How to Prepare Your Workforce for Jobs That Do Not Exist Yet
Every company wants to become AI-native. But who is preparing the workforce for what comes next?
In the most recent HR Leaders Podcast episode, I had an important conversation with Bijal Shah, CEO & Board Director at Guild.
She explains why becoming AI-native is not simply a technology upgrade. It requires employers, governments and learning institutions to rethink how people gain skills, build careers and participate in the future economy.
5 things you’ll learn from this episode:
How organisations can make the AI-native transition without leaving their workforce behind
Why Bijal believes 95% of companies still need to make this leap
What makes workforce transformation a collective action problem
How critical thinking, judgement and curiosity separate useful AI from “slop”
Where automation creates an advantage, and where human connection must remain
What if AI agents were not just another way to create more learning content?
What if AI agents could help talent teams find real skills gaps, build the right intervention, and deliver it at the moment employees need it most?
That is what Arist is building with the first end-to-end AI agent for enablement.
Instead of relying on slow needs analysis, outdated content libraries, and one-size-fits-all training, Arist helps organisations move from guessing what people need to identifying real gaps in real time.
Its AI agents can interview employees, uncover talent gaps, create personalised learning, and deliver it directly through tools like SMS and MS Teams.
Because the future of enablement will not be built by more content or more manual workflows. It will be built by teams that can spot business needs faster, deliver learning that fits the moment, and prove impact.
With Arist, AI agents become a way to close skills gaps faster, improve performance, and help employees get the right learning before the business has already moved on.
WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.929
In product, we talk about build, buy, or partner,
2
00:00:04.600 --> 00:00:08.400
and you're seeing companies have to go through that exercise and figure
3
00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:12.320
out, am I going to build it myself? Okay, if I build it myself, I need to go find
4
00:00:12.360 --> 00:00:16.220
the talent that I may not have today, or I need to upskill
5
00:00:16.261 --> 00:00:19.120
the talent I have today in order to actually build the future.
6
00:00:19.840 --> 00:00:20.710
Partner is
7
00:00:22.080 --> 00:00:26.000
really off the table in this case, because then you're not really becoming AI
8
00:00:26.080 --> 00:00:29.360
native yourself. Or buy is the third option.
9
00:00:29.470 --> 00:00:30.820
And so Chris, you are seeing
10
00:00:31.700 --> 00:00:35.080
places where early AI native companies are getting a lot of
11
00:00:35.140 --> 00:00:38.140
traction. You're seeing legacy players swoop in,
12
00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:42.890
and try and acquire them. And I think the real test will be, can
13
00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:46.200
those companies keep innovating at the pace that they were innovating
14
00:00:46.300 --> 00:00:49.910
at inside of these larger organizations?
15
00:00:49.990 --> 00:00:49.990
Yeah.
16
00:00:49.990 --> 00:00:51.699
And I think only time will tell.
17
00:01:05.800 --> 00:01:07.360
Bijou, welcome to the show. How are you doing?
18
00:01:08.080 --> 00:01:09.840
I'm great, thank you. Thanks for having me.
19
00:01:10.080 --> 00:01:12.960
How was the holidays? Did you manage to take some time out for yourself?
20
00:01:13.240 --> 00:01:17.080
I did, and I also got to take my kids to India for the first time.
21
00:01:17.140 --> 00:01:17.470
Oh, wow.
22
00:01:17.540 --> 00:01:21.500
And people ask me how the trip was, and I say magical is how
23
00:01:21.580 --> 00:01:22.710
I describe it. So, yeah.
24
00:01:22.720 --> 00:01:24.740
What would you say is your favorite
25
00:01:25.740 --> 00:01:27.960
memory from the trip that's going to stay with you?
26
00:01:28.800 --> 00:01:30.380
Oh, this is emotional. But,
27
00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:35.560
my husband's biological mother passed away when he was four
28
00:01:35.580 --> 00:01:36.240
years old,
29
00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:38.320
and our daughter,
30
00:01:39.960 --> 00:01:41.870
part of her name is named after-
31
00:01:41.930 --> 00:01:41.930
Oh
32
00:01:41.980 --> 00:01:45.960
... his biological mom. And we went to see his biological mom's
33
00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:46.480
sister.
34
00:01:47.160 --> 00:01:47.380
Oh, wow.
35
00:01:47.540 --> 00:01:51.520
And meeting her, it was my first time meeting her, it was my daughter's first time
36
00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:54.930
meeting her, and it was an amazing
37
00:01:54.980 --> 00:01:58.490
experience to just see the connection between my daughter and
38
00:01:58.540 --> 00:01:59.540
her
39
00:02:00.940 --> 00:02:01.560
great aunt,
40
00:02:02.800 --> 00:02:05.300
and how many stories came up about my
41
00:02:06.140 --> 00:02:09.700
husband's biological mom, and how my daughter and her were
42
00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:11.030
similar. Like their-
43
00:02:11.060 --> 00:02:11.170
Wow
44
00:02:11.170 --> 00:02:13.680
... features are similar, their mannerisms are similar.
45
00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:18.120
And it's hard to get that when you don't meet
46
00:02:18.160 --> 00:02:21.980
people who know that person. And so to just have that
47
00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.510
experience was pretty magical.
48
00:02:23.530 --> 00:02:26.960
Amazing. Well, that is truly a moment to cherish,
49
00:02:27.600 --> 00:02:27.740
right?
50
00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:27.960
Yeah.
51
00:02:28.020 --> 00:02:29.780
That will stick with you. Thanks for sharing that.
52
00:02:30.130 --> 00:02:32.200
Yeah. And the power of human connection.
53
00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:36.220
I think it's just a prime example of you can
54
00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:38.240
FaceTime, you can
55
00:02:39.340 --> 00:02:39.740
meet
56
00:02:40.620 --> 00:02:44.609
people digitally, but there's just something about the power of being in
57
00:02:44.700 --> 00:02:46.500
person that is different.
58
00:02:47.020 --> 00:02:50.920
No, we always talk about we can hybrid, and we can do this, and we can
59
00:02:50.970 --> 00:02:54.380
do that. But there's something that you can't even put words
60
00:02:54.440 --> 00:02:58.380
to when the team-- Or even from
61
00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:02.340
a team level, when I'm in the room with the creative team, there's
62
00:03:02.380 --> 00:03:06.240
just sort of this spark there. And then similar in moments like
63
00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:10.200
you just described. There's no
64
00:03:10.260 --> 00:03:14.140
framework you can put in place to recreate that virtually.
65
00:03:14.420 --> 00:03:16.359
Some things need to be done in person.
66
00:03:17.180 --> 00:03:18.840
Yeah. I totally agree with you.
67
00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:23.000
Yeah. And I feel like there's a physical energy exchange
68
00:03:23.720 --> 00:03:25.190
that takes place that sticks
69
00:03:26.160 --> 00:03:28.240
with you. I can't explain it. I don't have the words.
70
00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:29.460
To put-
71
00:03:29.600 --> 00:03:29.609
I-
72
00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:30.660
Yeah.
73
00:03:30.760 --> 00:03:34.540
I don't either, but I know there's studies about what hugging does to your blood
74
00:03:34.600 --> 00:03:36.049
pressure or what it does-
75
00:03:36.260 --> 00:03:36.320
Yes
76
00:03:36.329 --> 00:03:40.030
... for anxiety, and I liken this to that, which is there's
77
00:03:40.060 --> 00:03:43.950
something about in-person human connection that is really
78
00:03:43.980 --> 00:03:47.780
good for driving your endorphins, and is also
79
00:03:47.820 --> 00:03:51.640
really good for helping to calm you, I think, in certain situations.
80
00:03:51.690 --> 00:03:52.420
And so I agree with you.
81
00:03:52.860 --> 00:03:52.960
Yeah.
82
00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:54.560
It's hard to replace that.
83
00:03:54.980 --> 00:03:58.280
I make the joke sometimes with my wife that when
84
00:03:59.820 --> 00:04:03.200
my daughter Robyn, she's seven, she's like, "Daddy, I want you to tuck me in
85
00:04:03.740 --> 00:04:05.920
and do a bedtime story."
86
00:04:07.320 --> 00:04:10.580
I cherish that the most because I feel like I'm getting the most out of it.
87
00:04:11.140 --> 00:04:14.920
I got advice from someone once, her
88
00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.180
kids are older now. It's probably one of the best piece of advice I got, and she
89
00:04:18.221 --> 00:04:18.620
was like,
90
00:04:20.140 --> 00:04:24.020
"Don't stop hugging your kids until your kids stop hugging you." Like
91
00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:25.420
when you go in for a hug-
92
00:04:25.780 --> 00:04:25.900
Mm
93
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:26.000
...
94
00:04:26.860 --> 00:04:30.100
let the hug last as long as your kid wants the hug to last.
95
00:04:30.900 --> 00:04:31.320
Mm.
96
00:04:31.780 --> 00:04:33.720
Yeah. If you haven't tried that,
97
00:04:34.760 --> 00:04:36.200
I would try it.
98
00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:40.620
It's something that I remind myself of and ensure to do.
99
00:04:40.670 --> 00:04:43.220
It's probably one of the best piece of advice I've gotten.
100
00:04:43.760 --> 00:04:46.520
Do you know what? It's so interesting you say that, because I think, I don't know
101
00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:48.400
why, I instinctively do that.
102
00:04:49.290 --> 00:04:49.290
Yeah.
103
00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:51.460
Robyn's always like, "All right, Daddy, that's enough."
104
00:04:52.940 --> 00:04:56.620
If it's up to me, I'm just going to hug until...
105
00:04:57.740 --> 00:04:58.560
Yeah, that's great.
106
00:04:58.740 --> 00:04:58.820
Right.
107
00:04:58.900 --> 00:04:59.260
It is.
108
00:04:59.320 --> 00:05:00.060
Yeah.
109
00:05:00.400 --> 00:05:00.580
Yeah.
110
00:05:00.860 --> 00:05:00.940
Yeah.
111
00:05:02.380 --> 00:05:05.980
It's very interesting. It's not something I necessarily thought about.
112
00:05:06.700 --> 00:05:10.600
I haven't really thought about it, and then hearing that from
113
00:05:10.640 --> 00:05:14.280
someone, and then catching yourself in moments where you're in a
114
00:05:14.320 --> 00:05:14.870
hurry and-
115
00:05:14.900 --> 00:05:16.180
Oh, now you recognize it as well
116
00:05:16.200 --> 00:05:19.200
... you want to like, yeah, dash off and you're just like, "Oh, no.
117
00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:21.200
These are cherished moments and
118
00:05:22.220 --> 00:05:25.300
they're going to go away at some point." Her point was that as your kids get older,
119
00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:26.460
getting hugs is harder.
120
00:05:28.280 --> 00:05:28.990
And so...
121
00:05:28.990 --> 00:05:31.040
And that's kind of why I'm trying to cherish it now, right?
122
00:05:31.090 --> 00:05:31.090
Yeah.
123
00:05:31.100 --> 00:05:31.400
Because I
124
00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:35.580
remember being a teenager and you want to
125
00:05:36.340 --> 00:05:39.590
avoid your parents at that point. Or not avoid them, but you're not
126
00:05:39.590 --> 00:05:41.540
saying-- Like last night, Robyn,
127
00:05:42.440 --> 00:05:44.930
I promise everyone listening, by the way, we will get into the podcast at some
128
00:05:44.940 --> 00:05:45.440
point.
129
00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:46.390
But
130
00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:50.900
Robyn woke up three times, and she had a nightmare last night.
131
00:05:51.380 --> 00:05:54.930
And she asked me to take her back to bed, and I'm just hugging her and to make sure
132
00:05:54.940 --> 00:05:57.780
she's okay. And then she came back like three times.
133
00:05:58.200 --> 00:06:01.640
But in the past, I used to get annoyed, and obviously I have to sleep.
134
00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:03.420
It was like 4:00 a.m. I got stuff to do.
