Carry Strong: An Empowered Approach to Navigating Pregnancy and Work

🎧 Subscribe on your favourite platform iTunes | Stitcher | Spotify | Google | TuneIn and RSS.
✉️ Sign up to receive our weekly newsletter packed with HR Insights sent directly to your inbox.

In this episode, I'm joined by Stephanie Kramer, Chief Human Resources Officer at L’Oréal USA.

Stephane discusses the challenges and triumphs of balancing career and parenthood. The speakers share personal experiences, including dealing with pregnancy loss and the impact of parenthood on relationships.

She highlights the importance of supportive work environments, the need for companies to train leaders on handling employees' pregnancy and parental leaves, and the role of HR in facilitating these discussions. The conversation underscores the need for open discussions about pregnancy at work to create a more inclusive and understanding workplace culture.

Episode Highlights

How personal experiences, including pregnancy loss and the transition to parenthood, can impact relationships and work-life balance
How supportive work environments and proper training for leaders can help manage employees' pregnancy and parental leaves effectively
How open discussions about pregnancy at work can foster a more inclusive and understanding workplace culture

Stephanie Kramer 0:00
One of the biggest search questions is how to tell my boss I'm pregnant really? And I? Oh my gosh, so many like that's like the number one Google search around. If you do pregnancy work, this is like the thing that is searched? Because people feel a lot of pressure that they need to do this. And do you have to disclose you not have to disclose? When do you do this? You know, there's guidance, like, Okay, you want to get through your first kind of appointment, or you want to get through your first trimester. But also, it's like, how do you feel? And how do you feel in your environment? What if you want to make a career move? What if you what if you, you know, you're just worried about fear of perception or for me, like I was so much worried about? What if there's another loss? I don't want to be judged for that. And I was already so tough on myself, like that question has like so much weight. And the funny thing is, I would say there's obviously some instances where people have not great managers that we need to work on. But there's so many moments where they felt this relief afterwards, like one woman said that her boss said to her, if you're half as good of a parent, as you as you are as an employee, that is one lucky kid. Like to imagine. I mean, I got chills when I read it. Because if that's what people say, to their pregnant employees, this is not going to be a point of attrition. This is gonna be where you retain people. And by the way, it's true. Like, it's it's a moment, it's such a small moment within regards your entire career. But for that person, it is really important.
Chris Rainey 1:32
Stephanie, welcome to the show. How are you?
Stephanie Kramer 1:34
Thank you. Thanks for having me, Chris.
Chris Rainey 1:35
Nice to see you. Nice to see you. How's life? First time it was a CHRO. Yeah, you haven't run away. You haven't run away yet?
Stephanie Kramer 1:46
No, I just love it. It's fantastic. There's been a lot going on. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 1:50
How many months has it been now?
Stephanie Kramer 1:52
Almost six months?
Chris Rainey 2:04
Wow
Stephanie Kramer 2:04
So I started officially in January, I joined the HR team at the end of last year, and then have been transitioning, and then officially will fully transitioned by the end of June. So
Chris Rainey 2:04
it's it's very, you've done that you've launched a book? Well, we haven't used it, what else have you got planned for us? Slow down.
Stephanie Kramer 2:12
I know it's looking for, for us, you know, the July 4 holiday was alright. So there'll be six plus months and the job like the buckle out there. My kids will be done with school. So it's also like all of those, you know, this part of the season? I feel like it's so busy for all of us.
Chris Rainey 2:28
Yeah, it's crazy when you How long has it been since the books been out? Now to two weeks, how long did it take to write
Stephanie Kramer 2:36
it took what took three years to write, I started thinking about the idea like 10 years ago. And then I did a TEDx talk, like seven or eight years ago, and then the book has been been three years and three years, like from starting to work on it with research and interviews. And then since then, just yeah, all the time. While
Chris Rainey 2:56
Yeah, that's for everyone listening, the book is Carry Strong: An Empowered Approach to Navigating Pregnancy at Work. We'll jump into that a bit more later, but a lot to unpack. But before we get to that, I want to kind of start from the beginning of the journey, like many of the HR leaders that have been on the show, you didn't start in HR, it kind of found you along the way, take us back for a second touch on a little bit more about you personally, and the journey to where we are now?
Stephanie Kramer 3:27
So that's amazing actually was doing an interview yesterday with someone from our my university magazine and I was talking about how I was I was a chemistry major in college, I love the sciences. And then I also had my I had a secondary degree in Spanish so in language, okay, it was a combination of like the science and culture. And I really get energy from people so always even then. So being in a lab was like kind of tough, I was like alright, I need to see how I can get out there and be with people, then my first job I did a rotational programme. So for analytical major, so biologists, chemists, engineers, and we rotated different roles. And that was in New York and then I was in the UK actually, we talked about that. And then I was in Asia and I came back to the US and every time I feel like it was you know the joy of kind of the art and science coming together, I was working at a fragrance house so fragrance houses make a lot of the different fragrance fragrances and flavours that are in so many of our products that we have all of us. But it was really being fueled by being around people and different cultures and adventure so I feel like I'm exactly where I need to be where I'm working for a large global organisation no in the US, but also with the art and science coming together in the world of beauty.
