Traditional HR Values in a Tech-Driven World
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, Andrea Archer, Senior Director of HR at Altria, shares hard-won lessons on driving progressive change in manufacturing, from empowering frontline staff to overhauling legacy leadership styles to better support mental health and wellbeing.
Key takeaways from Andrea's discussion:
👉 Evolving HR Practices for Modern Manufacturing: Andrea emphasizes the importance of adapting HR strategies to meet the evolving demands of the manufacturing sector. She highlights the shift towards data-driven decision-making and innovative approaches to employee well-being, illustrating the dynamic nature of HR in this field.
💡 Deep Business Understanding in HR: With extensive experience in the HR realm, Andrea demonstrates the significance of a profound understanding of the business. This deep insight allows HR professionals to align their strategies effectively with the broader organizational goals, enhancing their role and impact.
👉 Embracing Servant Leadership: A pivotal change Andrea discusses is the move from traditional command-and-control leadership styles to servant leadership within manufacturing. This approach not only empowers front-line leaders, but also significantly boosts employee engagement and fosters a more inclusive workplace culture.
🧠 Adapting to Changing Work Environments: Confronting the unique challenges in manufacturing, Andrea talks about the importance of on-site HR presence while also acknowledging the trend towards remote work. She advocates for a balanced approach, combining traditional HR values with new, flexible working models and technological advancements.
Andrea Archer's conversation offers a deep dive into the transformative role of HR in manufacturing, providing a roadmap for HR professionals in similar challenging industries. Her experience and strategies are a testament to the evolving nature of HR and its critical impact on organizational success.
Episode Highlights:
Adapting HR strategies for evolving challenges in the manufacturing sector
Embracing servant leadership to empower frontline leaders and boost employee engagement
Navigating the balance between traditional HR values and technological advancements in a manufacturing context
Fuel skills-based organizations with Design Thinking for HR
Traditionally, the role of HR has focused on administrative tasks and policy enforcement — all of it essential, but none of it transformative. But today, that's no longer the case.
🎙️ Automatically generated Podcast Transcript
Andrea 0:00
We would have frontline leaders before they would make a decision on their own, they would check in with their boss and their boss would check in with their boss. And they'll be doing this right. So you got people standing around wondering what's going on and that do it right. Did they do it right now, what we are seeing is that these higher leaders understand that their job is to allow these lower level leaders to make decisions on their own, to be included in decisions before they are made, and the gratitude and the growth in the frontline leaders as has been exponential.
Chris Rainey 0:34
Andrea, welcome to the show. How are you?
Andrea 0:36
Wonderful. Thanks for having me. Are you been busy? Very, very busy. I think, you know, this year has been a really, really crazy, everyone thought that things would slow down once we got to normal with COVID. And I, that has not happened
Chris Rainey 0:50
in the nature of the work that you do is this time of year, just also just very busy. Because of the work that you do.
Andrea 0:55
Yeah, it's a combination. So I support a manufacturing facility primarily. And in our company, we take the end of the year and sort of slow production down. And that gives us an opportunity to do some maintenance and things like that. So it's actually just a little bit slower than it normally would be. And it will certainly kick back up full steam ahead in January. Yeah. But leading up to what we call shutdown. It was very, very busy.
Chris Rainey 1:19
Um, how long have you been with the company?
Andrea 1:21
I've been with the company for about 18 years, I've been supporting the manufacturing business for about five, wow, 18 years. What did you 18? I actually did start in HR, not here. So I've been working in HR for about over 30 years, over 31 years now.
Chris Rainey 1:36
Are you one of the people that actually chose HR as a career?
Andrea 1:40
I did. I chose HR I did. And I will tell you, I got a lot of heat for that. I got family
Chris Rainey 1:49
or like, I had
Andrea 1:50
so much fun that I think my family was just happy that I was going to school and pursuing a job. But when I told people that I was going into what I was calling human resources very early, I would get reactions like you're going into personnel with, you know, the face, you're going into person,
Chris Rainey 2:06
that was the reaction back then yeah,
Andrea 2:07
I have an MBA, I started out with a business degree in finance. And I have to tell you, I really tried and that just didn't stick with me, I felt like I
Chris Rainey 2:15
just didn't know how you have to go through it to realise what you do.