135
00:06:03.500 --> 00:06:04.220
But now I'm like,
136
00:06:05.080 --> 00:06:06.210
she's not going to come to me-
137
00:06:07.584 --> 00:06:11.373
In five to 10 years from now,
138
00:06:11.704 --> 00:06:14.104
she's not going to be saying, "Hey, Daddy, can I come lay in the bed with you
139
00:06:14.164 --> 00:06:15.994
because I feel unsafe?" Right?
140
00:06:16.044 --> 00:06:16.144
Yeah.
141
00:06:16.304 --> 00:06:16.904
I hope she would-
142
00:06:16.974 --> 00:06:17.524
Good point
143
00:06:18.304 --> 00:06:22.144
... but she's not going to, right? So I'm like, now I kind of just
144
00:06:22.204 --> 00:06:24.964
have a different mindset of how I look at it.
145
00:06:25.044 --> 00:06:27.604
Yes, I'm tired, but she wants me to be there for her, so-
146
00:06:27.944 --> 00:06:28.044
Yeah
147
00:06:28.144 --> 00:06:29.284
... it's my job to be there for her.
148
00:06:30.204 --> 00:06:33.814
I think that's so helpful. My child also woke up three times, my two-year-old,
149
00:06:33.904 --> 00:06:35.034
three times last night-
150
00:06:35.824 --> 00:06:36.274
Okay
151
00:06:36.274 --> 00:06:40.104
... wailing, and it can be hard. It can be hard when
152
00:06:40.144 --> 00:06:42.474
you're working as much as you're working-
153
00:06:42.544 --> 00:06:42.584
Yeah
154
00:06:42.594 --> 00:06:44.864
... and you're trying to balance
155
00:06:45.784 --> 00:06:47.664
making sure you're present, and so it's good.
156
00:06:47.744 --> 00:06:51.644
I always love hearing other people's stories because it's just a good reminder of:
157
00:06:51.824 --> 00:06:54.144
What are your values? What kind of parent do you want to be?
158
00:06:54.984 --> 00:06:56.164
What's important to you?
159
00:06:57.324 --> 00:06:57.924
So yeah.
160
00:06:58.064 --> 00:06:59.964
Yeah. Perspective. It does go to-
161
00:07:00.064 --> 00:07:00.074
Yeah
162
00:07:00.084 --> 00:07:03.993
... a topic we were talking just before we hit record about it could
163
00:07:04.024 --> 00:07:07.304
be lonely at the top, and you said, as
164
00:07:07.424 --> 00:07:11.224
a first-time CEO, you may... And if you'd be open to sharing some of your
165
00:07:11.264 --> 00:07:12.264
experience, what that looks like.
166
00:07:12.283 --> 00:07:15.294
And we both then said, well, HR definitely knows something about that
167
00:07:16.764 --> 00:07:17.804
on their end.
168
00:07:18.744 --> 00:07:22.684
Yeah. I think about people always say the job of the CEO
169
00:07:22.704 --> 00:07:26.134
is lonely, and look, it is a very lonely job, but
170
00:07:26.324 --> 00:07:30.124
what I was saying to you is I think the job of the CHRO is
171
00:07:30.184 --> 00:07:34.134
even lonelier. And I spend a lot of time thinking about that because
172
00:07:34.164 --> 00:07:37.604
you are both managing... Your job is to be a good
173
00:07:37.644 --> 00:07:41.424
partner to the CEO. Your job is also to make
174
00:07:41.464 --> 00:07:44.884
sure that you can drive the business outcomes that are required, and that you can
175
00:07:44.924 --> 00:07:48.644
be a good partner to your peers. And so there are things you have to hold in
176
00:07:48.744 --> 00:07:52.624
confidence but move forward on. There are interactions
177
00:07:52.664 --> 00:07:56.324
that I might get to avoid that you don't get to avoid as the
178
00:07:56.364 --> 00:08:00.204
CHRO. And so yeah, I think it is probably the
179
00:08:00.264 --> 00:08:01.574
loneliest job, and
180
00:08:03.444 --> 00:08:06.464
I've spent a lot of time just thinking about that because every time I say this job
181
00:08:06.484 --> 00:08:09.344
of the CEO is lonely, I'm like, ah, but their job is lonelier.
182
00:08:09.964 --> 00:08:13.284
Yeah. But the point that we, I think, both made as well is also why it's important
183
00:08:13.324 --> 00:08:14.964
why we surround ourselves with our peers,
184
00:08:15.804 --> 00:08:15.913
right?
185
00:08:15.964 --> 00:08:17.603
That is absolutely correct, yeah.
186
00:08:17.804 --> 00:08:18.004
Yeah.
187
00:08:18.144 --> 00:08:21.984
I think you need to be able to learn from others, call on others
188
00:08:22.084 --> 00:08:25.224
when you're struggling, get advice from others on
189
00:08:25.624 --> 00:08:29.324
especially mistakes they've made so that you don't have to learn
190
00:08:29.384 --> 00:08:33.164
from those mistakes. Hopefully, you can learn from them and avoid some of those
191
00:08:33.204 --> 00:08:33.764
mistakes.
192
00:08:34.624 --> 00:08:36.105
Yeah, I totally agree with you, Chris.
193
00:08:36.424 --> 00:08:39.465
Yeah. Because I thought in the past, there was this sort of
194
00:08:40.064 --> 00:08:44.024
expectation that you're the CEO, of course, you know everything
195
00:08:44.144 --> 00:08:45.764
and have all the answers and
196
00:08:47.484 --> 00:08:51.114
can deal with the stress, and I struggled with that early on, and I still
197
00:08:51.164 --> 00:08:52.504
do, honestly.
198
00:08:53.484 --> 00:08:56.654
But leading with vulnerability
199
00:08:57.584 --> 00:09:01.284
has allowed me to build a way stronger connection with the team here, and
200
00:09:01.744 --> 00:09:04.924
everyone just being asking for help actually
201
00:09:05.804 --> 00:09:09.504
creates more trust, more output,
202
00:09:09.564 --> 00:09:12.964
actually, and more engagement in the team.
203
00:09:13.424 --> 00:09:17.304
And I was like, "Oh, wow, okay. I don't have to be the all-knowing
204
00:09:17.664 --> 00:09:21.444
CEO and have all the answers." But it took me a while to...
205
00:09:21.924 --> 00:09:24.154
Because in the companies I've worked at before, that's how I was led,
206
00:09:25.144 --> 00:09:26.784
and that was sort of the culture, if that makes sense.
207
00:09:27.284 --> 00:09:31.254
So I just followed what I knew, and I
208
00:09:31.384 --> 00:09:34.263
just realized, actually, no, Chris, you're actually becoming the bottleneck
209
00:09:35.224 --> 00:09:35.484
here-
210
00:09:35.544 --> 00:09:35.684
Yeah
211
00:09:36.004 --> 00:09:38.894
... by not asking for help. So yeah.
212
00:09:38.953 --> 00:09:42.704
I think that's right, and I think if you just think about the macro environment
213
00:09:42.724 --> 00:09:44.724
we're in, too, it's unprecedented.
214
00:09:44.784 --> 00:09:48.704
So the idea that someone would know all of the answers or
215
00:09:48.764 --> 00:09:50.844
know exactly what to do is just
216
00:09:52.304 --> 00:09:55.944
not possible. There are so many dynamics changing.
217
00:09:56.604 --> 00:10:00.264
AI is changing the
218
00:10:00.304 --> 00:10:03.724
landscape of the workforce and what is expected out of
219
00:10:03.784 --> 00:10:07.264
companies and CEOs. There are political dynamics that
220
00:10:07.784 --> 00:10:11.594
can be challenging. There are both geopolitical dynamics as
221
00:10:11.644 --> 00:10:15.004
well as domestic, at least in the US, dynamics that I think are
222
00:10:15.064 --> 00:10:15.704
challenging.
223
00:10:16.944 --> 00:10:20.874
There is a change in what the economy perceives as
224
00:10:20.944 --> 00:10:24.553
stable versus not stable. And so the notion that any
225
00:10:24.724 --> 00:10:28.704
one person would know or have all the answers,
226
00:10:28.824 --> 00:10:32.464
I think is unrealistic. And so I think figuring out what you do
227
00:10:32.484 --> 00:10:36.384
know and where you can contribute, and then what you don't know and where you
228
00:10:36.424 --> 00:10:40.114
can learn, I think is probably one of the best things any leader, I don't think
229
00:10:40.144 --> 00:10:43.444
it's just true for the CEO, but I think any leader can do.
230
00:10:43.764 --> 00:10:45.384
Yeah, I agree. Well, listen-
231
00:10:45.464 --> 00:10:45.474
Yeah
232
00:10:45.544 --> 00:10:47.864
... one of the things I'm really excited to talk to you about, and actually,
233
00:10:49.204 --> 00:10:52.354
our event that I mentioned, and we've got our IBM coming up in a couple of weeks,
234
00:10:52.384 --> 00:10:54.204
with 60 CHROs. This was on the agenda
235
00:10:55.104 --> 00:10:59.084
that came up with them. So when we spoke about workforce
236
00:10:59.164 --> 00:11:01.464
infrastructure needing to be overhauled-
237
00:11:02.144 --> 00:11:02.364
Yeah
238
00:11:02.424 --> 00:11:04.024
... that's one of the key themes, actually.
239
00:11:05.244 --> 00:11:07.104
Then we obviously break that down into quite a few areas.
240
00:11:07.144 --> 00:11:09.394
So I'd love to start there and
241
00:11:10.444 --> 00:11:14.274
just hear your firstly your overall thoughts, and then we can jump into some of the
242
00:11:14.304 --> 00:11:14.684
detail.
243
00:11:15.544 --> 00:11:19.184
Yeah. I'm happy to do that. One of the most common questions I get
244
00:11:19.304 --> 00:11:23.154
asked, which if you would've asked me 20 years ago would I be getting asked this
245
00:11:23.184 --> 00:11:26.904
question, I'm not sure I would've thought so,
246
00:11:26.984 --> 00:11:30.924
is they come in two flavors today. They
247
00:11:30.934 --> 00:11:33.623
used to come in one flavor. Now they're coming in two flavors.
248
00:11:33.704 --> 00:11:35.123
So the first flavor is
249
00:11:36.004 --> 00:11:39.954
my kids getting ready to graduate from high school, and what should
250
00:11:39.984 --> 00:11:43.664
they do next? And that question happens on repeat.
251
00:11:44.464 --> 00:11:47.684
And has happened for a while on repeat, I would say the last three or four years.
252
00:11:48.524 --> 00:11:52.484
Interestingly, in the last six months, this second question has started to
253
00:11:52.524 --> 00:11:56.304
pop up from mid-career folks. I'm worried
254
00:11:56.364 --> 00:11:58.484
that automation is going to take my job.
255
00:11:58.544 --> 00:12:00.784
If you were in my shoes, what would you do now?
256
00:12:01.464 --> 00:12:05.324
And I think that is directly tied to how we think
257
00:12:05.404 --> 00:12:09.284
about the workforce, workforce transformation, and the
258
00:12:09.344 --> 00:12:11.864
responsibility, I think, of
259
00:12:12.524 --> 00:12:16.504
CHROs, and CEOs in particular, to help make sure
260
00:12:16.604 --> 00:12:20.484
that the economies around the world can transition to
261
00:12:20.524 --> 00:12:21.484
this future of work
262
00:12:22.744 --> 00:12:25.924
And I think from my perspective, there are a few critical things that have to come
263
00:12:25.944 --> 00:12:26.344
together.
264
00:12:27.204 --> 00:12:30.904
One is you need employers to think about what the
265
00:12:30.984 --> 00:12:33.134
future of their business is going to look like,
266
00:12:33.984 --> 00:12:37.874
what skill sets will be required, and what things
267
00:12:37.904 --> 00:12:41.464
will be important to their competitive advantage in that future.
