What It Means to Be a Respectful Rebel at Work
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we sit down with Juan Pablo Velasquez, CHRO at Fyffes and author of the book Respectful Rebels, to explore the power of respectful rebellion in leadership, navigating polarities in organizational culture, and his insights from leading HR across global markets.
Juan Pablo shares personal stories illustrating the value of curiosity, taking risks, and effectively challenging the status quo. The conversation explores how combining respect with rebelliousness can drive positive organizational change and impactful leadership.
🎓 In this episode, Juan Pablo discusses:
Navigating complex organizational polarities
Real-life examples of impactful, respectful rebellion
The concept and practice of respectful rebellion in leadership
Practical advice for challenging outdated organizational practices
The critical role of curiosity and risk-taking in career advancement
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Juan Pablo Velasquez 0:00
Well, Pablo, welcome to the show. How are you? My friend. Hello, Chris. Super happy to be here with you. Thanks a lot for the invitation. Listen,
Chris Rainey 0:06
I know we said it off air, but you've got the coolest name ever. I feel like, I feel like I could never have that name, because otherwise I can't be as cool as you. You know, and you work for one of the coolest companies that I felt like
Juan Pablo Velasquez 0:19
that I will not fight very well known in the in the UK, in Ireland, I was given a fact the other day that fives in Ireland has the same level of knowledge, or very similar, to Coca Cola. So it's, everyone
Chris Rainey 0:32
knows the brand. I mean, like, it's interesting, because children, probably, especially my daughter, grows up, you know, she probably knows the logo and the name, right? Like even from when you're a kid, how does that feel when you speak to people like I
Juan Pablo Velasquez 0:47
was in a plane the other day, and a lady from the UK, she asked me, and because from where I come from, fives is not such a well known brand. I said, No, I work for this company called fives. And she said, you are taking me to my childhood, five bananas. I ate them when I was a kid. I gave it to my kids, and now that I am old, I only eat five bananas. So yeah, that feels cool. How?
Chris Rainey 1:13
Just remind the audience, how old is the company? So the
Juan Pablo Velasquez 1:18
company is around 130 years old, and it's actually originally from the UK. Then it was based in Ireland, and we have a very strong connection with Ireland as well. So very much into your side of the world coming.
Chris Rainey 1:32
I had no idea of that. So this is originally from the UK. The founder originally
Juan Pablo Velasquez 1:36
from so, so, so our founder, who was Edward fives, and I hope I don't get any of the facts wrong. She was from the UK.
Chris Rainey 1:45
Wow, that's the I had no idea, like I just as well. And how long have you been with a company now? So
Juan Pablo Velasquez 1:51
I've been with the company almost two years. I started from Columbia, and then I moved to Switzerland, and it's been a year and a half since I've been based in very swap, very near Geneva. Nice.
Chris Rainey 2:03
Why the location move so?
Juan Pablo Velasquez 2:07
Our head office and management office, our CEO and C level, we are all located here in
Chris Rainey 2:13
Switzerland. What a good choice. Where should we go? You can
Juan Pablo Velasquez 2:19
imagine how different it's coming from Bogota to Switzerland, as different as it gets in so many aspects.
Chris Rainey 2:27
I can imagine the the weather must have been a shock. Yeah,
Juan Pablo Velasquez 2:32
it is. It is a first shock. But because I worked before in 3am and I had to travel a lot to Minnesota. Oh, okay,
Chris Rainey 2:42
yeah, I can imagine then when,
Juan Pablo Velasquez 2:43
when the winter was coming first. I already had all the outfits, because, again, I traveled very frequently to Minnesota, and then, because I had been exposed to minus 15, minus 20. You know what? 01, that's fairly manageable, right? You're
Chris Rainey 2:57
ready. You came prepared. Exactly. Tell everyone a little bit about your background. Did you choose? HR? Did HR? Did it choose you along the way?