Andrea 2:21
And so I decided to go back to graduate school, and I was majoring in marketing, but took an elective in human resources, and absolutely fell in love at that. And at that moment, I knew that that was going to be the career that I'd pursue. Because in graduate school, you do a lot of case studies and things like that. And from an HR standpoint, HR management, HR principles, HR thought leadership permeates every aspect of the business. And it is the one function where you actually have to know the business across the enterprise to be effective in your craft. And that was exciting to me, I chose it and was it was hard to get into HR to be honest, it's not easy to get into HR brand new. Yeah, for some reason. But I'm so happy that I got that opportunity. Well, by now, do
Chris Rainey 3:12
you think it's easier or harder?
Andrea 3:13
Maybe not harder? I would say finally more as expected of the profession, which is a great, so
Chris Rainey 3:18
you've been hotter in terms of what the expectations are? Yes, your requirement is completely this. If we look at the skills that were if we had a top 10 skills you needed when you started now what probably be completely different, right? There'll be like, two or three things that will be on there. Yeah, you wouldn't have analytics on there. For example, you wouldn't say a job and wouldn't be there
Andrea 3:38
would not have been on there. You're exactly right. Although I was very lucky in that early on in my career, I first of all, have in the NBA thought was very, very helpful. I would not recommend, this is going to maybe sound blasphemous or maybe heresy in some ways. But I would not recommend that a person pursuing education in HR to anything other than a business degree, especially an MBA everyone
Chris Rainey 4:01
would agree with that now, if anything, I saw my wife sister was doing HR, like a degree like a master's thing. Yeah. And like 90% of what they were teaching, and it was just so out of date, like, oh, not even relevant, if that makes sense. Like, I was looking at the course material, and I was like, this is not going to prepare you. Exactly. And I was like, they're still teaching this to this day, and they're still, you know, charging a lot of money. Actually, it was been the I would just say it's been been your personal biggest personal challenge in terms of how you've had to evolve as the professions evolved.
Andrea 4:34
I think that my biggest challenge has been working, you're gonna think that I'm an HR, curmudgeon, but I think my biggest challenge has been working with HR practitioners who are stuck in the definition of HR. And so trying to convince folks who may be who may be stuck in the old paradigm of HR don't understand what the work is. And so to try to convince People that the work is hard. Show me something, show me a thing. Show me a widget, when really, HR professionals need to be way more involved in influencing the decisions that leaders have to make HR does not run the business the leaders do. And so the work is in influencing them to do the right make the right decisions based on the right information that you are bringing to them. It's not necessarily the widget, the widget has to get done, of course, but that's not the main work.
Chris Rainey 5:26
So just to say, because my last interview, I asked the same question. And a leader said that it was his biggest challenges was becoming good at influencing and selling. So it was like he realised in order to get stuff done, and basically move from being an order taker to music partner, if that makes sense. And he said, that was his biggest challenge. It's not
Andrea 5:46
easy. But if you understand the business and can influence and help other people make the right decisions, and know that that is the work and find comfort in that being the work. It can be very fulfilling. You just got to keep going back don't quit.
Chris Rainey 6:00
Yeah. And so your point then, after that is, do I have the right skills in my team? Yeah, to your point, because so I might develop developing those competencies and skills in my team as we evolve at the same time, as opposed to having those people that are stuck in the old way of working, right. So I see that a lot. Like, again, if you look at some of the skills that exist in the sort of modern HR teams, now, those are roles that even exist, that's like, like, right, like, I've got, I've sort of situated recently that hiring prompt engineers in their team, like, What do you mean, why don't you have a prompt engineer, and your team will, will will now we're working so much with AI, that we're building those self serve? tools that we need a prompt engineer in the team to understand what are the questions that our employees are asking our AI and and how do we programme the responses? I'm like, wow, like, yeah, Product Engineering HRT you'd never thought that would be the case? No, but that's cool. Yeah, right. Like all orders, synergy between marketing and HR, how closely that Scott together. So you now you know, as a CHR, oh, especially during COVID. Right? If you didn't have a good marketing strategy, or a good communications strategy, and that skills in your team, you would have really struggled. Yeah. during, during hybrid and lockdown. Well, that's absolutely right. When you have to communicate. So it's been amazing to see people evolve. And as you said, if if you're in HR, you got to be good at being uncomfortable. And, and constantly evolving, and upskilling are gonna survive long.
Andrea 7:27
You're not Yeah, I would say the heart. The second hardest thing, and I don't want to miss this this is that there are business leaders who don't necessarily see the value in HR until they until they don't have it. And so sort of helping the business understand how you adding value can be a little bit of a challenge when they expect you to just take an order, and you say I see that order. But that ain't a good order, sir. Or ma'am.