268
00:12:43.144 --> 00:12:46.744
The second thing I think you need is a set
269
00:12:46.884 --> 00:12:48.944
of policy decisions,
270
00:12:50.024 --> 00:12:53.904
and the government, whether it's the state government, the local
271
00:12:53.964 --> 00:12:57.104
government, or the federal government, helping to better
272
00:12:57.244 --> 00:13:01.224
incentivize that employer population to
273
00:13:01.264 --> 00:13:04.874
think about the role that they play in helping to transition the
274
00:13:04.944 --> 00:13:05.504
economy.
275
00:13:06.384 --> 00:13:09.984
And then the third thing that you need is a robust set
276
00:13:10.124 --> 00:13:13.504
of different alternatives in terms of learning.
277
00:13:13.984 --> 00:13:17.014
You and I had this conversation when we were together around
278
00:13:17.924 --> 00:13:21.764
what your own path was and why you had to take that path and what it
279
00:13:21.844 --> 00:13:25.244
meant for you in terms of not actually going
280
00:13:25.844 --> 00:13:26.844
to college. And
281
00:13:28.504 --> 00:13:32.204
I think that is the future. There are many alternatives to how
282
00:13:32.264 --> 00:13:35.794
people can get a job, how they can continue to grow their
283
00:13:35.884 --> 00:13:39.084
careers, and I think that that means learning
284
00:13:39.144 --> 00:13:43.104
institutions have to evolve to meet the needs.
285
00:13:43.784 --> 00:13:47.634
So in order, those three stakeholders play a pretty critical
286
00:13:47.684 --> 00:13:51.434
role, and the only way that we're going to help enable the future of
287
00:13:51.484 --> 00:13:54.824
work in the right way is actually those three institutions
288
00:13:55.804 --> 00:13:59.724
coming together in a way that I haven't seen happen
289
00:13:59.764 --> 00:14:03.604
to date. And I think is required to ensure that we actually
290
00:14:03.644 --> 00:14:07.464
transition workers into this next era of the economy.
291
00:14:07.924 --> 00:14:11.424
Yeah. Wow. We could do a whole podcast just on this.
292
00:14:12.144 --> 00:14:12.584
Yes.
293
00:14:14.024 --> 00:14:14.164
Just
294
00:14:15.024 --> 00:14:16.004
on this alone.
295
00:14:16.384 --> 00:14:18.434
And obviously, I spend a lot of time thinking-
296
00:14:18.544 --> 00:14:18.824
Of course
297
00:14:18.834 --> 00:14:22.634
... because people have questions for me, and I want to give them practical,
298
00:14:22.744 --> 00:14:26.544
pragmatic answers. But also our business is focused around
299
00:14:26.564 --> 00:14:28.104
this topic, right, of how do you-
300
00:14:28.154 --> 00:14:28.154
Of course
301
00:14:28.154 --> 00:14:31.803
... make sure that the workforce is prepared for the future? Yeah.
302
00:14:31.864 --> 00:14:35.804
Yeah. One of the things I'm seeing happening right now, which
303
00:14:35.844 --> 00:14:36.964
is on the agenda is,
304
00:14:39.204 --> 00:14:41.464
fundamentally the way in which work is done,
305
00:14:42.544 --> 00:14:46.444
it's changed, but we're adding AI
306
00:14:46.504 --> 00:14:50.464
and technology to an outdated infrastructure and
307
00:14:50.504 --> 00:14:52.484
architecture and wondering
308
00:14:53.564 --> 00:14:56.764
why it's not working and why people are burning out and
309
00:14:57.424 --> 00:14:59.904
we need a complete overhaul,
310
00:15:00.764 --> 00:15:03.604
right? But who's leading that,
311
00:15:04.204 --> 00:15:08.084
and what do you see as the biggest challenges that this is
312
00:15:08.104 --> 00:15:09.704
going to present organizations?
313
00:15:11.084 --> 00:15:13.584
Yeah. I think from a leading perspective,
314
00:15:15.144 --> 00:15:19.094
you do need a coalition. I think about this as
315
00:15:19.164 --> 00:15:20.444
a collective action problem.
316
00:15:20.474 --> 00:15:20.474
Sure.
317
00:15:20.764 --> 00:15:22.553
I talk about it as a collective action problem.
318
00:15:23.104 --> 00:15:26.764
And you do see employers who are seeing the
319
00:15:26.824 --> 00:15:30.734
future, interested in staying ahead, thinking about their competitive
320
00:15:30.764 --> 00:15:33.914
differentiators, and then therefore leaning into these
321
00:15:33.924 --> 00:15:37.904
conversations. At least in the United
322
00:15:37.964 --> 00:15:41.944
States, you see places where governors are
323
00:15:41.984 --> 00:15:45.924
leaning into the conversation in terms of trying to figure out, what
324
00:15:46.024 --> 00:15:50.004
can I be doing to prepare my own citizens and constituents for the
325
00:15:50.024 --> 00:15:52.784
future of work? You see organizations like Guild
326
00:15:52.864 --> 00:15:56.064
convening learning institutions, employers,
327
00:15:57.224 --> 00:16:00.273
the federal government, or the state and local government.
328
00:16:00.384 --> 00:16:03.924
And it's not because we have all the answers, it's because we believe it's a
329
00:16:03.964 --> 00:16:07.694
collective action problem. And without getting out on the table
330
00:16:07.824 --> 00:16:11.814
what the hurdles are on each side, it's really hard to figure out how
331
00:16:11.844 --> 00:16:14.884
to re-orchestrate. We're talking about a system re-orchestration.
332
00:16:15.024 --> 00:16:15.104
Yeah.
333
00:16:15.634 --> 00:16:18.944
And it needs to happen on a large scale.
334
00:16:19.064 --> 00:16:22.864
I think one of the challenges is trying to tackle
335
00:16:22.924 --> 00:16:26.864
something that's this big on that big of a scale, it
336
00:16:26.964 --> 00:16:28.164
can be paralyzing.
337
00:16:29.504 --> 00:16:32.624
I think there's a lot of different opinions on what the right answer is.
338
00:16:33.044 --> 00:16:36.824
And so one of the approaches we've taken is, okay, how do we put
339
00:16:36.904 --> 00:16:40.264
one foot in front of the other and start to build proof points of what different
340
00:16:40.304 --> 00:16:43.884
models can look like? How do you bring learning institutions and employers
341
00:16:43.903 --> 00:16:47.834
together and just get them in a room and be like, what is the future of
342
00:16:47.864 --> 00:16:50.924
what this thing looks like? And what's the right
343
00:16:51.464 --> 00:16:55.364
content that is required or the right program that is required
344
00:16:55.424 --> 00:16:58.664
in order to help this happen? And so I do think
345
00:16:59.564 --> 00:17:03.144
looking at the broader picture of there's this large-scale re-orchestration that
346
00:17:03.164 --> 00:17:05.904
needs to happen is really important so you know where you're going.
347
00:17:06.545 --> 00:17:10.484
And then just like you do, you set a strategy or a vision, and then just like you
348
00:17:10.524 --> 00:17:13.604
do, you then have to be like, great, what are the pragmatic steps to executing
349
00:17:13.664 --> 00:17:17.545
against that? And what are the proof points I can put on the board to
350
00:17:17.585 --> 00:17:21.285
build more and more collective action so that more
351
00:17:21.305 --> 00:17:25.184
employers are willing to participate, so that more parts of the
352
00:17:25.224 --> 00:17:28.804
government are willing to participate, and so that more learning institutions are
353
00:17:28.824 --> 00:17:30.584
willing to participate in this process?
354
00:17:31.064 --> 00:17:31.244
Yeah.
355
00:17:32.864 --> 00:17:35.074
What is causing that fragmentation?
356
00:17:35.304 --> 00:17:35.524
Because I
357
00:17:36.564 --> 00:17:40.354
don't have the data and I'm not as close as you are, but from an outside
358
00:17:40.384 --> 00:17:42.484
view, it feels like it's becoming more fragmented.
359
00:17:45.004 --> 00:17:48.184
I think there are a few things. One is AI is
360
00:17:48.764 --> 00:17:52.124
rapidly changing and evolving jobs. It is happening.
361
00:17:52.504 --> 00:17:56.364
I see it inside of Guild, what models could do three months ago versus what they
362
00:17:56.404 --> 00:17:56.724
can do-
363
00:17:58.024 --> 00:17:58.034
Yeah
364
00:17:58.034 --> 00:18:01.884
... today. They're changing quite rapidly, and so even for my own job as the
365
00:18:01.944 --> 00:18:02.444
CEO,
366
00:18:03.404 --> 00:18:07.224
what I could have done or what I would have trusted an LLM to
367
00:18:07.284 --> 00:18:10.984
do a few months ago versus what I trust it to do now has
368
00:18:11.024 --> 00:18:14.864
evolved relatively quickly, and so the pace of change is more
369
00:18:14.884 --> 00:18:18.504
rapid than we have seen before. The second is,
370
00:18:19.444 --> 00:18:23.124
I think it's hard for people to act
371
00:18:23.224 --> 00:18:23.824
when the
372
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:25.700
... future is murky.
373
00:18:26.560 --> 00:18:30.500
If you go ask any economist what are the jobs that are going to be available in the
374
00:18:30.540 --> 00:18:34.500
future, everyone is like, "We don't know." And so then you start to be like, "Well,
375
00:18:34.580 --> 00:18:36.940
I don't know." And I think there are two paths you could take.
376
00:18:37.060 --> 00:18:40.900
I don't know, and therefore I'm not going to do anything, or I don't
377
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.800
know, but let me trust my intuition on what will matter
378
00:18:44.860 --> 00:18:48.700
most about what humans are good at, and then start to double down
379
00:18:48.760 --> 00:18:52.680
on those things. And you do see more risk-prone, more
380
00:18:52.820 --> 00:18:56.090
entrepreneurial, more innovative CHROs and
381
00:18:56.180 --> 00:18:59.980
CEOs taking that second path, but that's not
382
00:19:00.100 --> 00:19:03.880
always the case. I think if they don't have the freedom to think about things in
383
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.990
that way, if their business dynamics don't allow them-
384
00:19:07.050 --> 00:19:07.050
Yeah
385
00:19:07.050 --> 00:19:10.339
... to take those types of risks, I think again, it's paralyzing.
386
00:19:10.940 --> 00:19:13.040
Yeah. What do you think is the
387
00:19:14.800 --> 00:19:17.760
risk for organizations that don't do this?
388
00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:24.520
I think you get left behind. We spend a lot of time talking
389
00:19:24.600 --> 00:19:28.240
about companies that are AI
390
00:19:28.340 --> 00:19:31.980
native versus companies that are not AI native.
391
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:36.580
And you see it show up in headlines, things like, "SaaS is dead," and you're
392
00:19:36.590 --> 00:19:39.910
like, "Well, it's not actually dead." But yes, you can use that to
393
00:19:40.120 --> 00:19:43.930
attract the reader. And then you look at the market in terms of what's
394
00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:46.420
happening with SaaS, software as a service, companies-
395
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:46.750
Yeah
396
00:19:46.750 --> 00:19:50.040
... which CHROs buy a lot of the products in that space.
397
00:19:50.860 --> 00:19:53.860
And the reality is you have two choices.
398
00:19:53.980 --> 00:19:57.730
You either stay a legacy business and then slowly your
399
00:19:57.800 --> 00:20:01.500
legacy dies because you're not able to make that leap, or you're an
400
00:20:01.580 --> 00:20:05.020
AI native business and you want to figure out how to scale relatively quickly.
401
00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:09.490
Or you sit in the middle of that, and you have to figure out how to make that
402
00:20:09.520 --> 00:20:13.320
transformation from being a legacy player to being an
403
00:20:13.380 --> 00:20:17.360
AI native player. And 95% of companies
404
00:20:17.420 --> 00:20:18.720
have to go through that leap.
405
00:20:19.040 --> 00:20:19.260
Mm.