Chris Rainey 4:46
Amazing and how long have you been in the role now
Stephanie Kramer 4:49
I've been at L'Oreal for almost 13 years. So in two different times. So the fragrance house and then I joined L'Oreal and worked on one of our fragrance brands so we have have a portfolio of four different divisions and one one of which in our luxury division had Ralph Lauren fragrances so I worked at Ralph Lauren fragrances then I worked in haircare, which gave me a little bit more of kind of the lab piece connected in the brands and then actually left the company and I've also worked at Chanel in the US. And then I rejoined L'Oreal and Kiehl's, so super skincare fan. And then from Kiehl's went to SkinCeuticals, which is one of our brands in our loyal dermatological beauty portfolio. And then I joined HR. So my my experience, fortunately, at L'Oreal has been across the different divisions, but also had the chance to work with our labs and work with our manufacturing sites and work with our HR teams really closely in a lot of different capacities. So for me, that's kind of my pride that I'm bringing to the role, which is this understanding and appreciation for all of the different jobs we have across no 11,000 plus employees and across the US and obviously part of the global team, which is so cool.
Chris Rainey 5:59
Well, you must have enjoyed it because you boomeranged back. You know, during that journey, what were some of the roles that you held?
Stephanie Kramer 6:07
actually always been in marketing, okay. So I worked in kind of consumer marketing and the research side of it, and then was really close to product development, which is my favourite, and then worked in general management across the teams, my favourite role was actually when I was running the US business for one of our brands, because I loved working with the sales teams, it gives me tremendous amount of energy to kind of drive for the results, but as a team together. And it's funny, because somebody asked me that the other day, they're like, I never thought about marketing and HR. And I was like, it's all about communication. No, you can have all these amazing programmes, and you can have all of these incredible initiatives, but people have to know about it. And it's how do you get them engaged and feedback and all of that, you know, it's, that's, that's kind of this a secret superpower of knowing marketing. It's for years now, we've been talking about this sort of that intersection of marketing and HR. So no, no surprise that that wealth of knowledge and experience is definitely gonna come in handy.
Chris Rainey 7:07
So how does, how does someone go from being a marketing leader to a chro, HR leader, how did that happen?
Stephanie Kramer 7:16
Well, I mean, for me, it's very fortunate to have had the experience within the different brand teams both on the global side and on the US side. So my role today has been a component where it's very closely working, you know, with the global teams and the group and then also in the US. But you know, it's also through the network that I created. So establishing relationships with mentors like Stefan Barnea who I'm replacing, and, of course, was a guest on your show. And I think I always had the the curiosity also for a portfolio kind of view of the company, having worked in the different divisions and different functions, it was how could I have a role where I could have that impact for the group. And so it all kind of came together. But at the end of the day, you know, I'm just so excited. It's such an amazing adventure, and I have such a fantastic team. So there's a lot I have to learn. So in awe of all that this function has done. I think HR, as you very much know, has had such an evolution and has been critical for so many, especially in the past three years. Yeah, I just I pay to the team all the time. And like, I'm just grateful to get to be part of this team. And to help kind of be the propelling action behind all the great work that's being done.
Chris Rainey 8:28
Yeah, no, your 100 percent right. So does someone come to you for an opportunity, or did you seek it out?
Stephanie Kramer 8:35
Yes. Came to came to me.
Chris Rainey 8:36
Wow, what was your first reaction? Be honest,
Stephanie Kramer 8:39
I fell over. Well, I like you know, kind of like didn't really. You know, I think I sat with that a little bit. And I remember telling my husband and, and saying, like, there's something feels so good about this. And then I also feel like I you know, later would tell some friends and very close colleagues to me, and it would be like, this is this is what you need to be doing. And I felt that so much, especially in the past six months, like there's moments where I've been like, yes, yes, this is not just for me and my growth, but like, okay, how can I immediately add value while learning while growing and supporting the team and in a different way, but also learning from someone who's unbelievable, so it's, it's really a gift, but I, I am super humble about it. I really didn't fall over. But I'm so committed to the success.
Chris Rainey 9:36
Are you still still got the imposter syndrome? Or has it worn off?
Speaker 2 9:42
I have many moments. Sometimes I'll even it's something really technical. And I'm just like, alright, so do I download the deck and study it later? Do I try to Google what we're talking about? Or do I phone a friend you know, which is like, it's like, how do I gather the information like I'm a very, very good student. I always have been, like, Alright, how can I learn this and then other things out, you know, you're like, I got this, I got this I'm in the groove, but I feel like any job it takes at least a year, Oh, I feel like I'm where there's been moments of glimmers of hope. Or by the way, like, important moments of humility, where like you do not know, oh, not tried to not try to solve.
Chris Rainey 10:20
So you got a great team, right? You know,
Stephanie Kramer 10:23
running list for stuff on all the time, like, Alright, so here's, here's all the list. Here's all the things that I'm very aware, I do not do. Which is, which is cool about,
Chris Rainey 10:32
you're like, I know, you're leaving, but you know, I'm gonna call you right. Know, I'm gonna message you when it goes live questions. Yeah, love it. Tell everyone a bit more about the book, you know, what inspired the book and the journey that you've been on? To where we are now? Yeah.
