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In today's episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we are joined by Paul E. Wolfe, CPO at GLAAD.

Paul shares his journey from customer service to leading HR at major tech companies. He discusses the role of empathy and vulnerability in leadership, the impact of the pandemic on HR, and the importance of human-first leadership. Paul also highlights the power of storytelling and sharing personal experiences to build trust and deeper connections within organizations.

🎓 In this episode, Paul discusses:

1. The importance of empathy and vulnerability in leadership

2. How the pandemic reshaped HR practices and connections

3. Strategies for creating genuine connections with employees

4. The power of storytelling and sharing personal experiences in HR

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Paul Wolfe 0:00

Leaders need to remember that they too are human beings. I think for a long time, at least in the States, there have been lots of leadership classes, leadership facilitated workshops and all this stuff and and when I look back on the ones I attend to my career, a lot of them were amazing at the time where I wasn't my career where I was from an age perspective. But when I look back on a lot of them, they basically were teaching me to be an imposter. Yes, I'm a leader. It doesn't mean I know every I don't know everything. It doesn't mean I'm always right. It doesn't mean that I'm not going to get nervous about a presentation to a board or to a group of employees or whatever the case is. And so I think leaders remembering that they too are humans is really important at that their employees are humans but I think empathy and vulnerability and just looking at people through the eyes of that quote, like be that be curious, not judgmental.

Chris Rainey 0:52

Paul, welcome to the show. How are you? Good. Thank you so much for having me. It's good to be with you. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Thanks for bringing both the color

Paul Wolfe 1:01

and the patterns to the show. I got I got a lot of patterns. I realized that I did not realize that when I chose this shirt this morning. So I love it for me. I love your background, the hex is good and colors is really cool. To have some some vibrancy, some uplifting colors and in the background is important. First, it's been a while since we caught up at how you been How's the family? How's everything? Good. Everybody's good. My husband left for a long, like 20 day business trip to Vietnam this morning. So I'm on my own with the three dogs for the next couple of weeks. So that's, that's interesting. It's always good. It's summer. I grew up in Miami, Florida, where it's warm most of the year. And I live in New York now. So we're just coming out of winter in spring. So this is like my I can be outside shorts and T shirts. So that's very exciting to me.

I have a couple of trips planned. You know, it's all good. It's it's a little bit live in the dream. We'll be in New York and a couple of weeks actually. So we're a couple of us future roundtables taking place. I'll drop your message offline. Absolutely about that. Before we jump in and tell everyone a little bit more about your background and sort of the journey to where you are now. And the what do you do? Yeah, absolutely. So I actually started if I go back early in my career in customer service, I didn't start I didn't grow up in HR, and started learning HR by leading HR at an early stage startup company in Los Angeles, about 20 ish years ago. And then I've been at a couple of tech companies Orbitz, match.com, Conde Nast, a media company, and then the last seven and a half years of my corporate career, we're at Indeed the job search engine, helping them grow from 1000 people to 12,000 people. Also, that was during the pandemic. And so like every HR HR leader, you know, coming up with the playbook of how to deal with a pandemic with a, whether it be a, you know, a domestic population or a global population and trying to figure that out.

I left indeed at the beginning of 22, because I had had an idea for a book, probably for five or six years. And I knew I wouldn't be able to do it while I was working full time, because it is a all all consuming thing to do. So I left and started that process like two weeks later with a co writer. My book came out last March

23. So March of 23, a little more than a year ago. It's called human beings first practices for empathetic and expressive leadership. And now I'm on the board of PayScale, a compensation company. I advise some early stage recruiting companies, I do some fractional Chief People Officer work, speak and advise and kind of that's, that's a bunch of project work that I do now. So that's how we got to today. Amazing. So excited to say that you're living your best life right now. You know, it's it is you know, what I liked? I loved it was I had a little bit of an identity crisis when I left indeed because you What are you like, it was always, always wrapped around, you drove in the polwarth, you know, VP of HR at Conde Nast, there was always this, this corporate identity attached to you and like to steal the most Google term for me or Paul Wolf, indeed. And so I went through that and then I got really comfortable with I love the project work. And so I bounced, like, I've got podcast, this podcast, and then I'm jumping to a meeting with a CEO about what's going on in their company from a cultural perspective. And then later today, I've got a job seeker that just got laid off from a tech layoff and is looking for some advice about how to navigate kind of this interesting job market right now. And so I love the variety that my day brings me now I also selfishly am in control of my calendar

I'm at that point in my career where I very much appreciate that too. I mean, are we happy for you? Honestly, I can and if people don't watching can see it and your smile and your energy and in your voice like that's why I said you're really living your best life because it is you're creating that, um, where did this first connection and fascination with human first leadership

Chris Rainey 5:00

come to life.