406
00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:22.960
And if you do not go through that leap, I think you risk losing your
407
00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:26.040
legacy. I think you risk dying on the vine.
408
00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:28.180
I think you risk stunting your growth.
409
00:20:28.340 --> 00:20:32.330
I think you risk not being able to keep up with the innovation that is
410
00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.199
happening and what your customers will expect of you in the future.
411
00:20:35.340 --> 00:20:37.980
Yeah. I think we're seeing it. We're seeing a lot of
412
00:20:38.620 --> 00:20:39.500
acquisitions
413
00:20:40.520 --> 00:20:42.400
taking place right now
414
00:20:43.540 --> 00:20:46.100
in the HR and learning space
415
00:20:47.060 --> 00:20:50.080
as well, because a lot of those companies are being disrupted or
416
00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:55.000
they can leapfrog via acquiring an AI native company-
417
00:20:55.620 --> 00:20:55.840
Yeah
418
00:20:55.860 --> 00:20:59.180
... as opposed to the, "Hey, we're going to spend five years trying to
419
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:02.470
move this huge giant that we've built-"
420
00:21:02.890 --> 00:21:02.890
Yeah
421
00:21:02.890 --> 00:21:06.269
... as well. And a lot of consolidation
422
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.780
as well, and I think I've never seen as much in the last
423
00:21:12.020 --> 00:21:14.080
year and a half than I have in the past in
424
00:21:15.080 --> 00:21:18.480
HR, like left, right, and center. Companies are being inquired,
425
00:21:18.760 --> 00:21:22.040
companies coming together. I'm like, "Whoa." Do you think that's probably a driver
426
00:21:22.840 --> 00:21:23.150
of that?
427
00:21:23.340 --> 00:21:26.660
I think it's a driver based on customer need, actually.
428
00:21:26.810 --> 00:21:30.100
I think customers are like, "I can't have point solutions anymore.
429
00:21:30.340 --> 00:21:34.240
It's really hard to operate. And so either I want a platform
430
00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:38.600
or I need a marketplace." Those are kind of the two options on the
431
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.030
table because they're getting pressured from their
432
00:21:42.080 --> 00:21:45.960
CFO in some cases, and in other cases, it's just unwieldy
433
00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:49.080
to manage so many different point solutions.
434
00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:49.380
Yeah.
435
00:21:49.410 --> 00:21:53.170
And so I do think you're seeing consolidation happen from that
436
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:56.880
perspective. I think you're seeing consolidation happen because you also talked
437
00:21:56.940 --> 00:21:59.440
about this concept. In product, we talk about
438
00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:04.400
build, buy or partner, and you're seeing companies
439
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:05.140
have to go through-
440
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:05.170
Yeah
441
00:22:05.170 --> 00:22:08.460
... that exercise and figure out, "Am I going to build it myself?
442
00:22:08.500 --> 00:22:12.160
Okay, if I build it myself, I need to go find the talent that I maybe not have
443
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.980
today, or I need to upskill the talent I have today in order to
444
00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:18.760
actually build the future." Partner is
445
00:22:20.100 --> 00:22:24.040
really off the table in this case because then you are not really becoming AI
446
00:22:24.120 --> 00:22:27.420
native yourself, or buy is the third option.
447
00:22:27.450 --> 00:22:31.340
And so Chris, you are seeing places where early
448
00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:34.160
AI native companies are getting a lot of traction.
449
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.160
You're seeing legacy players swoop in
450
00:22:37.040 --> 00:22:40.920
and try and acquire them, and I think the real test will be can
451
00:22:40.959 --> 00:22:44.250
those companies keep innovating at the pace that they were innovating
452
00:22:44.340 --> 00:22:47.960
at inside of these larger organizations.
453
00:22:48.030 --> 00:22:48.030
Yeah.
454
00:22:48.030 --> 00:22:49.500
And I think only time will tell.
455
00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:53.800
Yeah. I've never shared it publicly, but
456
00:22:54.100 --> 00:22:57.980
we had that early on with Atlas, where we had a few companies come in
457
00:22:58.080 --> 00:23:01.520
early to swoop in, and one of the reasons we
458
00:23:01.760 --> 00:23:05.720
decided not to sell or be acquired is that I felt
459
00:23:05.760 --> 00:23:06.730
exactly what you just said,
460
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:10.680
because we were innovating so fast,
461
00:23:11.860 --> 00:23:15.260
bringing on board customers, and I was like, "If we move into this big giant of a
462
00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:19.400
organization..." I've seen it happen because I interview these companies every
463
00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:23.140
day. So I get to talk to those companies and work with those
464
00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:26.960
leaders and those other HR tech companies, so I know
465
00:23:27.020 --> 00:23:29.140
exactly what happens after they're acquired.
466
00:23:29.220 --> 00:23:32.960
And I'm like, "We decided that no, now is probably not the
467
00:23:33.020 --> 00:23:36.560
time. Let's keep pushing forward and shoot for the moon." And
468
00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:39.860
yeah, I think that's a huge...
469
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:44.820
I've obviously interviewed CHROs every week,
470
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.300
and I've never heard on so many episodes or off camera
471
00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:52.960
so many companies consolidating their HR tech stack like this.
472
00:23:53.800 --> 00:23:54.320
Yeah.
473
00:23:54.360 --> 00:23:57.480
Nickle was famous for talking about how IBM's gone from
474
00:23:57.520 --> 00:24:00.740
nearly 1,000 different providers to
475
00:24:00.820 --> 00:24:01.750
100.
476
00:24:02.840 --> 00:24:03.280
Yeah.
477
00:24:03.360 --> 00:24:03.840
It's insane.
478
00:24:05.320 --> 00:24:09.150
We're seeing it. In some ways, for our business,
479
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.940
it's really great because we run a marketplace.
480
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:12.160
Yes.
481
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:16.040
And people don't want a bunch of vendors, and we think of ourselves
482
00:24:16.560 --> 00:24:18.820
and the technology that we built as a platform.
483
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.880
And so when you can combine those two things together, from our
484
00:24:22.980 --> 00:24:26.880
vantage point, it's great because people, they try things out.
485
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:30.660
They actually like those things. They're like, "I just cannot continue to manage
486
00:24:30.760 --> 00:24:34.280
them on a one-off basis." And so I
487
00:24:34.320 --> 00:24:38.220
think that creates an interesting dynamic and a great dynamic for us as a
488
00:24:38.300 --> 00:24:42.293
business. It also is hard. It's really hard if you're
489
00:24:42.293 --> 00:24:46.174
a point solution to figure out how you're going to maintain the traction
490
00:24:46.244 --> 00:24:47.024
that you have.
491
00:24:48.844 --> 00:24:52.544
And I think the early traction is really great, and then the question
492
00:24:52.604 --> 00:24:55.584
becomes great. As consolidation happens, how are you going to
493
00:24:55.604 --> 00:24:59.374
differentiate yourself and maintain that?
494
00:24:59.404 --> 00:25:02.944
Or are you going to get put in the same bucket as every other point
495
00:25:03.004 --> 00:25:03.644
solution
496
00:25:04.484 --> 00:25:08.224
that is out there? And so, yeah, I think that trend is
497
00:25:08.284 --> 00:25:11.744
only going to increase over time. I also think there are
498
00:25:11.783 --> 00:25:14.984
places where people have bought off-the-shelf
499
00:25:15.264 --> 00:25:18.724
solutions, but they need something really customized or
500
00:25:18.804 --> 00:25:22.684
configurable, and they aren't able to do that with
501
00:25:22.724 --> 00:25:26.524
the off-the-shelf technology. And so now they're trying to figure out, okay,
502
00:25:26.644 --> 00:25:29.444
can someone vibe code this, and then can we productionize it?
503
00:25:30.664 --> 00:25:33.774
Can we build some of these bespoke things that we need internally?
504
00:25:34.144 --> 00:25:36.504
And so I think that is something else to watch out for.
505
00:25:37.364 --> 00:25:40.404
Isn't it crazy, by the way, talking about the half-life of skills, that we mention
506
00:25:40.414 --> 00:25:43.624
things like vibe code, and that didn't even
507
00:25:44.964 --> 00:25:48.824
a year ago, two years ago, it wasn't even a skill or something we
508
00:25:48.884 --> 00:25:52.404
even spoke about, and now we just use
509
00:25:52.464 --> 00:25:53.244
it like
510
00:25:54.384 --> 00:25:56.124
every day. It's so interesting.
511
00:25:56.144 --> 00:25:59.964
I saw a job posting yesterday that I thought was really cool,
512
00:26:00.904 --> 00:26:04.184
which was someone hiring for a full-time vibe coder.
513
00:26:04.684 --> 00:26:05.144
Nice.
514
00:26:06.744 --> 00:26:10.724
I've seen people talk about vibe coding to augment their
515
00:26:10.784 --> 00:26:14.154
own work, but actually hiring full-time vibe coders-
516
00:26:14.304 --> 00:26:14.394
Yeah
517
00:26:14.394 --> 00:26:14.614
... I haven't seen.
518
00:26:16.244 --> 00:26:20.214
And it's very interesting. So inside of our own business, we're
519
00:26:20.344 --> 00:26:23.924
a technology company, so we have a lot of people who are experimenting with
520
00:26:23.964 --> 00:26:26.744
AI and doing pretty interesting things with it.
521
00:26:26.804 --> 00:26:30.744
And we have tools that we use both internally and externally that
522
00:26:30.764 --> 00:26:34.384
have been vibe coded. We then put them into production.
523
00:26:35.584 --> 00:26:37.964
There are two things that I think are really interesting.
524
00:26:38.404 --> 00:26:42.344
One is you have to pair the vibe coder with someone who's going to productionize.
525
00:26:42.424 --> 00:26:43.524
We're operating-
526
00:26:43.544 --> 00:26:43.684
Okay. Nice
527
00:26:43.704 --> 00:26:45.614
... at scale, right? We have millions of
528
00:26:46.484 --> 00:26:50.244
members who have access to Guild, and so you can't just be
529
00:26:50.364 --> 00:26:53.444
like, "Great, we vibe coded it. Everything's good." It has to actually be
530
00:26:53.544 --> 00:26:57.453
scalable. And so you have to pair this person with someone
531
00:26:57.504 --> 00:27:00.724
who knows how to create scaled systems.
532
00:27:00.754 --> 00:27:02.784
So that's been an interesting pairing.
533
00:27:03.664 --> 00:27:07.484
The other really interesting that's happened is, I think sometimes people who
534
00:27:07.524 --> 00:27:11.084
build things are, especially if you're vibe coding, you're like, "Cool.
535
00:27:11.424 --> 00:27:15.264
I'm done." Guess what? That technology has to be maintained, just like
536
00:27:15.304 --> 00:27:17.084
everything else has to be maintained.
537
00:27:17.414 --> 00:27:21.194
And so who owns responsibility around maintaining
538
00:27:21.244 --> 00:27:24.504
that tool you built or the agent that got created?
539
00:27:24.524 --> 00:27:28.303
And what happens when that employee leaves? Who manages the agent?
540
00:27:28.344 --> 00:27:29.764
Who does it get passed on to?
541
00:27:30.764 --> 00:27:33.004
Who's going to be in charge of maintaining that thing?
542
00:27:33.054 --> 00:27:36.724
And what happens if the next person doesn't have the skill level of the
543
00:27:36.824 --> 00:27:40.784
prior person? I think we're headed into a very fascinating era
544
00:27:40.944 --> 00:27:44.704
on organizational design succession planning because it's
545
00:27:44.744 --> 00:27:46.164
not succession of just a-
546
00:27:46.524 --> 00:27:46.764
No
547
00:27:46.964 --> 00:27:48.863
... employee, it's succession of an agent.
548
00:27:49.764 --> 00:27:53.704
And so the geeky, nerdy side of me is very
549
00:27:53.724 --> 00:27:54.334
excited.
550
00:27:54.584 --> 00:27:54.744
Yeah.
