Why Your Culture Doesn’t Feel Safe Yet (and what leaders get wrong)
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast On The Road, we sit down with Peter Andrew Danzig, Senior Advisor, Foundation Culture at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, to unpack what psychological safety really means beyond the buzzword.
Peter explains why psychological safety is not a checklist, policy, or one-time initiative, but a belief system that has to be co-created, practiced, and reinforced through everyday behavior.
Peter shares how leaders can build safer spaces by embracing healthy friction, operationalizing empathy, and creating room for challenge, accountability, apology, repair, and growth.
Most importantly, Peter reveals why the future of culture belongs to organizations that stop treating safety as comfort, and start building environments where more people can speak honestly, move through conflict, and still feel seen, heard, and valued.
🎓 In this episode, Peter discusses:
Why psychological safety must be treated as a belief system, not a checklist
How healthy friction, challenge, and disagreement strengthen trust when handled well
How rupture and repair can help organizations move through harm, conflict, accountability, and growth
Why neuroscience, identity, stress, and life outside work all shape how people experience safety at work
Why empathy, compassion, vulnerability, and perspective-taking need to be practiced, not just understood
What if the future of work wasn’t more artificial?
What if it was more human?
On May 20, Workhuman Forum London brings the UK and Europe’s most forward-thinking CHROs, CPOs, and people leaders together at the London Hilton Park Lane for one defining day on trust, recognition, psychological safety, and leadership in the age of AI.
Because as AI accelerates, the real competitive edge is not just better technology.
It’s stronger cultures.
It’s leaders who can build trust when pressure rises.
It’s recognition that connects people to strategy.
It’s psychological safety that helps teams speak up, adapt faster, and perform through uncertainty.
And it’s human intelligence that gives leaders a clearer view of what is really happening inside their organisation.
You’ll hear from world-class thinkers and senior HR leaders including Rachel Botsman, Eric Mosley, Susan David, Ph.D., Tom Lee, and more, unpacking the practical strategies people leaders need now.
This is not another conference.
It’s a reset moment for HR leaders who know the next era of work cannot be built on automation alone.
[01:00:00:04 - 01:00:02:06]
Peter, welcome to the HR Leaders Podcast, my friend. How are you doing?
[01:00:02:06 - 01:00:04:21]
Thank you, I'm doing well. I'm happy to be here. Next
[01:00:04:21 - 01:00:10:05]
time, I'm already realizing, JC, you're listening right now. We need like a best dressed podcast award.
[01:00:11:05 - 01:00:16:23]
I will take it. And that way you will take it. I will take it. Yeah, and if I know you're coming that day, I'll set my game up.
[01:00:16:23 - 01:00:18:18]
This game is wonderful. This is classic.
[01:00:18:18 - 01:00:23:12]
I feel like this is like, I feel like I'm like attending your show.
[01:00:24:17 - 01:00:26:23]
That you're about to perform. You know,
[01:00:26:23 - 01:00:28:06]
that is, that's half the
[01:00:28:06 - 01:00:29:08]
speaker. I do
[01:00:29:08 - 01:00:48:22]
sing, actually. You do, no way. My original degree was in musical theater. Really? Yeah, my first, it's a retirement. Would you play an instrument? I do. Would you play a piano? So maybe we can get like a new set up, like a piano set. Do you know what they're performing later? The work human band. My goodness, I don't know which band is playing, but they've got at least one. The work human, they're seeing,
[01:00:48:22 - 01:00:51:05]
they're on band. Oh, yes, yes, they have their own band.
[01:00:51:05 - 01:00:55:11]
Yes, they're wonderful. It's kind of... Every year and then the local... Oh, you heard
[01:00:55:11 - 01:01:01:27]
them? Yes. All right. So again, I'm early reviewed. They're great. I'm hearing things and I'm like, "Oh, I need to see this."
[01:01:01:27 - 01:01:05:08]
It's a rarity to have, like, to be able to go to work. They've got
[01:01:05:08 - 01:01:06:16]
like 10 members.
[01:01:06:16 - 01:01:07:26]
Yeah. I was like, "What?"
