the, if that makes sense, as well. So power skills sound, and I think it reflects what they are. So things like leading with empathy, you know, something that I was told as a manager that you'd never do at all, or be invulnerable, exactly something that again, as when I first came out of gym, I mean, Don't ever show runnability, you should be the source of all knowledge or answers, almost, you know. And it, I realised that by doing that I was I was losing trust, and I was distancing myself from my teams. I remember one of my managers saying, Hey, we're not your friends, of course, why are you sharing all of these things? The things that we're describing now, and I was like, Wait, they're human beings, I'm a human being, I spend most of my life with these people. And, and you're telling me I shouldn't do that, as well. Right? But you're right. That's not something we're taught like how how, again, during the pandemic, the the line manager, and our leaders were having conversations around people's well being, and it was the first time they ever had to have those type of conversations. So what was just tough? Because none of us had the answers
Ben Higgins 16:22
No. And, you know, during something like that, you're asking people how they feel, and what's better to get people working in a safe space, the best way to do that is to be authentic. And in my view, that's to be all be vulnerable. Yeah, talk about your failures, and so on. And that's again, you don't that's not something that everyone is feeling comfortable with, because you've got to create that safe space for people to be vulnerable to talk about things haven't gotten quiet. So right to avoid them feeling. They're being judged in their credibility questions. So it's a really important part of modern leaders.
Chris Rainey 16:59
And I think the flip side of it now is by doing that, when my team and I need help, they come to me, because they've seen me be in a position where I'm like, Hey, guys, I'm not feeling great today. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, a bit anxious, I'm not going to be in today. They know that. So if they're feeling the same way, they're like, Okay, I can, they don't need to ask permission. In my previous company, someone asked me one day, I was really struggling with anxiety and mental health. And they said, Oh, do I have to book this as, as my holidays? And I was like, Is that is that is that the culture that we've created? In my previous company, my previous company, that someone fought that they can't even ask for that they'd rather than come to me or someone in the team, they're booked as holiday? Because they couldn't, didn't feel comfortable to have that conversation. I kind of broke my heart a little bit if I mean, I'm not surprised. So I know a big passion of yours is the share some of the work you're doing at the moment.
Ben Higgins 17:51
Yeah, well, you know, as a profession, we've been talking about Dei, for a long time. We've made a concerted effort over the past few years to really accelerate that. And I think the last two or three years, we've really got some some great results. So what have we done? So we first focused in on we first looked at diversity, and looking at what is the mixed what's what sort of mix we have within the organisation? So part of that is data collection. Part of it is looking at recruitment process, long list shortlist that, what I would describe as the standard stuff. And then more recently, we've taken a different lens and looked at inclusivity. And I think, you know, our former CEO mentioned, I think it's a really good quote, he sort of said that diversity, you can control because you can make deliberate decisions as to who you hire. But on inclusivity you can't control that. It's got to be something that's cultural, that you feel that you make people in the environment, yeah, atmosphere, feel comfortable, and can challenge so their vulnerabilities, etc, without without fear of prejudice, and so on. And if I give you one example of something that I'm really proud of, that we've worked on, recently, it was inclusivity training. We started it last year 2022. And what we did is, we trained all of our employees on experientially, you know, in a room not on hybrid deliberately. To do that, and scale, we had significant numbers of workshops, simple as that now, we bought in, we worked with an external partner. We ran this face to face training with all employees to look at a model of sort of actor receiver observer type model for the first few sessions we actually had actors in. And then we had some videos to show other groups of staff. And what it's about is just raising your own awareness of what it is to be excluded
Chris Rainey 19:49
or included an example of what was one of those scenarios that you've laid out. So this
Ben Higgins 19:53
could simply be a group of people who were going to make a presentation in front of management and you've got One individual who's thought of the idea and has come up with it, and that individual happens to be a woman. And she's accompanied by a more junior guy, to give him some opportunity, that guy presents the idea. And all of the focus is on him, all of the focus is on him. And instead of giving, you're sharing the credit, giving the credit, or the management, asking questions, yeah, it really, you know, you can see how you've got exclusion over here of someone who's come up with our dear made the effort. But then you've got the guy in this example, who's taken the credit. And then the second phase of this training that we've we've started very recently is that we're getting managers themselves to have inclusion conversations with their teams. And in fact, we have the conversation with the HR Expo today. Because you shouldn't forget that HR is a team as well. So whilst we know this stuff, you need to make sure that within HR, we're being inclusive, and we're learning from lessons, and so on, and so forth. So we have this session today. And it's great just to have a structured, I it's, it's structured in a very open, informal manner of the facilitators, and we've trained managers to be facilitators telling their own inclusion story, okay, so saying about when did they feel particularly excluded? What was the example and it could be in their personal life as well as their professional life, and then just having a having just an open conversation, it's not necessarily involving everyone around the room, although clearly, that's a part of this, but you want people to feel comfortable having it. And you do this for around an hour, an hour and a half, and you come out with you know, number one, it raises awareness, but then to sometimes you see, for yourself where you need to adjust, maybe you uncover your, when you share your unconscious biases, and these this can be really, you can really get some change out of this, you can really you're challenging people on something I've never done, I've never done this sort of thing before. It's it's it by itself is experimental, we're trying something different. But I personally found it just from doing it within my own exco today was really powerful. Really,
Chris Rainey 22:01
what have you learned about yourself?
