Why Most Leaders Fail at Building Trust
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, Donovan Mattole, Chief HR Officer at Langan Engineering & Environmental Services, discusses how friendship, resilience, and trust play crucial roles in leadership and organizational success.
Donovan emphasizes the importance of building authentic relationships, fostering trust within teams, and maintaining a work-life balance through self-care and reflection. He also shares how leaders can create a culture of accountability and collaboration by prioritizing connection over control.
🎓 In this episode, Donovan discusses:
How HR leaders can foster resilience and prevent burnout.
The role of trust in building high-performing, accountable teams.
The importance of personal reflection and work-life balance for growth.
Why friendship and support networks are crucial for leadership success.
The concept of "teamship" and how it drives collaboration and innovation.
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And getting set up takes just a few minutes.
Chris Rainey 0:00
Donovan, welcome to the show. How are you, my friend? Uh huh, good to see you. Chris. Yeah, I feel like I need your jacket because I'm freezing right now in London.
Donovan Mattole 0:07
Well, hey, I'm not that far off. We're in the New York metro area, and it's really similar. Yeah, it's chilly. It's definitely chilly. I was
Chris Rainey 0:17
in Dubai, and Shane said, By the way, this is the temperature in the TV studio right now, and it was like, minus three. I was like, great fan. I was like, fat. I'm really excited to be sitting.
Donovan Mattole 0:29
No beach time for you.
Chris Rainey 0:31
Yeah, no as well. So great. Good to see you too. Like, it was good to to see you in person. And, yeah, how long we know each other now? Yeah,
Donovan Mattole 0:42
I know it's fun to see you and your wife when we were when you were in New York recently, yeah, but it's hard to believe it's been six years. How long has been I was the last on the podcast. I've seen you a number of times. But you know, this is, this is a momentous occasion.
Chris Rainey 0:59
How's it? How's the life of a sitter. Oh, she treating you. It's good.
Donovan Mattole 1:02
It's It's good. It's, uh, the calendar just changed 2025 and really exciting stuff coming down the pipeline. So before we
Chris Rainey 1:11
jump in, for those people that may have not heard the last episode, give them a quick background of your journey, some of the companies you've worked with, and then sort of to where we are now.
Donovan Mattole 1:19
Yeah, you can look up, and I'm sure you'll put in the podcast notes, kind of the previous recording. We spent a lot of time there, but I just realized 2025 I started working in 1995 Oh, wow. So it's been 30 years of kind of work, and this is my fifth company. So if you really take I've been here a year, so really divide that 30 by four. I work for Mars brand tag borders and Nautilus. Um, over 30 years and it's, it's been an amazing career. I feel so fortunate. Yeah, tell everyone
Chris Rainey 1:57
a little bit more about the business if they're not aware of the brand and the organization, yeah,
Donovan Mattole 2:01
so Langan is, we're kind of the premier, you know, we, we position ourselves as the best engineering and environmental consulting company globally. We have projects in, you know, 100 different countries. You would recognize this for iconic buildings any city you go into like Hudson Yards in New York City, you know, the Nina elm square building in London. I mean, it's just very cool to work for. You know, these, this company that does iconic work around the world. So we have 40 offices from London to Dubai to Panama, Calgary, wow, all across the US, and it's engineers, so it's different than what I've done. So last time we talked, I was with chemicals, before that, with Mars, every single company Chris has been a completely different industry. Is that intentional? It's intentional, and it's also, I think, speaks to people right at the end of the day, whether you're an engineer or you work making fitness equipment or whatever you work it, and then, you know, at the end of the day, you want to be developed, you want you want to be engaged. So yeah, HR is one of those fields that really can cross industries. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 3:17
I want to start off with a topic that perhaps there's a bit of a comes from a bit of a left field, but you spoke about before in the past, like the power of friendships, oh and and HR is often sort of just, we talk about HR being one loneliest roles in the workplace. Actually, I actually did a host on that on LinkedIn that went viral with that exact title. Why do you think that is and, and how can we build song talk about the importance of building, you know, social networks outside of the role I
Donovan Mattole 3:50
love, I love that question. And it is out of, out of left field a little bit, but it actually is so relevant. And this is kind of how the universe works, I guess. Because every year, have you heard of the wheel of life? No. Okay, so this is Tony Robbins. There's been many versions of this, but it the idea is that, you know, we have on this kind of journey, right? And it's a new year, right? So we it's a good time to talk about this. But in this journey of life, you have ups and downs, you have mountains, you have valleys, you have changes. And when you think of, you know, a lot of times people think of balance, but it's really you have a wheel, and there's multiple dimensions in that wheel, right? Career is just one of many and many kind of wheels of life. People do different models. Or there's like, seven dimensions. I have a friend, Janine, who does 12. She really divides that. And every year, in January, the