5 Hidden Burnout Risks for High Achievers
What if burnout is not only about how much you work, but what you believe success requires from you?
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, I sit down with Nabeela Elsayed, MS, ACC, author of Breaking Burnout, to explore why high achievers can become exhausted even when they love their work, have supportive leaders and are succeeding on paper. Her research challenges the idea that burnout can always be explained by a toxic workplace or an individual who simply needs better boundaries.
For HR leaders, the conversation raises a bigger question about how we think about wellbeing at work. Burnout sits inside a wider system of work, relationships, caregiving, identity, expectations and personal beliefs, which means sustainable performance may require organisations and individuals to rethink far more than workload alone.
5 things you’ll learn from this episode:
Why some of the highest-performing people can also be the most vulnerable to burnout
The success belief Nabeela believes can keep people working harder long after hard work stops helping
Why having a strong sense of purpose can sometimes create an unexpected burnout risk
What Nabeela learned from sports scientists about performing at a high level without constantly operating at maximum intensity
The identity shift that can help ambitious people build a healthier relationship with work without giving up ambition
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Sabina. Hi.
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We meet in person. You're here. You're real. I am. It's amazing.
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Oh my God. For context for everyone listening to watching right now, I mean I couldn't even work out actually earlier how many years ago. Six, five. I think we're at six. Yeah, six or five. Yeah, you're at IKEA. I'm going to go on the six-sided six. Yeah. Six, seven. Oh my God. I don't know if our audience will understand that reference. If you've got kids, maybe. I had to do it. I'm sorry. My children are probably like, "Oh my God." They're like, "Oh, they're dying right now." Yeah.
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We'll get into her if I ask, but firstly, how are you? I'm amazing. How's life treating you? I'm amazing. I mean, you know, in the world that we live in, when you wake up and you're healthy and your kids are healthy, and your neighbors are good, and your family's good, that's a good thing. Yeah. And honestly, like for me and the team, we're so proud and happy for you. Like, you know, we spoke about some of the aspirations for even the early days when you just spoke about the idea of the book, which we'll get into in a minute, and the work that you're now doing now. It's incredible when you have those conversations with people and now you're living it. Yeah. And it's taken you all over the world. You know, it's like if you go back to yourself 10 years ago and you were to ask yourself, like, "Where would you be in 10 years and what would you be doing?" I never could have imagined this is where I would be and what I would be doing. And I could say that for like every decade prior to the last, you know, the one before that and the one before that. So I think as much as we plan and think about, because I'm a planner, I have lots of plans, you know, you just never know where life is going to take you. Yeah. So today, everyone, a bit of a recap of what... So we met when you were IKEA, which I also completely forgot because it's so far back. What was your role there at the time? I think when we met, I was doing digital transformation. Okay. And then we reconnected when you was at Walmart, CITRO for Canva. And then the transition to... Oh, then COO, which was a surprise for me, but a pleasant one, given your background and experience as well.
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But tell everyone a bit more of the why and the inspiration behind the book and the journey that's taken you on now. So I think it's fascinating. Thank you so much. So I think, as you know, like I've been talking, we've been talking about mental health and well-being for a real long time. Yeah. That's actually how we connected for people. Yeah. Like Chester was writing his book on anxiety. Chester Elton wrote his book on anxiety at work. And then we came together, the three of us around mental health and well-being. And we both have our own mental health stories. And so for me, like my mental health and my well-being journey always involved my relationship with work. But there was this like question I couldn't figure out the answer to because I love my work. I had great bosses. I worked at great places. And a lot of times when you struggle with your relationship with work, people associate it with like a toxic work environment. That was never the case for me. And I thought I kept meeting people who had the same situation, like even your case, like you were an entrepreneur. You weren't... you felt like you were in a toxic working environment. Yeah. Yeah. I created my own one. Right. And so like I feel I always felt like something's missing from this equation. When we think about work and its effects on our lives, it was just oversimplified. It didn't add up in my head. And it's a conversation of villains. We're like either the worker is the villain or the workplace is the villain. And I just I couldn't reconcile that. And so I went on this like exploration journey to say there has to be more to this thing. And we have to understand it in a better way.
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I actually started the journey by systems mapping.
