WPP's Journey Towards Racial Equity

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In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Stacie Graham, Global Director - Racial Equity Programme at WPP.

Stacie shares her insights on conflict management as a critical competency for leaders and the importance of creating a safe space for open conversations about experiences and backgrounds in the workplace. She also discusses the impact of intergenerational and ancestral traumas on how individuals show up in the workspace and the importance of acknowledging these histories.

Episode Highlights

WPP’s commitment to invest $30 million over three years for inclusion and racial equity programmes and supporting external organisations
Why leaders should be good at managing disagreements and should encourage open discussions
Diversity Conversations: Everyone, not just minorities, should be involved in talks about racism and sexism
Stacie Talks about how past family traumas can affect how people behave at work
How AI can stop ads from showing up in harmful online spaces

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00:00
I had the joy, the privilege of hosting an event at WPP, several of our agencies hosted
00:09
an event to celebrate, to commemorate, to honor the win-rest generation.
00:14
And I hosted something earlier in June, and we had Professor David Olushoga talking to
00:20
us about really setting the scene, the historical scene, and really talking about the contributions
00:26
known and unknown of, you know, people who came to this country to rebuild it. After fighting
00:34
an award, you know, coming here, leaving what they knew, leaving the familiar, to be discriminated against, to live in some ways,
00:46
you know, to almost start over again
00:48
from associating economic positioning.
00:50
And, you know, those are things that we don't often bring
00:54
into the workspace and some of the feedback that we heard
00:57
from that evening, we had when Rush survivors also
00:59
speaking on a panel.
01:01
So, you know, it was a good group of people
01:03
and some of the feedback that we heard was,
01:06
my 30 years and my 20 years of working somewhere, I've never experienced this. And what
01:14
they meant was an open conversation.
01:16
I'll say just even the conversation. Open conversation about their parents experiences
01:22
or their grandparents experiences. And then of course it ended with some great Caribbean food, so everyone was really happy.
01:34
I've won Welcome Back to the HR leaders podcast.
01:37
On today's episode, I'm joined by Dr Stacey Graham, who's an executive coach, founder,
01:43
global director of racial equity programs at WPP,
01:47
and author of the book Yoga as Resistance,
01:50
Equity and Inclusion on and off the map.
01:52
During episode, Stacey talks about WPP's commitment
01:55
to invest 30 million over three years
01:58
for inclusion and racial equity programs
02:01
and to support their external organizations.
02:04
She also talks about their mind share impact index and AI human safety tool to
02:09
examine the social impact of editorial content on historically underrepresented communities
02:15
to make media more intentional and more equitable. As always, before we jump into the video,
02:20
make sure you hit the subscribe button, turn on the notification bell, and follow
02:24
on your favorite podcast platform. Would that be instead? Let's jump in. which I'm gonna do the video, make sure you hit the subscribe button, turn on the notification bell and follow
02:25
on your favorite podcast platform.
02:26
Would that be instead?
02:27
Let's jump in.
02:29
Say it's welcome to the show, how are you?
02:30
- Thank you, I'm well.
02:32
- Nice to see you.
02:33
- It's cooled down a little bit here in London.
02:34
- So.
02:35
- That good thing about bad thing,
02:36
because I'm like complaining normally down so hot.
02:39
But you like, oh, thank God.
02:40
It's the hot old one.
02:41
- You know what, after spending last weekend,
02:43
can I'm actually quite okay with it only being 23, 24 degrees.
02:48
I hope it's it there.
02:49
Oh, we were always very close to 30 degrees.
02:51
Oh, all right.
02:52
And no, one day we had overcast, one day it was windy,
02:55
but it was mostly just sun.
02:56
Nice. You're definitely a kind of festival.
02:59
Yeah. So the Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity,
03:01
it was the 70th edition, which was really exciting.
03:05
And with the 70th edition, there were,
03:09
"Wow, I don't wanna criticize
03:12
"because I really love the people who organize it."
03:15
But I just felt like the panels were,
03:17
we mostly talked about AI.
03:19
- This is the buzzword right now.
03:21
- That's the buzzword.
03:22
I put a machine, I put a machine,
03:23
I put an AI all day, yeah.
03:24
- And the thing is, AI has been around for years. The reason we're talking buzzword right now. - That's the buzzword. I put a machine up here in AI all day, yeah. - And the thing is, AI has been around for years.
03:27
The reason we're talking about it right now
03:29
is because of chat GPT at the end of the day, right?
03:33
Which is content generation.
03:35
That's one sliver of AI, AI is so much more than that.
03:38
But other than that, it's always great.
03:40
It's a great experience to be in a place
03:42
where everyone is there at the same time, right?
03:44
So you can
03:45
have great meetings, you can connect with friends, peers, colleagues, you have a scene since the last
03:50
can. And really, I don't want to sound entitled to listeners. Obviously, it's a privilege.
03:57
Just been the week on the French Riviera with beautiful weather, beautiful beaches, obviously,
04:03
celebrities are there as well,
04:05
eating great food, most people drinking their rosé.
04:08
- I know you're just showing off now.
04:09
(laughing)
04:11
People listen and I'm like,
04:12
"I don't know where you're listening from right now,
04:14
"but people probably get us."
04:16
- Yeah, I'm about.
04:17
- Yeah, before we go, jump in more.
04:19
Like, tell everyone a little bit more about you personally
04:22
and your journey to where we are now.