551
00:27:54.784 --> 00:27:58.554
The organizational theory and design side of me is
552
00:27:58.584 --> 00:28:00.264
nervous because I think we have a lot of work to do.
553
00:28:01.104 --> 00:28:05.024
And again, the way
554
00:28:05.144 --> 00:28:08.104
that the current operating models are just not designed for that.
555
00:28:09.044 --> 00:28:09.424
They're not.
556
00:28:09.524 --> 00:28:13.304
It doesn't work. You can't throw AI on top of that and
557
00:28:13.404 --> 00:28:17.393
hope that it works. And let's be honest, the technology's half the battle, less
558
00:28:17.484 --> 00:28:17.944
than half.
559
00:28:18.534 --> 00:28:18.534
Yeah.
560
00:28:18.564 --> 00:28:22.004
It's the actual, the culture shift, the transformation, the adoption.
561
00:28:22.624 --> 00:28:26.224
That's the real ongoing, and there's no end date for that.
562
00:28:26.664 --> 00:28:27.784
That's continuous.
563
00:28:28.104 --> 00:28:31.084
Oh, I totally agree with you. We've had employers approach us.
564
00:28:31.164 --> 00:28:33.244
It's been really fun to watch in some ways.
565
00:28:33.304 --> 00:28:34.884
We've had employers approach us who are like,
566
00:28:35.724 --> 00:28:38.064
"We have so many tools. We don't need any more tools.
567
00:28:38.384 --> 00:28:40.393
Our actual problem is behavior change-"
568
00:28:40.444 --> 00:28:40.694
Yeah. Of course
569
00:28:40.724 --> 00:28:42.754
... "and driving adoption."
570
00:28:43.944 --> 00:28:47.064
And it's been fun. We have an academy product that we use that's specifically
571
00:28:47.084 --> 00:28:50.844
designed for behavior change. And how do you drive a
572
00:28:51.304 --> 00:28:54.004
transformation, in this case, an AI transformation.
573
00:28:54.464 --> 00:28:57.324
It could be a cultural transformation, a behavior transformation.
574
00:28:58.344 --> 00:29:01.724
It's been interesting to see employers
575
00:29:02.224 --> 00:29:04.704
say, "My problem is actually not tools.
576
00:29:05.964 --> 00:29:07.584
We'll let anyone use anything.
577
00:29:08.464 --> 00:29:12.144
My issue is actual behavior change,
578
00:29:12.464 --> 00:29:15.874
knowledge sharing, understanding of best use cases,
579
00:29:16.484 --> 00:29:20.124
context setting, and connecting the
580
00:29:20.224 --> 00:29:20.704
dots."
581
00:29:21.864 --> 00:29:25.664
It's great. That's a great case for human
582
00:29:25.704 --> 00:29:26.174
beings-
583
00:29:26.424 --> 00:29:26.494
Mm-hmm
584
00:29:26.564 --> 00:29:30.144
... and where they could spend time and energy, and how they can augment this
585
00:29:30.184 --> 00:29:34.044
technology in the right way. And so how do you drive that at rapid scale,
586
00:29:34.104 --> 00:29:37.444
and how do you get more people on board, and how do you show proof points so that
587
00:29:37.504 --> 00:29:41.424
other people who are late adopters of technology want to get on board, I
588
00:29:41.444 --> 00:29:44.684
think is a tricky thing that employers are going through right now.
589
00:29:45.084 --> 00:29:48.964
Yeah. It's really interesting that now with AI, it's
590
00:29:49.004 --> 00:29:51.244
very rarely a technical issue.
591
00:29:52.084 --> 00:29:52.204
Yeah.
592
00:29:54.484 --> 00:29:57.754
Even our engineers, like Marvin, our chief technology officer,
593
00:29:58.124 --> 00:30:02.004
his answer every time is, "Can we do this?" He's like, "Yes, but at
594
00:30:02.084 --> 00:30:02.684
what cost?"
595
00:30:03.334 --> 00:30:03.484
Yeah.
596
00:30:04.244 --> 00:30:05.464
And I don't mean financial.
597
00:30:06.344 --> 00:30:06.464
Yeah.
598
00:30:06.864 --> 00:30:09.563
He's like, "Yeah, of course." But then what does that mean for our customers?
599
00:30:09.604 --> 00:30:11.524
What does that mean for onboarding?
600
00:30:11.564 --> 00:30:15.504
I'm very lucky that he's an engineer
601
00:30:15.564 --> 00:30:16.384
that thinks that way.
602
00:30:17.184 --> 00:30:17.284
Yeah.
603
00:30:17.444 --> 00:30:20.924
And he challenges us because it's very rarely the technology.
604
00:30:22.004 --> 00:30:22.544
Yeah.
605
00:30:23.084 --> 00:30:23.254
Yeah.
606
00:30:23.364 --> 00:30:26.624
I think that dot connection and that context that you just talked about,
607
00:30:27.364 --> 00:30:28.044
and the judgment-
608
00:30:28.504 --> 00:30:28.554
Yeah
609
00:30:28.604 --> 00:30:32.344
... that you described that Marvin has, I think those are going to become
610
00:30:32.404 --> 00:30:34.384
even more important
611
00:30:35.204 --> 00:30:39.084
as time goes on because it's not about can you do this
612
00:30:39.164 --> 00:30:43.124
thing or not do this thing. It's about is this the right time to do
613
00:30:43.164 --> 00:30:43.764
this thing?
614
00:30:44.564 --> 00:30:46.784
What are the ramifications of doing this thing?
615
00:30:47.284 --> 00:30:50.514
And then how are we going to scale the thing if we do the thing- ...
616
00:30:50.584 --> 00:30:53.414
in a way that keeps up with what our customers are asking for?
617
00:30:53.724 --> 00:30:54.064
Yeah.
618
00:30:54.084 --> 00:30:54.204
Yeah.
619
00:30:54.564 --> 00:30:58.184
That is one of my concerns, though, with AI, is that it kind of
620
00:30:58.224 --> 00:30:59.804
removes a lot of the critical thinking.
621
00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:04.560
Because it kind of just serves knowledge, not capability. Right?
622
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:08.580
So we have access, I sort of feel like people take for
623
00:31:08.620 --> 00:31:11.280
granted, to the entire world's knowledge
624
00:31:12.500 --> 00:31:16.380
at our fingertips. Sometimes I think people just take AI for
625
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:18.500
granted. I'm like, "Do you know how amazing
626
00:31:19.840 --> 00:31:23.180
that is that we can literally ask anything and it's right
627
00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:27.210
there?" But because you get it so quickly and you'll not have it, and we all
628
00:31:27.220 --> 00:31:30.620
know what it's like before AI to start with a blank piece of paper
629
00:31:31.280 --> 00:31:34.700
and really have to think through the problem
630
00:31:35.260 --> 00:31:37.760
and all of the different dots around.
631
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:39.110
And that's a
632
00:31:40.040 --> 00:31:44.020
skill that I'm seeing even my team, I'm like: Don't just be lazy
633
00:31:44.060 --> 00:31:45.980
and go straight to AI for everything.
634
00:31:46.560 --> 00:31:50.410
I want you to actually think about what are we solving for, what
635
00:31:50.780 --> 00:31:52.780
are the pieces of the puzzle, what are the impacts?
636
00:31:52.800 --> 00:31:56.480
And you just going to AI and going boom, boom, boom, boom, and getting an answer is
637
00:31:56.500 --> 00:31:59.940
not-- And I see that mistakes happening and showing up later on.
638
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:03.620
So it's quite an interesting one. The creativity,
639
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:08.700
critical thinking,
640
00:32:09.560 --> 00:32:13.480
all of those power skills are going to be the most--
641
00:32:13.700 --> 00:32:15.560
Curiosity is the word I was looking for.
642
00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:16.150
Yeah.
643
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:19.660
Curiosity are going to be the things that
644
00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:22.700
really we need to focus on in the future, in my opinion.
645
00:32:23.620 --> 00:32:27.410
I think that's right. I would challenge you to think about
646
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.100
with your own work with AI,
647
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.700
do you feel like you produce a better product when you take a little bit of time to
648
00:32:36.080 --> 00:32:39.440
think for yourself before you prompt AI to do
649
00:32:39.460 --> 00:32:43.280
something? Or do you get a better product when you just ask
650
00:32:43.320 --> 00:32:44.210
it for the answer?
651
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.340
So I think I can answer that a few different ways.
652
00:32:47.860 --> 00:32:51.820
One of the things that I've done now is change
653
00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:52.480
the way I prompt.
654
00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:57.320
So let me give you an example. In the past, I would use
655
00:32:57.360 --> 00:33:00.300
ChatGPT like Google and just ask a question, right?
656
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:04.880
Whereas now I'll ask questions like, "What haven't I asked you that I should
657
00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:05.140
have?"
658
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:08.640
"What haven't I thought about?"
659
00:33:10.460 --> 00:33:14.240
I'll ask questions like that to get a diversity of perspective
660
00:33:14.300 --> 00:33:18.160
and feedback and thoughts as opposed to
661
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:19.600
AI holding up a mirror.
662
00:33:20.580 --> 00:33:20.700
Yeah.
663
00:33:21.500 --> 00:33:23.100
If that makes sense.
664
00:33:23.170 --> 00:33:24.060
That makes a lot of sense.
665
00:33:24.140 --> 00:33:24.320
Right?
666
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:24.580
Yeah.
667
00:33:24.660 --> 00:33:27.740
Because when you, in the past, you didn't have
668
00:33:28.600 --> 00:33:31.880
AI, you had to do research. You found different articles, different perspectives,
669
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:35.620
and diversity of thought and different opinions and solutions, right?
670
00:33:36.080 --> 00:33:38.920
Whereas AI just gives you whatever you ask it for,
671
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:40.339
basically.
672
00:33:40.360 --> 00:33:40.440
Yeah.
673
00:33:40.540 --> 00:33:43.820
So now I change the way I prompt to make sure I'm
674
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:47.700
challenging even my own opinion of what I think that
675
00:33:47.800 --> 00:33:50.750
sort of truth is. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's kind of-
676
00:33:50.750 --> 00:33:51.580
It makes a lot of sense.
677
00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:51.740
Yeah.
678
00:33:51.890 --> 00:33:54.740
And I think that highlights something that I think is really important, which
679
00:33:54.840 --> 00:33:58.820
is the concept of slop is real.
680
00:33:59.580 --> 00:34:03.420
And I think you'll start to see, Chris, this bifurcation of talent
681
00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:07.970
that knows how to apply critical thinking and
682
00:34:08.080 --> 00:34:11.940
judgment alongside AI and talent that
683
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:13.000
doesn't know how to do it.
684
00:34:13.420 --> 00:34:13.470
Mm-hmm.
685
00:34:13.511 --> 00:34:17.420
And I think you'll start to see the K happen in
686
00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:20.960
terms of the types of workers who use it to be an
687
00:34:21.040 --> 00:34:22.089
augmentation
688
00:34:22.900 --> 00:34:24.240
for their intelligence-
689
00:34:24.560 --> 00:34:24.700
Yes
690
00:34:24.801 --> 00:34:28.620
... versus those who use it as a crutch for
691
00:34:28.680 --> 00:34:30.660
something that they never really learned.
692
00:34:30.900 --> 00:34:31.120
Yeah.
693
00:34:31.240 --> 00:34:34.940
And that's probably my biggest fear with what is going to happen.
694
00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:39.000
We think about in
695
00:34:39.060 --> 00:34:42.281
order to have a thriving democracy, you need a thriving middle class.
696
00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:46.040
And already we're seeing
697
00:34:47.040 --> 00:34:50.861
this kind of division between the haves and have-nots and a
698
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:53.841
widening gap between those who
699
00:34:54.060 --> 00:34:58.020
are socioeconomically
700
00:34:58.030 --> 00:35:01.380
well off. Sorry, those who are economically doing well and those who are not.
701
00:35:01.420 --> 00:35:01.700
Mm-hmm.