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Well, why am I surprised?
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Why am I surprised? I really had this huge life word in my office. I love to see. Did you take photos of that? I have photos. That's cool. You got to look back on that. And there's burnout in the middle. And I was like, OK, what are all the things that cause and reinforce burnout? What are the things that prevent it? And it's massive. I bet it looks like one of those detective boards to know when to solve in the case.
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So then I went on this journey to like interview leaders. Yeah. And these like reoccurring patterns kept emerging. And that's in essence what the book is about. Yeah.
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Why did you go with that name? It's pretty controversial. Yeah. Because I wanted to change. I wanted to break open. It's breaking burnout by the way. For those that are listening right now, breaking burnout. I want to. How high achievers break the success myths driving exhaustion over work and burnout. I forgot to forget about those audio only. Sorry about that, guys. Yeah. I just wanted to break open the conversation. I want us to stop pretending that this is a conversation just about work. So let me give you a little a few examples.
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And I also interviewed leaders around the world. Japan, Sweden, Mexico, North America. I also feel like when we talk about burnout, we're talking about just the North American experience, the Western experience. I lived in Sweden for many years, as you know. Yeah. Yeah. I, we have this, this least amount of hours worked of any OECD country except for Finland. So they work on average 35 hours. Interesting. Okay. The Finns of course, they'll have a lot of the Finns they work on. Is that a shorter days or shorter weeks? Sure. On hours in the day. Hours in the day. Yeah. Okay. Day starts and ends earlier. Yeah. They have 147% increase in burnout.
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Because they're cramming it in to that amount of time. Because the stress that people are experiencing and the causes of burnout are much bigger than just the stress they're experiencing at work. I see. Okay. And that is the conversation that we're not having. I'll give you another, I'll point to another example. The US Surgeon General last year issued a report on parental burnout. They commissioned a report on parental burnout. And they said that 41% of parents are struggling to get through the day. As parents, parental burnout, he's basically US Surgeon General was like sounding the alarm on parental burnout.
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Students are experiencing astronomical levels of stress and burnout. As students, they've never even entered the workforce. Caregiver burnout. Right. Now take someone who's working, has kids and is a sandwich generation caring for a parent who's aging. Yeah. It's the collective load that people are struggling to manage that is leading to this exhaustion and burnout. And we're not having that whole conversation. So that is the system. Now there's one other layer. So you have this, even one of the most protected things for your mental health
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is relationships. Healthy, meaningful relationships. People are now lonelier than they've ever been before. So you have this massive load and you have no one to share it with. No one to give that load to.
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And you're carrying it all by yourself. And this is like the system behind burnout. Yeah.
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Oh my God, there's so much to unpack. One of the things that I was always surprised about, which I learned through, you know, you're in people like yourself and thousands of leaders, is that there's a sort of misconception that,
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what I didn't realize is some of the highest performing, most successful people that I speak to were struggling the most.
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How high achievers?
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Exactly right. And that was like, oh my God, like, I don't know why, I don't know now. It seems obvious why that, like, but at the time I was like, I would see you, you know, you're incredibly, your career and things you're doing. So when you shared your story with me, I was like, wow, are you really? And then I would share my story with people around me. They're like, you Chris, you seem so like, you know, like, you know, I never would have known that. Right. And then the more I can went down that rabbit hole with Chester and others, I was like, wow, like, So I want to actually explain the picture of the book. Okay, great. Yeah. Because there is, I was actually driving through the, through British Columbia a few years ago. And it was during the largest like wildfires, like in the last year or so, like ever. Okay. So lots of wildfires in Western Canada. And we were driving through British Columbia and we saw some of the. Like land that had been.
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Torched by this wildfires and we stopped to. Just get a closer look. And I saw this tree. That was half charred and burnt. And half alive. I'm just like mesmerized by it. Like, how can you be? And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like half alive and half dead at the same time. And.
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I would. This is good analogy.