first week of January, I pause, and I go, how am I doing? And I rate each of those 12 things from one to 10, right? And it's just a pulse check, because as life changes, you get married, you get divorced, you start. A new job. You know, different things take different amounts of energy. And there may be times where fitness is on a downturn, right? There may be times where you know you're putting all in on a career because you started a new job. But you want, over the course of your life, you really want to find, you know, some good, healthy quality versus quantity. And for me, I was thinking about it this year, and I actually brought this. This is a wheel of life. Oh, amazing. I raided my areas and friends is one that has been so important to me. And as a chro, I realized this year, hey, jobs come and go. Careers, things change. You know, relationships change, but those friendships that you have that at the end of the day is there for you throughout your life. And it takes nurturing. It takes really investing in them, putting that extra effort, and it's so easy to focus so much on our career, sometimes we forget about that. And I would say friendship is that area where, no matter what you're going through, you have people that can make that difference and speak into your life. And so this year, I just said, you know, I'm going to call. I called like a dozen people last week, nice, and I texted the number of people, and I just said, Hey, you mean so much to me. You're such an important part of my life. I just appreciate your friendship. And so for 2025 that's one thing personally I'm going to work on so that that that number goes up a little bit, you know, in quality.
Chris Rainey 6:45
I love that, man. It's so interesting. You say that because I mentioned I just got back from the bind the first two weeks of the year. I would never do something like that, but two of my friends were going on a holiday, and I kind of had a similar thing to you. I was like, I always say no, yeah to these things, because I'm like, I'm too busy. I've got this going on with work. I've got and this is like, and I was like, You know what? I'm just gonna say yesterday's time and I'm gonna go on holiday with my friends and enjoy myself, and I know I'm gonna come back to a lot of work and emails. But I was like, It's life's too short. Why am I working so hard if I can't, you know, do it. So we just literally lost me, literally a week before, booked the flights went, had an amazing time for a week, and I feel like I've just come back way more energized and enthusiastic and motivated. And just, don't get me wrong, it took me a few days to actually turn off, but it was worth it. But to your point, I'd always say no, normally or wouldn't prioritize that, but that's what makes me excel and be better at work and to achieve my goals, right as well. So I love that you're doing that,
Donovan Mattole 7:47
yeah. And it's, you know, I there was a book Gallup put out called the friendship factor 25 years ago. I don't know if you remember that book. It's a classic, and so, and it, it was part of their whole Q 10, they have the Gallup survey, and it was, you know, do you have a best friend at work? And that evolved into kind of studying friends. And what Gallup found is those, those relationships are some of the most important pieces. And it, it changed my perspective, and I was like, okay, yeah, I work all the time. And, yeah, family is important, but I have to invest in those friendships.
Chris Rainey 8:25
Yeah, I do remember that, by the way, now I just because I remember it, because I remember at the time thinking, why am I still here? Because I was at the company that I was at for 10 years, and I remember reflecting and being like, it's because I really enjoy working with these people, and they're my friends. They'll truly are my fans. And I work with Shane, who, you know, obviously, right, started a company, yes, yeah. So we worked together in the previous company. And so I was like, I so your point? Like, I even though recruiters would call me and offer me tons more money to leave every year the same ones, I'll be like, No. I'm like, I really, really enjoy the people I work with, and I value that more than an extra 5k on my paycheck at the time as well. So I do remember that. I do remember what was this on your will?
Donovan Mattole 9:14
Oh, I you know what? So that is one. Health and Fitness tend to be one. I go up and down on hoping to run my 40th half marathon this year, but it's been, it's been one that as a new CHRO and a new company, I have not put the running in, and that's one of my passions. And so this year, I'm like, Okay, I'm going to focus on that, some personal development stuff, some fun. You mentioned going to this last minute vacation. So friends are so important to me, my fun, I put a five
Chris Rainey 9:52
in, like out of 10 out of importance. So I What is the five? Yeah,
Donovan Mattole 9:55
it's, it's kind of how what's the quality this year? Like in this moment, right? And it can change also
Chris Rainey 10:03
you. Oh, so you The number represents where you are, where you are in that moment in time, in
Donovan Mattole 10:09
the moment in time. Okay, right? So it's not like the course of your life. Where are you at? It's like today, January 2025, Donovan, where are you at? Just be reflective. It doesn't matter. There's no judgment. And, you know, fun got a lower rating. And I'm like, okay, you know, I need to have some more fun this year. I
Chris Rainey 10:30
love that, man, you may. Could you just give us an overview of so many others, as you mentioned, like, there's so many I saw there. What are some of the types of things that are on there? Okay, I'll just, I'm sorry, I know. I'm just like, I'm really interested. No, this is so good.