04:24
- Of course, so I'm just going to do this because I live in London and I find no
04:31
where else in the world are people so accent obsessed.
04:35
But this is why you've wrong.
04:36
Yes, it's, and then, you know, I actually had someone ask me recently, oh, you've lived
04:42
in London so long and your accent hasn't evolved?"
04:45
And I was kind of like, "Oh, that's an interesting word choice evolved."
04:50
So yes, I am originally from the US, but I haven't lived outside of the US longer than
04:55
I lived in it actually.
04:57
And when I talk about home, I'm typically referring to Germany, where I lived for many
05:02
years, where I studied, is where I completed my doctorate.
05:07
And now I've lived in London for almost a decade.
05:09
London is also home, of course.
05:12
And career wise,
05:14
I always say even though it's kind of,
05:17
ooh, you shouldn't say it if you work in the ad,
05:20
or creative industry,
05:20
but professionally, most of my career,
05:23
I've worked as a management and strategy consultant.
05:25
And now I have the privilege to work as a WPP's global director
05:32
for the racial equity program.
05:34
And I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit more,
05:36
but just to kind of say what it is.
05:39
Obviously, we all remember what was happening in 2020,
05:41
whether we want to or not.
05:43
So many things were happening at once.
05:45
And after George Floyd's murder,
05:47
our CEO, Mark Reed, made a commitment on behalf
05:50
of the entire network.
05:52
So WPP is the largest advertising holding.
05:54
It is a holding company that encompasses very many agencies
05:59
and brands.
06:00
And the commitment was--
06:03
there were three points to that anti-racism commitment,
06:05
the third being to invest $30 million over three years to advance racial equity. And I have
06:11
the privilege of leading that $30 million commitment. Wow, so much to unpack there.
06:16
Let's start with how did you end up in Germany? Oh, that was, it was pure choice.
06:22
I always wish to embellish the story,
06:25
but there is nothing too embellish.
06:26
Unfortunately, I was learning German already in the US
06:32
and really desired something else.
06:36
I knew I wanted to go far away from where I was.
06:38
So I'm originally from the South.
06:39
I love the South.
06:40
But I knew I just wanted a different experience.
06:43
And I chose Germany because I was learning the language and they don't charge tuition
06:48
It was speculative if you were foreign student or a resident so I chose Germany and
06:56
stayed
06:57
You studied I studied in Germany yet. I was not experienced. I wasn't a bit of a culture shock from
07:03
that all my oh it was a culture shock from that all- maybe a nice... Oh, it was a culture shock but probably you know it's funny in many ways
07:10
it makes sense that I wound up in Germany. I love a lot about kind of you know
07:14
if you will the stereotypes. I love people are straightforward, there's a
07:18
directness, you know where you stand, there's a structure to things, I love
07:23
structure, I love order,
07:25
all of those kind of stereotypical things.
07:27
But also, you know, I had a phenomenal education.
07:33
I feel really lucky to have studied where I studied.
07:37
I also had the privilege because of the city
07:40
that I was in.
07:41
There were Americans, so it was a transition I eased into, if you will,
07:46
because I worked on an army post.
07:49
But I speak German fluently, in some ways,
07:53
I tell people often, depending on what I'm talking about,
07:56
I speak German better.
07:59
And so I loved and continue to love so much about Germany and then at the same time inhabiting
08:07
the body that I inhabit, it was challenging.
08:10
I mean Germany does look different today but it still has its challenges and there are
08:16
plenty of Germany-born black Germans who are denied their Germanness, right?
08:25
And so it was a challenging experience to always
08:30
be on display.
08:32
And that's what I love about London,
08:35
sometimes it's maybe too much,
08:36
but the anonymity that you can enjoy, you know?
08:38
- Never before, part there.
08:40
- Yeah.
08:41
- Because when I grew up, the majority of my class
08:44
were black. There's two white kids in the class, I was one of them majority of my class were black,
08:46
there's two white kids in the class, I was one of them.
08:48
- And you were one of them.
08:49
- The opposite.
08:50
So when you say that you're,
08:52
well my friends would say I'm from the UK, you're like,
08:54
of course.
08:55
- Right.
08:56
- But whenever, but from your perspective,
08:58
you see about person in Germany,
09:00
are you German?
09:01
- Right, that's exactly the way I actually,
09:03
it's not possible.
09:04
- That's not the reaction in the UK. You wouldn't even think about that.
09:08
Because London's so diverse that you are very interesting. I would never even
09:14
would have thought about it from that perspective as well. So I can imagine that obviously
09:18
how would you say that that that shaped you? You know it it wasn't a straight line.
09:24
Right? There were a lot of different phases to it.
09:27
So at first, there was a lot of defiance
09:29
because I was coming from a place where my existence
09:34
as such was not questioned, not to claim
09:36
that the US doesn't have many problems of its own,
09:38
but the fact that I'm walking down the street
09:41
wasn't questioned, oh, she can't possibly be from here.
09:44
And I literally was confronted in many ways
09:48
on a regular basis, just like, why are you here?
09:51
- Really? - Yes.
09:53
And then, you know, once it really felt like home,
09:56
then I moved into a different space,
09:58
depending on my capacity.