Stephanie Kramer 10:51
So I mean, I mentioned a little bit that I'm like a nerd. And I feel like the way that I process things is also through often through learning curiosity, asking questions and connecting with others. So for me, you know, if I was talking about 10 years ago, but more than 10 years ago, I zoom myself back. No, we talked about this before about my my husband had done the New York City, Ironman race, the year of our, the year after we got married. So just before our first anniversary, and unfortunately, he suffered extreme hyponatremia. So he had imbalances in his electrolytes that were affecting his brain. And in fact, ended up in intensive care for over two weeks. I remember the direction I was sitting. And I say this in the beginning of the book, when I was sat down by the head of a hospital and told like, it's a good thing. You don't have kids, and I'm staring at my, you know, newly wed husband, who's super stressed, that's done this. Yeah. And also, by the way, that I should get a a priest, if that was my religion, because last rites might be necessary. And I just remember sitting there and being like, where, where am I and what is happening, and no, he's just coming to get some, you know, dehydration, and it was very, very serious. And so from that point on, I feel like, you know, the idea of family was something that was always important to us, it was always important to me also personally, like, okay, I knew I wanted a career, but I knew I wanted to be a mom, that was really part of who I always have been, I feel like so many of us have that innate. And by the way that both are possible. And so that happened. And then it took us a long time after that, to be cleared from a health perspective, and then to an end to get pregnant. And then I was pregnant. And then I say, I'm pregnant and pregnant again at work. And it rocked me, because I wasn't expecting, I was expecting that I had already gone through or we had already gone through like quite a lot to get to this point. And didn't expect that it wouldn't happen. I mean, I think now, obviously, through the work, and kind of research of the book, like it's not easy, sometimes it just happens. And that's wonderful. Or by the way that can be its own kind of shocking situation. But for us, you know, to suffer a loss at the end of a first trimester, at my desk was a moment that I realised number one is impact on me of something I really wanted. But also that this was an opportunity for me to help others because, you know, mentorship and talks communication about these powerful life moments always happen behind closed doors, or you're searching like your cert, you're Googling how to how to tell my boss I'm pregnant, or I'm going through fertility treatments, or what to do if you're suffering a loss. And so I wanted to create a resource. So you know, from that point, I started coaching people behind closed doors, you know, I teach at fit. So I was teaching communications at one of our universities as an adjunct in New York City. And so students, mentees, people would kind of come to me for this advice, but I'm just one person, I have one perspective and one story. So during the pandemic, I saw these amazing, and I've done the TEDx and I see these amazing women who are like in full PPE, or their giant bellies serving on the front lines, like, Alright, there's something here because it wasn't just tragedy that I was feeling in triumph post, you know, post loss and into pregnancy with both of my sons and all the tough stuff in between. But it was also this like, boost of confidence. So how could I reframe something, there's not just something to get through, which is how it's often framed. It's not true, as it can be positive, it could be neutral, it can be negative, but how do I create a community of support in a way that felt authentic? Had the combination of storytelling had some facts debunking myths? So I decided to write a book like I thought, instead of having, you know, just micro stories, like how can I create a comprehensive resource around one topic, there are so many awesome resources for pregnancy around health for postpartum return, including work that I knew there was something like the pre and the during particular about career. And so I set out to work on just this narrow and deep topic. But I know effects, you know, so many women. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 15:09
Was was part of it that when you went through that situation of losing your baby, that you look for a resource and there wasn't one there?
Stephanie Kramer 15:18
Yes, I actually remember two things happening. One was I was using my phone, and I was searching through message board threads, you know, remember, like message for threads to try to see the results? You know, I would look for like, Okay, is there any hope that this is happening? And I feel like, for me, that's why it's been so important than any of the articles I'm creating is as to make people feel less alone in the information, but also just that it exists. And now, there's so much more. I mean, that was 10 years ago, and even by the way, Google algorithm algorithms have gotten better. So I'm sure that there would be something for me now, which I definitely believe, but how is it credible? How is it balanced? And I really wish that that would have existed. So I try, I'm trying to both create the space for the conversation and also for some of those resources to exist, just to make people feel, you know, safe included. And less alone. And it can positive, by the way, celebrate, of course,
Chris Rainey 16:14
right? Yeah, of course. How did you is obviously a bit of a sensitive question, but I'm trying to figure out, how did you find the courage to try again, and build yourself back up? Because I'm sure that must be so devastating. Yeah, what and I asked that because there may be someone listening to this one day that could love to hear those words from you, someone like yourself has been for it.
Stephanie Kramer 16:42
You know, I think, personally, it's, it's always been something for me that, you know, you just you just, you just have to try, you have to see what you need around you, you have to seek out experts, resources support, but you also have to find the way you feel comfortable to do that. And in fact, in that moment, I feel like, you know, it was kind of the first time and so it shocked me, but it was like, alright, of course, we'll try again. And, and I remember then later suffering a dispositional losses before my second son. And in fact, that was, you know, you have I had my child, but it actually felt almost as dire as it was like, of course, this is going to happen, you know, of course, I'm going to have to fight through it. But for me, relatively, there are so many people who are caring so much, including, by the way, dealing with the trials and tribulations of pregnancy, who be pregnant at work for five years, and not yet have a baby. So all I have to say to people that are listening, that that may be helpful for us, give yourself grace, give yourself space, realise that all the other things that you're doing. So by the way that can be work included, it might be a season where you need to shift that focus and momentum, or I actually found for me, work was actually a way for me to feel comfortable and capable, I actually got a lot of energy by having things that were within my control in a positive way, I actually enjoyed delving into projects or distractions, especially when I was also, you know, navigating the health of my husband. And the people around me at work became such powerful allies and friends. So I think two things, give yourself the grace in this space, navigate the seasons, get the energy where you need it from other places don't feel like everything has to be at once you know where you're like, oh my god, I remember this feeling. And it was really tough. I remember this moment where I was like, I'm failing at work, I'm failing at home, I'm failing as a daughter. That and it's not true. You just have to kind of navigate your seasons and feel when those energy dips happen, how you're going to lift yourself up in a different way. And it can come from a lot of different places and people and surrounding yourself with the people that you need.
Chris Rainey 18:49
We have a habit of beating ourselves up, don't we? We so do we do it? And at the worst moments possible.
Stephanie Kramer 18:58
Yes. I was launching the book few weeks ago, and I don't think I've ever felt as vulnerable. It was really, it was really tough.
Chris Rainey 19:03
It's what happens when you're literally putting a piece of yourself. Yes, you're literally giving a piece of yourself away in Yeah. And yeah, it's yeah. So for context, for everyone listening, you interviewed over 200 If I get this right, working mothers in the book, and I got the list of questions, but won't go over all of those. But one of the things you do is you ask them to share the crucible moment. But what could you walk through one little bit more about what that means and why you did?