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I achiever as a high functioning individuals. Like you're, you're kind of like, you're just operating at this pace and at this speed and just functioning at this really high level. But at the same time, there's a big part of you that is like. Numb and exhausted and empty. And you can't reconcile the two. And you can't figure out why or how to get out of it. And that's why a lot of times people will try to like change jobs or take a break. But there is this other, this like inner system at play and that inner system is your belief around success and achievement. That is the bit that I think for me, that was a big moment where I was like, I, I was putting that. So much pressure on myself. That like, and I love becomes from childhood as well. I mean, if you could do a whole show about that. Of getting into it and like that. Or you can read the book because you're in the property. Oh yeah.
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I mean, that wasn't a plug. That wasn't a plug. That wasn't a say. But I, I, I, I, I, I, a lot of those sort of beliefs, I was putting on myself like I was like, and doing not so much pressure and like my wife would always say to me like, Chris, like when's enough enough? You said that when we get here, that my benchmark was benchmark for success. Just like never ending. Yeah. And that's human nature. That's hedonic. No, that's like you're going every time you achieve something, you're naturally going to set that as a baseline. Then you're like the next thing and the next thing. And that's not the interest never ends until you actually excavate your belief system around success and achievement. And that's the thing that was the thing to, you know, you can change jobs, you can change sectors, you can take a break. But if you don't get to that root cause of what you believe,
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you're just going to, you're going to. Yeah. Or like what I realized the hard way, which I'm still working on is scaling the systems and support around you as you go through that. So like, I mean, so I didn't do that. Like I was scaling and doing more and building the company, but I didn't build any systems or framework or foundation actually whatsoever to help me do that. Also requires you to ask for help and to ask for help. And yeah, and high performers are not really good at that. I admit that you need that. High performers aren't that great at that either. Because I was always told you keep that to yourself. And unfortunately, you know, even my family, my mom would be like, you don't talk about stuff like that to people. You know, that's like a sign of weakness. And so I didn't know that. So like when I was having, you know, anxiety attacks, panic attacks, I was like, Oh, I can't tell no one this because then I'm not going to get that promotion or my team is not going to respect me or even down to the point where for years when I was, you know, my wife didn't even know. So I would make excuses of why I'm not turning up to events or why I'm not getting out of bed or I was just lying. And I was like, Oh, I don't want her to think less of me. She may have seen me as a weak man or my daughter to see that, like, you know, my friends. And then little do I know when I speak to you and other people that, Oh my God, like everyone around me is also suffering, but none of us are talking to each other. Like one of the things that I think we talked about, this is like, just, we need to stop pretending and having the honest conversation. But this is where I saw these patterns, right? And I asked when we were, I was interviewing, you know, many folks and successful people around the world about success and connecting the, our belief systems around success and achievement to the burnout pandemic. There was these reoccurring beliefs that were the undercurrent. And one of them, for example, is around hard work because we have, um, created this entire narrative that hard work is always knowable, right? You put your head down and you pull your bootstraps up, you just work hard. And we actually perpetuate the idea that hard work is the different, like you're differentiator. If you, if you love what you do and you work hard, that's all you need. It's actually not true. Like hard work is not the differentiator of success. Um, there's a lot of people in the world that are probably working harder than you and I will ever work or have worked, and they're not going to have the same kind of economic achievement that you and I would have. It's access in the relationships that actually is the greatest differentiator of success, but we convinced ourselves that it's hard work. So if I think that I have to work hard to succeed, then I believe that, and I've told that that is the differentiator of success, but I'm going to keep. Martyrin myself. Yeah. Through hard work. And so there's a series of these beliefs. The other one is around, um, just his purpose. Like the other thing I, now I cringe and I have to admit, like I probably told people this before is that if you love your job, if you have purpose and you know your why, then, um, that's, that's all you need. But we actually know now that that's actually makes you more susceptible to burnout. So, and purpose doesn't take the labor out of. Is that why is that?