Juan Pablo Velasquez 3:04
So HR definitely chose me along the way. And I fell here by accident. One day, I was in university, and I found a friend. It was a Friday, it was sunny. I told my friend, Hey, should we grab a beer? And he said, No, I'm going to this talk from the people from Coca Cola. And I'm like, What are you talking about? Yeah, there is this very cool event that this the university is sponsoring. And I really didn't want to go. I wanted to go and have a beer, period, but he convinced me, and I went. And I said, Okay, his dream was working Coca Cola. I was there. I didn't have anyone to be with before my next class started. So I heard the company talk, and then they asked for some data, like, hey, put your name, contact information, etc. But then I had to leave for my class, and I said, my friend, can you please give this for me? But you know, I was not expecting anything. Long story short, he never got called. It was his dream, not mine. At got called. I got a job, and I worked there for 10 years when I arrived to Coca Cola, and I do all the psychometrics and the talent acquisition interviews and everything, they tell me, Juan Pablo, you did fantastic. We're super happy with you. The next interview is with Alberto Ramirez. He would be your boss. He's the head of labor relations in human resources. And I was like, labor what? There must be a mistake. So I have to start saying that I was going to law school, and I said I'm coming here for an internship on law right? I think there's a mistake. No, no, we want you in human resources. And I fall there and again, it's been almost 20 years, actually, more than 20 years now from that day. So certainly makes it. The funny story is that my friend then, when I was there because he still wanted to go to Coca Cola, he said, Now that you are there, can you please take my CV? I did so. He went for an interview for an HR position. He had to fill in a document where he said, Where was he applying to? And instead of saying human resources, he put human rights. Of course, he didn't get the job. Fast forward 20 years. He's a human rights advocate. He's the UNESCO director No way, Mexico. So he's got a career in the in the United Nations. It's
Chris Rainey 5:27
coincidences. Yeah, he never knew when he wrote it down. How crazy is that that one like you could look at it as a mistake at the time, but then now he maybe found his true calling by accident along the way. That's so imagine the amount of people that just accidentally wrote the wrong thing and probably have no idea, right? Like no one ever told them that that was the case.
Juan Pablo Velasquez 5:52
I'm not a planner, so actually, I love I know what I like, but I love life to take me through different paths, right? I never imagined I would be here in Switzerland talking to you if you asked me as soon as three years ago, right? Yeah.
Chris Rainey 6:07
And the next chapter, you just wrote a book, right? Yeah,
Juan Pablo Velasquez 6:12
exactly. So I wrote a book a couple of years ago. It went out the Spanish edition. It was published by editorial planeta, which has a Spaniard company. It's the largest publisher in Spanish. And the new cool thing is, I've done the translation to English, and that's what's coming out right now. The book is called respectful rebels. So it's all around. How can you lead with all the rebelliousness, challenging the status quo, and simultaneously do it in a respectful manner, building bridges, building human relations. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 6:46
when I know you spoke to my co founder, Shane, about this before we spoke, and when he when he told me about the book, I was really excited to talk to you because, like, one of my purpose or my purpose statement, is to be the unbreakable artist that dances you to life. And part of what that means, there's many meanings to why it's worded that way, romantic, yeah, an unbreakable artist was always around like any even as a child, my friends and family would always be like, Chris, you're always trying to challenge the status quo and, like, challenge the norms, because I hate the whole Oh, we do it this way, just because that's the way we've always done it. That's unacceptable for me in everything, whether it's sports, whether it's business, whether you know, whatever it may be. So why this book first and foremost? What was the inspiration behind it? Then we'll jump into some examples. Yeah, perfect.
Juan Pablo Velasquez 7:39
So first I started writing. Ai, since I was young, I wrote in the school newspaper, in the university newspaper, my grandfather, he wrote three books. So I like writing, right? And I had this idea. Then I started writing a lot around leadership, and I started in LinkedIn, and I publish very frequently, and I started creating a notion around leadership, and at some point I said, I really want to write a book to express these ideas, but I never knew what the Umbrella was. And one day, I published a post on LinkedIn that basically said the best leaders are rebel specful. That is rebellious. And I like that. Yes, I've already Googled it, and I have just, have you
Chris Rainey 8:30
trademarked that? Yeah, not, not yet
Juan Pablo Velasquez 8:34
five patent office. But then it said a rebel specful is a rebel with cause. It is someone capable of challenging the statue co defying prevailing culture and practices and even questioning the ideas put forth by senior management, they blend rebelliousness, passion and respect so well that they don't only manage to survive, but also drive organizational change. And these are the individuals who truly make a difference. And that post went mega viral, Chris and one of the comments in the Post said, Wow, this is an amazing concept. It should be the subject of a book and and then I said, You know what? This is exactly everything that I've been saying about leadership, sometimes I incline more on the respect side, sometimes I incline more on the rebellious side. But the real challenge and game changer is how to mix both concepts and and that's what ended up bringing this, the idea of the of the rebels, you
Chris Rainey 9:29