Ben Higgins 22:04
For your mentor revealed?
Chris Rainey 22:08
I don't even mean specifically, I mean, but going through this for me, actually, I might have shown an example for me, right? You know, my my wife is, is someone who holds me accountable. And she's black, we've got a mixed race kit daughter, Robin, four years old. And there's certain moments where she'll, I will say certain things, and she'll pull me up on it. And I love it. I love it. And even on LinkedIn when you know, when you had a George Floyd situation, she was like, hey, you've got this global audience. Why have you not shared your false perspectives? And, and the truth was, I was too worried about saying the wrong thing. Like many people, so that was just a moment for me to reflect and be like, Okay, this, that's the reason I should share it. Because that seems that is the exact reason the reason I didn't post is the reason I should have. And it was good to be, you know, have that moment.
Ben Higgins 23:03
And the example I was going to give you use exactly the words, which is being afraid of saying the wrong thing. Yes. And it's really creating that the takeaway for me is not is being conscious of what you say, but also not being afraid to ask the question as to whether what I'm about to say or weatherize? What I've said is actually the right thing. Because let's be honest, on the topics of race, and LGBTQ plus, it's quite complex.
Chris Rainey 23:31
It's quite quite a complex, evolving as well. So trying to keep up with everything that's happening. Yeah,
Ben Higgins 23:36
certain terminology that you might have used five years ago is now terminology you would never use today. And we can't all profess to be, you know, experts in this area. So actually, What's better is to create the safe space, the space where people can, you know, can actually ask the question to say, is that the right thing to say or not? And I think that's the big takeaway for me.
Chris Rainey 23:56
Yeah. And it's back to your point earlier about being vulnerable as a leader. Yes. And not claiming? Exactly. As well, because that's where you get in trouble when you are making assumptions is probably the worst thing you could do.
Ben Higgins 24:10
Well, it gives you more credibility. Sure, it gives you data, you're showing that side of you that you don't know everything, as you said,
Chris Rainey 24:15
Yeah. What do you see as sort of the the main challenges for HR as we look forward?
Ben Higgins 24:20
I think we're, we're currently working at a seriously complex environment, geopolitically, with climate and so on. I think it's really I think employees are questioning what they're doing in the future. So I think it's, I think, number one, it's for HR to, to look at their operating models to see whether they're fit for purpose. I think skills is a big area where HR needs to step up in terms of future skills. We all know about AI and, and all those sorts of technologies that is going to change the way that most of us work in the future. So We've got to be able to face that head on. It's something that we're looking at ourselves at the moment. And then on the sort of topic of flexibility and the way that we are working with our employees on topics like well being, and so on, I think that's not going to go away, which I'm really pleased about. But I think again, hrs got to develop with the times to look at what's, what's out there. How can we support people in different in new ways at different stages in their lifecycle and, and their own personal lifecycle? So I think it's that combination of being future fit, and looking at how our organisations need people resources, and at the same time, making sure that for our people, we're doing the right thing. We're customising what's possible to customise and we're caring, actually caring for people. It's a competitive landscape out there.
Chris Rainey 25:48
Yeah, a lot of what we've spoken about, and the evolution of HR is like, night and day from when your dad was in it. And even when you started, Oh, yeah. So where we are now? How do you constantly stay on top of all of the changes the innovations just so much? Like I feel like HR is a function, unlike others is one of the most evolving, if that makes sense. In terms of the skill set required. I
Ben Higgins 26:17
couldn't agree with you more. And actually, this is another area I'm really passionate about? And the simple answer to your question, but it's quite hard to achieve. And I'm certainly not there yet, is you need to network, and you need to listen and have your eyes wide open to what is happening outside. So hence, the reason why I was the board member Chair of CGH, I still take part in the events that they do, because again, you get to listen to hundreds of other voices of people saying we're doing this we're not doing that this work, this didn't. At the same time, it's making sure that you're talking to people inside and outside your sector. You know, financial services is great for some parts of HR not great for other parts. And I'm sure it's the same Yeah, inevitably challenges that your industry face. Exactly. So I'm a big time for me is, is regulation, but yeah, other industries that doesn't feature but they're looking at something else. So it's just being open minded to what's happening out there. Being curious and I really drive that word a lot with with our employees is being curious, I think is one of the is a skill is a behaviour that I think is so powerful, to be able to really pick up the cues pick up and be you know, be interested in what's happening outside. So you're right, it's changing a lot. But I think if you keep close to the ground close to what your employees are looking for what's happening outside, I think you can get a fairly good idea of how things are going to change.