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Because you love what you do. Or you believe so much in what you do. You're more likely to murder yourself. So you use it as a, to justify. Why I'm working so hard. Why I'm not. Okay. Humanitarian workers, social workers, nurses, doctors, burnout people. Yeah. Some of the most burnt out, even clergy reserve research for people who are clergy, um, 41% giving everything, giving, yeah, they give everything for the cause and they result in excessive burnout and martyrdom. And because they believe in the purpose. And they're not. So it makes you, so it's again, purpose does increase your engagement and your enjoyment of the work, but it also makes you more susceptible to burnout because of. Because of what you believe. It all comes down to, there's two loops. That's what I call it. The systems around burnout. There's the inner loop, which is our belief systems. Many of which were given in our youth and we never questioned because, and here's the thing, Chris, like. We're taught to think about food in a way where like you can have a
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healthy relationship with other people or an unhealthy relationship with other people. You know, there's all types of substances where you can have a healthy relationship or an unhealthy relationship, but with work, we're not thought, we're not taught to think about work as something that could be unhealthy. Mm. And you can have an unhealthy relationship with work just like you can't have an unhealthy relationship with food or other folks. And so it's really about understanding that work can be this work itself is not.
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The enemy, it's not the villain. Mm hmm. It's your relationship with work and achievement that either can be healthy or it can be harmful. Yeah. How much of that is the organizational responsibility versus the individual responsibility? Yeah. So it's the same thing as I used food as the analogy in the book as well. Right. So if you have a food desert where there isn't access to healthy food, there's no fresh produce and, you know, that all there is in that community is fast food. And so if you have a food desert where there's food desert, then of course there's society and the people involved in that locality have a responsibility to the fact that there's no access to a healthy, nutritious food. And then obviously there's an individual who's responsible for what they're eating and whether or not they're exercising. And so it really is like both sides, society organizations and individuals have a responsibility. And if we think about it, I think for major things like, you know, food, work environment, these are huge systemic parts of our lives. It's not the situation is not going to fall on just one side of the equation. It's going to, it's really like, it's all sides. Yeah. Talk about the burnout loop. Yeah. So the burnout loop is the pattern that I saw in all of my interviews. So basically you're, it starts in your youth and you are raised again, I think very much unconsciously unconsciously with these belief systems that work, success and achievement. And then you go from your young, your childhood and you go into work culture and then work culture and hustle culture reinforces those belief systems. And some of those belief systems are like hard work is always noble, but if you love what you do, then you'll never work a day in your life. Right. We've all heard that before or that, you know, your worth is tied to how much you produce. This is the productivity. And we talked about that when we said, you know, uh, you know, identity, your identity is tied to what you do. And so all of these systems are built in how we're raised as young people. And then you go into the work, you go into the work world and they're reinforced, right? The reinforced because there are social belief systems. And then basically you create this narrative in your head where you basically martyr yourself because that's the story in this belief system that you have until you get to a point where something happens, something horrible happens, you get sick. Yeah. Or your partner comes to you and says, I don't like who you are anymore. Yeah. Or, you know, and that's the intervention moment moment. And it's not the moment that often people then try to reconcile the way that their relationship would work, but they don't know what to do because, and this is the reason why when we say, well, you just spent me better boundaries, you're basically telling me to put better boundaries around myself.
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Yeah.
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Because you're like, I'm the reason I'm, you know, my belief system and my relationships with my relationship with work is really a big part of it. So how do I do that? How do you, you can't really do that unless you think differently about your relationship. And I think that's a big part of it. I think that's a big part of it. For you.
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How did that show up? In your career. What was that moment for you? Because we all have our moments, right? That happens. Yeah. I mean, my.
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Intervention moment. Yeah. That was what I call it. I mean, there was multiple. I don't have to admit like it wasn't just one. It's true. Like there's some science. Yeah. There was multiple moments where.
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I couldn't. I wasn't like.
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I couldn't separate. I'm really capable. I'm disciplined. You know, I can do so many amazing things yet. I can't manage this thing. My relationship with work in a healthy way where I can do my work and it's not. You find people try and like, that's part of it. They like, they're trying, trying to manage it the same way. They're managing. And it just didn't make sense to me. So I, you know, that's why I wrote the book is because I'm like, how do I renegotiate my relationship with work so that I can be ambitious? I'm not, cause I'm not a, I don't believe this is an mantra for like not being ambitious and wanting to. Yeah. Of course. But do it in a way that is sustainable. So, um, the best, like there's just been a lot of little moments over, over the last, I would say 10 years that have helped me start to put that piece of those pieces of the puzzle together. And now I think about like work sprints and how do I think about work load and load management. And one of my favorite parts when I was doing the research in the book is I thought about like, okay, who knows how to manage their load?