know, you should do, like, as a really cool marketing thing is, when you release the English version, is to take a screenshot of that person's comment and then tag them in LinkedIn and but, like, here's the book
Juan Pablo Velasquez 9:41
that's gonna be amazing. Yeah, you
Chris Rainey 9:44
gotta do that. Or if you can find, is it? Is it a LinkedIn comment? It is find the LinkedIn comment screenshot that add that as the picture, and then put a link to the idea, and then people, like, no one's done that. Like,
Juan Pablo Velasquez 9:57
I do that in the introduction of the book. So I put all the introduction at the end. I tell the same story, and I say the post went viral with one comment standing out patent the concept, in fact, it should be the subject of a book. And I put and so it was right, yeah. But putting the image in LinkedIn, that's gonna and if
Chris Rainey 10:16
that person still there, tag them like, I will that be cool? I will be really cool. So good marketing ideas, Chris, my brain, that's how my brains always thinking. Could you share an example of a time when rebellion against the status quo has paid off for you, or some of the people that you research, that you interviewed and researched for the book. Yeah, absolutely,
Juan Pablo Velasquez 10:41
absolutely. So, so, so there's many, and I think you can find both mega big, dramatic examples, as well as just when you rebel for the for the small things, one that I can share specifically about my my career. So when I started in three so after Coca Cola, I went work for a Colombian company called Alpina. It's a Davis company. And then I went to 3am and I started as as HR vice president for the operation in Colombia, which for the big picture of 3am is a very small operation, typically in Latin America, people that know well organizations there, they know that the big players are Brazil and Mexico, right? So, so if you, if you do grow in your career in Latin America, typically, where what you aim is one of these two countries. At some moment, the position for head of HR for Latin America was open. And again, the natural step would have been from one of my colleagues in these two large operations to take the role. And I sent an email to the manager of that position that said, to the big decision maker that said, letter to Santa. And it was literally my letter to Santa Claus saying, Hey, I know this position is open. I've been a good boy, and I would really want to get this and prepared. And it's an opportunity. I've been looking for AI it. So that was in the morning. Then no answer, no answer. And then I was like, oh my god, I just went too far. Was that not professional enough? Was that too aiming too high? And then in the afternoon, I received an email saying, like, Haha, this is the coolest email ever. I will make sure that Santa, I will be a good elf and make sure that Santa received a message. 20 days later, I was interviewing for the job, and I ended up getting it, which was a huge jump in in my career. From there, I took a global role in 3m and and then here in five we're having the conversation. But I put this example because I it was rebelling against the statue. It was rebelling against the typical path that someone can have, and it was rebelling against what people might think and doing things in a in a different way, right? AI see it as a rebellion against the circumstances, or the normal circumstances, if you allow me to put it that way, that said, I, I've been very rebellious. Let me. Let me just show you something very fast here again, it's the it's the big little and the big. But for those that are watching showing the wall in my office, which is full of cartoons, I love doing. Cartoon is
Chris Rainey 13:38
that you? Yeah, so,
Juan Pablo Velasquez 13:41
like almost 200 post its with a different cartoons and it's, it's the authenticity, right, which I think has marked the difference, if I think something, I will say it again, rebel in a rebel, respectful manner, right? So, as as rebellious as possible, and simultaneously, in a constructive in a constructive way.
Chris Rainey 14:06
How do you I'll I'll share an example of myself, of my of my career, and then what I love your advice on for people and for everyone listening is how you do it in a respectful way, because that's the part that I've struggled with in the past. So when I was first 10 years of my career, I was in sales, like a high pressure sales environment, and we had a, you know, a way of selling, a way of pitching. We had a sales process, etc. And it was like 20 years out of date, right? Like, it is, like, so old school, like, and, but your KPIs were directly linked to that way of selling. Ai, you know, 200 calls a day, three hours on the phone, etc, etc. Whereas, a first example, I started social selling, so on LinkedIn. So while seven. Miles. Was doing 100 calls. I was sending CHROs messages on LinkedIn and connecting directly and and so any I was only spending time on the phone with qualified buyers, right? But because I didn't hit these numbers, even though I was doing four times the sales of the average sales person, I was kind of penalized by my boss saying, Well, you're not hitting following the process, yeah, right. And you're not hitting the KPIs. I was like, Yeah, but what's the main KPI sales? So how could you complain that I haven't done as many calls as many hours? I don't need to do that many hours and that many calls, because I'm only speaking to qualified leads, right? And I remember getting in a lot of trouble in the business for that. And I was like, wait a minute, I've just, like, quadrupled my sales, and now I'm in a meeting disciplinary me because I haven't hit my numbers. That's kind of one example things how they are supposed to be done. Yeah, because I wasn't following the process. And I was like, but the process is, like, what are we measuring? Are we measuring numbers or imagine the output like, what like isn't the most important thing to sell. And even after that, for many years, like, I was still like, pressured. You have you're not doing 200 calls. You're not doing two hours as well. So how do you like challenge the status quo with when you have leaders that are still like, you know, following outdated methodologies or processes.