Chris Rainey 7:51
Yeah, it's almost like you do it so well, that they don't like record this working. They don't see it, like people only notice things when they break, if that makes sense. Yeah, as well. So they kind of take for granted how good they got it until it's gone, like to your point. And that's one of the things that was the inspiration behind this podcast is I was hearing all of these, this amazing work happen, and no one was celebrating it. And he has not really done a great job of sharing the wins and re demonstrating the value. And that's why I started the show. In the beginning, I was like, I want to highlight some of the incredible work that's been done in these companies and sharing those best practices. And hopefully that can then you know, the ripple effect throughout the world in the community. And that was one of the main things I would hear about it. But I was like, no one's talking about this. Like, this is an amazing work that's been done.
Andrea 8:36
So thank you for that. By the way, your podcasts are great. No, no, I
Chris Rainey 8:39
have read No, it's fine. I, in the beginning, it was quite hard to get people to come on and actually talk about it. That was the hard part. You know, seven years ago, it wasn't as easy now. But I think most leaders and companies actually now pushing their HR leaders to become front facing, especially when you think about your employee brand, right? You need to you know, people need to understand who am I who am I going to work for with,
Andrea 9:01
we will know we've made it when HR CHR OHS begin to be highly sought after for board of director positions. They all they all are they see.
Chris Rainey 9:13
I've had I literally in the last couple of weeks, I've had multiple calls about about Weave Stitch rows who've just joined boards. Great. And when they all meant it normally did a phone call I get is Chris, I'm thinking about leaving? Do you Do you know of any board positions? That's sort of the next step if that makes sense. That's if you look at like, you know, IBM's former CFO, she's now on many different boards and different companies. But you're right, I'm starting to see that and what and don't and those companies and boards are understanding they need that at the table. That's right. Right. Exactly. And they're not only about their investors are demanding that they have someone like that at a table because they're understanding the unintended consequences of not having that person there with that insight and perspective. So it's been honestly it has been incredible to see Even in my short time that I've been in the profession to see it evolve, it's actually been incredible how things evolve. So obviously, we've kind of many companies now adopting remote hiring work models, how has that kind of worked in a in a manufacturing environment? Because one of the challenges is that, obviously, you have frontline workers that are required to be in in manufacturing sites.
Andrea 10:24
You know, that's, that's really been an interesting thing to watch. I still feel like we're a bit in the early days, but certainly from an HR standpoint, the message that I got early and often was, my HR team needs to be here. A part of that was is because the employees are here. And if we are sort of customer facing, which employee we are to, to employees, then we should be here. There were debates on my own team about that, because we also support a headquarters office, they are not in the office, they are working remotely. And so there was this discussion, well, we can be remote to if the rest of our HR team is remote, can't we? And I think the answer to that is yes. When you earn it, only when you earn that good. That's a really good reply. So right now 2023, so what two full years after the pandemic, we are still in the office every day, and we need to I will tell you, we need to be here can only evolve, we can, but we have to evolve with the business. It's been very difficult, though, Chris, because I will tell you that trying to hire people, for the jobs on on my team have been difficult. It's been difficult both internally, because most of the rest of the organisation can work remotely. And when I say remotely, they can work in other states. And so to try to recruit even internal HR folks to come to the manufacturing facility has been challenging. And the same is true externally. Because there are so many hybrid remote remote jobs available more
Chris Rainey 11:53
tunity. Now, right, that's the thing, right? So
Andrea 11:55
for no opportunity.