Donovan Mattole 10:41
And shout out to Janine. And I'll give you her info in the show notes.
Chris Rainey 10:45
What's her last name? Janine.
Donovan Mattole 10:49
Janine Graziano, full, all right, we'll tag her in. We'll find Yeah, and she's, she's fantastic, but she has 12, so she has Career, Money, health, romance, fun, family, friends, support system, personal development, your physical environment, self care and a higher power, Higher Self Love, which could be like spirituality, could be whatever, right and and so what she's done is where a lot of the wheel of life have, like, six or seven dimensions, she's divided them out. So, like, you could have a really good friend work network, but you don't have a good support system, and maybe you need to have some help with the in the kitchen, or maybe you need some help, some doing the yard work. Or, you know, you what is your support system look like? And so she's taken these just went a little deeper. And I love what she's done. And so, yeah, I've used her model every year.
Chris Rainey 11:48
I love that man. I need to get hold of that paper, send that to me, really interesting exercise to sit to do every year, and as a matter of reflection, do you then
Donovan Mattole 12:01
I was just going to say coming out of the pandemic. So at brentag, we had going in to the pandemic, our HR team in Americas, and I was the head of HR for Americas for brentag, were the highest engaged team on our engagement survey, right. And two years later, I looked around at the group, and they were so tired, you know, HR takes care of everyone else, and so worn out, and the engagement surveys were coming back. We were like, average. We're just like, right in the middle of the pack globally. There was nothing special. And so I actually took this wheel of life, and I talked to Janine, and I said, you know, we're going to do kind of America's engagement and resiliency tour. And so I traveled around from Canada, all across the US, went to Mexico, Colombia, Brazil, and we actually talked about the wheel of life. And and the HR teams were like, you know, wait, this isn't work related. We're like, No, we care about you every in every dimension, and these are important, and we're giving you permission to focus on fun. We understand you have family that is important. And if you think of these 12 dimensions, your career is only one of 12, right? And so, you know, it was, it was important. And so
Chris Rainey 13:28
that was the HR team. While you did HR just
Donovan Mattole 13:32
focus, just focused on HR. And even now with this, with my new team, and I've been here a year, I was like, Okay, I'm not gonna wait again. Come in highest engaged team globally at Langan. And I was like, Okay, we're not gonna wait till it goes down. Let's start with this at the beginning. And so, yeah, this is, this is definitely been like a
Chris Rainey 13:56
group that discussion where people kind of shared, like, what, how did, how did you approach it?
Donovan Mattole 14:01
Yeah, we did. Um, we, we give everybody the model, yeah, talk about it. We explain it. We say, you know, there's no judgment. There's no good or bad. You fill it out privately, and you can share what you want to share. So there's 12 minutes, okay, right? You don't have to talk about, hey, I'm struggling in the romance area. You know, if you don't want it to you know, you can talk about whatever you ever you want. And it's really, it's really impactful on the teams.
Chris Rainey 14:28
Amazing. So do you do like, like a group virtual call? How did you well with
Donovan Mattole 14:34
with brain tag, I went out, and then I on the international trips. I was there in person, and Janine was on video, nice. And then in domestically, she joined me so
Chris Rainey 14:47
she can, she can, kind of like come in externally to kind of help lead conversations. Yeah,
Donovan Mattole 14:51
it's having an external executive page, which is Yeah, and it's really a nice balance of having to and then we introduced a number of other tools. Goals on just, you know, how do you say no, and how do you prioritize? And, you know, because we said, You know what, we focus so much on the business, let's spend some time focusing on HR, yeah, and that team, what
Chris Rainey 15:15
was the, one of the main standout things that was there any common did you identify any any commonalities that came across?