09:59
I would try to engage people in conversations
10:02
to help them kind of unlayer why they think a certain way or expect people to be from
10:10
somewhere that they're not. And then also I feel like there are certain spots in
10:14
Germany where I found community and that definitely helped. And then when
10:19
you have that community it feels less burdensome because you know you're
10:23
not carrying that weight alone. I love that. And it feels like burdensome because you know you're not carrying that weight alone. - Mmm, I love that.
10:25
And it feels like a lot of the choices you've made
10:29
have really helped shape your journey and experience
10:31
to this new role.
10:32
- Yes.
10:33
- Yeah.
10:34
- And because you talk about the diversity of thought,
10:36
perspective, you've lived in multiple continents.
10:38
- Right.
10:39
- You've experienced it directly personally.
10:41
- Right.
10:42
- So there's a real connection there as well.
10:46
So tell us a little bit more about this role.
10:48
Global Director Racial Equity Program, WVV.
10:51
What does that mean?
10:52
What is your role?
10:53
Sure.
10:54
Maybe we should start with more of how that came to life.
10:56
You mentioned briefly around doing investment.
10:59
I talked more about the role and how it evolved.
11:01
Sure.
11:02
I think the role has evolved with me because it didn't exist previously.
11:06
Yeah. And when I started, I started in lockdown, which had its pros and cons. So the pros were
11:14
I got to meet with so many senior leaders in my first two to three weeks. And that would have
11:20
never happened if people were allowed to travel. So I really talked to our country manager in India,
11:27
our country manager in China.
11:30
I talked to people in the UK and the US and South Africa,
11:34
really to understand, you know, where is WPP
11:37
and its entire network right now?
11:40
Where do people see our strengths
11:42
and where do people see things that we need to change and what came out of that pretty quickly was
11:48
this is not about
11:51
talent recruitment and retention. This is really about how can we leverage what WPP does best to
11:58
positively impact
12:00
wider parts of society while transforming the industry. Now that's a big ambition obviously.
12:06
And what I coined for the program is let's be bold,
12:13
audacious and creative.
12:15
And I think that's the only way that we'll get to change, right?
12:17
Because if it were as easy as hiring some folks
12:20
or doing some unconscious bias trainings,
12:23
it would have been done.
12:25
But it's not that easy.
12:27
And since I've started, what I have experienced is one,
12:32
a lot of internal support people saying,
12:35
"Wow, I didn't know we were doing this.
12:37
I'm really proud that WPP is doing this.
12:39
How can I be a part of this?"
12:41
And so I created a framework that is truly inclusive
12:44
and transparent, so that different people can be a part of it
12:47
and we have funded over 18 projects so far which I'm really excited about and they span so many different things
12:54
So just to give two examples. I know I'm kind of going on now
12:58
But I want people to really understand what we're doing two examples and I'll use an AI example actually
13:04
two examples and I'll use an AI example actually. - All right.
13:05
(laughing)
13:07
- In our media space, one of our agencies' mindshare
13:12
has created a project called Impact Index.
13:15
And we've started in the US, but we, the plan is for this
13:18
to be global where we support clients to ensure that
13:21
their advertisements aren't showing up in toxic spaces online.
13:26
And so we've done that with a university partner
13:29
and academic institution to create the algorithms
13:33
and use machine learning so that we can find a way
13:37
that they recognize this is toxic versus
13:41
this is a statement effect.
13:43
And a lot of people, when I give that example, they think,
13:45
oh, does that not already exist, but it actually doesn't?
13:48
- Well, it would be an example of it
13:49
turning up in the toxic environment.
13:51
- Hmm, hmm.
13:52
I don't want to name anything, but you know,
13:55
if you, let's say, if you, you know,
13:57
you're referring to certain threads on certain social media
14:00
platforms, what do you mean by that?
14:02
- Sure, so if you are, well I can use Tyson foods
14:06
because that is a named client that we worked with already.
14:09
If you're Tyson foods, you want people to know
14:12
that your brand is really welcoming to everyone.
14:15
So you wouldn't wanna show up, let's say,
14:17
on a populist site that incites violence
14:22
against certain populations. Right?
14:25
And the UNDC, where's it going?
14:29
Fully getting out.
14:30
You don't even need to spend anymore.
14:32
Okay, it said, I'm like many others that you just mentioned.
14:36
I thought that was already existed.
14:38
You could measure to an extent, to an extent.
14:41
To an extent.
14:42
But, you know, today things are very fast moving. - Yeah, I can imagine.
14:45
- And we don't always know when we go to a site.
14:50
We can't, we don't always recognize,
14:51
so maybe it's not even a site.
14:52
Maybe it's a story that has appeared somewhere.
14:56
And the story has taken a turn that is unexpected.
15:01
This algorithm will recognize that and prevent the harm that would be
15:06
caused to our brands that we support. Incredible. So you're going to roll that across all of the
15:11
business. That is the plan. Once we're really certain that it works. And that's something
15:17
you're working with, say, mind share. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. That's that's that's that's
15:22
something traditionally that when you told me
15:26
about your role, that wouldn't have been something
15:27
that would have come to mind?
15:28
- Probably not.
15:29
Yeah.
15:30
- In a good way.
15:31
- In a good way, exactly.
15:32
- Yeah, I mean.
15:33
- That's again, right?
15:34
Think big.
15:35
Like how can we do more than just impact
15:39
within our own four walls?
15:41
- What are some of your examples?
15:42
You mentioned another one.
15:44
- Another, let me think.
15:46
So there's a great one from here in the UK.
15:50
I'll use an example.