Juan Pablo Velasquez 16:25
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, so, as they say, there is no one size fits all. Let me tell you how not to do it, right? You can be mega rebellious and come back and say, like, you guys are idiots. You are not seeing the value that I'm adding. Those KPIs are so dumb, right? You're not getting the point. How can you penalize me for the so you can go mega route with with all the good arguments, right? So I think this is a very clear example that you were doing the right thing. But here is where. So I would encourage you to have the rebellious equalizer, keep it at max, right? So I would never tell you, Hey, you're going to be less rebellious. Don't change the way you are doing, because you will risk your job or you are not compliant. So keep the rebellious equalizer as high. I think the trick is, how do you elevate your respect equalizer, right? I like this concept of respect and rebelliousness. It's not a dial that you turn from one to the other, but actually two equalizers. So how to raise your equalizer? So there might be many approaches here, right? And I don't know your boss. One is, have a constructive conversation. Explain what you're doing. Ask him, Hey, give me the opportunity for four weeks or for six weeks, to show you how this is working. Try to find middle ground to certain extent, right? If at the end, you have your rebelliousness, equalizer to the top, and with your respect, equalizer to the top, it's still not working, and your boss comes and says, You know what? I'm really sorry, but that's not the way we do things here. If with both equalizers to the top, you are not able to advance, show the way, help change how others are working, and even help challenge the culture and the norms so that the KPIs reflect better that breakthrough that we're having. And I know this is way easier said than done, but it's most likely not the place where you want to continue, right? Yeah, probably time to revel in the sense of moving to a different place, which I assume is what you do. So I did,
Chris Rainey 18:32
you'll enjoy this, AI. So it got to the point where I did have that conversation, and I was, you know, you're too young, Chris, you don't get it. You know, this is the way we do things. So I did try having that conversation, but and I just kept doing it in secret, because I wasn't gonna, you know, that was like affecting my earnings, because I get commission, right? And then what ended up happening is the rest of the sales floor started using my methodology and my pitch, and then it kind of became almost undeniable, right? And then this is extreme. I'm telling you the honest truth. I had a conversation with my boss's boss and it and it was like, Hey, I'm leaving the company because I can't keep working under this leader. The only way that I'm gonna stay is if you give me that person's job, and they, they did, and they got rid of my manager. So I felt like kind of bad, but not at the same time, because I, because I had multiple occasions approach this and also the number, the numbers are the numbers. So, like, it became undeniable, because the revenue is the revenue, right? So I ended up taking that job, and that's the first time I became a manager. Was it was not the greatest way of getting a job,
Juan Pablo Velasquez 19:54
and I love it, because I think the missing element here and what would have shown how. Much of our rebel respectful, are you or where you are? Weren't you? Is what if that hadn't worked off so you would come to the manager, to your next level manager, say, Hey, I'm leaving because this is not working, AI. And the only way I would say is, if there's an opportunity for me to take this role, you got it, which is fantastic. If the person was upset, then we're really sorry you're leaving. Okay, thanks. A lot. I learned a lot I did right? If you are like then you take out the machine gun, and everybody's an idiot here, and it becomes a mess. Then you're not being then you're not playing the rebel spec full card. But I talk a lot about ambition in the book, and actually one of the chapters is around taking away the bad reputation of ambition, right? So I talk a bit about a bit this ambition with purpose, right? So it's not ambitious like hitting everybody and killing everybody, but I believe if you, if you want to grow, and you want to grow fast, and you want to make a strong career, you gotta be ambitious. You gotta express what you want. You have to be very direct in in what you expect. You don't have to have other guess that for you. And if you don't get something worst case scenario use, you will sleep at ease knowing that you did everything that was in your hands to get something that you wanted, like you want your boss position, and you and you went for it, and you had given him the chance to show him to everything, and the guy was being an idiot. So I support what you did.
Chris Rainey 21:37
Yeah, how do you? How? How do you? I realized that the culture that I was in, in that company, in that organization, didn't accept the rebel culture, or the rebel it's to the point where I used to hide a lot of even after this experience. I'll give you another example, and I'd love to hear your approach of how you'd approach this is it was a we were still doing invoices, and we had a team of, you know, 20 people chasing invoices in the finance team, and it meant that the 300 sales executives would wait weeks and months to get our commission. So, and that was a big all of that my team that I led, they would complain, Chris, Chris, where's my commission? Like, you're my manager. Where's my commission, right? So I brought that to the management team, and got told, this is the way we do things this. And I was like, but this doesn't make sense. Like, surely the business cash flow. It's not healthy for the business. And they were like, Chris, you're, you know, you're, I was like, 19 years old at the time. I started there at 17, for context, and they're like, you don't know what, you don't get it. So what I did with the one of the IT managers is built a payment gateway without any permission from with the one that one of us folds, one of the first online payment gateways with World pay so that I could take credit card payments, didn't tell if no one else in the business. And then we implemented it, me and someone in the IT team, and that meant that that those 20 people lost their jobs in who are manually collecting invoices, and we could all get instantly get our commission, because it was all credit card, right? And the cash flow to business, and I presented that to the management team and off site meeting in Miami, of all places, and half the room were outraged and wanted to cut my head off, because I went above their heads all and then the CEO and founder was like, amazing. You've just saved me 300,000 in salaries and increased the cash flow. But I remember getting pulled into a meeting by my boss, and I thought I was going to get congrat congratulated, and it was if you ever do that ever again, and don't ask and go above me, this will be your last day in the company. So how do you continue to be a rebel in an environment that you don't have that psychological safety.