Donovan Mattole 15:25
HR, yeah, yeah. I think one we heard a lot about is self care and people spending the time to focus on themselves, because even outside of work, they're focused on their family. They're stressed about money. They're focused on, you know, but sometimes they don't focus on self care. And one of the things Jenny did is she separated health from self care too, because sometimes people think, Oh, it's just health. No, it's, you know, do you need time off? Do you need to set aside time on a weekend just to write or journal or go to the spa or get a massage. Like, what is self care to you? It's different for everyone, right? So that's one that was very common kind of across HR. No,
Chris Rainey 16:15
I love that. And unfortunately, I'm not surprised. I wish I could, I wish I could say I was surprised on that one, but we hear that a lot in our conversations, right? Both you and I and our networks are friends, and I find that the higher up that you get, that it seems that the loan here, lonely at the journey is, if that makes sense, to hire
Donovan Mattole 16:38
Absolutely. And I think that's one of the reasons friendship is so important because sometimes you develop those friends over time cross companies. They're they're external, and it's so easy, especially for those of us that are ch arrows to be we're the only ones. We're the only ones in our organization. And having that network of people outside that you lean on is critical, and some of my friends are former colleagues, former bosses, former employees. Many of them are friends through other places in my life where I've had passions but maintaining them. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 17:15
when you look back at your focus on friendships and building those bonds. What would you say is sort of the most surprising or perhaps rewarding aspect that has come from that?
Donovan Mattole 17:35
Well, for me, it's quality time, and it's been the most impactful moments of my life, where those friendships have made the biggest difference, right? So just throw it up. Friend Wendy, when I was going through a divorce, we did a volunteer work in Haiti together, right? It was like, Let's go give back. And we worked with this group in Haiti, and having her there, and I mean, I will never forget that. And I think of the valleys and the peaks, that's where those friendships have made the biggest impact in my life, and I value them so much because of that.
Chris Rainey 18:20
Yeah, what advice would you give to the perhaps HR leaders listening right now, who are feeling isolated?
Donovan Mattole 18:29
I would say, take the time wherever you are. It's it doesn't you don't have to have, you know, this group of a dozen deep friends. You may have one, or you may have some that are kind of developing whatever it is, wherever you are, just focus on it a little bit in 2025 and realize, you know, it's going to make you a better CHRO, a better leader. If you have that area in your life, that dimension or spoke on this wheel of life, um, notched up a couple levels, and just take the time, text someone today, call someone today. Life is short, and those are the kind of things that matter.
Chris Rainey 19:10
Yeah, I agree. I agree on the theme of the new year and setting goals. You mentioned the marathon, half marathon, yeah, as well. So part of sort of seeking discomfort is where we grow, we learn, we develop, is, you know, stretch ourselves. One of the questions I just sort of came to mind is, we have a random one, but if you knew that you couldn't fail, what would you
Donovan Mattole 19:38
do? I knew that I couldn't fail, you know, at at work, I would really push the organization on this team ship model even more. And you you've heard of it. You know, Keith and Keith barazi and others have really focused on this kind of evolution from. Management to leadership to teamship, yes, which is, as I've evolved and grown over time. This is kind of my philosophy. It's something I'm passionate about. And I would really push the organization to, hey, let's focus on building these high performance teams and and kind of sharing accountability, building trust, those kind of things are going to really make the biggest difference. Knowing that, you know, not everybody is there yet, and everybody is kind of evolving. I'm focusing on my direct report team, and this year, we're really leaning into that concept of teamship.
Chris Rainey 20:40
What would you say is the biggest challenge that you have? I think
Donovan Mattole 20:44
trust. We've done some team building and trust exercises that have really brought us together. And I think that took that foundation, really was, is the start of the journey, and now it's just kind of learning the tools, right? Because in HR, and most of our audience here is HR and business leaders, but we have COE centers of excellence, and so I have HR kind of split into five areas, and it's easy for those to become silos, right? Talent is, you know, different than rewards, which is different than the Business Partner Group, which is different than learning and development, and so they easily, the heads of those areas can be on their own. And what we're really trying to drive is that, hey, we're one team. What are our five big goals this year? And then how do we all influence so talent can talk into rewards, and rewards can talk into, you know, the business partners, and we're all kind of working together, and so that's, yeah, that's, that's where we are this year. Love
Chris Rainey 21:46
that. But like you said, though, that all starts with trust. You can't do any of that. And definitely don't think about it bringing any new tools or technology like until you build that foundation. That
Donovan Mattole 22:01
foundation is, yeah, that's nothing else can happen until that trust is built. So, yeah,
Chris Rainey 22:08
what are some of the commitments, or maybe beliefs that you had earlier in your career, when you started in HR that you no longer believe in?