Chris Rainey 11:56
I can definitely say on my own team there was there was some resentment. How did you overcome that? I was
Andrea 12:02
lucky in some regard. And other regards, it was very challenging. So I'm lucky in that I've got a good group of people who like being in the office. And so that was that was really nice, it was more challenging to try to recruit to fill open positions when people didn't want to competitions, right. So yeah, there have been a couple of times where there have been folks who have been sort of voluntold to do a little experience over in the manufacturing world. And those conversations were really, really, they were really, really difficult. But what's interesting, though, is is that in the manufacturing facility, there are roles that are not required to be on site, I have spoken with other HR colleagues and other companies, the plant manager would say everybody has to be here, if anybody has to be here, then we all have to be here. And that's that's not where we evolved to what's been very, very interesting. And it's still early days, and we're figuring this out. But our plant manager will say, Listen, if you can do your work without having to interact with someone, then you you can, you can maybe work from home. But if you are calling somebody and telling them to go check on something for you at the facility, then you need to be
Chris Rainey 13:07
like disrespectful in a way like okay, you're when I go go and do that. So I'm gonna go down, what was it? It's not gonna? Yeah, and I can imagine that happened. Quite a lot of people tried to get away with it. Like, I know that this person is there. So then I can just cut out Yeah, that's not fair. Yeah. So
Andrea 13:24
we are finding a nice, happy, happy medium, there are some people who don't have to come into the office every day and they make it work. And that is fine, because they're getting the job done. And there are others who really do need to be here. But in the middle, there's always a question that you have to ask Should I be here or
Chris Rainey 13:38
not? Well, this this is this is one of the big challenges, right? There's no longer this one size fits all and all of the systems and processes, everything was designed around that old way of working right. So now you have to kind of almost like blow it up and start again, and figure out like how do I different How do I service these different populations exist? Yeah. Where you're, where you're reaching and communicating with someone at home versus someone going in on the facility is completely different.
Andrea 14:04
I'll tell you what has been very, very interesting is that we are beginning to talk about how do we provide flexibility, not necessarily remote work, you can't take a piece of equipment home and put it in your backyard, you can do that. But how do we create a sense of flexibility for our production associates? That makes sense to them? Because they are beginning to scream that they need a little bit more personal time. And so how do you do that? And it's been very, very interesting. I'll tell you some of the things that we are thinking about are things like different shift schedules, but but also how do you give people more control over their own schedules, and that is much easier to say than it is to do, but we're really taking a look at it. And that requires some technology of course. Yeah. require some change, man It's meant. So it's been a big
Chris Rainey 15:01
culture shift. That's not a
Andrea 15:05
huge culture shift at all levels.
Chris Rainey 15:07
That's a good point, right? Because the leaders themselves have that, you know, that typically talent, importers, not exporters, and they want to keep everyone that they can see them at the same time in the same place on the same shift schedule. So there's a lot of there's a big culture shift. What are some other ways you mentioned one way? Is there some other ways you wanted to do to get them flexibility?
Andrea 15:29
Well, trying to figure out how to manage giving folks a little bit more time to themselves? And so how do you do that when you becoming more lean? But we're still trying to figure that out? It's like, how do we give you more time off when we need to hear it is really thinking differently about how we, how we work and how we give our production associates more ownership for their own work, and then allowing them to figure that that out? We're in a unionised environment, which makes it even more complicated. But
Chris Rainey 15:54
what about the communication piece? How are you now communicating with frontline workers? And ya know, for example, they haven't got a computer in front of them, right? So if they want to go and figure out, you know, what benefits do I have? What holiday? Do I have all of those things, right? How are you not, they're not going to pick up an email. So something
Andrea 16:10
that we implemented recently, is his app. And we allow our associates to get information right from their phone via an app, which is still complicated, because there's some times during the production hours where you can't have your phone on the floor. But the great news, which is very different is is that traditional communication vehicles were televisions around certain parts of the planet, and you had to stand in front of the television to catch the messages when you could. So things crazy.
Chris Rainey 16:43
Although that was an evolution from the poster.
Andrea 16:47
It absolutely was. But now we are teaching our associates how to elaborate and everybody has a phone. And now you can get information at home. What you know. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's helping a lot. It's still changing some mindsets, because we do have a few folks that only have a flip phone and will tell you they don't have the internet. No
Chris Rainey 17:08
way. Yes, we do only find those people in manufacturing. I can see I can see them right now. I already everyone listening can see them as well. Yeah, that's a stereotype.
Andrea 17:20
Yeah, so everything they can now they can get information about the about the business information specifically about their area. They can they can do things, what we might call HR, operations, administrative things like change their address, change their direct deposit information
Chris Rainey 17:38
about things around well being, did you got anything around that that you're working on anything
Andrea 17:42
related to benefits you can get? I'll get from your phone, I'll tell you this is this is one thing that might be jumping the gun a little bit on some of the questions you have for me, but post COVID One of the things that we've really seen an increase on is mental health part of it, I maintain it, because we have done a lot of good work to remove the stigma associated with mental health. But we have a lot of resources, including a counsellor on site two days a week, and he he's utilised.