Paul Wolfe 5:02

You know, I think it's interesting when I transitioned to HR, this is back like in 1998. So a long, long time ago,

it was HR was different, the people side of things were different companies were different. And then you start to get in and is probably when I was in the early 2000s, kind of mid 2000s, when I started to realize, like, we're dealing with humans, they're not in play. And we always like, as HR leaders, they're our, it's our, it's our group of employees. And like, that's what they are, yes, but that is a title that we've given them, because we've employed them.

They're all individual creatures first, and we're all in the universal truth is we're all human beings first before anything else before any differences, differences of opinion, difference of ethnicity, or culture, or whatever the case may be your language, we're all the same beings.

And, you know, you just start to lead that way. And it's like, how is this going to, you know, if you're coming up with a policy or a procedure or a program like, one, it's good to get, you know, employees feedback along the way, so you're not creating something that doesn't like land well,

and all of their perspectives are really interesting. I mean, and you can talk about it from a diversity, inclusion belonging perspective, but everybody's lived experience is different. And so how they're going to receive information, how they're going to look at a word and what it's going to mean to them, the connotation that's going to come up, I think, is all different. And so I started to lean into that and things start to get, it's gonna, I was gonna use the word easier, but it's not a it's not a good things are still hard. I think they become clearer. And I think the reasons behind why people do things or why they react the way that they do become clear once you get to know them better. And you There's this quote that is attributed to Walt Whitman that I love. But what Whitman didn't say it, it's be curious, not judgmental. And so I think as humans, we're kind of hardwired to look at something and kind of pre judge it a little bit. And there's nothing wrong with that, because we all do it, I find myself doing it. But I think if you kind of stop yourself and like okay, why? Why did they sound different than me? Why do they have a different opinion than me? And you start to ask questions. It's not that you're all going to necessarily agree, but I think you will, it will give you another perspective, and you'll have a better understanding of who that person is and why they think the way that they do. Yeah, I whenever I ask that question about what is human first seizure, I get different responses from different people. So I'm wondering, from your perspective, what's your sort of elevator pitch, as it were, people say what is human first leadership? I think it's leading with empathy, and leading with vulnerability, I think that leaders need to remember that they too, are human beings. I think for a long time, at least in the States, there have been lots of leadership classes, leadership, facilitated workshops, and all that stuff. And, and when I look back on the ones I attended my career, a lot of them were amazing at the time, where I wasn't my career where I was from an age perspective. But when I look back on a lot of them, they basically were teaching me to be an imposter. And so, yes, I'm a leader, it doesn't mean I know every I don't know everything, it doesn't mean I'm always right, it doesn't mean that I'm not going to get nervous about a presentation to a board or to a group of employees or whatever the case is. And so I think leaders remembering that they too are humans is really important at that their employees are humans, but I think empathy and vulnerability.

And just looking at people through the eyes of that quote, like be, be curious, not judgmental, like, just sit down and ask questions. Understand that it's not that two folks that are our diet, they are diametrically opposed on a topic in the in the in the States, unfortunately, right now we have a presidential election or kind of lead up to a presidential election going on, which is going to be contentious.

You know, things have been very become very politicized in the States. And you can have two people sit down one that's a staunch Democrat, one that's a staunch Republican are two political parties here in the States, and just under understand each other better. It's not, it doesn't mean that they're going to convert each other to be Democrat or be Republican. But I think it's just a better understanding of where people are coming from and why they think the way they do and that's why I think empathy and vulnerability are so important to human first leadership. Can you can you write that down because you hear kind of leading with empathy? What does that mean?