Stephanie Kramer 19:41
So one thing I did with the women that I interviewed, was I asked them five questions. So I asked them tell me a time about you when you were pregnant at work, doesn't have to be the moment you know, a lot of people would jump to like, oh, I don't really have like this thing. But for example, one of the stories is about someone who was pregnant With quadruplets, and someone gave, you know, their parking space to her closer to the door, and it was like a small gesture, but it had such a powerful impact on her. You know, other people it was I mean, Poppy Harlow from CNN was interviewing Justice Ginsburg. So okay, that's a pretty big, powerful crucible moment. But what I found through the stories is there's a something that people get zapped back to that individual moments for me, so I talk about the sad one. But it also remember when I was pregnant with my second son, I was on my way home, in a taxi up the West Side Highway in New York City after doing my last day at work, and I just given a presentation to our intern. So just imagine, like a super giant pregnant person presenting to interns was probably terrifying for them thinking that I would go into labour. But for me, I texted and I still have it on my phone, I refuse to delete it. But I have a note that I sent my younger son and said, I just did this presentation at work, and you are with me, and I'm so proud. And I can't believe this is where we are. And tomorrow, you're going to be here and I had high risk conditions, I knew I had to be induced. So fortunately for the interns, I wasn't going to have the baby. But like those moments we sat back to in our life. And by the way, I'm talking about pregnancy work. But so many people have those powerful crucible moments in their career, and they'll intersections of life and career that happen. And I asked women to share that because in that moment, the other questions were telling me, you know, advice you wish you would have had in that moment? Yeah. Or what advice do you want to give? Because it's something that happens in that moment, in a really, really special way?
Chris Rainey 21:35
Did you find when you asked that question that many of the women didn't even realise how impactful that moment was? Until you kind of brought it up?
Stephanie Kramer 21:47
Absolutely. I also asked, what phase of the journey did this happen to and by the way, some people that share their stories, they don't yet have children, or they haven't yet been pregnant. So it's even the phase before. And for so many, by telling them the phases instantly, which I found very helpful actually, to delineate these phases, because it put words around something that's not medical, you know, it's not necessarily about your developing body or baby, it's actually more your thresholds for what you share, you don't share and just how you feel. But for so many when I talked about so that the phases are BTC. So pre pre trying to conceive could be college aged women, or just before you're ready to try, which is the next phase trying to conceive. Then there's the big positive. And then there's that into this moment. For those who don't disclose something right away. I call it the hush. And almost every single person I talked to, and I said that they were like, Oh, yes. You know, putting words around this fact of this private pregnancy. You know, the the before you reveal your news, or just this idea that you have this precious secret, and it can feel like a lot of pressure. But it also has this like secret superpower. So putting words around that. So many people, if they were struggling with this story be like, well, let me tell you about these phases,
Chris Rainey 23:06
so they can get the language to have a conversation.
Stephanie Kramer 23:10
Not like so like, okay, that Oh, that was definitely in the hush or that was definitely when I was publicly pregnant when I push or that was definitely when I was thinking about returning to work. And those moments also kind of helped to create the the light bulb moment for them.
Chris Rainey 23:24
Yeah. What were some of the sort of concerns that came up in that phase of sharing that they're pregnant?
Stephanie Kramer 23:32
So it's really interesting. So many people, one of the biggest search questions is how to tell my boss I'm pregnant, really? And I? Oh, my gosh, so many, like that's like the number one Google search around. If you do pregnancy and work, this is like the thing that is searched? Because people feel a lot of pressure that they need to do this. And do you have to disclose you not have to disclose? When do you do this? You know, there's guidance, like, Okay, you want to get through your first kind of appointment, or you want to get through your first trimester. But also it's like, how do you feel? And how do you feel in your environment? What if you want to make a career move? What if you what if you, you know, you're just worried about fear of perception or for me, like I was so much worried about? What if there's another loss, like I don't want to be, I don't want to be judged for that. And I was already so tough on myself. But a lot like that question has like so much weight. And the funny thing is, I would say there's obviously some instances where people have not great managers that we need to work on. But there's so many moments where they felt this relief afterwards, like one woman said that her boss said to her, if you're half as good of a parent, as you as you are as an employee, that is one lucky kid. Like, can you imagine? I mean, I got chills when I read it. Because if that's what people say, to their pregnant employees, this is not going to be a point of attrition. This is going to be where you retain people. And by the way, it's true. Like it's it's a moment it's such a small moment. Within regards your entire career, but for that person, it is really important. So for me, I try to kind of frame the book and a lot of these stories where you see both and you see what's possible, like it's we're gonna continue to have kids, we're gonna continue to work. So we don't have to frame it always is this something dire to get through and we have to recognise when men perception and wait that women are carrying or you know, female, identifying birthing, people are caring, because we can also flip the script.
Chris Rainey 25:29
Yeah, that really gives me a unique insight, because I'm speaking personally, and obviously, for all men, obviously, but I never felt like that, you know, when when, when I had to tell my boss, or actually my boss was Shane, my co founder at the time, but like, I never felt the pressure, you know, and, but my, I can remember Natasha, my wife, being very nervous. Now, if I look back about turning her boss, and she was like, I want to be overlooked for this promotion, I don't want to be seen as you know, there was a, there's loads of things that we spoke about beforehand, but it's a very different perspective.
Stephanie Kramer 26:09
You know, it's a forcing function, right? So when you're a public that when you have a belly, there's one point where it discloses it for you. And it's really interesting, because during the pandemic, you know, the screens were here, oh, so people longer to share. And it's funny, because I remember having a conversation with someone who said, Oh, I feel like my husband, like, I just have to wait until I'm gonna be like, Oh, by the way, I'm having a baby.