Chris Rainey 27:35
What what do you say to those HR leaders, which is normally a response I get is that they say, Chris, I don't have time.
Ben Higgins 27:43
What honest answer, you can make time if you want to, if you want to, you know, at the same time as being the head of HR of of SGX. In the UK, I was chair of our corporate foundation, our charity, I was chair of city HR and sitting on the board. I've got two young kids, I'm married. And I've got a social life outside of work. And I managed all of that. Maybe not perfectly my wife or my kids? Yeah. And I'm certainly no, but I'm not perfect at anything here. But I think that if you really want to do something, yeah, you can absolutely do it. You've just got to invest the time. And I think that's the word invest the time, because you will get something out of it.
Chris Rainey 28:21
Yeah, I always say it's like, you don't have time not to do that. The reason you're in this position where you're so busy, and you're running around in circles is you're not spending time networking, benchmarking learning, you know, because you could have perhaps avoided some of those mistakes. Yeah, you know, as well, because it's Yeah, and I've learned that even me, I'm constantly trying to evolve. You mentioned to me when he first came in the studio, like komak, like this is a lot is intense, like Yeah, whereas like me and Shane are always conceiving like, how do we create a better experience? You know? And how do we make sure we give a consumer grade experience the same way people have on social media, but bringing this type of content, if that makes sense? And exactly constantly making sure we can do that in a very authentic conversational way as possible, as well, what are you most excited about? Moving forward?
Ben Higgins 29:10
I really, for me, what I would love to leave, as a legacy is all the different ways we can engage with our employees on a level that we probably don't even know about today. And I know that sounds a bit of a funny answer, but I think there's a hell of a lot that we know about how we engage with our employees. But I think as their skills change, and as our skill set as HR, our toolkit as HR changes, digital takes, you know, we increasingly adopt a digital way of working. I think it's the way that we interact with our employees is going to change significantly. And that's the bit that excites me about the future. Yeah, it's not just what might happen in one two years time. I think it's looking further afield than that.
Chris Rainey 29:58
Yeah. Love it. Follow it. Go, I'm gonna jump into our quickfire round. So ask your questions.
Ben Higgins 30:03
I got to do really quick answers. 30 seconds. Oh,
Chris Rainey 30:06
I see. All right, right. Are you ready? Go on hit me. All right. What are your hobbies and passions outside of the office?
Ben Higgins 30:11
I don't take risks in the office that much. So my hobbies outside are a bit more risky. So I like trails motorbike riding. Okay, I don't like clay pigeon shooting.
Chris Rainey 30:20
Wow. Okay, so trail dumped you there? You did? Both of them. You just taught me the trousers like the like the downhill or like the obstacles? Yeah,
Ben Higgins 30:29
obstacles, no seat on the motorbike. And yes, I have fallen off and I injured myself quite badly. And I had to take most of the year out to recover. But I'm getting back on.
Chris Rainey 30:38
Okay. Fair enough. I don't think you can be stressed out about work in that moment.
Ben Higgins 30:44
Exactly. To your point. It's escapism. Yeah, both of those hobbies are total escapism because you have to be focused in
Chris Rainey 30:50
the moment. Now I love that I have similar hobbies that also do the same thing. If you could click your fingers and change one thing about HR, what would you change?
Ben Higgins 31:00
Our reputation, I think sometimes our reputation isn't as strong as it should be. And I think here, HR has to look at itself and the way we mark it, and shout about the good stuff that we do. I don't think we do enough of that stuff. And I think that if we shout more about what we do, will really help our reputation.
Chris Rainey 31:19
That's literally why it's created this show. In the first place, how would your kids describe what you do for a living?