Juan Pablo Velasquez 24:07
I think you gotta take risks, right? I think you gotta the I think you have to AI, and I'm talking from privilege here, but try to have like these savings in the possibility that if you get fired, or something like Don't try this at home, right? So, so, so you got to check your own personal circumstances to see how much and how fast can you be that that level of rebellious being mindful of the potential outcomes typically in the work world, being getting fired right? Unless you go to rebellious and do something inappropriate and it becomes legal, which fully out of scope, and do not try it or do it. That said, Yeah, you gotta, you gotta have your risk appetite. What I've seen, Chris is when you do things and when you make your best effort to. To connect the respect with the rebelliousness. So in this, in this example, and just using the case that you said, if you would have somehow given visibility to your boss, not not visibility, not not asked for permission, right? Which is very different. Hey, I want you to know I'm going wrong. I'm doing this right? So which are the stakeholders that you have to keep connected? Sometimes it helps in certain circumstances, involving others, right? You need to have all the credit, but you got to read the context. Because sometimes you know, if you involve the others, and it's a culture like the ones we've been talking about, where you will get pushed down, then sometimes you gotta go a bit wrong and make the change a happen the way you did when, when I started in, when I started here at five, just to share an HR example around these so we had for our performance management module, we were asking so I started very much when the process was taking place to close the goals for the previous year. This was a couple of years ago, and I found out in our first in one of my first days, that we were asking people to fill both an Excel file with like, 20 columns, mega detail and a lot of things. And then, because we worked with Oracle, we were asking people to put the goals in Oracle. At that moment, we did not have the we did not have the full performance management module. So it was a complete repetition for people to the way I said to my boss is, this is why people hate HR, right? Because we are asking that. So what we did is we're going to finish this year with the Excel file. We're not going to ask people, and we're going to implement the right Oracle module on performance management. So we mega simplified the Excel file from 14 columns, we moved to six, so something much simpler, and then next year, meaning last year, we had the full performance module and a very different user experience. And people were grateful that we made that change. Right? So it depends on the point of your career. Of course, I'm the CHRO. I can make that call and have the support to make it, but it's in everything. Yeah, it's
Chris Rainey 27:26
interesting because, like, we talk about all these advanced things, like AI and all these other technology, but it's those small things that drive people crazy, the basics. Yes, the basics, like, don't forget before you look at any shiny new technology, or things like AI, like, is someone putting having to put something in an Excel and then put it in the software? Like, that's going to drive someone crazy, like, day to day, such a waste of time to be able to do. I kind of still see the things with the doctors in the UK. If you ever go see a doctor in the UK, they have a folder that they have to write all of the information in, and then they take the folder, and then at the end of the day, after right, they have to write it in the computer. And it's such a waste of time. But that's just because the way they do it. And I'm like, and I always ask every doctor, like, that's like, they're like, Chris, like, half, like, literally, I could see five or six more patients a day, if I didn't have to do this information twice, it's kind of is, is when I was
Juan Pablo Velasquez 28:25
in the process of being hired by 3m in Colombia. So I went to the offices in Bogota, and I had already submitted my CV, I had uploaded it in their platform, everything. And when I arrived to sign the contract, the HR business partner that was going to be part of my team. She was like, okay, Juan Pablo, now that you're here, I need you to fill in these and this and and then suddenly I had, like, 10 papers. And I'm like, I have already given the company all of this information. This is so dumb. So I told her, like, Hey, this is stupid now, but, but, you know, it's the process we have like that. So I did everything. I completed everything, and when I signed the console, the last part was to sign the contract in. The moment I put the signature in the contract, I told you, hey, you know what? As your new boss, I am now giving you the former. I did this laughing, right? Which is something that also helps. It helps. This is, in my experience, to do things in a kind and fun way, I said. And it was true. It was it was funny, but it was true. My first instruction as the head of HR here for the operation in Columbia is we get rid of this template, of this template, of this template, of this template, right? And she was super happy. She was like, Oh my god. So so so much simpler, right? Yeah.