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Really, really well. Okay. Athletes.
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So I went to sports scientists and I started interviewing them about load management and how do you actually increase your endurance and your performance without injury? Cause that's what a sports scientist does. Yeah. Cause it's like a fine balance between training over training cause they don't need that. They can't be injured for the race. They can't be over like overexertion beforehand. So it's like, And so it's like this, it's this, they've actually gotten this down to a science. It's like increasing endurance, increased your performance without injury. That is what it's worth. Yeah. So like how do you translate that to a knowledge worker or to the everyday worker? And it is about like intentional load management throughout your life, but load management is not just work. It's your parental load. Everything. All of it. Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean,
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Do you, that's a lot to take on though. Like, I mean, I mean, sorry, not taking on that. That's a big mindset shift. It is a huge mindset shift.
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But that's what I want. I want us to have this life because that's what's going to take for us to like actually address the problem is to teach people how to think about load in their life. And then I think systemically, like societies, governments and organizations can need to do their part as well. Obviously. Yeah.
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I think we, we spoke about this before.
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So the definition of what success is. So early, because I grew up, you know, single parent, four kids, council block, you know, tough. So my definition of success was only related to money. So having money, cause we don't have any means success. And like I said earlier, the more I chased that, the more I was like, why am I not happy?
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What like, what's wrong? Right. Or the next job title in workplaces, many people was like, I'm finally there. Cause I've reached this level. right to be that and I think the moment for me that changed all that was when I became a dad right because from there for the first time ever it no longer became about me I was like I was living for Tasha my wife and Robin and my definition success now meant being the best dad and being the best husband and yeah I worked really hard and to make money so that I can show up and Chester always say to me probably it's wrong but you would always say Chris that no amount of success at work makes up for fair your home right I remember the first time he said that to me really nearly made me cry like I'll get emotional things about a man it hit me because I remember it kind of called me out on all my bullshit because at the time I was justifying all the reasons I'm not showing up it was all bullshit you know I was like oh I can't do this because of that because of this because I mean he was like what's the point then if you're not there for Natasha if you're not there for Robin if you're not present if you don't do all of these things then what's the point and it was just like I needed someone just to say it you know and it was hard and I also made me realize that for the longest time Natasha like my wife I haven't really I'd like appreciate her like I mean on the inside I have I never verbalized to her how much I appreciate everything that she's been doing and holding it down whilst I do this right so I think that's changed a lot of my like one now talking about my anxiety and my burnout I've been great like I haven't had a panic attack in years like since then because I actually have an amazing you and Chester and Shane who I can talk to about I've been in to like this understanding that like my side my success isn't connected to yeah so you just named two of the myths so okay not surprising because this is the pattern that everyone talks about so the fulfillment myth is one of them which is this idea that the next title or a hundred thousand dollars a million dollars or a certain number is gonna make me happy and we know again you know each of these myths I debunk through science and psychology but also through the lived experiences of the people that I'm in yeah so we know what do we know we know that money actually increases your lifespan so you'll live longer but it does nothing for fulfillment so and that makes sense and it but let's be honest so that's hard for many people to believe I know but you know I mean like when you tell someone hey if you make more money doesn't mean actually how do I assure like you know like but I can tell you first-hand it is I've met people that are literally billionaires like one of my someone I know very well who's really struggling yeah and you're like really sure but it is not as simple as that I mean obviously like there's there's different like levels and degrees of it if someone's literally like struggling and suffering and of course yeah and the other myth you talked about is the martyr myth which is the idea that for me to be successful I have to murder something yeah I'm building a