Donovan Mattole 22:16
Well, I'll just double click on that teamship. I used to think, you know, it's kind of, I've been through the same evolution. So my career over 30 years, as we talked about, has been evolution, growth, journey, learning. These are kind of the buzz words that I've used over time. And when I started out, it was all about, okay, I feel like I know the best way, and so I need to make sure my team is following. And then it evolved over time. And Simon Sinek, you know, leaders eat last. And you know, so many books are like, you know, okay, if I want to be a leader, humility, adaptability, vulnerability show up. And so I kind of evolved into that, and now I've really realized, you know what, that's great, that's great leadership, but the real secret power is creating this team, and it's teamship and everybody kind of having that accountability and trust. And so that's what I'm really learning now and really leaning into and still evolving, growing, developing. And so when we're back six years from now for our next conversation, I'm sure I'll have hopefully evolved to something that's even stronger. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 23:40
do you feel like this is like a maybe it sounds a bit extreme, but like a crossroads,
Donovan Mattole 23:45
yes, yeah. I think this this year, it just feels like things are clicking and coming together, and lessons over decades are coming together. It really does. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 24:02
I love it. I'm
Donovan Mattole 24:05
excited. Yeah, and over dinner, when next time you and Natasha are in New York, I'll will really get open and talk about the wheel, and I
Chris Rainey 24:16
bring my wheel with me. Yeah, I love it. Love it. What's, what is the story that you keep telling about the problems of the HR community that no one's really talking about, you know?
Donovan Mattole 24:33
I think we hear all about, you know, business partnership and that stuff's been there a long time. You know, I think one thing that we lose sometimes is the employee advocate piece, truly not being a business partner, but being an employee partner, right? And it's so it's so easy to fall into this. Is okay, what are the policies? What are the procedures? How are people performing? Oh, there's performance management. We've got to, you know, put these individuals on tips. And sometimes we lose that human piece, and we lose perspective. And I think sometimes HR, there's emotional, you know, there's compassion fatigue. There is bias towards managers. And what I really think is important we sometimes don't talk about, is stepping back and going, Okay, we're here for employees at the end of the day, this department, in my view, and some will argue differently, is there for employees. We're of the people side of the business, and we never want to lose that. And sometimes, HR, frankly, does, yeah,
Chris Rainey 25:47
we still have that stigma, though, right? I did a video recently where, when I haven't released it yet, where I went out on the street and asked, and just like, asked people be like, can people on the street? What do they think that HR does. And unfortunately, it's still overwhelmingly that the HR. HR works for the business. HR is the policy, please. HRS. How do we overcome that stigma?
Donovan Mattole 26:12
I think it's like any stigma, it's actions speak louder than words. I have a good friend who's an engineer, and he likes teas. Me, oh, Donovan, you work it. You do an ER, right? Executive relations. And, you know, he loves to say that, you know, because he knows the word er rather than employee relations, you know. And, and, you know, it's, it's funny, and, and you laugh, but at the end of the day, that is the true stigma, and that's the reputation out there. Oh no, the HR police are here. Oh no, they're in the room. You know, better watch what you say. HR is here, and that is something we continue to have to break. And, you know, at the end of the day, we work for a company, and so I get it, and there are times you have to make decisions that benefit the company, but you can do it in a human way, and you can do it in an employee first way, and you can do it in a compassionate way. And that's the mantra that I never want to lose. I want people to come out and saying, Oh, good. HR is here. Yeah, okay. People are going to be treated well, no matter what. You know, obviously businesses have to respond to, you know, the the macro economic environment, or they won't survive. But HR is going to make sure that it's done in an employee friendly way. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 27:42
I never said this before, but in my previous company that was there for 10 years, I did have a gap of a year where I was let go of that company, yeah, because they were struggling around, like, round 2008 like, where many companies that was the time we're struggling, and it was done in a very, you know, I would say, I'd say great way, because it's never great to be told that, you mean, let go. But they called me a year later and said, Hey, Chris, would love to have you back, you know. And I went back, and I was there for eight more years, right? Because it was done in a way in which, you know, I firstly, I knew it wasn't down to my personal performance. I was, like, actually smashing it in terms of sales, but just the rest of the business, you know, wasn't doing great. And I went back and it was, and it was one of the best, is the best decision I made. And I only just, I only just remembered that. I never said that on the show, 1000 episodes as well. But Gemma, Gemma Gemma Gemma wasn't, I forgot our last name right now. I wish I could shout you out, Gemma, but you know who you are. Gemma in HR was great anyway. And, and, and it was done in a very, I can't remember exactly how it went, because it was so long ago, but I remember feeling, uh, walking out, being like, Okay, this wasn't, you know, this. It was the business. It was, it did. They just kind of were pretty, very straight with me. It was just, you know, no, no bullshit. It was. And I was like, Cool, okay, I can walk out of my head how high knowing I did my best. And it wasn't, you know, due to me, and I generally believed it, and I knew that business wasn't doing great, and when they called me back, I was like, I really enjoyed working there, and I left a job that was out and went back.