Chris Rainey 18:09
But I'm not surprised as well. Have you done any work around communications to help sort of remove that stigma? I think especially in that environment, as well as very sort of, I don't know, sort of stereotype again, but is that type of very male dominated? You know, we're, you know, we're man's men, we don't talk about well being have you done a little walk around that we
Andrea 18:32
have. And so we've always given our frontline leaders the tool to say hey, if you got an employee that might be struggling here are the resources and they know how to how to get those and we've they've always known how to get those but what we've done in addition to that is we have put up some communication marketing materials that talk about it's okay to not be okay kind of thing. We talk about webinars that we offer. And one of the things that I saw this year, which was really let me know, that things are working is is when you have when you have employees advocating for other employees and asking for resources, they're coming to us and saying hey, I've got I've got a colleague who need some help, can you help me help them? And so that is happening yeah,
Chris Rainey 19:14
well some of the other things that are top of mind for you right now for from a manufacturing
Andrea 19:18
environment and I think this will resonate with some folks is is that for so long manufacturing has been so focused on producing whatever it is we produce and now what I am hearing is a lot more discussion among my colleagues around and this is gonna, this is gonna sound a bit cheesy and maybe even a bit dated, but it's it's less command and control and more servant leadership. This is a little old for many people, but for manufacturing, it is your
Chris Rainey 19:45
your right. So that's almost seems like a crazy concept in a manufacturing environment as well. But you know, wanting to feel more empowered, right? Yes. As opposed to very command and control which is that manufacturing environment very like punch in punch out. This is what you Do This is what time see you later.
Andrea 20:01
That's right. That's right.
Chris Rainey 20:02
That's very binary. That's
Andrea 20:03
right. That's exactly right. And you know, there was some value in that because people worked hard and played hard. And that created a sense of family and mission. But as the society has changed, we have new employees coming in saying, I am looking for this and that, and I expect you to treat me in a particular way. And that was new for folks who have been sort of brought up through the manufacturing ranks. And I can remember when I got here five years ago, that I had this, I had this this reputation of bringing kinder gentler BS to the culture. But now, now, what you what you see is, is that this is this is it's necessary to treat people like they are whole beings, because you get twice as much from the workforce when you do that,
Chris Rainey 20:53
how crazy is that? We're only having that conversation now, though, only now because it's being demanded the new generation coming through are demanding that right, they want to understand they want to be able to understand how they can live their purpose, their values, to to, to to roll and be treated like a human being, what a crazy request to ask for. Again, I'm going back to my dad, like if I asked him, you know, what is the mission purpose and values of Tate and Lyle, the company works for? I guarantee you'd have no idea what that is. And does he feel like he's, you know, he's How does it? How does his role what he does impact? The beyond the day to day, if that makes sense?
Andrea 21:29
Well, I you know, I would describe it a little differently here. I mean, I think here, everyone sort of understood the mission, which was making the product and so they were happy to do that. There was a sense of pride in doing that, actually. But as the industry has had to deal with new challenges as most industries have, and as the workforce has changed in terms of their options, then it just requires a different kind of creating a different kind of condition where people can thrive. And so when you've got leaders who were very successful, and everybody felt good back then, but it's the same leaders who are applying the same formula, it was just a little bit of a pivot away from what they knew to be right, that worked in their defence, it absolutely worked, but it wasn't working quite as well, I will tell you that I feel really, really good that I work for a group of people where we can almost we can just say this, duke it out sort of behind the scenes, hash it out, leave that discussion and do something a little different. It's take it takes time to do that. But that's the work curious. That's the work that I was talking about before. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 22:32
So what are some of the practical things that you're doing to kind of move to more of a servant leadership? Yeah.