legacy or I'm building intergenerational wealth or I'm building and you know whatever for my family for this for that and so you use these narratives to kind of justify why it's okay to murder yourself yeah so what are some practical things that everyone listening yeah right now can take away and do because they're probably thinking great now what the very first thing is you need to redefine success across the domains of your life so right now often when we ask people about success it is largely work related or related because they've tied their identity to that so actually ask people to define success across the domains of your life so you've already done it in the sense of your relationships but there's more to that like because the other thing about when you define yourself primarily by relationships and a lot of women do this by like their relationship with their kids what happens when your kids leave oh you see the chart you know yeah a hundred percent so you the one when someone retires or someone who's there oh so one of the things that you don't want to have your identity into in too few places this multidimensional identity and differentiate really diversifying your identity to say success for me means this in relationships and this in kind of financial means and this in you know when it comes to my inner and you know always yeah or this in terms of things that I enjoy and who I am and so that gives you the most resilience as a human being throughout your life because inevitably your children will grow up and leave home your job will end you know life you know there's a lot of curve balls and so really not tying your identity to any one of those things and so one of the things that I've learned to do is really hold my work because I really enjoy work and I enjoy the work that you and I enjoy the impact but holding it at a distance a pretty really healthy distance from who I am I see my work and I appreciate it and I enjoy it but I don't allow it to become a source of identity for me so that that is like one really important thing and then defining how I want to be across the domains of my life so there is this exercise that I have in the book where you define how you want to be not what you want to do how do you want to be and so I want to be a present and regulated and happy mother that's how I want to be so then when I have choices in my life I ask myself does this allow me to be that way mm-hmm and that starts to become like a compass I can decide if this thing that I want to do is actually gonna move me closer to who I want to be or further away from it I love that and so and that lens just it's such a it's such a clarifying lens to be able to make choices especially when like there's so many things coming at us yeah for different directions to having to okay look at that is this moving me closer towards that or further away cool like it's pretty easy to make it a lot easier to make a decision to be able to do that and I started doing that a lot with opportunities that come up every day there's a new thing that we can do in the business a new thing and I'm like I'm like I my first reaction is to jump straight and say yes and one of the things I've learned over the years is to say no yeah and actually that's actually not as easy as it sounds because there's more money over there or more opportunity or more you know something exciting a new shiny thing and it's like one of my biggest growth areas that she is the ability to say no and this is actually so I find this especially for young people right now and I speak a lot at universities and there's never been a moment in time where I think there was as much choice professionally and from career perspective as there is today I mean if you go back like 50 years 60 years what were your choices like you yes Pacific like when you were at school you did this this or this your occupational options were quite limited yeah yeah now you've got like side quests and side hustles and you know gig economy there's creative panoras and there's so many panoras it's like it's so overwhelming just the choice and then there's the fear of like do I make the wrong choice and then what does that mean and you know for my career and there's just so much stress around that like career choice but there's one other thing that I want to share that is really important that helps and it goes back to the sports science of what I learned from the sports scientists that I interviewed because an athlete has a team around them and when I was interviewing the head of sports science at the society in Canada what she said is that a lot of times that team will sometimes see this the athlete notice something in the after the athlete notices it themselves right yep and so again this goes back to the greatest thing that's gonna create resilience is this multi-dimensional identity but it's also your relationships and support system so you know the book the giving tree have you read that book no I've heard about it okay there it's about a tree and a little boy and the boy uses the tree for its leaves and it's trunk and it's all these types of things at the end the boy turns with an old man it is leaning up to this tree but at the end the trees there's something left of the tree but it's don't because the tree has basically sacrificed itself for the boy and at the end the tree says and she was happy because of course tree is a girl so I used to read this book and if you guys read it read it just for the context and think oh beautiful story of love and sacrifice now read this book and I'm like oh my god the tree needs boundaries yeah you can love someone without losing yourself and so actually we have this narrative in my house when my daughter sees me self-sacrifice or murder myself she'll come up to me she'll be like mom don't be enough that oh no