[01:01:08:29 - 01:01:21:24]
You've got four people playing piano. Like, how many would you need? I'm like, enough to do what they're doing. I would go up there in a minute. Yeah? Yeah. Before we jump in, tell them a little bit more about your background, sort of the journey. Yeah.
[01:01:21:24 - 01:01:24:08]
So I have a very nonlinear background.
[01:01:25:11 - 01:01:32:14]
I was working in the performing arts for 20 years and realized that the arts were marginalized. So I started a nonprofit called Theatrical Trainer.
[01:01:33:18 - 01:01:40:13]
And in that time did inclusion and belonging and psychological safety work. And then worked with a lot of industries, the Screen Actors Guild,
[01:01:40:13 - 01:01:42:00]
film, television, Broadway,
[01:01:42:00 - 01:01:51:09]
helping them understand psychological safety, onset, intimacy, that kind of work, coordination. And then at some point, seven years in, I said, "I
[01:01:51:09 - 01:01:54:11]
really love the clinical, neurological side of this." And so
[01:01:54:11 - 01:01:55:24]
I went back for
[01:01:55:24 - 01:01:57:03]
a seven-year clinical
[01:01:57:03 - 01:02:00:02]
degree. Really? Yep. Wow. That's a commitment, man. Social
[01:02:00:02 - 01:02:09:03]
work, social, you know, public policy and neurology, and started looking at the ways that our brains play with creativity at the workplace. And I found that fascinating.
[01:02:10:05 - 01:02:21:07]
And lo and behold, now 15 years later, I've been working through various organizations, and consulting, and I'm currently at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, in the
[01:02:21:07 - 01:02:24:24]
culture sector and organizational dynamics. And it's wonderful. So
[01:02:24:24 - 01:02:26:27]
very nonlinear. What a journey. And still a
[01:02:26:27 - 01:02:28:02]
clinician. So I'm also a trauma
[01:02:28:02 - 01:02:30:00]
therapist. So I keep a private practice.
[01:02:30:00 - 01:02:36:00]
Incredible. And you're speaking right on a, you're doing a panel here. Yes. Right. What's that about?
[01:02:36:00 - 01:02:48:27]
So we'll be discussing the concept of psychological safety, but people really think it's a checklist, and it's actually a belief system and it's co-created. So we're going to kind of walk them through how to operationalize something that is co-created with
[01:02:48:27 - 01:02:50:08]
people versus
[01:02:50:08 - 01:03:00:14]
this checklist of, I feel good. This is what I want. This is what you should do. We're going to kind of break down from various perspectives as myths, and how to actually attain psychological safety
[01:03:00:14 - 01:03:01:27]
on a continuity basis.
[01:03:01:27 - 01:03:16:11]
Yeah. Building that. I think we use the terminology quite a lot. I'm good friends with Amy Emerson. I've been on the show many times. Amazing woman. But I feel like they're like, what would you say like maybe some misconceptions that you hear about psychological safety or common misconceptions? I think
[01:03:16:11 - 01:03:30:18]
the biggest misconception that I often see with organizations, it depends on size and other dynamics, but the biggest misconception is that you have organizational safety. When I go in and I do early consulting and having those conversations,
[01:03:31:21 - 01:03:32:05]
typically
[01:03:32:05 - 01:03:36:13]
those who say they feel psychologically safe have systems that are built for those that are most
[01:03:36:13 - 01:03:36:24]
comfortable.
[01:03:38:00 - 01:03:51:05]
Okay. So when I see that, that's usually my kind of indicator. I'm like, oh, you feel very comfortable. It's like, yeah, I never have tensions here where everything's lovely. And I'm like, okay, tell me a little bit more. It's like the systems are just comfortable and easy for them to navigate.
[01:03:52:13 - 01:03:58:06]
The myth is that psychological safety is based on the ability to diplomatically disrupt, speak up,
[01:03:58:06 - 01:03:59:29]
talk across different
[01:03:59:29 - 01:04:08:07]
dynamics, intersections, levels of hierarchy. And that's where you get into that granular piece where people think they have it, but only maybe
[01:04:08:07 - 01:04:10:11]
certain populations or people have access to it
[01:04:10:11 - 01:04:16:06]
or feel comfortable with it. That's really interesting because psychology will say it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be friction.