Andrea 22:37
To try to give a simple example, you would, we would have frontline leaders before they would make a decision on their own, they would check in with their boss and their boss would check in with their boss, and they'll be doing this right. And so you got people standing around wondering what's going on? And that do it right, did I do it right. And now what we are seeing is that these higher leaders understand that their job is to allow these lower level leaders to make decisions on their own, to be included in decisions before they are made. So we're making those small tweaks and the gratitude and the growth in the frontline leaders as has been exponential. So that's sort of a basic one. I think one more, one a little bit more complicated is, particularly in a unionised environment, there's a tendency to look for, where's the rule? Where's the rule? Where's the process? Where's the rule? Yeah. And when people are involved, you well, you can take a step back. And so you have to flex a muscle that says, Before you inspect the rule, let's inspect what the right thing to do here is, what is the right thing to do here, do that first. And so changing the order of how you think about things is a small tweak. But the outcome is so much better for everybody. And so I always say that consistency is consistently doing the right thing, not necessarily consistently doing the same thing. And in order to do that, well, you've got to do the work, you've got to understand what are all the other elements? What are all the circumstances in this situation, that drive toward a decision and learning how to do that you can get faster at it, the more you do it,
Chris Rainey 24:12
but like you said earlier, these all sound like simple things, but there is not in terms of how you didn't embed it in the culture and they become part of it. And then whenever you're thinking about new policy, no any any any systems process you put in place, you've got to look at it through that people centric lens, like you said right now, just because that's the way we do it doesn't mean we just keep doing it that way. And I love your point about you know, the traditional hierarchy of decision making that doesn't make a massive difference to someone on the front line to feel like you know what, Chris? My voice Chris's voice is hurt. Absolutely. It matters. Yes, I may be doing this task. But in the bigger picture. I know My voice matters and it's being demonstrating and reflected in the actions and the decisions that are being made. That's huge for morale for me. Census sense of purpose and got it goes back to your point of them feeling part of it right? as well. So there's some, again, big culture shift as well, that needs to take place but and that's probably you're gonna have to look at that all day from the very beginning of the hiring process, and in and look for each of those different steps through that lens as well, to make sure human centric people centric as they go through the employee experience. So it's a great, it's amazing, I must be really excited for you like, it's a great opportunity to really take a fresh look at each of those those moments that matter, let's say, yep,
Andrea 25:35
you know, the reason that matters, even one Alchemist This is because as we think about the challenges, again, we everyone in industry, right now has challenges. And that's just a part of it. But more is going to be expected of all of us as a team. And so the more we can respect one another and value one another, and what we bring to work, the more we are able to conquer challenges together in a much more effective way. And there's going to be I said all that to say there's going to be even more challenges. And so if we can't get the basics right, then we're not gonna get the stuff, right, either. One
Chris Rainey 26:03
of the things that I've seen, really random question, but one of the things I've seen for frontline workers or blue collar workers is sometimes the recognition piece gets overlooked, because they're not front and centre, you're not seeing them face to face, perhaps every single day. And I spoke to different, you know, workers that have been in a role for 10 years and their 10 year anniversary. You know, they get an automated email saying, Great job. They're not maximising those moments that matter. That makes sense. How do you look at downtown's overwatering recognition, and making people feel like they're valued in that sense,
Andrea 26:37
I have to say that here, I'm lucky that that has not really been an issue, we have all kinds of recognition that happens sort of intrinsically and in small ways, and in big ways. And so one of the things that we do, it's probably been about two years now that we released to our employees, and they are really using it is something that we call that they're the Snap Points. And so you can award some point to your own colleague for something that you thought they've done well, and you create a bank, and then after a while, you can buy some, you know, some things, points. And so we've rolled that out recently, but before that, we always sort of honoured in a really big way service, not only does it get posted and blasted all over the planet, but before COVID, we used to have record Service Recognition, awards and things like that. So we've we've always done a good job with that here. And I think that we're continuing to do that through technology.