15:52
Something called the Consumer Equality Equation Report,
15:56
which was a joint project between Oglewee, Group M, and WPP.
16:02
And it's actually the first report of its kind.
16:04
So it's looking at defined it's defined six ethnicity groups,
16:08
including white British, to really explore
16:11
what is the consumer experience across ethnicities.
16:14
And to my surprise, again, it's never been done in the UK.
16:17
So in other countries, it has been done very few actually.
16:21
But you can't take, let's say, data that you have on the US and just transfer
16:28
it over, right? And so what we looked at first was different sectors. So what is the consumer
16:34
experience across luxury, fashion, and so forth? And then we also looked at particular brands
16:41
and we created a model that hadn't been created before to show what the, you know,
16:48
disposable income over time will be for minority ethnic populations.
16:53
And that is, of course, huge because I think a lot of people, including, you know,
16:59
those populations themselves underestimate the power that they hold and the income that they have
17:05
and the choices that they have you don't have to shop somewhere where they
17:11
follow you around the store because they think you shouldn't be there right but
17:15
we also learned that for example I had an experience like that the other day
17:20
but it's you really my wife my wife's black. - Okay. - And we were in, I'm not gonna mention a shop
17:26
'cause I feel like that's, yeah, I don't wanna put me
17:28
in one on blast.
17:30
But we were buying quite a few things
17:32
and the woman behind that till she was scanning.
17:36
- Sure.
17:36
- And she said to my wife, she didn't see,
17:38
not that it matters if I was standing back to my wife,
17:40
but she didn't see me observing from,
17:42
couple of meters away with my daughter.
17:44
And she said to Natasha
17:47
are you aware how much this cost? Uh huh, yeah. And I'll ask this. Yeah classic though.
17:55
Yeah yeah. Oh you see a young black woman and you're in a you know quite high end shop and
18:00
you are so disrespectful. Tasha didn't even really take it personally. She just kind of just kind of brushed
18:07
off. But I was more feinting. But I was like, I never because I've never had that question personally.
18:13
Okay. So on. So when I was younger, there was one experience when I was younger when I went into
18:18
a mother back, Steve as ship and I was wearing a track suit and I have my accent from East London.
18:23
Right. Right. and I went to buy
18:25
the motorbike and they said you also need finance. And then there was some.
18:30
And that time I was in very, very well in business. So I was like no I want to buy it.
18:37
And then he was like oh but you need a plan. I was like no and I was like bring me someone else.
18:43
Anyway so it's interesting. So what was the main takeaway from the
18:48
report? Well, there there are few, first of all, what I will say is, and
18:53
this is why it was important that all ethnicities were included,
18:56
right, that both white British and minority ethnic British folks
19:01
think that racism is a problem that needs to be addressed. There was an insignificant difference between those two groups. I think that racism is a problem that needs to be addressed.
19:05
There was an insignificant difference between those two groups.
19:09
I think also that what people need to understand is two things.
19:13
By 2061, there will be an accumulated 16 trillion pounds of disposable income in this block,
19:21
if you will, of the population that is to my knowledge still quite underestimated and it's buying power.
19:27
And then also, you know, a brand by just changing, you know,
19:31
1% of its behavior that can already have an effect in the
19:35
billions.
19:36
And so it's not that I'm trying to sell that you should do it
19:42
simply because of the commercial potential.
19:46
But what, you know, we just have to be honest,
19:48
that businesses are here to make money, to make profit.
19:53
And there will always be people who are not really
19:57
interested in it for moral or ethical reasons.
20:01
They need the commercial part of it.
20:03
And this report really highlights where brands can do better.
20:07
- Yeah.
20:08
And what was some of the examples?
20:10
Follow around the store?
20:11
What are some of those examples where they can do better?
20:13
- Oh, easy example, which I think we,
20:16
in London especially we'll all know,
20:19
when you go into a grocery store
20:22
and anything that isn't like pasta or tomato paste is in like
20:27
the world foods or international section? Okay I think if you think about one.
20:31
That came up in our focus groups that that is another form of othering.
20:36
Yeah why can't they just be next to... Yeah. It's true like if you go in... I'm just
20:40
gonna say you're going in any sort of Tesco as the you know if I go to my
20:43
Tesco next to me you're're right, you got the aisle.
20:45
And I think things that I love in those hours,
20:48
which I'll go and grab,
20:48
but why aren't they just next to the other milkshakes?
20:51
Well, in the next to the other pasta,
20:53
why don't they have the next sauces?
20:54
- Right.
20:55
- Why they do something next to the every other sauce?
20:57
Why does it have to have its own aisle?
20:59
- Exactly.
21:01
- And every thought about that one.
21:02
- Yeah, that stands out for me
21:03
because I live in a burrow
21:06
that's 30 plus percent bangladeche.
21:09
And it's very interesting from corner store
21:13
to corner store, it's different.
21:15
- That's his own culture, right?
21:16
- It's own culture.
21:17
- And it's like, specifically,
21:18
you may have a Polish specific shop,
21:21
bangladeche shop, and we used to that growing up
21:24
that you have your own shops.
21:25
You have your own shops.
21:26
But when you go to, you know, I'm not going to name brands and I want to get in trouble.
21:31
But if I go to the one that's closest to me, it's not, it is of course a smaller one.