[01:04:16:06 - 01:04:18:08]
Oh, no. Psychological
[01:04:18:08 - 01:04:18:17]
safety.
[01:04:18:17 - 01:04:21:00]
Psychology 101, you need friction.
[01:04:21:00 - 01:04:25:24]
That's how you work through. So those people saying, yeah, I thought psychology could save it. I mean, are you being challenged? Yes.
[01:04:26:26 - 01:04:39:07]
And right now, everything we're talking about, even it's working with our conferences around, we're all being challenged right now and stretched and a lot of transformation going on, a lot coming at our employees. Oh my goodness. This is the real test. This is the test. This is
[01:04:39:07 - 01:05:43:28]
the moment that I think is really interesting also is I lean into the neurology piece of his work. So as we have our conversations today, many people are like, why are you so focused on the circuitry of the brain? We're trying to talk about HR dynamics. I'm like, yes, humans are working for you and human neurology is important. And since 2020, I think that our brains have been wired to be hypervigilant for threat, which is a worldwide conceptual and very important topic to still discuss. And since then, there's been a lot of other upheavals. And obviously, we're in a very tumultuous time right now. So that hypervigilance still manifests in different ways. So there's this neurological piece of psychological safety that is happening outside of the workplace at a very subconscious level that I think if we can open up those four ways for people to talk about it, you tend to start to have the real conversations of, yes, I may feel safe here at work, but I don't feel safe at home or I feel safe at home. I don't know how to feel safe here at work with certain intersections. And that's it's a tough
[01:05:43:28 - 01:05:52:28]
conversation. A tough conversation. And I'd like to understand more about what you mean by it being treated as a core belief system rather than an initiative. What do you mean by that?
[01:05:52:28 - 01:06:10:25]
Yeah, you know, so culture in general is co-created, right? No one person can hold up an entire culture of an organization. There's people who make drastic cultural impact. That's wonderful. But I think the misnomer is that people forget they deliver wonderful
[01:06:10:25 - 01:06:13:20]
policies, practices and build a culture of inclusion
[01:06:13:20 - 01:06:18:21]
belonging. But you have to keep that up. It's not once and done. People come in and out of the door.
[01:06:20:01 - 01:06:22:05]
Or also like when it's you can't just do it when it's convenient.
[01:06:22:05 - 01:06:23:18]
Yes, yes.
[01:06:24:24 - 01:06:25:29]
I'm Cubano. So we
[01:06:25:29 - 01:06:27:06]
say, when convenient.
[01:06:27:06 - 01:06:47:27]
Yes, exactly. It cannot be a convenient checklist. It's something that has it's a muscle that you have to continuously neurologically build. Leaders have to cultivate it. There's a core practices that it's a belief system because you have to know it to be true. Yeah. And that is shared and it's that dynamic is difficult. Yeah. What
[01:06:47:27 - 01:06:56:10]
are those in your work leadership behaviors that really drive the needle all pulled into a back.
[01:06:56:10 - 01:07:36:02]
Yeah. You know, there's it depends on I find worldwide leaders. It's fascinating what I love about work human is there's a worldwide perspective. And I think that, you know, when I work with international organizations, leadership is very much built on empowerment as a collective. And that's I'm being generalist there. But a lot of international organizations I've worked with have a there's more of a continuity there of community where I think that business acumen in capitalism or America has a different kind of avenue. It's like there there is the the leaders. I think the core things that are needed or empathy and compassion. Yes, you can understand those conceptually. They must be practiced.
[01:07:36:02 - 01:07:40:16]
They must be operationalized. You must feel comfortable lifting others up
[01:07:40:16 - 01:07:47:04]
and taking another perspectives. And I think the biggest part of psychological safety is saying, I don't know. Can you help me?