Chris Rainey 27:31
Right, and, and help. That's right. Yeah. That's
Andrea 27:35
right, and put it directly into the hands of every employee, as opposed to waiting in the past. Your leader has to do it. That's
Chris Rainey 27:42
why I mean is Oh, again, it goes again, it all feeds into what you're trying to achieve. Yeah. And people feel like they're part of something bigger. That's exactly right. letting letting the people to work with them around them every day record and also, that I also want to be recognised by those people closest to me, right? That's right. It's
great getting a message from you know, the head office somewhere else for my 10 years. But for people that I live and breathe and work with every day, that's what we that's what kind of means the most, is that also an app that they can do on their phone. That's great. No, of course. It is. Yeah. Again, just make it easy. Right? Removes the friction. Yes, on the phone, I can go in I can discover allocate points. And, and they can, I'm assuming just at the end of the year, use the points and buy something like it just like connects, I can have like an Amazon type thing where they can just buy it right. I was literally Amazon, they can actually
Andrea 28:33
like that. So yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm
Chris Rainey 28:36
glad you're doing that. I know, it sounds like a really obvious thing. But I can tell you the amount of companies I speak to very large companies like your own, that still don't have something like that, or they do but it's like in an intranet somewhere, even though there's
Andrea 28:48
there's there's one thing that I do want to say about the culture change that we've had to affect with all this, all this good stuff. But I will tell you, I made an I made an error early on, and someone may be able to benefit from this. But when I got here, I realised that the culture needed to change a little bit. And I thought that I needed to empower the frontline leaders. And so I started with how do I how do I empower these leaders to to feel like they have more decision rights, that they can, that they have more accountability, that they have more skills, that they have more tools to be more effective in their role. And while I was right, that they affect the majority of the employees in the business, I was right about that. What I missed was that I needed to start with their leaders and their leaders, leaders, and we needed to be on the same page about the change that needed to occur. And so I was I was pushing something uphill, and I didn't begin to see success until I started having the same conversations, honest conversations with the highest leaders in the organisation about what I saw that needed to change. And that was not easy, because because these leaders didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing. In which was they were seeing the results of the production. And they were running the numbers from production was right. Yes, it's good. Yeah, the number the numbers are good, and we're good, what are you talking about? But they didn't understand what I was seeing from employees and Frontline leaders. And I realised that I had to do more work at the top. So I just wanted to say that for for someone who might benefit who's listening, yeah, that you really do have to you have to have a really good
Chris Rainey 30:24
point, right? Yeah. You don't see the burnout and the numbers? Yeah, you know, you might Yeah. And also, like, to your point, you could empower those leaders, right. And they might see it as artists or small worker God, you know, but I'm already busy. My boss has to my boss is telling me all these things. That's right. Well tell him I can make decisions this way. But they're telling me this. That's exactly right. So exactly. I'm stuck in the middle. That's exactly right. You're competing narratives. So I can see your intentions, obviously, were very positive, to be able to do that. But it results in you haven't made a change at the top. So now, you know, it makes sense. And I'm thinking I think that's a great a great, thank you for sharing that. Because I'm sure people don't make a similar assumption. But again, you learn by doing right, you know, yeah, that's right. The way you never, that's one of the things. Sometimes people are paralysed by the fear of failure that didn't make any changes whatsoever. But you learn that that you learned a lesson you pivoted and you made changes, and that's what matters going. There's no such thing. Remember, back in the day, when we had these like five, three to five year plans? It seems crazy, right? Like in this day and age. In this volatile world, do you think we're gonna your three to five year plans gonna change next week? That's exactly right. You have to build lean principles into everything that you do and be agile, you know, about Lean and Agile and in manufacturing? Yes.
That's right. It's embedded in every employee. Right? Before I let you go, piece of advice, you know, what advice as we move into 2024, kind of what advice would you give to those leaders that will be sitting in your seat one day, right, the HR leaders of tomorrow,
Andrea 32:03
there's actually two things one is, is that as an HR practitioner, the one thing that you need to be thinking about to be successful in your job is knowing the business, I have to tell you, I cringe when I hear HR people say that they went into HR because they like people, you better you better love the business, because the only way that you can be effective with the human capital strategies and the leaders in an organisation is by how much effort you put in absolutely knowing the business. So that's the first thing that I'd say, as a leader. Some advice that I got early in my career from a leader that has carried me to this day is that as a leader, I can learn from anybody. And you have to be willing, and you have to be willing to learn from anybody. Because if you think you know, at all, you're already not effective. No,
Chris Rainey 32:51
you're 100%. Right. And to your point about the business, if you really care about people, that's your best way to do it. Yes. Yes. So great, but in the best way you can influence and help those people. Business. So it works that way. And yeah, and you have to be humble, right? Like, do and have humility to learn from everyone. I love that advice as well. Yeah, it's not always the, you know, the best is the best idea wins. That's correct. That's well, no matter where, yeah, no matter what, even when I don't agree of it. That's right. I agree. I had the same conversation today and my co founder, I didn't agree with his decision. I was like, you own it. I trust you. This is where he goes into it. Otherwise, why do I was Why did you hire them? That's that's exactly why the infinite diversity of four and perspective and insights as well. So yeah, I listen. Honestly, I'm glad we made this happen for me to meet you. Holidays and all Thank you. Yeah. And I appreciate you. I
love your energy. I love your passion. Clearly. You're in the right place. You chose the right career. It's a vignette. And yeah, I wish you and your family happy holidays and I look forward to chatting in the new year. Same
Andrea 34:00
to you. Thank you so much.
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Victoria Klug, HR Director Eastern Europe at Beiersdorf.