Ben Higgins 31:28
As I might, as I said earlier, my wife and I are both working in HR. Oh, yeah. Well, you and your kids said they don't want to do HR, because they see the stress on their mom and dad's face when we've had a difficult meeting. How old are they? They're nine and 12. Okay, they're already feeling it, feeling it and working from home. And sometimes they see it, they literally, I think they they don't want to go anywhere close to this profession. But I think that, you know, if I asked them here they will be they'll be talking about the typical stuff of having meetings, you know, talking about stuff, they're not going to be able to really understand everything about what we do. It's a complex professional, it's getting increasingly complex. Fair
Chris Rainey 32:06
enough, at least at least it is normally the responses. My daddy or mommy, they hired five people. They might I should have asked for before. You should ask him one day to see like, see what their answer is. If if he wasn't in HR, or do you think you'd be doing career wise?
Ben Higgins 32:24
I wanted to be a pilot as a kid. But I don't know what would I be doing something outside? Less stress? Maybe something like running a bespoke like running boutique hotel or a Vinyard? Oh, allegedly? Yeah, yeah. Nice interacting with people trying to people when they're in that sort of mood of positivity, that's what I'd probably go for lambda. And
Chris Rainey 32:50
so what I have until they give you a headache, because their bed wasn't made properly, and then it wasn't clean, and then the edge, the eggs weren't
Ben Higgins 32:56
taking the edge off it now.
Chris Rainey 32:57
I'm joking. But yeah, no worries. This is a question I've added this year, the first one personal last one, this new one, too? What? Don't HR leaders talk about enough that they really should?
Ben Higgins 33:12
It's a tough question. I would say that HR needs to link its own strategy with the business strategy and not do something in isolation, really link it down to what is the business trying to do for its clients, and linking that to what it is trying to do for its people.
Chris Rainey 33:29
So that was already doing?
Ben Higgins 33:32
I think it does it. It does it quite well. Okay. But I sometimes see out there, people talking about HR, and I think but what's that got to do with your business? I struggled to see the linkage at all times. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 33:45
maybe I'm siloed. Because I'm speaking to people like you every day, and I've already got there. Would you say the biggest investment you've made in yourself,
Ben Higgins 33:54
I think was taking a lateral career move around 2009 and moving out of a business partner role into a specialist role. And in doing compensation, it was a bit of a risk because I wasn't a compensation expert. I didn't want to spend my career in it. But I was interested in curious as I said earlier, and I wanted to effectively have another string to my bow. That was probably the best investment because I felt and still feel and it's proved to be positive that to get this roll of CPO you need to have another string to your bow like that.
Chris Rainey 34:27
Yeah, I think that's a common trait I've seen over the last 600 episodes is many of the most successful CEOs have had moved laterally across all the different functions, or specialisms. And then by the time they've got to that role of CPO they're really not they don't just understand it. They've lived and breathed it and ugly. They know exactly what it takes
Ben Higgins 34:45
comes back to that word of credibility in front of your teams. You've become credible because you've, you know, you've seen what they do or certain teams you've seen what they do. You've lived it.
Chris Rainey 34:54
Yeah, it would just say the one person has had the biggest impact on your career.
Ben Higgins 34:59
Probably Probably my dad for putting me for giving me the idea of going into HR. But I would say, I had a fantastic coach, a chap by the name of Patrick Hobbs, who really opened my eyes, to linking sort of your professional personal life with your values, and really being, it's a bit of a cheesy expression. But being true to yourself, I think, if very regularly, at least weekly about some of the things that he got me to think about, that's probably within my career is having, I think, really good coaching. is life changing?
Chris Rainey 35:36
Yeah, no, I completely agree with that one. And my coach Chester, I said, I'd say to him, I can't live without you, as well has taught me so much about myself, as well, and you don't stay in a job as long as you have in a company, if it isn't aligned with your values and your purpose. And you
Ben Higgins 35:54
need support. This is a tough job, and to have someone who you can talk to, and you can get more out of you more performance, and so on. I think it's invaluable. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 36:02
Last question. What advice would you give to the HR leaders tomorrow, that are going to be sitting in your seat one day?
Ben Higgins 36:10
I would say, be curious. Take some risks with your career. And I would say probably the third thing I would say is get to you get to know people ask questions. And, and get out there and learn and learn more and more about about this.
Chris Rainey 36:32
This profession. Yeah, and it's gonna be a never ending learning curve.
Ben Higgins 36:36
It should never end Exactly.
Chris Rainey 36:37
That's a good thing as a fun thing. No, right. Yeah, you should engage for so long of our roles. You kind of hit a ceiling wherever that if you don't like disruption not working in HR. I mean, I can HR
Ben Higgins 36:47
disruption and transformation that wasn't standstill
Chris Rainey 36:51
here and people challenges. Exactly, exactly. Listen, I'm so happy we managed to get to see you in person. And I appreciate you coming on and look forward to seeing again soon. For sure.
Ben Higgins 37:00
Thank you for the invite again and great being with you. Thanks. Thank you

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