[01:30:23:14 - 01:32:39:22]
Don't be a stump. Cool. Like, don't be a stump. It's like a mantra. So like, you need someone sometimes to like pull you out. Yeah. And tell you, close your laptop, shut it down. Like, you need that team around you, of people who are just gonna suck you out. When you're struggling with people. Yeah. Shane, my co-founder and my wife Natasha are both really good at that. And we've had conversations around like, I've now said like, if you see that, I want you to tell me. Like, even when I don't want to, right? So it's, and they always see it before you. Even more recently, Natasha's been like, I know you should be coming to bed late. You haven't been going to the gym. You've been snacking and eating late, right? And I'm waiting down where we come up early. And then I'm grumpy. And then I'm not like, and then like, you don't, but then what do I say to her? Well, I've got this work to do. I've got to do it. I'm just, I start justifying it all, right? And I'm like, and- And that's okay for, if you're in what I call a work site. That's audacious, it was out of now. And now I'll even tell, well, we spain that to all of you. But now I'll tell my wife, literally, I'm gonna be in a sprint for like, this FYI. And then she knows, we'll sort out different things for Robin. And like, we'll adjust some stuff. But you can't always be in it. But explain that for everyone. So this is the context around the effort myth. So the effort myth is that work, hard work is the key to success. We know that that's not true. Effort is important. You can't be successful without it, but it's not the differentiator of success. So the, how do we think about effort and hard work then, if we know that it's not like, what's the alternative mental model? So Mark Randolph, actually the one of the founders and first CEO of Netflix, it gave the perfect analogy. He basically said, think of a triathlon where everyone is jumping into the water at the same time. And so in that first leg, the only way to survive that first leg of the race, because people are like, you know. It's crazy. It's crazy. Whoever watched the one. They're pulling you down, they're elbowing you in the face. The only way to survive that first leg of the race is to swim like your life depends on it. So you're sprinting, sprinting, sprinting until you get to open water. And then when you get to open water, you find a sustainable pace and you, you know, you slow it down. Then the next leg of the race comes and you sprint to get some distance and then you slow it down. And that's exactly the kind of workload management that you have to think about. So my husband and I actually have a workload management meeting. Of course you do.
[01:32:41:19 - 01:32:43:21]
(Laughing) Anyone surprised about that?
[01:32:45:05 - 01:33:06:22]
I feel like I need one by the way. I might touch this upstairs. I actually have, you can download this work. So I want to explain this though because I think this is really important. This is also really important learning for me. So he has, we do a load audit and we write down everything that's on our load. Work, domestic labor, cognitive and emotional, relational, like all of the load in our life.
[01:33:08:00 - 01:33:10:17]
So obviously my list is always like a thousand times longer than those.
[01:33:12:06 - 01:34:10:07]
(Laughing) You come prepared with all that. I know, I know. Well, and then he's like, okay, let me, what can I take off your load? I'm good, I'm like, well, here you can take this, take this, take this. So then I create space. What do you think I do? Add more. Add more. This is what we do. We're awful. My team always says it like my age, like you keep telling me to leave these gaps and then you keep telling me to add stuff to the gaps. So I kinda, I'm like. This is the thing is like, okay, and so, and I always say that you just, I just add more. He takes and I add and he takes and I add. So part of the habit that you need to, it's close back to what you were saying, is like letting things go and really managing like, what is a reasonable amount of load? How much load can I carry and still maintain who I want to be? And figuring that out actually takes some practice. It takes some like, you have to go through it a bit to figure that out. And what I noticed as well though, is during that space when you make space,
[01:34:11:11 - 01:34:37:17]
it's not just about giving, like removing load. It's also about opening up space to think, right? Just to be, just to like, and I noticed like even the two weeks I've had in August, like I was like fighting the team not to go off because I'm terrible. Like the amount of clarity that I had, because I had the space where I woke up in the morning with nothing in a calendar, which I was like, whoa, this is insane. What do I do?