Donovan Mattole 29:18
It's amazing, Chris, that you say that because so many times businesses fail at that exit process. You know, we focus so much on the onboarding process, yeah, but that exit process makes such a difference. And I see sometimes managed when people voluntarily leave, they almost take it as a personal front and rather than create such a great experience when the person leaves that they will come back in a year like you did, they burn the bridge. They're like, why are you leaving? They take it personally. And it's similar when you do layoffs. You know that employee, if they feel humanized. And they feel seen. They're going to remember that more than the fact that the company had a downturn and unfortunately they had to lose their job. There's no, there's not the same stigma that there was, you know, in the 80s with that, there's been so many things through 2008 and the housing crisis and the recession and COVID that losing a job, employees understand, but it's how they're treated. Yeah, that makes the difference. You know,
Chris Rainey 30:26
no, I love that. I'm glad, I'm glad we touched on that, because we don't talk about that enough. I've got an interesting question for you. You're not going to be expecting this one. I wasn't expecting any of them, but I know this is great. This is why I love this is why I love trying, because it's pure authenticity and to anyone listening. None of this is planned, so as well, someone asked me this recently, and I kind of stumped me a little bit. And I was like, I'm gonna start. I'm gonna start asking my guests there, what is your contribution to the very thing that you complain about?
Donovan Mattole 31:00
My contribution to the very thing I complain about.
You know, one of the things that I complain about, and I don't like is, is triangulation and gossip, right? Like, I just, I'm like, you know, it's political, it's unhealthy, it's insidious to the organization. And I, I can't stand it, right? And it's, it's truly something I complain about, but then, almost in the self righteous, healthy way, I sometimes find myself talking to someone in a coaching way, like, you know, this individual or this leader, you know, we need to coach them because of this and and you kind of, I try to put a veneer on it, and, oh, this isn't The same thing, but it borders on it, right?
Chris Rainey 32:03
Yeah, I'm with you. That's where I'm with you. I think anyone listening can relate to that one as well. Yeah, it was with Sharon. My one was my EA actually really helped me with this one. It was that, like, I was complaining about missed deadlines and things are getting done at work, and I was getting frustrated, and my I kind of came to the realization, with the help of my AI, Lisa, that I wasn't setting clear enough expectations and I wasn't communicating clearly. So I'm frustrated if things are things that happen, but they're like, Well, you haven't communicated this. I thought it, yeah, exactly, yeah. I thought I was, I was like, What do you mean? You didn't understand that did. I can't read your mind. Chris, right? So the very thing I was complaining about was due to the fact that I wasn't communicating clearly enough and often and effectively enough with the team and about setting expectations as well. So I was like, okay, so it's an interesting one to ask ourselves. Sometimes that question, it's,
Donovan Mattole 33:06
it's a, it's, it made me pause, because you can answer authentically, or you can come up with a quick answer, right? It's like the classic interview question, Hey, what are your strengths? What are some development opportunities? Weaknesses, weaknesses. And the person says, Oh, I work too hard. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 33:25
I love those ones. And you're
Donovan Mattole 33:28
like, let's, let's get, let's get to the bottom of this. Like, No, give me a real one. Yeah, give me a real one. I appreciate
Chris Rainey 33:36
your one, because I think I'm the same as well. Like that, that exact example is also one that I mean I do exactly. We can dress it up, but it can be borderline going right, becoming the same thing as well. So I appreciate your art. What was what would you say in your career? Is some positive feedback that you you always receive that that still surprises you,
Donovan Mattole 34:02
some positive feedback that you get
Chris Rainey 34:04
that, yeah, that still surprises you to this day.