[01:07:47:04 - 01:08:29:13]
And that's hard. Like most leaders and people don't want to be vulnerable. Oh, no. I was I was a big corporate of that for years. I always thought like my value was in the fact that I didn't need help. And I didn't need to ask for help. Right. And I'm successful when I'm a leader. And I was like, I read that was my biggest, like, weakness. Yes. And it didn't allow people to open up to me. It didn't allow like me to be vulnerable. My team and ask for help. And it took me a long time, like to build courage to be able to do that. And not like the fear of like, am I going to be seen as less than as a CEO, as a dad, as a husband, as a friend. I can't do all of those intersections yet, right? They're competing at all times.
[01:08:29:13 - 01:08:36:08]
Yeah. Yeah. And it's I think that one of the things is that there's this notion of I have to be on top of my game with all of my
[01:08:36:08 - 01:08:38:07]
intersections at all times. It's impossible.
[01:08:38:07 - 01:08:43:02]
It's impossible. And at some point, we told people leave it at the door and
[01:08:43:02 - 01:08:45:16]
work is work home is at home. And then there was work
[01:08:45:16 - 01:08:48:08]
life harmony. And I always say that is not true. I think it's
[01:08:48:08 - 01:08:48:12]
integration.
[01:08:49:20 - 01:08:50:10]
Like balance
[01:08:50:10 - 01:08:53:25]
drives me. I will say it's not it does not register because it's not balanced.
[01:08:53:25 - 01:09:24:20]
Nor should it be. I don't think nor should nor should it be. And I think for me, like, one thing I've realized now is like, I have a self-aware to know when I'm in different like sprints and different moments. And I communicate that with my team, my wife, like there's a certain period of stressful time of going through personally or or with the business, like identifying that and trying to create some support systems. Yes. Around it rather than just ignoring it. Yeah. As if it's going to be okay.
[01:09:25:23 - 01:09:26:27]
I'm so glad you brought that up because
[01:09:26:27 - 01:09:48:23]
I sometimes I come in and in my work and culture, I often will say, hey, you know, part of my job, I tell people neurologically, if you can turn off the news, disconnect when you need to take it in when appropriate for your psychological well-being, great. But part of my job is top of day, knowing what is going on in the world that is affecting my employees, is affecting
[01:09:48:23 - 01:09:54:13]
our patients or affecting the people that I see or the companies I'm working with. And it
[01:09:54:13 - 01:10:23:00]
is there are days that I have to come in and say, you know, that headline or that situation is both upsetting to see as a human. And sometimes it hits my own personal intersections. Yes. You know, I gladly say I am a non-binary queer person of color here in the United States. And there are days I need to say, hey, I'm going to my hundred today is not going to look like you expect it to look. Yeah. And sometimes I say that expectation came from me. So I'm responsible for my own suffering. So
[01:10:23:00 - 01:10:24:11]
I'm going to disrupt that.
[01:10:24:11 - 01:10:35:25]
You know, I'm going to say I'm not a good space today. And I need a little more quiet, a little more regulation. I need to kick this conversation or this meeting to another time so I can really make the most magic impact.
[01:10:35:25 - 01:10:36:17]
Yeah.
[01:10:36:17 - 01:10:46:03]
And I think that does take courage. It took me a very long time as well to feel comfortable to say, not feeling it today. I'm not quite there. Basic agent. I felt like
[01:10:46:03 - 01:10:50:27]
something that was the biggest unlock though. Now, I can just say to my team, I need a day off or I need a break.