[01:34:38:22 - 01:37:20:08]
But then like all of a sudden I could take a step back and see like all some of the biggest challenges I was facing was personally and professionally, there was clarity there for the first time because they're not in it. So it's so important to make that space as well. And you don't have to have anything planned whatsoever. But we now know like there's research recently and it's just, it's early stages and it's indicative that we know that this like cognitive load is actually having a negative effect on your mind. It's reducing your ability. And this is also, we know this through the law of diminishing return. Once you work 55 hours a week and you know this, you become more irritable, make more mistakes, you become less of a person, what kind of person you wanna be around, yet we still do it. I know, I know. It's the same way with the gym. Like we know what we shouldn't eat, we know we need exercise, but it's like, it's tough. It is tough. It is tough because there's this whole, your whole identity has been built around it. Your business has been built around it. Who you are as a human being has been built around it. Your education. Educational system is built around it. Work culture is built around it. Everything. Everything is built around it. Even the nine to five. Everything. And I'm not suggesting again, I don't report in the book that we just, we should all just sit at home and say, you know, and not work. We need work. Yeah. It's essential. It's a part of, you know, this is so many aspects of our lives, but we need a healthy relationship with work and achievement and success because look at that, I can get you some stay-at-home moms that have this problem, that are, have an unhealthy relationship with work and it would work in achievement. And they're never, they're not in the workplace. Or like you said, creators and entrepreneurs, they're not working, they're working for themselves. And they have burnout rates that are astronomical. And they're putting, they're-- All self-imposed. Handcuffing themselves almost. Like what is it, when you think about the book and getting in people's hands, like what is the really one thing that you hope people take away from the book? It's a system and there are two loops. It's the inner loop, your beliefs, and what you think about work, success and achievement. And it's the outer loop, which is the world that we just described that we live in. And we need to tackle both of them. And obviously for a lot of people, they can't control, they don't always have a lot of control over who their boss is or where they're working, or they don't have the means to be able to change their work environment. And often I think so far in the past, because people didn't feel like they could affect their work environment, they just felt stuck. Like you can affect the way you think in your relationship with work. And there's still things that you can do to create a healthier relationship with your work. So everyone can do something. And that's what I hope, I hope it is at least, it means by which people can have a healthier relationship with work, success and achievement. Yeah, is there anything that we didn't cover that we should have?
[01:37:21:19 - 01:37:26:04]
Make sure, if you don't read the whole book, just read the first chapter, because that's because it's not.
[01:37:27:04 - 01:38:09:11]
Don't read that bit, don't read that bit. There's one thing I do wanna share. There's a bonus chapter at the end. Okay. It's not even a chapter, it's an interview with Ariana Huffington. And we met Ariana, I think, and-- Through the event as well. Through Together. And she's the OG on this. She talked about-- Changed her whole entire life around business, everything. She talked about this relationship with work and success and achievement decades ago. And I don't think, I hope that this conversation just continues to really create a movement, because this is not about demonizing work, and it's not about demonizing workers. It's about thinking differently about success and achievement. And she gives an interview in the back that I definitely wanna make sure. So read the beginning and read the end. (Laughing)
[01:38:10:14 - 01:38:26:06]
Amazing. Well, listen, I appreciate you. And I can't believe we've finally, I mean, just met now. We're LinkedIn buddies from, like, I don't know how long it's been. I was talking to your LinkedIn before you even accepted my invite. Well, that's just so funny, because I think I remember when I became a LinkedIn--
[01:38:27:17 - 01:38:53:10]
What'd they call it now? I don't know what they call it now. But it's like a LinkedIn, it's one of those LinkedIn things where they get a designation and be like-- I was like, how dare you not give me a badge? What's going on? I know. I was like, how did you get one first? And now you just, like, yeah, blown it. I still don't have the badge. But they don't do it anymore. Somebody at LinkedIn, give him a badge. Give me a badge, man. I've been putting in-- Give him a badge. Yeah, that's fine. I mean, at the end of the day, the goal for me and Timothy was just giving back, like, helping as much, like, for me,
[01:38:54:12 - 01:39:56:18]
my goal is just to give as much back to people as possible. Even if one person listens to this today and makes change, it's worth it. I agree. And that's what it's all about. Like, you know, the connection I had with you and Chester, like, completely changed my life. Yeah, diddle. I thought I was struggling in silence and thinking that, like, there was no way out of it. It was hard to be able to do that. So that's why I love having these conversations. And I'm so happy that you're living your purpose now, doing this work all over the world, and you get to do this, and you actually pursued it. Because a lot of people talk about it and they don't actually go and do it as well. So congrats, and I'm so excited for everything ahead. Thank you. Now I get to meet Chris's daughter, I'm really excited. Bye, everyone. See ya. Oh, where can I follow you? Talk to us, where's the website? Yeah, so nebulilson.com, you'll get the link to the book wherever it's sold. Amazing. And as always, wherever you're listening, watch it right now, the link to the website below, book, LinkedIn page, all will be there. Make sure you follow, and we'll see you soon, all right? Thanks so much.
Nabeela Elsayed, author of Breaking Burnout.