21:36
It's not labeled in that way because everyone who lives around me is looking for those,
21:43
you know, we want our pickle or whatever
21:46
it is, but the the the the larger one just a mile down the road, it goes back to, you know,
21:52
world foods or international section or whatever it's called. Yeah. When when um, what
21:58
is your day today? Don't lie. Just like for us. Every day is different. Yeah. To be really honest, so I wake up, I'm a yoga practitioner, so there's going to be some
22:10
breath and movement.
22:12
Then, mm.
22:14
I have an email checker, so I like to get through my emails first.
22:23
And it's funny because I feel like I'm most creative in the morning.
22:25
So before lunch is like my peak creative time.
22:29
But I love to just take 30 minutes or however long.
22:33
And I'm a zero in boxer.
22:35
So I get through my emails.
22:37
And then I feel like this freedom to do creative things.
22:42
Of course, with my role at WPP,
22:45
I am in conversation all the time.
22:47
So for example, with those 18 projects,
22:49
that means I have 18 project owners,
22:52
and I meet with them every two to four weeks.
22:54
- And there's a country manager's or a direct report,
22:57
so what does that work?
22:58
- So it depends on the project.
22:59
So any project will have come through an agency,
23:02
and the project owners are people who submitted the proposal.
23:08
So in some cases, they are very senior people who are involved.
23:12
And in some cases, they may be kind of in middle managers.
23:16
And we meet every two to four weeks so that I'm up to date on how things are going.
23:22
I can act as a subject matter expert, a sounding board, also a connector,
23:27
because I'll get the question,
23:29
has any other project experience this challenge?
23:32
So I do have a lot of meetings,
23:33
but I try to one thing that the people
23:37
who schedule my diary know is,
23:39
I cook for myself every day.
23:41
And so especially if I'm working from home.
23:43
So if I'm working from home,
23:45
there has to be an hour in my diary
23:47
where I can come.
23:48
- No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
23:49
(laughs)
23:50
- I'm very boundary in that way.
23:53
And then, you know, I have some other things that I do,
23:58
and I tend to do those more in the evening.
24:00
So I run retreats, wellness,
24:03
holistic wellness retreats for black women and women of color.
24:06
And so a lot of the time I'll try to, I'm very bad with social media.
24:11
I have to admit, I really don't like it.
24:14
In terms of having to, you know, necessarily all the time.
24:18
That kind of links back, though, quickly I want to mention to our original point about the
24:21
experience, because I remember I listened to a podcast with you
24:25
where you spoke about the reason that you started the yoga is that when you went to those
24:29
retreats or the classes you're one of one of if the only like person woman or even person
24:36
yes there right yeah and that was that the inspiration I'm assuming behind. - Yeah, that is, yes, thank you. So I founded Oya Body Mind Spirit Retreats in 2016.
24:48
And it was really, so when I went to India the first time
24:53
in 2012, I had been practicing yoga at that point
24:57
for about five years.
24:59
And I wasn't until I went to India
25:00
that I learned anything about the fact that
25:02
this is where the practice is from.
25:03
It's actually not just a physical practice. It's a wisdom and faith tradition and so on and so forth.
25:08
And so that changed my perspective completely. And after I went back to India to train as a teacher,
25:14
then I really started paying attention. It didn't matter if it was a mindfulness or a meditation or
25:19
a silent retreat, whatever I was doing, I was almost always the only one. And it didn't matter what
25:24
country. So if someone's saying, " well, you did say you lived in Germany.
25:27
It didn't matter if it was Germany.
25:29
Here in the UK, I've had that experience as well.
25:32
And there's so much that you have to hold
25:35
when you are the only anything in a space.
25:38
And I think anyone who's had that experience,
25:40
maybe if you've been the only man in a space
25:42
or the only, you know,
25:45
neurodivergent person in a space, right? It's, there's so much you feel like you
25:50
have to hold that you can't fully let go. And in a space like a retreat that is
25:56
exactly what you're being asked to do, right? And so I made the decision to
26:01
start those retreats. They've been going all of those years.
26:06
And what's beautiful about it is we've created community
26:09
in different places.
26:10
So I've held retreats outside of Johannesburg.
26:13
I've held retreats outside of Amsterdam.
26:17
And it's the feedback that we get is,
26:21
I didn't know, sometimes it's, I was afraid to come.
26:24
I didn't know what was going to happen and then when I got here I knew exactly
26:28
what I needed or it was exactly what I needed I didn't know what I needed or
26:33
I've never felt so seen right and so it keeps us going it's an you know I've
26:40
had the opportunity to work with amazing people I don't run them by myself I
26:43
have a faculty of wonderful people I work with.
26:46
And then, you know, most importantly,
26:49
that coming back to my path,
26:51
an unexpected thing that happened in 2020 was,
26:55
do you remember when those black squares
26:57
went up on Instagram?
26:58
- Oh, yes I do.
26:59
(laughing)
27:00
- And actually that was a huge mistake.
27:02
Most people didn't know why they were posting black squares,
27:04
but anyway, that's beside the point.
27:07
But a lot of people were trying to do that out of solidarity.
27:10
And a lot of communities were like,
27:12
you know what, we're not going to let you do that.
27:15
We've tried raising these issues for so long
27:17
if you've not listened to us.
27:19
And to my, I don't know why I was surprised,
27:21
but to my surprise, so many of the OYAH community members were like,
27:25
you have to go work with her.
27:26
I was like, oh, I didn't even know you knew I was a consultant.