702
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:05.860
And I think about that from a knowledge perspective, like what starts to happen
703
00:35:06.460 --> 00:35:10.200
when there are a set of people who are creative, have
704
00:35:10.260 --> 00:35:14.089
curiosity, are willing to test the boundaries,
705
00:35:14.180 --> 00:35:17.730
push the envelope, not just take what is happening as the answer,
706
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.439
but actually be more discerning about what is happening,
707
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:25.390
versus those who do not. I think the quality of the product and the
708
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:29.220
quality of the output, I see it already today, is just materially
709
00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:29.740
different.
710
00:35:30.720 --> 00:35:33.960
And so if you start to see that knowledge
711
00:35:34.100 --> 00:35:35.460
bifurcation happen,
712
00:35:36.460 --> 00:35:40.140
and I don't mean knowledge workers versus non, I mean the concept of
713
00:35:40.180 --> 00:35:40.700
knowledge.
714
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:41.020
Sure.
715
00:35:41.600 --> 00:35:43.020
What starts to happen
716
00:35:43.940 --> 00:35:46.280
is, I think, an era like the Renaissance.
717
00:35:47.180 --> 00:35:51.140
And for me, my perspective is what are we going to
718
00:35:51.180 --> 00:35:54.310
collectively do to help ensure that if that
719
00:35:54.820 --> 00:35:58.720
era of the world happens again, more people get to
720
00:35:58.780 --> 00:36:02.600
participate in the curiosity, the creativity, the
721
00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:07.380
beautiful parts of that era, and not the actual parts
722
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.700
of that era that had a lot of suffering and
723
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.020
income inequality and knowledge inequality
724
00:36:15.200 --> 00:36:19.120
and elitism. That is actually the thing I'm most worried about, which is
725
00:36:19.140 --> 00:36:20.940
why I think this is a collective action problem.
726
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:22.300
Yeah. Wow.
727
00:36:23.140 --> 00:36:25.740
I love that view and perspective and
728
00:36:26.680 --> 00:36:30.640
this is on a smaller scale, but one of the reasons why we started HR Leaders and
729
00:36:30.680 --> 00:36:33.670
this show is that I wanted to democratize
730
00:36:34.560 --> 00:36:37.020
access to content and this knowledge.
731
00:36:37.560 --> 00:36:41.220
Because I had thousands of conversations with leaders like yourself and HR leaders
732
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.920
all over the world, and I was like manually connecting people together and I was
733
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:46.270
like, "There's got to be a better way.
734
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:47.760
I can't keep doing it this way." And
735
00:36:48.600 --> 00:36:52.080
it was always like you've got to pay X amount of money for your--
736
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:55.760
I feel like I'm picking on them right now, but certain companies, you
737
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:59.600
had to pay to play, right? And have access-
738
00:36:59.760 --> 00:36:59.790
Yeah
739
00:36:59.790 --> 00:37:03.640
... to knowledge. And I was like, "What if I just create a show and give it
740
00:37:03.660 --> 00:37:04.340
away for free?"
741
00:37:05.676 --> 00:37:07.576
Yeah. Democratizing access.
742
00:37:07.656 --> 00:37:10.915
Yeah. And same with our events, right? Like we do all over the world.
743
00:37:10.976 --> 00:37:12.976
We don't charge tickets for anything.
744
00:37:13.066 --> 00:37:13.066
Yeah.
745
00:37:13.076 --> 00:37:15.006
And that's been
746
00:37:15.896 --> 00:37:17.746
one of the reasons why we've been successful is
747
00:37:18.756 --> 00:37:22.536
we spend 99% of our time just trying to provide value.
748
00:37:22.916 --> 00:37:23.056
Yeah.
749
00:37:23.116 --> 00:37:26.466
And then I just saw AI as an amplifier of
750
00:37:26.516 --> 00:37:27.336
that.
751
00:37:27.396 --> 00:37:27.756
Yeah.
752
00:37:27.816 --> 00:37:31.676
So I was like, wow, not only can I do this, but now I can do it at scale in any
753
00:37:31.736 --> 00:37:32.266
language-
754
00:37:32.846 --> 00:37:32.846
Yeah
755
00:37:32.896 --> 00:37:35.046
... and make it even more accessible, right,
756
00:37:36.296 --> 00:37:38.016
as well. So I'm very excited by what that means.
757
00:37:38.276 --> 00:37:41.636
One of the things I'm concerned about, and I don't know how deep we'll get into
758
00:37:41.656 --> 00:37:41.956
this, is
759
00:37:43.096 --> 00:37:46.136
when you think about the government, education,
760
00:37:47.036 --> 00:37:50.516
we're talking about in our companies, how the
761
00:37:50.556 --> 00:37:54.036
half-life of skills and how things quickly are moving,
762
00:37:54.556 --> 00:37:56.536
but they're kind of known for moving so slow.
763
00:37:57.296 --> 00:37:59.456
If I look at the skills and capabilities that
764
00:38:01.136 --> 00:38:02.316
people are leaving school with,
765
00:38:03.116 --> 00:38:04.056
they're just not prepared.
766
00:38:05.736 --> 00:38:07.836
Yeah. I think they're not prepared for two reasons.
767
00:38:07.956 --> 00:38:09.916
One is, what do you want them prepared for?
768
00:38:10.796 --> 00:38:14.476
And this is where I can argue to the moon and back, and we don't have
769
00:38:14.536 --> 00:38:17.816
time around- ... what's the right preparation.
770
00:38:18.096 --> 00:38:18.316
Yeah.
771
00:38:18.416 --> 00:38:22.396
And I think there's a lot of opposing views or different views on that.
772
00:38:22.496 --> 00:38:26.176
I have my own personal, very strong views on that, and love a good
773
00:38:26.196 --> 00:38:29.636
debate on that. But I think one is like, what are you preparing them for?
774
00:38:30.436 --> 00:38:30.506
Yeah.
775
00:38:30.536 --> 00:38:33.856
And the second is, and I do think there's a set of people who are coming out
776
00:38:33.936 --> 00:38:37.556
of traditional four-year institutions who need to be
777
00:38:37.576 --> 00:38:41.316
prepared for connecting the dots and context switching-
778
00:38:41.416 --> 00:38:41.496
Yes
779
00:38:41.506 --> 00:38:44.496
... and understanding multiple disciplines, and they are getting prepared.
780
00:38:44.886 --> 00:38:47.296
And then there's a whole set of people who aren't.
781
00:38:47.326 --> 00:38:51.026
The other thing that I think has to happen, it goes back to you just said something
782
00:38:51.076 --> 00:38:54.836
that sparked. You said, "I can't go around connecting all of
783
00:38:54.896 --> 00:38:58.076
these. Someone has a question, connecting them to the expert.
784
00:38:58.216 --> 00:39:02.036
I can't do that individually as one person." And I think of
785
00:39:02.076 --> 00:39:05.656
guilt that way. If you're a learning institution,
786
00:39:06.296 --> 00:39:10.216
trying to get in touch with every employer to understand what their demands are
787
00:39:10.296 --> 00:39:14.186
and what their needs are and how to prepare for the future workforce, and cutting
788
00:39:14.186 --> 00:39:17.936
the noise out from what is actually durable
789
00:39:18.016 --> 00:39:20.516
is really hard as one individual learning
790
00:39:20.556 --> 00:39:22.016
institution.
791
00:39:22.036 --> 00:39:22.116
Yeah.
792
00:39:22.156 --> 00:39:26.086
But if we can bring the right parties together and have a conversation around,
793
00:39:26.456 --> 00:39:26.796
there's
794
00:39:28.176 --> 00:39:31.596
a 5,000 person gap in the United States on
795
00:39:31.736 --> 00:39:35.425
pharmacists. 5,000. That's 5,000 jobs
796
00:39:35.436 --> 00:39:38.596
tomorrow that people could have if there were actual people who had
797
00:39:38.616 --> 00:39:42.356
pharmacy licensures in the US. Okay, cool.
798
00:39:42.396 --> 00:39:46.376
The problem with pharmacists and pharmacy licensure is that the timeline
799
00:39:46.416 --> 00:39:50.056
is so long that it's impossible for people to take
800
00:39:50.156 --> 00:39:53.076
on, and it costs so much money. Great.
801
00:39:53.676 --> 00:39:56.896
That's a problem to solve. How do we bring the right institutions together, have a
802
00:39:56.936 --> 00:40:00.416
conversation, and say, "Your timeline is too long, it's too
803
00:40:00.456 --> 00:40:02.466
expensive, and we need a different approach"?
804
00:40:02.876 --> 00:40:04.116
And so I do think,
805
00:40:05.196 --> 00:40:09.156
again, bringing together supply and demand, but not doing it in
806
00:40:09.216 --> 00:40:10.136
a one-off way-
807
00:40:10.236 --> 00:40:10.356
Yeah
808
00:40:10.636 --> 00:40:14.596
... is probably the best approach we have, Chris, right now, for figuring
809
00:40:14.696 --> 00:40:18.576
out how we're going to transition the economy at scale, because it's
810
00:40:18.616 --> 00:40:20.036
very similar to what you're trying to do.
811
00:40:20.116 --> 00:40:24.016
I'm trying to broaden access to something, but I cannot do it one person
812
00:40:24.116 --> 00:40:24.616
at a time.
813
00:40:24.816 --> 00:40:26.236
Yeah. I love that.
814
00:40:27.916 --> 00:40:30.336
I could talk to you forever, but I know we're already nearly run out of time.
815
00:40:31.116 --> 00:40:31.236
One
816
00:40:32.276 --> 00:40:35.256
question I did have, which relates to everything we just said, is, in your opinion,
817
00:40:35.956 --> 00:40:39.756
how do we strike the balance between AI and human skills?
818
00:40:40.116 --> 00:40:43.616
We just covered it, but just kind of from a wider view.
819
00:40:44.496 --> 00:40:48.476
Yeah. I think there's two things. One is there are a lot of companies
820
00:40:48.516 --> 00:40:52.456
going through the process of, at least you see it in the headlines,
821
00:40:52.756 --> 00:40:56.156
and we can see it in some of our own data, they're going through shrinking their
822
00:40:56.196 --> 00:41:00.176
workforces. And my request is that folks think
823
00:41:00.256 --> 00:41:03.096
about what role they play when they make that decision.
824
00:41:03.256 --> 00:41:04.456
There's a human toll
825
00:41:05.516 --> 00:41:07.236
that is being taken,
826
00:41:08.136 --> 00:41:10.336
and these are hard decisions, right?
827
00:41:10.356 --> 00:41:12.396
People are not making them flippantly.
828
00:41:12.456 --> 00:41:15.036
There's pressure, there's a need to move quicker.
829
00:41:15.096 --> 00:41:16.616
There's a lot of reasons why
830
00:41:17.736 --> 00:41:20.996
employers have to make this decision, and my request is think about
831
00:41:22.116 --> 00:41:25.726
what it means for that human toll and what you could do to help alleviate some of
832
00:41:25.756 --> 00:41:26.736
that burden.
833
00:41:26.776 --> 00:41:27.216
Yeah.
834
00:41:27.276 --> 00:41:31.056
The second thing, in my opinion, is taking the
835
00:41:31.116 --> 00:41:34.956
time to really understand, I said at the beginning, what are your
836
00:41:34.976 --> 00:41:38.876
core differentiators? What's going to help you and your business
837
00:41:39.356 --> 00:41:41.096
maintain a competitive advantage?
838
00:41:41.656 --> 00:41:45.616
And how do you integrate AI with whatever that thing is so that
839
00:41:45.676 --> 00:41:47.656
you maintain that competitive advantage?
840
00:41:48.076 --> 00:41:51.196
And like we've been saying for a long time, people are our biggest asset.
841
00:41:51.636 --> 00:41:53.076
We've heard companies say that.
842
00:41:53.156 --> 00:41:53.346
Yeah.