Donovan Mattole 34:08
And it's funny how we know that the weakness we mentioned weaknesses, but some of the strengths and opportunities are still the strengths 2030, years later, right? And I had a boss, CHRO at Nautilus years ago. She said, You know what? You have this high drive for results. You're always trying to drive for results, but sometimes I have to kind of slap you down, don't, right? And that's that's true, right? You know, I tend to over, over, plan over, you know, get excited about getting all these things done, and sometimes, you know, you just have to slow it down. Now, she did follow up, and she said, but I'd rather have someone like, yeah, slap down than someone I have to light a fire under right and get. Going, but yeah, that's been, been something and something I just have to always be aware of. Chris, like, Okay, I'm gonna overwhelm the team with, Hey, here's what we need to do in 2025 and, you know, not, not really go, Okay, what's the capacity of the team? How much can we do? What's the impact on the business? What's the most important things we can't do? A dozen things. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 35:28
you just described me and Shane's relationship. I'm the one who's, like, constantly coming up with these moon shots, like the reality check of like, all right, Chris, right. And so, but he, but he, we say the same thing when you need someone who's always pushing the boundary and trying to disrupt and and push forward, but you also need someone who can, can, can lay the keep the foundation stable, and, and, like you said, not overwhelm the team and and stuff like that. So, like, we kind of operate in those two modes, me and Shane, which work really? Yeah. Is it? We can't have two of us. If you have two of me, nothing works, and it falls apart. Is crazy. And if you have two of him, you will be disrupted. You won't you won't innovate, and you'll be like, Oh, this is the way we always do things, and you don't ever want to be there, and you also don't be too far in one direction, yeah, as well. So I think we got Lucky years
Donovan Mattole 36:19
ago, years years ago. One of my team members said we were doing some high performance team and she said, you know, you have managing vision and purpose is so good, like, you're such a great leader for our team. We feel really good. But Donovan, it can be an overused skill. And I was like, Ah, she's like, it's, you know, it's always, here's what we want to do, here's where we want to go, and there's you we've got to get there, right? There's so many details, and it's so easy sometimes to lose the details that we need people like Shane that are like, okay, great vision, great idea for the company, because if you didn't have that, you're not going to get there. But you need a Shane to be like, but here's the practical aspects of getting there, and here's what we have to do as the next step. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 37:07
I'm like, uh, I'm like, the architect of Shane's like, construction, like, he's like, here's, here's our here's our budget, here's the limitations, here's what we can achieve. And then he said, and he goes, he Shane has to kind of deliver all my crazy ideas, right? So there's a sort of a balance between both. And, you know, even when we said we're going to launch this podcast all those years ago in my bedroom, before we had anything, he was like, What do you mean? You're going to be have the number one HR podcast of the world? And I projected that into universe in my way, and said, I don't, I'm going to go and do it regardless. And he was like, you're insane to be able to do that. And like, here we are right, like, where we are now. So you kind of need the blind optimism. I don't know whether we would. Well,
Donovan Mattole 37:53
it's both. It's the you have to have the vision, right? And you are a visionary. You're a amazing manifester, and you deliver those things, but Shane is a great partner, where the two of you can kind of create that and help it come to pass. So he
Chris Rainey 38:11
would just say he puts up with me. So that's kind of, yeah, yeah.
Donovan Mattole 38:15
I'm sure you had many other conversations over the last 10 years that were similar than that first conversation, even,
Chris Rainey 38:20
like, five years ago, when I said that we're gonna build our AI copilot. Like, you know, there wasn't the word copilot back then. It was just AI. I literally said, Hey, let's figure out how we can use AI to translate our content into any language. That was sort of the first application of that. And he was like, Look to me, like, What are you talking about? I was like, imagine if you didn't need to transcribe and hire these companies that have to manually, like, dub your podcast, and anyone in the world can access all of our content, and you could just have it translate into any language, and we can use AI for that. He's looked at me like, what he's like, What are you talking about? And we went down the rabbit hole, spent a lot of money, didn't, didn't get very far, because we were too, way too early on that one January. But then chat GBT came along, and we were like, Haha,
Donovan Mattole 39:12
right. Let's leverage. Yeah, you had the idea, but
Chris Rainey 39:15
yeah, the idea, like tools. Did you know about that? Because that was similar with Uber. Do you know about that? So Uber, when it was first pitch, was rejected multiple times, like many companies, but one of the main reasons isn't that they hadn't free. G hadn't been released yet, right? So there was no way of actually tracking the cars and the drivers and stuff like that, right? And the passenger. So the idea was before the technology, like the technology hadn't evolved to catch up with the idea as well. And then a few years later, they came back with the fact that free G now worked. We all had smart we all had smartphones. We had apps. And then, of course, it is what it is today. The rest is history, right as well. When they first, when they first pitched it, everyone was like, you're insane, right? What do you mean? Like, can imagine pitching that back then, when you didn't have the technology, when you didn't have the