[01:10:51:29 - 01:11:10:29]
And I have more employees coming to me now opening up around some of their personal challenges that they're facing where it's so sad when you see companies where people are booking off using their holiday for personal issues because they don't want to tell their manager. They've actually even researched recently that they'd rather talk to an AI
[01:11:12:00 - 01:11:19:24]
agent or AI bot than their own manager around their challenges and mental health and stuff like that. Well,
[01:11:19:24 - 01:12:18:10]
the interesting thing about AI is, you know, I know that it is the hot topic outside of psychological safety in business right now, but it is programmatically at this current moment meant to be affirming. So I always look at that data point and find that interesting. I'm like, okay, if you cannot go to your colleagues or your manager, your leadership, and feel seen and heard, and an AI bot is doing that just programmatically. It's built to affirm as a mirror. Yeah, as a mirror. And that's dangerous, too. That is data. It's dangerous. It doesn't allow conflict, but you need conflict for resolution and growth and connection and all of that. But my first starting point always there is that is that is an area of opportunity. If you can't speak to your leader, but you can speak to AI or ask AI, how can I talk to my leader? That's okay. But if you're having that conversation with AI weekly, that means you really, you and your leader need to do some report building, you know, rupture, repair, whatever it might be, or leveling out as humans, which is difficult. The full person
[01:12:18:10 - 01:12:22:19]
has come to the equation. One of the challenges I'm seeing right now, I don't even have to explain it really,
[01:12:24:08 - 01:12:41:04]
is like, companies are really worried about facing some of these issues head on. Yes. Right. So like, they want to protect psychological safety, but how do you do that without lowering accountability and avoiding difficult conversations?
[01:12:42:22 - 01:12:42:26]
There
[01:12:42:26 - 01:12:57:17]
is a difference between direct aggression and grievance and accountability. And accountability is needed for grievance and whatnot. But quite often with HR, I think there's a missed opportunity, especially, or work in
[01:12:57:17 - 01:12:59:14]
culture and people in general, organizational
[01:12:59:14 - 01:12:59:27]
dynamics.
[01:13:01:01 - 01:13:14:21]
We are fearful to have a conversation on rupture and repair. It is much easier actually to document and hold somebody in a punitive place and say, "You shouldn't do that. Don't do that again."
[01:13:15:23 - 01:13:38:00]
And I've sat in those rooms and it's a shame because there's a, there is a, you're instilling shame. Even if the person is wrong, you're not giving them the ability to cognitively grow, build rapport, to apologize in a way that feels authentic, to move through and past, and both need to exist. Even if one of the perspectives is off
[01:13:38:00 - 01:13:40:03]
or painful,
[01:13:40:03 - 01:13:41:17]
that perspective caused a rupture.
[01:13:42:18 - 01:14:00:10]
That rupture deserves repair, but sometimes I think our policies and procedures avoid those conversations because we're afraid to perpetuate it further. But sometimes that conflict just has to come out more so for people to feel heard and seen and to grow. And that's, I think that is a missed opportunity in leadership
[01:14:00:10 - 01:14:01:09]
as well is that,
[01:14:01:09 - 01:14:10:17]
you know, that vulnerability piece when we go right to grievance and shame people for things that sometimes they need to work
[01:14:10:17 - 01:14:11:12]
through. There's fragility
[01:14:11:12 - 01:14:36:05]
there. And I'm not making defense for those direct aggressions that happen sometimes at the workplace. But I would love to see a world where people have the opportunity to apologize and grow authentically and for us to trust people to get to that process and put human beings at the forefront. And that's why I think psychology can play a larger role in the way that we build policy and procedure at organizations and human resources. I think
[01:14:36:05 - 01:14:37:24]
there's no human that wouldn't
[01:14:37:24 - 01:14:44:04]
benefit from knowing how the brain works, how empathy actually works at a neurological level. I think people would be fascinated and
[01:14:44:04 - 01:14:46:26]
learn much more about themselves. It's part of your body. 100%.
[01:14:46:26 - 01:14:53:02]
I also think like we just haven't provided enough support to our leaders and managers
[01:14:54:09 - 01:15:10:04]
to even handle these conversations. Like when I became a manager, I didn't give any, I didn't get any training or support on how to have a difficult conversation, to give feedback and deal with anything of what we're talking about right now. I was just like winging it basically. I bet you
[01:15:10:04 - 01:15:12:10]
were told though what that dashboard and metrics were
[01:15:12:10 - 01:15:13:18]
to meet, you know, those.
[01:15:13:18 - 01:15:37:01]
Yeah. I don't know any of that stuff. I learned the hard way by doing a really bad job of it, unfortunately, along the way. And then like only later in my career for my own personal development, like, you know, I was like, Oh, wow. Or creating a safe space to practice. Yes. Now we can do that with things like AI coaching. Yes. And actually get the reps in.