That's how men operate.
Oh, by the way, I'm having a baby. It's so different symptoms, although, you know, partners certainly still feel like a tremendous amount of pressure and preparation and have to have the discussions. And, and I feel like it's, it's really interesting, because now I think we're very much more aware. I mean, particularly in the US parental leave is now applying to all genders. So it's, it's different. And hopefully, by the way, will encourage men and and the non birthing partners to participate in a different way or perhaps need to disclose it, to anticipate what might happen at work. So it's an interesting time, I think we're in
Chris Rainey 27:15
how about the work that you're doing in HR? Because I'm sure you know, you now get to really impact the lives of how many employees you have. Now, I've always forget the number. Yeah, no big responsibility there.
Stephanie Kramer 27:34
Definitely, great power, great responsibility, I feel it that can carry the carry strong has a new, a new meaning in my new job. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 27:41
What does the current parental leave look like at L'Oreal?
Stephanie Kramer 27:44
What's the fantastic thing is that, and I say this very often to people, but I wouldn't have felt felt so confident in this job, if I also didn't believe so much in what we're doing for working parents. And that, you know, that's for pre paternity during, you know, the benefits that we offer. And also, you know, afterwards, including, by the way, having a think tank that's for parents and caregivers. So that's one is that I feel very proud of what we offer. And I just keep telling our teammates, they're like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna do so much for the, you know, parental policies that it's like, no, I'm just going to talk about it goes to the marketing and communication piece. It's like, no, actually, we have amazing resources, I just need to make sure that everyone's aware of what exists. But that's, that's one. And the second part, which I feel like in the past couple weeks I've been thinking about so much is that, you know, talking about these other dimensions of ourselves, so including being a parent, or being a caregiver, or all of the other things that we do. My goal is also in me talking about this one facet, that, by the way, is very relevant to so many of our employees, but actually is permission to bring your whole self to work in so many other ways, other different dimensions of diversity. And by the way that I wrote a book, and that I'm very proud to have done that also concurrent to my career. So I think it's combination of Yes, specifically, obviously, I very much want to support our, our parents and our caregivers. And I personally know focused on this area that I saw as an opportunity in the big picture. And I believe that we're leading and so how can I help to lead, you know, even more so than L'Oreal, but also separately, and I keep hearing it and I'm so proud of that. It's also this is just one thing, this is mine, but what are the other ways that are either constraining you or propelling you in your life that intersect with work? So I feel like both of those have been really top of mind for me in my new job.
Chris Rainey 29:43
In the book, you I think is five principles right? In, in the book and you start with identity, which I think you said I read somewhere that you said was the hardest. Why did you start with identity and what does that mean? No
Stephanie Kramer 30:00
identity was the hardest to write of the principles and it was the last chapter I wrote. So the principles are perspective, balance, community communication and identity. So there is a last is it last principle? Okay, so that makes it that is the other way around then. Okay.
Is the last one I started with perspective because, for me what I realised when I was writing the book and even listening to women is they would frame it still unless they had gone through it. So the anticipation people would say, like, like get through or pregnancy is a career killer. Or, you know, there's even been some things lately rather than, like, know what, you're continuing to perpetuate this heaviness or, you know, in fact, like, we see that the breadwinner, motherhood penalty and fatherhood bonus, the primary breadwinner, in fact, is actually pretty balanced now, so that some debunk some some common misconceptions. But that was important to set it up. And then the other principles, which by the way, apply in leadership completely outside of the intersection of pregnancy and work, you know, balance, like we all talk about it quite a lot. What does it mean, I give a different way to thinking about it. Communication, which we talked about is essential community, who do you need around you? But the last one identity? It's not necessarily, I would say, it's, it's not as clear as those other principles of like, okay, here's a tool, and here's some things you can do. Identity is like, deep work. And in this moment, you know, so many people would go back and forth and myself included, would go back and forth between, I'm exactly the same person, and I'm a totally different person. And the same person could be saying both things. Because you, you're still experiencing it. But yeah, I think we're all
Chris Rainey 31:44
is that, as I say, Is that is that kind of that's gonna stop you there, because you kind of just triggered a memory for my wife. At one point, she came to me and said, I don't know who I am anymore. Yes. And I didn't understand it. If I'm being honest, that the time was like, What do you mean? And she said, I don't know. Like, she kind of was struggling to find her identity again. And, and, and that's one of the reasons she was really keen to get back into the workspace it back to work. She's like, you know, I love Robin, obviously. But I need I need a need. And I enjoy my career. It's who I am. It's, you know, what I love to do. And at the time, I didn't really understand it. But now I understand it more, because we have more conversations. And she has continued to evolve. And she started her own podcasts, where she speaks to that DNI leaders every day. And it's been actually really proud. I'm proud of her to see her, you know, find herself and really, but is that what you mean by identity as well? Yes. Okay.
Stephanie Kramer 32:49
And, you know, it takes, it takes some, it takes some time, because it's also it takes some time, but it also relatively is pretty quick, you know, you're going through, that's plus or minus a year of something super transformative, where you know, you physically change, you have a baby, you have all this responsibility, but you're who you are, you return to work. And are you the same Are you different things have happened, baby when weren't there? I mean, I just remember, like standing in my closet, like the same moment as your wife and looking in the classroom being like, who am I? And what do I wear? And what does she do? Where did she go? Or it's also that you have these new priorities, and they're not necessarily bad, but in the moment, you're like, trying to learn all of these new things, like, I really want to go on the work trip, but I can't go on the work trip, but if I don't, it's gonna affect my career, but is it really gonna affect my career and my boss says, it's not going to I feel it is. And you're trying to do all of this, like, Jenga, rationalisation of priorities. And then you have this moment where you have a sick child and you're like, like, nothing else matters, you know, but I found for myself, and when you were talking about, you know, imposter syndrome, or for me, it was a perfectionist mindset, that was holding me back. Because it was like, I want to get an A in everything. And if I just work harder, I just put in more hours. And if I just say yes to everything, then I can make things happen. And then for me, motherhood and all of those experiences, life experiences actually has made me so much better at delegating, prioritising being focused, I'm so much more focused than I was, I think, because you can't not be so you know, you don't have a choice when you're, you know, your four year old is a boring things on the floor. But um, but I also feel a tremendous amount of reward I get from work as well by having something that's kind of uniquely need to when I'm giving a lot to other parts of my life.