843
00:41:53.916 --> 00:41:57.456
And there is something about what they do that has driven your competitive
844
00:41:57.466 --> 00:42:00.796
advantage. And think about that. Spend time beating that up.
845
00:42:00.996 --> 00:42:04.956
Get in a room, whiteboard it, talk with as many customers as you
846
00:42:05.016 --> 00:42:08.456
can about what your employees have done or what
847
00:42:08.516 --> 00:42:12.076
your employees are doing that's driving competitive differentiation,
848
00:42:12.476 --> 00:42:14.746
and then figure out how to augment that with AI.
849
00:42:15.116 --> 00:42:19.056
Yeah. One of the things that we wrote down in the notes, but I want to just bring
850
00:42:19.136 --> 00:42:23.086
up that stuck with me when I read it before we hit record, was when you were
851
00:42:23.136 --> 00:42:25.536
talking about where automation is a
852
00:42:25.676 --> 00:42:29.476
superpower and where it's a liability, based on what you just
853
00:42:29.496 --> 00:42:32.516
said. And that's something now I've sat down in the team, because I don't want to
854
00:42:32.576 --> 00:42:34.176
lose some of that magic, right?
855
00:42:36.536 --> 00:42:40.376
Some of the intangibles almost. For example, I know there's a
856
00:42:40.476 --> 00:42:40.976
huge,
857
00:42:41.936 --> 00:42:42.186
probably
858
00:42:43.376 --> 00:42:47.236
maybe it's 50%, I would say, of the relationships and the customers that I have,
859
00:42:47.996 --> 00:42:51.116
I could automate a lot of this stuff.
860
00:42:51.876 --> 00:42:51.996
But
861
00:42:53.036 --> 00:42:55.656
I enjoy meeting them face-to-face.
862
00:42:56.676 --> 00:42:59.456
I enjoy having a conversation with them.
863
00:43:00.196 --> 00:43:02.506
I can automate so many of these tasks,
864
00:43:03.576 --> 00:43:07.456
but that connection like we started the show talking about, and the
865
00:43:07.496 --> 00:43:11.356
episode we're talking about, I'm not automating that because this part of the
866
00:43:11.396 --> 00:43:13.756
experience that when you work with HR leaders
867
00:43:14.580 --> 00:43:16.240
That's what we're known for.
868
00:43:16.710 --> 00:43:16.710
Yeah.
869
00:43:16.710 --> 00:43:19.430
And people always say to us, "Chris, we love working with you and the team."
870
00:43:20.640 --> 00:43:23.110
And I'm like, "Well, I can automate a lot of that, so you don't even see the team,
871
00:43:23.640 --> 00:43:24.600
and it would be a lot cheaper
872
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:29.380
to do that." But it's the customer delight is like, I love to
873
00:43:29.420 --> 00:43:33.320
say, that we create, with our fruit
874
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:37.210
human experiences, that I will never automate that because that would
875
00:43:37.260 --> 00:43:40.280
actually change what makes us special. So you have to be very careful.
876
00:43:40.640 --> 00:43:44.480
Just because there is a tool and you can do it, doesn't
877
00:43:44.520 --> 00:43:45.100
mean you should
878
00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:50.900
do it. And I've undone a few times. I've put an agent here and now I'm like,
879
00:43:50.940 --> 00:43:52.540
"No, no, no. Actually, whoa. Take that back out.
880
00:43:52.780 --> 00:43:56.350
That needs to be a human interaction and a
881
00:43:57.400 --> 00:44:01.390
human needs to be the judgment behind the action," if that makes
882
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:01.670
sense-
883
00:44:02.500 --> 00:44:02.720
Yeah
884
00:44:02.730 --> 00:44:03.120
... a decision.
885
00:44:03.160 --> 00:44:05.160
I also think you-- I'll just give you a quick example.
886
00:44:05.240 --> 00:44:08.660
I do skip levels with all of my direct reports' direct reports,
887
00:44:09.100 --> 00:44:10.420
and they fill out a form and they
888
00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:14.080
go through and tell me what's going well, what's not going well, et cetera.
889
00:44:14.180 --> 00:44:17.980
But I do the skip levels because there is context in people's
890
00:44:18.020 --> 00:44:21.420
brains that they didn't think to tell you.
891
00:44:21.940 --> 00:44:25.760
And so the ability to spend time actually quickly, even if it's
892
00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:26.460
10 minutes,
893
00:44:27.600 --> 00:44:31.520
asking them questions to go a little bit deeper into what they
894
00:44:31.620 --> 00:44:35.400
put in the feedback, I think is way more valuable than
895
00:44:36.380 --> 00:44:39.900
capturing that in an automated way is great for getting an initial
896
00:44:39.980 --> 00:44:42.340
inkling of where's the canary in the coal mine.
897
00:44:42.740 --> 00:44:46.300
But then you've got to go in to figure out, okay, you said this one thing, what did
898
00:44:46.340 --> 00:44:49.400
it actually mean? And unpack that for me. What's going on?
899
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:53.580
Why'd you say it? And I've had people tell me, "I didn't even realize that that was
900
00:44:53.600 --> 00:44:57.480
something that was bothering me until you started asking me more questions." And
901
00:44:57.520 --> 00:45:01.250
so I think it is really important, that human connection, the intuition,
902
00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:05.750
the knowing, there might be more here than what they're telling you, I think
903
00:45:05.780 --> 00:45:09.260
is a really important thing. And I think it's hard today for AI
904
00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:13.300
to augment or to replace that. And will it in some future world?
905
00:45:13.660 --> 00:45:14.040
Maybe.
906
00:45:14.820 --> 00:45:15.120
Yeah.
907
00:45:15.560 --> 00:45:18.280
But it's not today, and I don't think it's in the next few years.
908
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.800
Yeah. Also, I love what you described because it's also more inclusive.
909
00:45:22.720 --> 00:45:22.959
Yeah.
910
00:45:23.220 --> 00:45:26.880
Because not everyone is going to react or
911
00:45:26.940 --> 00:45:28.380
operate in certain environments.
912
00:45:29.060 --> 00:45:30.990
Versus sometimes when
913
00:45:32.080 --> 00:45:34.660
I've learned that about my team in terms of, example, how they like to receive
914
00:45:34.700 --> 00:45:35.120
feedback.
915
00:45:36.260 --> 00:45:36.500
Yeah.
916
00:45:36.560 --> 00:45:38.740
Or be recognized, actually, on the reverse.
917
00:45:39.340 --> 00:45:40.280
Some love it in public-
918
00:45:40.350 --> 00:45:40.350
Yeah
919
00:45:40.350 --> 00:45:44.180
... some like to follow up with an email after because it was 20 people in a
920
00:45:44.220 --> 00:45:47.820
room and they just actually needed time to process as well.
921
00:45:47.900 --> 00:45:49.920
Imagine if we just replaced that with just AI-
922
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:51.220
Yeah
923
00:45:51.230 --> 00:45:53.689
... as a one-size-fits-everyone approach.
924
00:45:53.689 --> 00:45:53.780
Yeah.
925
00:45:53.830 --> 00:45:55.439
It'd be disaster. But we could.
926
00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:56.200
It would be a disaster.
927
00:45:56.240 --> 00:45:57.020
It would save time.
928
00:45:58.130 --> 00:46:01.560
But the one counter to that is what you said earlier, which
929
00:46:01.620 --> 00:46:05.380
is the aspects of personalization that can happen with
930
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:06.380
AI are
931
00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:11.200
the scale at which you can personalize is really
932
00:46:11.220 --> 00:46:13.940
different than today. You talked about having your podcast-
933
00:46:13.950 --> 00:46:14.020
Sure
934
00:46:14.029 --> 00:46:17.720
... in every language. You can do it super fast, it's cost efficient for you,
935
00:46:18.140 --> 00:46:21.180
it allows for you to personalize for specific audiences.
936
00:46:21.560 --> 00:46:25.380
And so, again, I actually think people thinking through how do
937
00:46:25.460 --> 00:46:26.910
these two things come together-
938
00:46:27.340 --> 00:46:27.350
Yes
939
00:46:27.350 --> 00:46:31.220
... and what are the right use cases, I think is really, really
940
00:46:31.260 --> 00:46:33.460
important and cannot be overlooked.
941
00:46:34.620 --> 00:46:38.360
And I think you sometimes don't know what is a good use case and what isn't, to the
942
00:46:38.420 --> 00:46:40.710
other point you made, until you try it out.
943
00:46:41.300 --> 00:46:44.560
And so this isn't getting perfect before you do something.
944
00:46:44.570 --> 00:46:44.570
Of course.
945
00:46:44.580 --> 00:46:48.540
This is about iterating and staying agile, and making sure your
946
00:46:48.580 --> 00:46:51.520
teams are resilient to when things do work and don't work.
947
00:46:51.580 --> 00:46:55.160
Yeah. And to that point, though, back to the infrastructure and systems and tools,
948
00:46:55.600 --> 00:46:59.400
they're not designed for us to be agile, and for
949
00:46:59.460 --> 00:47:02.689
us to fail forward and break things and
950
00:47:03.740 --> 00:47:04.240
move on.
951
00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:04.290
Yeah.
952
00:47:04.290 --> 00:47:07.260
Because we've set up all of these frameworks and tools and even how people are
953
00:47:07.300 --> 00:47:10.600
rewarded financially and incentivized,
954
00:47:11.520 --> 00:47:13.300
everything needs to be-
955
00:47:13.600 --> 00:47:13.800
Yeah, it is
956
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:14.000
...
957
00:47:15.120 --> 00:47:16.930
re-looked at along the way.
958
00:47:17.060 --> 00:47:17.900
Yeah.
959
00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:21.400
I think the entire system needs to be rethought.
960
00:47:21.500 --> 00:47:25.360
I also think you can get really paralyzed if you focus on everything needs to be
961
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:29.400
redone versus taking it down in chunks, and
962
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:31.720
figuring out where's the most important place to start.
963
00:47:31.819 --> 00:47:35.319
Yeah. I think I like your point earlier, I wrote it down, about just putting one
964
00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:36.220
foot in front of the other.
965
00:47:37.020 --> 00:47:37.420
Otherwise-
966
00:47:37.500 --> 00:47:37.510
Yeah
967
00:47:37.640 --> 00:47:38.980
... it just becomes overwhelming.
968
00:47:39.240 --> 00:47:42.140
My wife, I have a thing where I don't look at my week in one go-
969
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:45.940
... because it's too much to take in.
970
00:47:45.980 --> 00:47:48.670
My wife's like, "What are you doing on Thursday?" Because Robyn's got gymnastics.
971
00:47:48.740 --> 00:47:49.930
I'm like, "I can't look at Thursday."
972
00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:52.600
And she's like, "Why?" I was like, "I need to solve
973
00:47:54.240 --> 00:47:58.090
one problem at a time." I do know
974
00:47:58.120 --> 00:48:02.070
what's happening, but I try not to get overwhelmed by looking too far-
975
00:48:02.530 --> 00:48:02.530
Yeah
976
00:48:02.530 --> 00:48:06.110
... down the line. I was like, let me solve what's in front of me right now, and
977
00:48:06.180 --> 00:48:09.810
I've got my tasks, and if I can end each day achieving
978
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:13.760
this and moving this much more forward, that's kind of-- Whereas if I look at
979
00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:16.020
everything, I'm like, "Ugh."
980
00:48:16.060 --> 00:48:16.519
Yes.
981
00:48:16.620 --> 00:48:16.900
All right, listen.
982
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:18.270
Go on, sorry, go on.
983
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:21.340
Just to go back to the personalization point, I'm the opposite of you.
984
00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:25.660
I'm an introvert, and so I need to look at the whole week to understand all the
985
00:48:25.680 --> 00:48:27.160
places where I have to interact-
986
00:48:27.380 --> 00:48:27.460
Yeah
987
00:48:27.470 --> 00:48:31.220
... with large groups of people to make sure I fill my cup enough
988
00:48:31.640 --> 00:48:34.420
to be able to engage productively in those conversations.