Chris Rainey 29:39
And it is such a such an important first experience, like I in previous companies, I had a similar process. Right whenever you had a new start, like they shouldn't be spending the first few hours of their first day fitting in forms. What a waste of a time. What like that person's first day should be getting to be? Relationships, getting to know the organization, asking questions, being in the moment, not sitting there half the morning, filling in forms which you already have given them that information during the process. But even now, in this day and age, companies listening still have that process. You need to change that process. What advice would you give to HR leaders in in terms of building their own resilience, in their in their careers? Yeah,
Juan Pablo Velasquez 30:27
exactly. So. So AI, I have, AI, have a strong experience where I was hoping for a CHR role that I didn't get, that I was called to the CEO office and told that someone that actually I had hired and that I had trained was now going to be my new boss. So so I feel aI have the experience to have an opinion on this. But more than, more than resilience, a Chris, I'm not a I'm not a fan of the word, because resilience sounds like you didn't get something and and you are able to come back to the place where you were before, to emotional place where you were before. I think you got to be much more active, AI, than that, right? So coincidentally, yesterday, I put a post on on LinkedIn, and I was talking about five elements that I think you can use to advance your career in an in an ethical way, or without going away from your values and and my advice came in five ways. The first one, stick your nose where no one has invited you to do so. So be curious, right? Get get involved in in things, even when they are not asking you to do, or especially when you are not being asked to do. So go out and eat the world. I always remember I had this boss in Coca Cola. I moved to Mexico in 2007 and this was a guy that was very tough. And one time he asked me to do something. He said, like, Juan Pablo, I need you to do this, this and this. I don't know exactly what it was, but I remember perfectly that I told him, You know what? I think this is very hard. And this guy was so mad. He told me, Juan Pablo, when I ask you something, I expect you to go out and eat the world, take on the world, do everything that it's in your hands and possibilities to make things happen. If you do that and you cannot make it come here, if I have to do a phone call, if we have to change the goal, if we have to do things differently, fully, count on me. But I do not accept that. I ask you something that your first reaction is that it cannot be done or that it is too hard, so I got a lesson every time that I guest asked for something, even if I have no clue how to do it, you will, unless it's something that it goes against my values. But you will probably hear me say, like, count on it or consider it done. And I think that level of accountability and security has helped me a lot in in my career, then make yourself the only one responsible for your career basement. I think you gotta be a bit masochist, in the sense that when something happens, if you need the resilience to continue with the with the word, you can come back to be resilient just by saying, oh yeah, this was so unfair, but the world is unfair, and because they got someone else that was the favorite or whatever, I think you gotta be a masochist and rethink and replay things in your head. And what can you do to revel from your circumstances, to change the outcome and to and to learn from what happened, and what do you need to be different, right? And at the end, I know a bit cliche, but I still believe it, with my heart, is cultivate gratitude, right? I do believe in planting karmic seeds. And when you do good things, good things will happen to you. So more than resilience again, Chris, I think it's about taking taking action into your own hands and taking matters into your hands, if that's staying where you are, fantastic, if that's being resilient in the sense of coming back where you are. But don't be afraid of challenging and reveling, including reveling from your circumstances. And look for different paths if you are not in the right culture, if you are not with the right bosses. So yeah, again, not a one size fits all, but I think it's more a life attitude. Don't let if you hit a wall, AI just don't be comfortable and say, okay, okay, resilient, I've hit it, but I breath and I'm fine with that. I think resilience can sometimes give that image, and I feel strong that it shouldn't have you hit the wall, hit go for another path, right? Find another door, if necessary. I
Chris Rainey 34:55
love that. Like a lot of what you described, you really kind of taking back the power. Yeah. You know, like the fact that you didn't wait and you sent that email to get that job, you took action. And I think so many people, I was like that for many years. You sort of waiting for someone to give you permission, or waiting for someone to tap you on the shoulder for that next role. You kind of feel like, you know, helpless, not helpless, but you know, like you need to take the power back. I The amount of times I, I have friends and family that say, like, you know, not happy with my job, or I didn't get this job, I'm like, did you even put yourself forward for it, right? Did you, you know what, Chris
Juan Pablo Velasquez 35:32
my, my most my, what I could even label as my most rebellious act in my life. And this is maybe going to sound a bit juvenile, but so help me. Let me put a point, and then I'll share the experience. I think there's a speeches like Steve Jobs, famous speech in Stanford that you connect the dots and these right, so you can make a lot of things, like AI, things were meant to happen or, or, This is what life wanted. Or for people that are more religious, this is what God wanted, right? But I think those are all statements that take the power for you to make decisions and change the curse of your destiny, if, you allow me the pompous word here, when I was in university, I went to work for a summer in the US. So this was a work experience. You got a piece app, and you work for three months. And I was going with some friends, and the plan was to work in a in an amusement park. It sounds super fun. A few days before going, they said, No, you know what the amusement park is no longer taking people. You are going to Texas, to a city called Corpus Christi, to work as housekeepers in a hotel. And that's changed. Absolutely. I really imagine law, law students, and we were, as we said, it's part of the experience. We were five friends. We went there, and my job for a summer