Chris Rainey 34:40
Yeah, I'm wondering like, one of the things I experienced you kind of taking me back now. And my wife and I, we spoke about this recently is no one really told you. Also, how it affects your relationship as husband and wife. Yes, as partners, and that's something that I wasn't really prepared for. because all of a sudden for the longest time, it's just been you and your partner. Now you have this amazing human being and your life. And I kind of felt like for a while I lost my wife for a little bit, not that she was like being intentionally distant, etc. But I didn't she was kind of trying to figure herself out, which he explained to me later, because, like, are we good? Are we good? Like? So if I've done something wrong, or like, can I help wth anything? No, it's not you. I just need just give me some space. I need some space, just to figure if that makes sense. I'm explaining it right. Hopefully people can relate to what I'm saying. And I was like, okay, the dynamic of our relationship, but also changed, which took some getting used to, if that makes sense.
Stephanie Kramer 35:46
No, I, it's, I've heard it a lot with couples. Also, you know, when you're both working, I think you very, you need to have that conversation. Also, when someone's pregnant, like, it's, how will this affects my career? How is this going to affect your career? We do it but we talk a lot more about what does that mean for childcare? Or what does that mean for our physical space or our finances, but it also is important to talk about, like, what's important for our relationship? And, you know, I think, regardless, you the parent, the birthing parent, also has a specific responsibility that often, they're the only ones that can care for the child in some instances. And that can feel like a lot, but they also want to so it's, you know, having the discussion with your partner about how can I help, what do you want me to do for you, and also for the baby? Because sometimes I think that, you know, mothers, myself included, afterwards, you're like, Okay, I did my job, you know, and, and, all right, that baby is born, and then you go back to work, and you're like, but I did this, I accomplish this other piece, too. And you want, like, some recognition of what you've gone through. And also for yourself, you know, it can feel like a lot can be exhausting
Chris Rainey 36:59
eah. What were some of the other? You mentioned earlier, some of the myths that you debunk? What are some of the other myths that you debunked?
Stephanie Kramer 37:08
You know, one of the things we talked about that might be helpful for people that are that are listening is about communication, specifically. So, you know, I think that people feel a lot of pressure of what they need to say and how they need to say it. But what I really encourage people to do is thinking about the person you're communicating to, and think about how you like to communicate in order to find kind of confidence and comfort. So for example, the question we were talking about how to tell my boss, I'm pregnant, so how to tell my boss I'm pregnant, it could be very straightforward. It's like, I'm pregnant. This means that this is when I go out on this due date, which means that I want to check in with you here, it can be very straightforward, maybe that's your communication style. And that's also how your your boss needs to communicate to you. But it doesn't have to be your boss. And it doesn't doesn't have to be your not your style. So I use kind of like a who, what, when, where, why. So who Who do you need to tell? Is it your boss? Is it HR? Is it an ally? Is that a friend? Is it someone else within your ecosystem? What what do you need to tell them, so you might not need to say, Hey, I'm going through fertility treatments, this means morning monitoring, this means I need you to change my status. This means that I'm not going to be on this trip. That might be one person style, and that's fantastic for them. And maybe that's also the relationship they have with that boss or HR team member. But it also might just be someone going and saying, Hey, listen, I'm going through something personal, it's affecting me every day, I'm going to tell you when I need you, I just needed you to know that something was going on. Yeah. You're, yeah, that's up to you. And that's so important to have that empowered feeling for the, you know, who you need to tell what you need to tell when and where like, Is it urgent? Like, do you need to immediately pick up the phone? Or do a zoom? Or do you want to wait until you maybe you have a meeting? And you're gonna bring this up in a way that you feel comfortable? But the last one is, and the how and the is it in person? Is it a quick conversation? Is it in writing, whatever you need to do for you and based off of the situation? And then the last one is, is the why you're doing this? Because this is something that's important to you, it's affecting your every day, you know, it's wonderful, or it's something that you're carrying a lot of responsibility, and is it having an effect on you at work or not? And that's also okay. And sometimes I find that that framework can be so freeing, and not just for pregnancy and work, but for a lot of the things we're all going through. And sometimes just thinking about who, what, when, where, why, how can take some pressure off, I think of the situation. And by the way, it's what we should be doing as HR and leaders in general to create conversation. So it doesn't feel like this huge extra responsibility on the person that needs to advocate for themselves to so I think that's that's one thing to consider.
Chris Rainey 39:57
So that's a good good framework to tell your boss Do pregnant forever RSS? Yeah, yeah. Random for not sure. If you didn't know if you've done any research into this, how do companies like provide training to leaders of how you even deal with that?