27:29
And so I wound up working with so many yoga brands,
27:34
yoga studios, teacher training schools,
27:38
who were really at the beginning of their journeys.
27:43
And that's how I wound up writing my book because at some point I just recognize I'm actually saying the
27:49
same thing over and over and over. You can't be everywhere.
27:52
I want to offer people the opportunity to have at least some of the learning.
27:57
The book is yoga resistance. Yoga as resistance, equity and inclusion on and off
28:01
the mat and I'm really excited it came out last year And the audio version is coming out in a couple of weeks.
28:07
You can preorder from today with the day we're recording.
28:10
But I think you can actually buy it on July 11th
28:13
if I'm not mistaken, which was also really important to me
28:16
because I can't write a book about equity and inclusion
28:19
and not have a version that's accessible to a larger audience.
28:24
- So it's not just aimed at yoga.
28:27
- It's very specific to yoga and at the same time,
28:30
what I tell people is there's a section on brands
28:34
and that section is for any brand.
28:37
What I put in the section on how to skillfully navigate,
28:42
a crisis moment, any brand can read that.
28:44
- Those principles are transferable regardless of industry
28:47
of company.
28:48
- Exactly.
28:49
- Yeah.
28:49
- Love that.
28:50
And yeah.
28:51
Again, it feels like all of these pieces come together for you.
28:54
- Yes.
28:55
- And this is all before this role.
28:56
- Yes.
28:57
(laughing)
28:58
- So I think no one's just listening to this is surprised
29:00
to you that you landed.
29:02
And 'cause when I looked at your,
29:04
so I was talking a little bit on your, so I stopped, I was
29:05
talking to you a little bit on LinkedIn. I was like, I saw your, your journey and experience. And I
29:10
was like, oh, why, how did this, WP, P roll come out of, of nowhere? And what made you apply for this?
29:17
You know, you're doing all these great things. You got a business you're running, you got a consultant,
29:20
you got the book, why then commit to one organization?
29:25
- For me personally, I was at a point where I didn't feel like
29:29
I was going to grow from the consulting work I was getting.
29:32
I felt like I was doing similar same things over and over,
29:36
which is important, but I'm a person who likes to be challenged
29:39
and I just felt for me personally, I want to grow.
29:42
After giving it a lot of thought, I was like,
29:45
I think the growth will happen going into a larger
29:48
organization.
29:49
WBB is very large.
29:50
We have something like 115,000 employees across the world.
29:55
It's very matrix.
29:57
There's a lot to navigate.
29:58
So I've definitely had that stretch opportunity.
30:03
And then on the other part of it was there were two things.
30:07
One, the specificity of the role title,
30:11
it was racial equity, and I always tell people,
30:15
I work with racial and intersectional equity.
30:20
And so what does that mean?
30:21
That means that it's a race first positioning
30:24
of intersectional equity.
30:25
Because I think if we look at most conversations
30:29
around diversity pre 2020, it was really gender diversity.
30:33
And if we get down to it, it was mostly white women
30:36
at the end of the day, because people weren't taking
30:38
into consideration that black women and women of color
30:41
have different challenges.
30:43
And so a lot of the things that were
30:45
being addressed in tech, for example, or in STEM, they weren't going to really meet the needs
30:50
of women of color and black women. They were really just about gender diversity, which was
30:55
about white women. And so I enjoyed or I really had great respect for the opportunity to
31:00
have racial equity in my title. And then again, it was in the job profile
31:06
about the 30 million. And I was like, okay, so there's an actual budget involved here.
31:09
Let's go for it. Love it. And, and to your point, you're doing it on scale, right?
31:15
A large organization, which is touching 100,000 employees, eternally, but millions of customers,
31:22
right?
31:22
Hence a millions of customers that they reach.
31:25
And all of the brands that you work with,
31:27
so there's a real sort of ripple effect
31:29
of what you're doing out.
31:32
- That's the opportunity.
31:33
- You're internally your clients and then their clients
31:36
and then, exactly.
31:37
- It's a huge kind of net.
31:40
To do your costs.
31:41
What does your relationship look like
31:42
with the HR team, the DEI team?
31:45
Because when we spoke, you pulled me up
31:48
and you was like, no, no, not DEI, Chris.
31:50
- Yeah.
31:51
- This is what I specifically do and I was like,
31:53
oh, okay.
31:54
(laughing)
31:55
So what does that look like?
31:56
- Sure.
31:56
So we have a chief talent and inclusion officer at WPP,
32:00
she joined last year.
32:02
And her, I think I've heard her describe it.
32:04
I hope I'm getting it right. I'm paraphrasing
32:07
She would describe her role as focused on the employee lifecycle
32:12
So you know very much internally focused on ensuring that the employee lifecycle is a positive experience for any employee
32:19
Irrespective of background and you know all the different social identity categories.
32:25
And so that's obviously really fundamental because we can't, as WPP, go and, you know,
32:30
create these amazing projects and not be tending to our own house, right?
32:36
So that I think is the key part that it makes the work that I do more authentic because
32:43
we're also addressing internal issues.
32:45
- Yeah, yeah, but who do you report into?
32:48
- So I originally, that's a bit of a complicated one.