was literally cleaning bathrooms, making up the beds, et cetera, even though my wife doesn't believe that out of my making the bed skills that I have today. And then we got a second job, because the plan was to make as much money possible in a period of three months. And I got a second job in a restaurant, and I was a busboy. I just had to pick up the dishes when people left. It was very easy. I put them, like, in a metal tray and took them, and there was this dishwasher. He was a Mexican guy, and I always said, like, wow, because he was, he had a mount of plates all the time, all the time, all the time. I said, Wow, that's such a hard job. I feel bad for this guy. One day, the Mexican guy didn't show up, and the restaurant manager, I think maybe out of stereotype, this guy is Latino, so he's probably gonna be good at washing dishes. So she said, You gotta put the apron and wash. And I was like, no, please. No, no, no. And she went like, Oh, you have to do it. So I wore the apron. I started and and the and the mount just became the mount. Everest of dishes, right? It was a mess, like all the logistics of the recipe was, there was this beautiful waitress. Her name was Chrissy, and at the beginning was like on Pablo, we are not having enough dishes to serve the place or whatever. Three minutes later, he was like, and I felt so stressed. I think it's stupid, but it's the time that I've been the most stress in my life. So I went to the manager's office. There was a little office in the restaurant, and I told her, like, hey, I need you to please change me either to my other role or to something different. I do not have the competences for this role. And she said, No, you got to stay there. So I said, You know what? Then I quit. And she said, Are you saying that this will be your last night? And I was like, No. I took off the apron. I said, No, I'm quitting right now. And I put it in her desk, and I left again. I it was at the at the time, I felt like I was the worst person in the world. I was not doing. I was not following the values that my parents had taught me. Right. I was the restaurant would become a mess, of course. Then I learned that five minutes later, everything was perfect after I after I was gone. But honestly nowadays, 25 years later, i i I see that moment. I replayed that movie in my head, and I hear it like with the eye of the tiger song from a Rocky movie, like I'm leaving the restaurant, like I I took action into my own hands. I was I was being fully miserable, even if it was minutes, even if it's something dumb. I made my best. I spoke with the manager. Hey, please give me opportunity to be in a different role. She refused, and hence I left. So again, talking from privilege. It's not always that easy. I didn't have kids, it was just a summer job, etc, but conceptionally and directionally, I always try to remember that story, because you get. Data. Rebel when things are not working, the respectful thing. Do your best to change the course there, try to mitigate potential damages, but keep reveling.
Chris Rainey 40:11
No, I love that. Keep reveling. You got, when have you got to keep reveling? Much you need, if you haven't, you need to,
Juan Pablo Velasquez 40:17
if you I'm gonna be like those
Chris Rainey 40:20
you want to lose you're you're an artist. You've already got the post. It notes rebel. Ask me how, yeah, you should make like rebel, rebel post. It notes where you write down your rebel moments on on the post in your career. What are some of the moments on that point that kind of people along the way that have impacted your career, like special moments or people that you've encountered along your career that's really this fun, fond in your memories, this impacted your career? Yeah, exactly
Juan Pablo Velasquez 40:54
so. So maybe a couple fast from work and a couple fast from out of work, in work, my two first bosses. So the first boss that I ever got is Alberto Ramirez that I mentioned at the beginning, the Labor Relations Manager in human resources in the operation of Coca Cola in Colombia. He was the most respectful guy I've ever met. Like at that time, he would call me to my office when when you still used phones in the offices. And he would be like Juan Pablo, do you mind if I bother you with something? And I'm like, Yeah, that's why my boss. You're my boss. You're not bothering me. Right? Then, one year later, I moved to Mexico, and I had this other boss that I was talking about. He was mega rebellious, the one that I said that go and take the world, he would call me to my office same conversation. Juan Pablo, can you please come to my office and I'd be like, Yeah, sure. I'll be there in a moment. And let's say I was finishing an email or doing something 10 seconds later. Like, Juan Pablo, what part of now is not clear? I need you now here, right? I and this guy wanted to change the world, and he wanted to do a lot of things. He was mega rebellious. So those two people, which happened to be my first bosses, I think, like this famous book of Rich Dad, Poor Dad, I am like rebellious boss and respectful boss, because I learned so much from both, and that helped me shape my career. A lot learning from both when, when I go out from the organizational realm, maybe two people. One is Tal Ben Shahar. So I had the opportunity. He was this famous professor, Harvard professor, that thought about happiness and positive psychology. And I have the opportunity to study with him in Massachusetts. In
Chris Rainey 42:38
that was, what did you learn from him? Certificate in positive
Juan Pablo Velasquez 42:42
psychology. Now I it was funny, because at the time I did that, thinking like, Hey, I am in HR, so let me get some tools that will be helpful for me to help others, right? But I think very arrogant, right? Like, I'm okay, I'm HR, I know my things, but I will learn something to help others, and it ended up helping me a lot. I think it was a what I take the most is to put it mega simple. It's around enjoying life, right, embracing vulnerability. How to, at the same time, have fun now, while you simultaneously are building a better future, right? Finding that that means that I got that from tal very strongly and more recently and again, connecting it to HR, I was invited to CHRO summit in Dave Ulrich, home in Utah. This was a couple of years ago, and it was amazing that, you know, he's a legend in the HR field. I'm sure you know him. Well, I'm being immersed in you time in this environment with these great HR leaders. There were some arriving, literally, in their company, jets and everything. And I was it was amazing. And yeah, being there with Dave and getting his HR knowledge and being in his house, right? That a strong symbolic element. It was very powerful.