Stephanie Kramer 40:16
So there are some incredible resources and organisations that do onboarding and off boarding, for leaves, which I think is fantastic. I also think there's been excellent training done by a lot of HR organisations about critical conversations. But I think this one is very specific. And I feel like there's opportunity for us to, which is why I did it in the book, but put it all in one place, because these life moments all kind of be their own playbook. You know, like I I've asked recently, someone like, Do you have a way that you recommend someone to navigate, you know, dealing with an ailing parent, or perhaps, you know, a child who is going into going to college like our there's these moments where we can help to give some tools and what resources are available, because sometimes I think we have all of this stuff that's available. And then we have all the critical coaching conversations that need to happen. And we give that but we've got to connect the two. And by the way, I think it's a tremendous opportunity for HR and that role, where we often sit between kind of the coach and the empowering the manager and the employee, but we also have the access to the expertise and the resources. So I think it's an area of opportunity in these life moments or moments that matter that we use at L'Oreal, to empower the employee and the people manager because of the power of HR and where it's where it's going as a partner, to expertise and also to the businesses and the team members.
Chris Rainey 41:51
Yeah. Because I remember when my one of my employees first came to me, not in this company, when I was a director at a previous company and said that they're broken, I honestly had no idea how to handle that conversation. And I'll be honest, I didn't know where to send them. I didn't know what our leave policy. I didn't know anything. And I was I felt really overwhelmed. Like why Why have I never been trained or told any of this information at any point. And it just made a conversation. It should have been about it should have been a really happy, joyful conversation. Whereas I basically left that conversation, I'll get back to you, which is which is felt awful. I obviously was very happy for them. I was like what congratulation etc. But I didn't have any the answers to any of the questions which they were really concerned about. Very, very important questions, and I had none of those. I'm thinking how many organisations are actually equipping that leaders and managers with that knowledge? Because, yeah,
Stephanie Kramer 42:48
it's funny, uh, one of the women in the book said that pregnancy at work feels like a series of uncomfortable conversations, you know, which is like, these uncomfortable conversations. So for me, it's exactly that which I think is the opportunity. And by the way, you can follow her lead to, you know, some of some of the employees are going to know more than maybe you and they come to you, they're going to be like, I know that I need to call this for this policy. I know that the research, research, they haven't been up, but it's kind of, it's important that the managers have that information, what there isn't, what HR role is and what the employee's role is like, Okay, this is what you need to do what I need to do and what they need to do. And that way, we all can kind of, I call it like a deliberate ease, like how can we make it so that it's not uncomfortable? It's not awkward, because by the way, it is physically uncomfortable and relatively awkward on its own. So how can we make that least the conversations and the resources available and long before you need it? I think that that's so important. And that is for me, a moment, I feel like you know, we're starting to or we are embracing these these leave policies, tools for onboarding and off boarding, you know, think tanks, employee resource groups, it's all awesome. But that's sometimes if me, you know, you, you only are really looking at that when you're like I need it, versus we have to make sure it's available to everyone, both because I think it's cool because you can support your coworkers and I want to work at a place where, regardless if I need all of those resources, I know they exist for my teammates. But also if you know they exist long before you need them, you're going to feel more comfortable and confident going into it, which that's also a huge opportunity to not have to be carrying that extra stress or weight when you're thinking about some really big life decisions. So yeah, I think
Chris Rainey 44:40
so important. As I spoke to like friends and family in the past who said, I'm thinking about having a kid and they were like oh, but I can't do it because of XY and Z. And I'm like, oh, you should go and check. If that's the case. And I've come back and said, Oh my God, no, it's not the case. We have. We have this we have this benefit we have that we have fertility we have I'm like they're like great And then, like, the fact that you didn't know that, yeah, it means that the company has failed you in being able to make sure that, you know, you shouldn't have to search for it, you know, it should be very, very easy to access and like, like you said, with your marketing background, we should be constantly having those conversations, storytelling, sharing that for our organisations,
Stephanie Kramer 45:23
where someone joins a company. Yeah, you know, even having that available. Like that's how people are also choosing where they work. And not making it weird. You know, someone asked me that the other day it was they were like, well, how can I ask if someone has a maternity policy when I'm interviewing without them thinking that I'm going to need it and
Chris Rainey 45:39
get oh, that's a good point, though. That's quite a tough one. That wasn't it? Yeah.
Stephanie Kramer 45:44
I mean, I said, Why don't you say, where can I find more information about all the policies you offer your employees? You know, and, and, by the way, if they're like, well, we don't really have that. That's also kind of something telling to? Yes. Anyway, it's a matching game, right? We want to have employees that want to join organisations and organisations want to be attractive to employees. So you know, I think there's, there's ways to do it. But hopefully, we'll get to the point where all of us could just ask, and it's not. It's not strange. Yeah. But I think for the time being, like asking something like that can be super helpful.
Chris Rainey 46:16
You mentioned that you share a lot of sort of actionable tools in the book, what's what's one that comes to mind that you think will be most valuable for audience listening that they can take away and do tomorrow?
Stephanie Kramer 46:32
You know, one thing that came into mind, because I talked about it yesterday with someone was, and particularly for HR leaders, you know, I ask people sometimes to think about a traffic light with their career. And by the way, it can be for your life, too. So think about a traffic light, like, are you? Are you green? Are you in the zone? Are you feeling like you're growing that you are, you're getting energy from a lot of places that you're moving, by the way that you see green lights with your team, and you know, that feeling like everybody knows that I'm in the green, just cool. And by the way, sometimes you're in the green with like, 90% of your life. And there's like something that's kind of like holding you back. But okay, I'm getting a green, or a yellow. Like, there's, there's something sticky, and it's holding you back, either in career or another dimension of life, but there's something yellow, it's a warning sign. And either you need to like speed up and get through that yellow light, or you're gonna slow down, or are you read, and that's like, get me out of here. Something is not working, either. It's something that's affecting your everyday work, or it is your work. And I think, one one reason why I say that is that that's part of an assessment that can happen for all of us, including, by the way, these major life moments like pregnancy will work. But it's, it's for your every day. And I think that as HR leaders, sometimes we the forcing function of are you green, or yellow, are you red, help us to understand how to unlock, maybe if you're green, those things that are awesome, we want to make sure we keep because one of the fears in these life moments is that you're going to lose something. So how do you capture what those are, and then you keep it going and recognise it because it's also kind of amazing when it happens that you need to enjoy it a little bit, or the yellow, like, what are the things that need to shift or just recognition of it can be really free. And then the last part, if it's red, it's like, alright, we need to do something about this, because this isn't just going to be affecting your work. But this is also going to be affecting your life. So that's kind of one tool that anyone listening, I'm sure you can probably I use it for myself, where I'm like, Alright, today is like today is a pretty good Green Day. And it could be for a day can be for a week, it can be for a year, that you're feeling yellow, you know, like you have this feeling. But sometimes those points of assessment, particularly with the intersections of life and work, I think can be very helpful to encourage a conversation with people too.