989
00:48:34.520 --> 00:48:38.440
And so I think that's context you have on yourself and context
990
00:48:38.580 --> 00:48:41.280
I have on myself on, yeah, different ways of working.
991
00:48:41.690 --> 00:48:45.250
Yeah. It's really interesting. By the way, I am an introvert, which is very
992
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:46.010
surprising for people.
993
00:48:46.010 --> 00:48:47.830
Yeah. No, I was just saying my introverted-ness needs me to stack it up.
994
00:48:47.830 --> 00:48:48.570
That's what you need, yeah.
995
00:48:48.570 --> 00:48:48.920
Yeah.
996
00:48:49.040 --> 00:48:52.130
The way I get over that, I say get over that.
997
00:48:52.460 --> 00:48:56.130
Well, for me, if I come back from when we was in Vegas at the event,
998
00:48:56.300 --> 00:48:59.460
I need to spend two days just alone.
999
00:49:00.240 --> 00:49:00.620
Yeah.
1000
00:49:01.780 --> 00:49:05.640
Because the amount of social interaction, obviously, a million
1001
00:49:05.680 --> 00:49:08.710
podcasts and chatting to hundreds and hundreds of people-
1002
00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:09.430
Yeah
1003
00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:12.500
... I have to sit in my office at home and I'm just like, no.
1004
00:49:12.650 --> 00:49:15.180
And the team knows, I'm like, "I just need recharge-
1005
00:49:15.820 --> 00:49:15.980
Yeah
1006
00:49:16.200 --> 00:49:18.760
... time." My wife knows. I was like-
1007
00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:19.250
Yeah. Definitely knows
1008
00:49:19.250 --> 00:49:21.660
... because my social batteries is gone.
1009
00:49:21.700 --> 00:49:24.360
It feels like I've run a marathon and I haven't even gone anywhere.
1010
00:49:24.389 --> 00:49:24.389
Yeah.
1011
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:27.910
As well. Before you go, is there anything
1012
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:30.810
that I didn't ask you that I should have?
1013
00:49:34.448 --> 00:49:37.488
I can't think of anything. I love this conversation.
1014
00:49:37.568 --> 00:49:41.068
Also, I could talk to you for a long time and pontificate on many
1015
00:49:41.088 --> 00:49:41.708
things.
1016
00:49:41.788 --> 00:49:42.048
Yeah.
1017
00:49:44.028 --> 00:49:47.688
Everything you shared, we could have just went down a rabbit hole of one of those
1018
00:49:47.728 --> 00:49:51.008
things, and I was just like, "Oh my God, there's so much to cover."
1019
00:49:51.568 --> 00:49:52.208
In a good way.
1020
00:49:52.248 --> 00:49:52.868
Yeah.
1021
00:49:53.528 --> 00:49:53.758
As well.
1022
00:49:53.798 --> 00:49:56.668
Well, I'm happy to come back if it's ever helpful. So you let me know.
1023
00:49:56.948 --> 00:49:58.088
Yeah. It was super fun.
1024
00:49:58.118 --> 00:49:58.228
Yeah.
1025
00:49:58.288 --> 00:49:58.608
And
1026
00:49:59.728 --> 00:50:03.398
I've interviewed many of your team members before, like Terrance in the past and
1027
00:50:03.448 --> 00:50:03.728
others.
1028
00:50:03.808 --> 00:50:03.988
Yeah.
1029
00:50:04.338 --> 00:50:06.188
And, I'm a big fan-
1030
00:50:06.427 --> 00:50:06.518
Thank you
1031
00:50:06.518 --> 00:50:09.548
... of your team and what you're doing.
1032
00:50:09.608 --> 00:50:12.108
And, it's been incredible to see the evolution
1033
00:50:13.668 --> 00:50:16.068
of the organization, even just over the last couple of years.
1034
00:50:16.228 --> 00:50:19.728
Not saying it wasn't there, but it's just kind of like
1035
00:50:19.768 --> 00:50:23.708
this thrusted in every- the brand and
1036
00:50:24.028 --> 00:50:27.188
whoever's behind the brand and the work in terms of...
1037
00:50:27.288 --> 00:50:29.408
But I don't know. I just like the...
1038
00:50:29.808 --> 00:50:29.988
You keep-
1039
00:50:30.048 --> 00:50:31.308
I have one person right here.
1040
00:50:31.408 --> 00:50:32.128
Oh, okay. Yeah.
1041
00:50:32.648 --> 00:50:32.858
Yeah.
1042
00:50:33.028 --> 00:50:35.608
Shout out to the team. But it's not just that.
1043
00:50:35.648 --> 00:50:38.928
It's I'm hearing it from your customers directly, right?
1044
00:50:39.108 --> 00:50:39.978
So whatever you're doing,
1045
00:50:41.008 --> 00:50:41.568
keep doing it.
1046
00:50:41.588 --> 00:50:45.178
Right. One of our core values or core
1047
00:50:45.178 --> 00:50:47.298
principles is customer centricity.
1048
00:50:47.548 --> 00:50:48.388
Hmm.
1049
00:50:48.448 --> 00:50:52.088
And you said it too. I think it's so important to be on the ground
1050
00:50:52.108 --> 00:50:55.408
listening to your customers. One of the reasons why I like coming to the forums
1051
00:50:55.488 --> 00:50:59.188
that I've seen you at is actually less about trying to hawk a
1052
00:50:59.198 --> 00:51:03.188
deal to someone, and more about in order to be
1053
00:51:03.248 --> 00:51:07.108
able to be effective at building the things we need to build as a business,
1054
00:51:07.608 --> 00:51:11.158
I need to understand the customer's problems as well as I
1055
00:51:11.188 --> 00:51:11.988
possibly can.
1056
00:51:12.368 --> 00:51:12.568
Yeah.
1057
00:51:13.088 --> 00:51:16.808
And so it's more about listening and more about hearing where
1058
00:51:16.848 --> 00:51:17.848
there's concern,
1059
00:51:18.848 --> 00:51:22.048
what's working for people, what's not working for people.
1060
00:51:22.368 --> 00:51:26.238
It's probably one of the best things that I've been able to do, and
1061
00:51:26.268 --> 00:51:29.408
these forums, for someone like me, who isn't an operating
1062
00:51:29.508 --> 00:51:30.328
CHRO,
1063
00:51:31.228 --> 00:51:32.098
it's so valuable-
1064
00:51:32.448 --> 00:51:32.648
Yeah
1065
00:51:32.748 --> 00:51:34.328
... just hearing customers' problems.
1066
00:51:35.188 --> 00:51:38.048
I can't emphasize how much I agree with you.
1067
00:51:38.108 --> 00:51:41.948
When people come to me, and they talk about what we've built with Atlas,
1068
00:51:42.968 --> 00:51:45.648
and they're like, "How did you come up with all of it?" I'm like, "Literally none
1069
00:51:45.668 --> 00:51:49.648
of this is..." This is just everything I'm hearing.
1070
00:51:50.528 --> 00:51:50.968
Yeah.
1071
00:51:50.978 --> 00:51:53.078
And they're like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "No, this isn't my...
1072
00:51:53.488 --> 00:51:56.828
I'm not going to sit here and pretend all these are my ideas." I'm in a very
1073
00:51:56.908 --> 00:51:59.768
privileged job that I get to speak to leaders like yourself and HR leaders all over
1074
00:51:59.788 --> 00:52:02.928
the world every day. So all I'm doing is just listening
1075
00:52:03.668 --> 00:52:04.828
and just executing.
1076
00:52:05.588 --> 00:52:05.808
Yeah.
1077
00:52:07.188 --> 00:52:08.188
Which is underrated.
1078
00:52:09.158 --> 00:52:09.158
Yeah.
1079
00:52:09.928 --> 00:52:13.457
I'm just listening, and then I'm like, "Okay, I keep hearing this over and over
1080
00:52:13.508 --> 00:52:14.427
again."
1081
00:52:14.668 --> 00:52:14.878
Yeah.
1082
00:52:14.948 --> 00:52:18.248
And I'm like, "Okay." But most of the time when people hear that, but there's a
1083
00:52:18.268 --> 00:52:20.268
knowing-doing gap, and one of our biggest-
1084
00:52:20.338 --> 00:52:20.338
Yeah
1085
00:52:20.338 --> 00:52:23.968
... superpowers is we have the knowledge, we
1086
00:52:24.048 --> 00:52:27.948
know the doing, and then... Sorry, where people fall down is the actual execution
1087
00:52:28.048 --> 00:52:28.348
part.
1088
00:52:28.588 --> 00:52:28.708
Yeah.
1089
00:52:28.848 --> 00:52:30.888
Because they're not willing to fail on their face and fail.
1090
00:52:31.348 --> 00:52:31.608
Atlas-
1091
00:52:32.048 --> 00:52:32.128
Yeah
1092
00:52:32.168 --> 00:52:34.908
... has gone through looks like a completely different product from when we started
1093
00:52:34.968 --> 00:52:36.438
it because-
1094
00:52:36.457 --> 00:52:36.457
Yeah
1095
00:52:36.457 --> 00:52:40.218
... what AI was two years ago is completely different now.
1096
00:52:40.288 --> 00:52:41.078
Different. Yeah.
1097
00:52:41.088 --> 00:52:44.228
And my job is to listen to our customer every day and then create what they want,
1098
00:52:44.248 --> 00:52:47.108
and it kind of sounds obvious, but it is if you really
1099
00:52:47.188 --> 00:52:49.948
just take time to truly listen.
1100
00:52:50.008 --> 00:52:53.548
To do it. Yeah. I agree. I think even for us,
1101
00:52:54.028 --> 00:52:57.948
the customers who didn't buy us, or the prospects who
1102
00:52:57.988 --> 00:53:01.588
didn't buy us, and our existing customers,
1103
00:53:02.048 --> 00:53:04.108
ones who've been really upset with us,
1104
00:53:05.208 --> 00:53:09.038
there's so much gold in there. And especially when
1105
00:53:09.148 --> 00:53:10.668
I first took over, the fact
1106
00:53:11.708 --> 00:53:15.028
just spending time with them and being like, "Why'd you choose someone else?
1107
00:53:15.048 --> 00:53:18.168
What problem were you trying to solve that we couldn't solve?" There's so much
1108
00:53:18.248 --> 00:53:19.088
innovation gold-
1109
00:53:19.148 --> 00:53:19.158
Yes
1110
00:53:19.158 --> 00:53:22.868
... locked up in there because none of these things
1111
00:53:22.948 --> 00:53:26.508
are necessarily our ideas. Everything is
1112
00:53:26.548 --> 00:53:30.348
inspired by our customers and what they
1113
00:53:30.428 --> 00:53:32.888
are looking for and what problems they can solve.
1114
00:53:33.708 --> 00:53:37.588
And the passion with which they tell you about their problems is a good
1115
00:53:37.628 --> 00:53:40.568
signal for how burning that thing might be.
1116
00:53:40.908 --> 00:53:41.208
Yeah.
1117
00:53:41.218 --> 00:53:41.218
Yeah.
1118
00:53:41.248 --> 00:53:43.388
And they will always want to talk about it.
1119
00:53:44.048 --> 00:53:45.768
So it's fine.
1120
00:53:45.778 --> 00:53:45.778
Yeah.
1121
00:53:45.788 --> 00:53:48.328
But listen, I got to let you go. Thank you so much for coming on.
1122
00:53:48.388 --> 00:53:52.308
I appreciate you, appreciate the team and everything, and I wish you all the best
1123
00:53:52.908 --> 00:53:53.008
into the next week.
1124
00:53:53.027 --> 00:53:54.788
Yeah. Thank you, Chris. Hope to see you again soon.
1125
00:53:54.988 --> 00:53:55.788
See you. Bye-bye.
1126
00:53:56.068 --> 00:53:56.588
Okay, bye.
Bijal Shah, CEO & Board Director at Guild.