Chris Rainey 44:14
What was your takeaway from that meeting? That one thing, it's
Juan Pablo Velasquez 44:17
actually, and I'm giving away a lot of topics in the books, because coincidentally, Chris at that time, like I had written most of the book, but I needed a grand finale, and like to connect all the points of the book. And we were two days in his house, and the main topic that we talked was about navigating polarities, right? So contradictions and at the end, rebelliousness and respect is a contradiction and a popularity on itself. So I took a manual. I took a manual on how to navigate these polarities, and I'm spoiler alert, that's what I brought to the book. So it gave me a lot in terms of navigation. Similarities, and selfishly, it gave me great elements to organize the Yeah, the ideas for the book,
Chris Rainey 45:09
Dave's gonna ask you for a check now for some royalties. I'm gonna send him. I'm gonna send him this clip.
Juan Pablo Velasquez 45:18
I will certainly pay him, and if he's kind, I might go for three books. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 45:24
I know we're way over time already, but obviously HR is evolving so rapidly, right? Like it's crazy, we're even having conversations around AI considering where we started and where we are now. How are you personally keeping up with the latest trends and then applying that knowledge in the flow of work, considering all of the disruption change and volatile world do we live in?
Juan Pablo Velasquez 45:52
So I think it's it's two ways. One, in a more academic fashion, we have our chief innovation officer here in fives, and he's mega curious, and he's sending articles and topics and podcasts and everything. So so I really tried to pay attention to what he said shares, because it's really knowledgeable. So keeping good sources to for a more academic way. I just read the book The coming wave, right? So trying to be understand what's happening and what's not only what's happening, but what's coming. So that, again, on the more intellectual side, on the more practical side, I'm all about using AI tools, right? So I, we are doing a pilot here with copilot. I have my personal chat GPT account, and I regularly pay my monthly $20 and I pay that very happy, and I'm using it a lot, right, even, yeah, for a lot of both personal and work things. So I think it's also about experimenting and keeping up to today. So I think again, academically and intellectually, understanding the science and what's coming, and then do it yourself and practice it. Kind of going
Chris Rainey 47:08
back to your point earlier, right? About staying curious? Yeah, exactly like one of the key things, like, if I think of the 1000 CHROs I've interviewed, and one the ones that are very successful, it's the curiosity mindset for many. If you don't have that, you won't last very long. You kind of constantly
Juan Pablo Velasquez 47:26
gotta be distracting, because I was using AI, was using AI for we had to draft some policies on some stuff. And this is the kind of things that something like chat GPT will do it very easily for you, or will help you a lot right then, and you gotta change, and you gotta organize, but it's a great starting point. And I send it to someone from my team, and I said, like, Hey, this is coming from Maya, and it was my AI assistant, and I thought I had coined an amazing term, like, very respectful. Then I search in Google for Maya, and there's a lot of things that that that sheep had, that ship has left long ago, and many people had already thought about it before.
Chris Rainey 48:05
Yeah, listen, before I let you go, where can people grab a copy of the book? Yeah. And also, also follow you and connect with you.
Juan Pablo Velasquez 48:13
Thank you. So LinkedIn. Juan Pablo elasques, you can reach out. I appear as CHRO for five so both my name or my role. I think it will be easy to get me the English version of the book is available, hopefully when this chapter goes out in Amazon, the Spanish version is also on Amazon. It's in all libraries in Spanish, also Kindle audiobook. So just type in Google respectful rebels, Juan Pablo Velasquez, or Wale des I respect was Juan Pablo Velasquez, if you want the Spanish version, and I'm sure you'll find it
Chris Rainey 48:47
amazing. And for everyone listening, wherever you're listening or watching, we're going to put the links in the description, so to make your life very easy, so wherever you're listening or watching, if you click link in description, make sure you go connect on LinkedIn. You post quite often right on LinkedIn as well.
Juan Pablo Velasquez 49:04
I do, I do, Chris, so that's probably for another podcast, but let's keep it in. I do regular to share thoughts and ideas
Chris Rainey 49:13
amazing Well, listen. It was a pleasure having on the show. And keep up the amazing work and look forward to chatting again soon.
More from the HR Leaders Podcast
Juan Pablo Velasquez, CHRO at Fyffes and Author of the book Respectful Rebels.