Donovan Mattole 40:06
tape, what I just immediately thought of, I think there's so many business ideas where someone will have the business idea, right? Yeah, and it's kind of like the universe puts it out there, and then five years later the technology is there, someone else leverages it, and they go, Oh, I had that idea. Everyone says, you're doing with AI copilot, Atlas copilot. And what Uber did was they had the idea, but as soon as the technology was there, they they jumped on the company that did it. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 40:39
we were literally, like, I was just waiting. It was America, like, does the second chat? GBT open? Ai opened up their AI. I was like, here we go. Because for the longest time, we tried to build our own large language model, which was very naive and kind of, you know, we're talking about out of our own personal savings, you know, we're not some huge VC to be able to do that as well, almost too ambitious along along the journey. But, yeah, I think that's, that's what keeps me going, I think, as an entrepreneur, and is the it's something about having the ability to have an idea and then wake up and knowing that you can go into the office and make it and bring it to life, and then seeing the value it creates, that is like a drug. It's hard to I wish, I wish I could eloquently say it a lot better than that, but like just waking up in the morning with an idea immediately going to create it, and then two weeks later seeing it in front of you, there's something about that which is just almost doesn't feel, I don't know, it's hard to describe Right,
Donovan Mattole 41:43
right? And sometimes it's two weeks, and sometimes it's two years, yeah,
Chris Rainey 41:47
like, five years,
Donovan Mattole 41:51
you still have that vision, and you see it eventually, yeah,
Chris Rainey 41:54
I had someone say to me the other day. They're like, Oh, wow. Like, you I can't believe what you created, a podcast like, you know, in this year, it's been amazing. And I was like, no, no, no, no. 10 years, 10 years. They're like, What do you mean? I was like, you just saw this month, you know, like, 10 years, 1000 episodes. A couple of each episode takes maybe four or five hours to edit. So you're talking about 5000 plus hours, you know, that's off of work. You know, the reps, and no one sees that. They just see the, you know, the success, or they see the LinkedIn profile, or whatever it may be, but no one sees that pit, you know, so doing it, doing these things, doing the hard things in when no one's looking in this, in the dark, is that's the hardest part, I think that people don't really get if that makes sense,
Donovan Mattole 42:55
I it totally makes sense. And I enjoy. I love talking to you. I enjoy, enjoy this meeting, yeah? And I feel
Chris Rainey 43:05
like that's, I feel like that's something that I realized about HR, like, early on, is like there was so much work that was being done in this in but no one was seeing it, and no one was speaking about it, right? And I was like, I need to figure out a way to shine a spotlight, yeah, on this. And that's why I launched, that's why I launched a podcast in the first place. I was like, all of this work is being done that no one really knows and no one really appreciates. This is obviously a little bit different now, but talking about 10 years ago when we first started, it's like, there's, there's, like, amazing things going on that no one really knows about, or no one's talking about. And that's that was the original reason why we launched the show was just to tell the stories and share the work in the same way that I just described. Well,
Donovan Mattole 43:45
it's it's the people are the biggest part of every company you know at the end of the day. And that's the role of HR. It's about people and leadership and teams and culture, and those are the things that matter at the end of the day. So
Chris Rainey 44:00
yeah, last question before let you go, what are you most grateful for? You know, I'm
Donovan Mattole 44:07
going to stick with the friendship model. Since we started with that conversation, I am so grateful for people who have been there throughout my life, from when I was little to now I'm optimistically middle aged and and people have been there, so I just want to shout out to friends.
Chris Rainey 44:30
Very grateful, amazing. I love your call to action earlier about like, don't wait, reach out.
Donovan Mattole 44:36
Don't wait. Text people today after this podcast, yeah. Or if you're not driving,
Chris Rainey 44:43
if you're at home. Now you can just tell your you can just tell your Alexa to text them, but don't wait, do it as well. But listen, I always enjoy our conversations, and it's been great to see you personally evolve. Life and your career and our relationship has been great. I'm super happy for you, and whenever we meet, I can kind of always feel that you are living your purpose and and, and that really kind of shines through, you know, in our conversations and interactions. So I appreciate you taking the time out to come on the show and we'll see. Let's not wait sick, but we'll see each other in the meantime. But we'll do Yeah, six years from now, we'll do another one. We'll mark it in the calendar, and we'll bring up the will and see where we're at,
Donovan Mattole 45:32
January 2031
Chris Rainey 45:35
See you then. Thanks. Okay. Bye. Bye. Thanks, Chris. You
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Donovan Mattole, CHRO at Langan.