[01:15:37:01 - 01:15:38:12]
Yeah. This is a
[01:15:38:12 - 01:15:39:27]
skill, right? Like it's a
[01:15:39:27 - 01:15:56:03]
continuous skill and it's one that evolves because the world evolves. There is a consistent evolution of human needs, beliefs, conflicting intersectionality, cultural humility, all of those pieces. It's a lot. It's a lot. And also though, I think that you nailed it
[01:15:56:03 - 01:15:57:27]
when you said vulnerability,
[01:15:57:27 - 01:16:23:21]
people use these words very loosely. Yeah, what does that mean? When you talk to researchers, you know, and I think of like Brene Brown or Angela Duckworth here. When you think about it, if you can open up vulnerability, not just conceptually by a brief definition, but a learned, like intellectual experience for people, quite possibly that allows for multiple avenues that people can't imagine in the workplace. And I think that those metrics
[01:16:23:21 - 01:16:25:12]
can often
[01:16:25:12 - 01:16:53:00]
be informed by that as well. I often say, where is the human in this? Yeah. Yeah, no. And it's often missing. Yeah, no, it's more of the humanism means towards an end. It's dehumanizing. And I don't understand. I truly don't understand sometimes why we don't take the invitation a question I will always ask and be continuously curious about. I think that's what gives me purpose in this work. I don't know that there will ever not be a time to be curious as businesses evolve and people. Now more than ever. Now more than ever. In the age
[01:16:53:00 - 01:17:15:15]
of AI, curiosity is this new superpower. Yes. You know, how you how you measure that is a whole another, another challenge. That we've been talking about for the last couple of days as well. It's going to be super exciting. Listen, before I let you go, because I want to let you enjoy the rest of the event. Parting advice for people that early in this work on their journey. I know where do I start? Yeah,
[01:17:15:15 - 01:17:43:06]
yeah. Where do I even start? Like this a lot. Yeah, you know, so first, I think that it is allowing people to define what it is. So when I tend to give a first step, my first question is just asking what people think psychological safety is and not saying it's wrong because it is self perceived. And so many people will have different responses. And then kind of debunking what it isn't, which is a checklist or something that can be given to you or guaranteed. Just like I say, safer spaces.
[01:17:43:06 - 01:17:44:15]
I can't guarantee a safe
[01:17:44:15 - 01:17:51:04]
space always for everybody. That is not possible. There may be a comment. There may be an experience that
[01:17:51:04 - 01:17:55:15]
makes you feel not safe. And we all have them. Yeah, we all have them. But
[01:17:55:15 - 01:18:09:29]
as safe as possible or safer space. So I think starting to have those dialogues of what you think it is. And then I think that organizations can really nail that down a little bit better by holding those conversations in tandem with mission and their values,
[01:18:09:29 - 01:18:12:06]
whatever their values and ethics are.
[01:18:12:06 - 01:18:14:20]
And that is a that's a critically important piece.
[01:18:14:20 - 01:18:18:28]
Listen, I appreciate you coming on before I go. Where can people find you? Oh, of
[01:18:18:28 - 01:18:24:20]
course. Yes. So I keep all of my stuff very simple. You can find me on psychology today. I write there often.
[01:18:25:23 - 01:18:36:23]
There's a blog called Don't Toy With Me and I play creativity. I write LinkedIn. You can find me, Peter Andrew Danzig. And I keep all my social social media, Facebook, Instagram. I'm not on TikTok.
[01:18:38:18 - 01:18:42:04]
But just by name, Peter Andrew Danzig. So you can find all that information there.
[01:18:42:04 - 01:18:49:00]
I appreciate it. And everyone, as always, those links will all be below wherever you're watching or listening right now. But thank you so much. My pleasure. Enjoy the rest of the day. All right. Yes.
[01:18:49:00 - 01:18:50:18]
Thanks. Thank you. That was great, man.
Jorge Quezada, Vice President, Culture & Performance at Granite Construction.