32:51
(laughing)
32:54
I originally reported into our head of corporate affairs
32:58
and now there's been this transition
33:01
where I do report into the chief talent and inclusion office
33:09
Yeah, wait did it make sense in terms of the way like you just described
33:15
You're doing a lot of this internally you're kind of sharing externally with your customers and the communities that you serve Right, so it's gonna be a
33:17
Close relationship of course. Yeah, and I'm sure it's somewhat similar with HR in that sense right
33:22
Though I am a bit critical. I have to I have to be true to who I am
33:27
because if I didn't say it people would be like Stacy. I do find it not the most strategic
33:35
placement if you're ahead of if it's whatever whatever you call them it might be CDO chief diversity
33:41
officer or chief talent inclusion, whatever. If that person
33:45
reports into the chief people officer, I don't think that's the best way to do it.
33:51
I agree. There are two kind of fundamental, there are many reasons, but I think two fundamental
33:56
reasons are one, when we think about diversity equity and inclusion, we have to think again,
34:02
as I said earlier, we have to think about that from a strategic
34:05
point of view and it has to be integrated across the organization and it has to also mean business
34:10
transformation not just talent, right? Talent focus and I think that person needs to be reporting
34:16
into either a CEO or a CEO. That's how I see it also though to build trust internally for people who have previously experienced
34:28
or felt discriminated against, does it really make sense for the person who's meant to
34:33
address that change that, to support into, if you will, the institution that has been
34:38
responsible for it thus far.
34:41
Yeah, because some people kind of end up seeing it, I was just another HR initiative.
34:45
- Exactly.
34:46
- Instead of really the businesses committed,
34:48
they've invested, it's so serious that now
34:52
that financial report's direct,
34:53
it's a CEO in many companies,
34:55
so I agree with you from that perspective.
34:58
What's the legacy you want to leave behind?
35:01
- Mm, big question.
35:03
I was just asked this in Cannes,
35:05
(laughs)
35:06
and I had a big answer for it.
35:09
And I, and it was completely spontaneous.
35:12
So today it's not as spontaneous,
35:14
but that felt that resonated when I said it last week
35:17
when I was asked the same question.
35:19
For me, the legacy is broadly
35:23
that I want to leave this industry, leave this world definitely
35:32
in a better place for people who look like me.
35:36
And what does that mean?
35:37
That means that we have the choice, the ability to be mediocre) And we have the opportunity to do great things.
35:47
And it's a real choice, right?
35:49
And in doing that and doing that work,
35:54
I'm hoping through my holistic wellness practices
35:58
that I'm also healing intergenerational
36:00
and ancestral traumas that we don't often talk about in a corporate
36:05
space or a workspace, but absolutely affect how each of us are showing up.
36:11
There are many conversations that feel really uncomfortable for people, and that's because
36:15
we've been unwilling to talk about the histories that we all come from.
36:20
But we celebrated when rest day last week, And I had the joy, the privilege of hosting an event
36:29
at WPP several of our agencies hosted
36:33
an event to celebrate, to commemorate, to honor
36:38
the Winrest Generation.
36:39
And I hosted something earlier in June.
36:42
And we had Professor David Olushoga talking to us about really
36:45
setting the scene, the historical scene, and really talking about the
36:49
contributions known and unknown of, you know, people who came to this country to
36:55
rebuild it. After fighting a war, you know, coming here, leaving what they knew, leaving the familiar, to be discriminated
37:06
against, to live in some ways, you know, to almost start over again from associate economic
37:13
positioning.
37:15
And you know, those are things that we don't often bring into the workspace and some
37:19
of the feedback that we heard from that evening.
37:22
We had when Rush survivors also speaking on a panel.
37:25
So it was a good group of people.
37:28
And some of the feedback that we heard was my 30 years and my
37:32
20 years of working somewhere.
37:35
I've never experienced this.
37:38
And what they meant was an open conversation.
37:40
I'll just say, just even the conversation. - Open conversation about, you know,
37:45
their parents' experiences or their grandparents' experiences.
37:48
And then of course it ended with some great Caribbean food.
37:51
So everyone was really happy.
37:52
- It's interesting because before I got with Natasha,
37:56
I had no idea about any of that stuff.
37:57
- Right.
37:58
- As a white male.
37:59
And speaking to Tasha's parents and grandparents,
38:02
you know, did that come up in conversations?
38:05
And when I first heard when Rush was like,
38:07
what's that, what's that?
38:08
- Oh, yeah.
38:09
- I had no idea.
38:09
And I really didn't,
38:10
many of my other, like, male or female white friends
38:14
delivered.
38:15
So I was like, wow, like,
38:16
while I'm only learning about this at 25 years old,
38:20
this is something we spoke about in school
38:22
or as well when I was like wow I didn't even
38:25
I never even saw
38:27
Saw that so it's important to have those conversations
38:30
I think a lot of people saw probably listening right now and I have no idea what you know what I'm talking about
38:34
What you're talking about?
38:36
I think that's the case as well
38:38
So that person to say hey, this is the first time we've had a conversation in 20 years
38:43
We're dressed this I'm kind of I can't even imagine how that must feel
38:47
You know, oh, oh now we're in this conversation in a good way. No, it's a good way. Yeah, we're starting it
38:52
as well what what advice
38:54
There are many companies don't have a specific person like yourself dedicated this role is kind of just a
39:01
That's done. Yeah, you know, I mean
39:04
What advice would you give that those other leaders that listening? I suppose that's gone, yeah. You know what I mean? (laughing)
39:05
What advice would you give that those other leaders that are listening?