Chris Rainey 48:46
Yeah, love that. Because you can use it in a particular point of time, a particular project pain point, etc. As a good way of just, again, it's like to your point earlier, it's a great way to have a conversation. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to, to put it into perspective. Whereas if you have that you can say, this is where I am right now. This is this is I'm going to read right now. And this is the result. Okay, how do we get you from here to there? And having having a conversation? Around? What are you? What if? What do you hope that people take away from the book,
Stephanie Kramer 49:21
I really, it's amazing, because the word conversation keeps coming up to me where it's, I want to try to expose that these conversations exist, encourage them to happen, but also encourage it to be a two way dialogue. So the book is really framed for those individuals, you know, it's an empowered approach so that the person going through it feels like they have this ability to navigate something that can be quite complex and by the way, can be very fueling and all of the good things and use it as this moment. That's, that's a great propelling one. But also it's the other side. So by exposing these topics by giving frameworks that's exactly what At what we're saying, which is the best results come from a dialogue. So I really just wanted to put this on the table, change, flip the script, change something that's a point of attrition. It's a legit point of attrition, by the way, so as menopause, which is the other huge hot topic right now, but these points of attrition in the pipeline, particularly for working women, which we know still exists, and flip it, so instead of taboo, I said this the other day, to someone and I really, I really liked it, it was like instead of taboo topics, they're just table stakes. It's normal 85% of working women will come mothers, it's okay. And by the way, we want to have parents of all genders included in these conversations, I think, you know, we've got to give everyone permission for how they want to, to have their work and life be integrated.
Chris Rainey 50:44
Yeah, it almost seems surreal that this wasn't already a conversation, you know, the fact you had to write this book that you do, you do you but also very sad, to be honest, that was that you are in that moment, and one of the most toughest moments in your life, and you didn't have a community or a space to have those conversations, right. And now you've now you've helped create that, for thought for which is, which is amazing, honestly, you should be very proud of yourself. And I think we need to get this into as many hands as possible. Many, many men's hands as possible, like I learned so much. And like I learned so much from my wife and going through that process, nothing can prepare you for it, by the way, you know, going through those moments in life. But having a community having a safe space to have conversations. The language, like you said, to have the conversations because a lot of people, they don't want to say something and because they say something wrong, they want to offend with you saying the wrong thing, right. So they say nothing at all. But that's also part of the problem, as well. So honestly, really, really happy for you and really excited to share it with our community. And I appreciate you coming on the show.
Stephanie Kramer 52:05
Thank you so much, Chris, thank you for the space for the conversation and everything that you've created it really, it's so important. And for new HR leaders like me, it's it's a gift. So thank you so much.
Chris Rainey 52:16
No, I love it. Where can people grab a copy of the book? The best place to send them? Yes.
Stephanie Kramer 52:21
Well, you can visit Kerry strong project. That's the website for the book. And you'll see several of the booksellers it's available wherever books are sold. But also you can listen to it or you can have it on your Kindle. So e readers, audible and also the the real deal. One thing that's kind of cool in the book, I encourage those of you to do have the physical book is the first page actually says pass it on. So if you one of the most important points for me of this entire book is that that people don't feel alone and they feel supported. So even, you know, you're listening to this for your wife, or your friend or your colleague, you sign your name, and you share it with your support. So you're basically saying like, I get it, I'm here for you. This is this is for you. And the goal would be someday if I see a book that has a tonne of signatures, that'd be pretty, pretty darn proud.
Chris Rainey 53:12
I love that because people will notice that but in there, there was multiple lines. So you can have multiple people. So by the time it gets to you, you can that's a that's an incredible idea. I love that
Stephanie Kramer 53:22
much cooler to hand off those books than the ones that like my friends gave me that were you know about like breastfeeding and stuff like Thank you. Back of, of resource books about no toddler tantrums, I won't get to later but
Chris Rainey 53:37
we'll we all have those in the beginning, right? I didn't get through hardly any of those. And even the ones that I read to still didn't prepare me beforehand, because after I don't want to put any extra work on your plate.
Stephanie Kramer 53:50
So no, no. And it just would you just say carry strong carry strong project. Not is that.com Yes, it's great.
Chris Rainey 54:00
So as always, for anyone listening right now the links in the description. So make sure you go grab a copy of the book there. Also make sure you connect on LinkedIn, you're on LinkedIn right so I think this will be good. You posted great articles there and post there so make sure you follow there and yeah, I wish all the best. Until we until the next week. Alright, see ya much. Bye
Stephanie Kramer 54:21
bye

Recommended Resources

Follow Stephanie on LinkedIn
Learn more about L'Oréal USA
📕 Grab a copy of her book

Discover 13 tools for nailing your KPIs

Introducing the 365Talents ROI Toolbox, a collection of articles, assessments, calculators and other resources to help you build, implement and deliver on the business value of skills technology.

Learn More