39:09
Yeah, I think it's similar to what we hear when it's a panel about gender diversity and
39:16
it's women on the panel and it's women in the crowd.
39:20
We need everyone in this conversation and I think most people avoid the conversation
39:29
because they want to avoid the discomfort of it,
39:32
but also the potential of getting something wrong.
39:36
Everyone tries to talk about cancel culture today,
39:39
even though I would say cancel culture is very short-lived.
39:43
Most social media is very forgetful or forgiving.
39:47
But I think, as leaders, I always
39:50
say that one of the most underestimated competencies
39:52
is conflict management.
39:55
Conflict is seen as something bad, fundamentally something bad,
39:58
and something to avoid.
40:00
But it's really a negotiation, just like when many of us are trying to get on the tube during rush hour,
40:08
that's also conflict, right?
40:10
But we willingly or unwillingly negotiate those terms every morning when we ride into work.
40:16
And similarly, you know, as a leader, no one expects you to know everything.
40:21
No one expects you to be an expert across everything.
40:24
But there is an expectation
40:26
that you remain open to new things. You remain open to learning. You're able to listen to differences
40:34
of opinion. And you're able to hold that space for your team. And so what I would really encourage
40:42
all leaders to think about is what role are you playing
40:45
in creating a space where that's possible, right?
40:48
Where people can have these types of conversations as a starting point and then you as a leader
40:55
taking that conversation forward and bringing something into action.
40:58
Yeah.
40:59
But in order to do that, you have to allow yourself to be vulnerable and to say, I didn't know about
41:05
when rushed or I didn't know that much about when rushed or I didn't recognize that being
41:15
one of two in my team presents challenges.
41:21
But that's a skill that we should really demand of all leaders
41:26
is as you said is scary you are gonna make mistakes. Yeah
41:31
and
41:33
Shane and I my co-founder we always talk about when we have those conversations when the magic happens
41:39
Yes, and the people are what do you mean? I'm like at the time is scary
41:43
You know you make mistakes mistakes, you think,
41:46
"Am I gonna say something wrong and be canceled?"
41:48
- Right.
41:49
- All those things and companies are so scared now.
41:51
They say nothing at all and that's the worst thing you can do.
41:53
- That's the worst thing.
41:54
- And I was spoken about this many times before
41:55
where my wife called me out in the past and said,
41:59
"I really disappointed that you didn't save that."
42:02
Or, "You shared it with me at home,
42:05
but why aren't you not sharing that social media?
42:07
Because I'm worried about saying the wrong thing.
42:08
Right?
42:09
But it's good that I have an accountability partner, someone that can call me out or
42:13
we've seen recently, he went by me saying this, we kind of built a few events and I was like,
42:18
this is not diverse.
42:20
This is not diverse enough.
42:21
This doesn't represent our community.
42:23
You know, we can't have a panel of all white males
42:26
You know, or it doesn't even matter in any
42:30
Either way we've even had comments you would have been in the past where it's like why is it all black people on the wall
42:36
Why we don't why do not have anyone white talking about DNI?
42:39
Which is also a fair point to you important very fair point to right because they're not feeling excluded
42:44
So it is scary.
42:45
You're going to get, you're going to get every time, but it's important to start like
42:49
conversation.
42:50
What I would build on that is for me, for my point of view, it's not so much about white
42:55
people feeling excluded.
42:57
It's about white people or whatever majority we're talking about, depending on the space,
43:03
understanding that they have a role to play.
43:05
So it's not on people who experience racism every day to solve racism, right?
43:12
It's not on people who experience sexism every day to solve sexism.
43:18
So we need everyone in the conversation, genuinely and sincerely in the conversation. Also, because, yeah, surely I, in happening the body,
43:28
I and have it have no clue what it's like to go through the world
43:32
as you do, right?
43:33
And so I have, I can learn from that as well.
43:36
Maybe the learning is that I should be bolder when I walk
43:41
into spaces or maybe the learning is, oh, not everyone feels as confident as I assume just because they're a white man.
43:47
Whatever it is, we need everyone at the table.
43:51
Yeah. Well, listen, I've had a talk for you forever.
43:55
Once you get your own show as well,
43:59
before I let you go, where can people reach you if they want to reach out, say hi, connect, grab a video book,
44:03
where's the best places for people to go?
44:05
Yeah absolutely so it's easiest through my retreats and you can find the retreats on Twitter,
44:12
on Instagram, at OYA retreats so that's just OYA retreats plural with an S on the end.
44:19
And on LinkedIn I have learned that I'm kind of hard to find, which I, I, a little bit because
44:25
I tried to be a differentiator because my name is so common, even though I spell it with
44:29
an IE, Stacy Sputtle and IE.
44:31
The V1 and find me on LinkedIn, please do connect.
44:33
It's Dr. Stacy C.C. Graham.
44:36
Love it.
44:37
Well, as always, everyone, those are links to all people below.
44:39
So you have to go search anywhere.
44:40
So wherever you're listening or watching right now, the links that will be in the description.
44:44
Honestly, I really appreciate you coming in. I love what you're doing. I love your
44:48
energy. I love your story as well, right? You know, one of the reasons I love doing this show and
44:53
starting with your journey is it really shapes everything. And that's the way you are right now
44:58
and the impact that you have. And clearly your values and mission and purpose are aligned right now.
45:05
So wish you all the best until next week.
45:07
Thank you so much for the invitation, it's been great.
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