I think it's empathy. Trying to put you know, there's, there's the golden rule is treat others like you'd want to be treated. And then there's the platinum rule is treat others like they like to be treated. And I think in order to, to get to kind of the platinum rule, you have to understand them, you've got to understand, you know, a little bit more about them as a human, I think, you know, as I describe humans, as we're all books, we've got chapters and pages and kind of where these, you know, there's these multi layers to all of us and I think you have to start to get through some of that to understand people better and as some people are going to be open to that from the from the get go and they're going to open up and be clear with you and be very transparent others

stead are going to be a little more run us into that because they may not have like, lived in or worked in that type of, of environment before. And so psychological safety is really important to that. But I think as you start to show more of yourself as a human, as a leader, and they start to show more of themselves as a human, you start to make you make deeper connections. As humans, we crave connections and connectivity. And yes, Zoom is great. But like the in person thing is still, you know, the best way of building foundational relationships and growing, growing, growing relationships, I believe, and getting to know people, I think, you know, the simple things like going to have a meal with somebody or going to have a drink or getting coffee with somebody, you start to break down some of the barriers of the office and kind of, you know, hierarchy and things like that, and you just start to understand people better. And I think that's what is kind of really important to this entire thing is, is again, not everybody has to agree, but I think the understanding and respect of people's differences is hugely important. Yeah. And you've already mentioned a few things. But you break down, as you mentioned, to eight practices, because you delve into some of those more, what are some of your favorites that you could share?

I think I think one of my big favorites is share more of yourself. And this is really focused at leaders, you know,

I think we don't,

we don't always share, you know about what's going on our lives and not to guess the people, I will get the question when I talk about OSI are suggesting that the line between like employer employee is gone, like I'm not suggesting that at all that line is still there. If you've got something messy going on in your life, that's not something that I would recommend sharing. But I think sharing experiences that you had, that have formed an opinion of yours or formed, the way you react to things, I think is really important for people to understand, and they're never gonna understand everything, because you're not going to share everything. But I think the more glimpses you can give them to your employees, or even peers, or your boss in that case, into you as a human and how you're like how you're hardwired and why you are the way you are, why you react the way you do, I think is really important.

I think connecting through story is important too. And again, you know, storytelling is this age old, it's been around for eons passing down history and information from generation to generation to generation to generation. And I think it's still important I, you know, I, when I, the speakers I resonate most with are those that will tell me that are telling me a story about something that went on, and then kind of pulling in the pulling through the threads, they want to pull through and get those points across in their keynote or their panel or whatever it may be. And so listening to that, and connecting through storytelling, and I think it's interesting when I've, when I was at Indeed, and I would tell stories about whether it was, you know, my struggles with OCD, or my mom was killed in a car accident 30 plus years ago, and tell that story about how I understand, like, I would always talk about the employee assistance program in the States, it's the benefit we give, and it was very helpful to me, when my mom was killed, you find so many people like that you haven't necessarily connected with like that, when you're the head of HR, they all know you like they all knew who I was, I didn't know all 12,000 of them. But when I would tell those stories in different settings in the appropriate settings, I'd have people that like were, you know, folks that I didn't know, for sales folks in our London office, also in our German office and our Tokyo office, reach out, it's like I had something similar that went on, and there was this new connection that was made. And I understood them a little bit better. And they understood me a little bit better. I think those are the two that kind of stick out the most for me, there's, you know, there are eight of them that we go through in the book. But I think it's just, you know, how you make these new and deeper connections with human beings as a leader and as a person is really important.

Chris Rainey 13:47

Yeah. What is the biggest challenge that you see? Because it because when I grew up, and I had my leadership training and coaching, it kind of goes against the grain of everything you're saying, right? Yes. You're supposed to have all the answers is never you don't you know, you're supposed to be the person that can solve all the problems can we did that that doesn't get nervous, and presentations in all the things you just described. So it feels like I was I was even told actually, by I remember, specifically my CEO being saying, they're not your friends, you don't share stuff with your employees. Anything that you just mentioned, I was told you should never share, you know, or even when I would spend personal time with my employees outside the office of that, why are you spending time with the team? Right? You're you want to manage they work for you? Right? So it's such a contrast to what we've all traditionally been taught.

Paul Wolfe 14:36

I think I think it's time for a change. I think it has been time for a change for a long time because like similar to you. I remember sitting through I was lucky enough to work at GE General Electric when Jack Welch was the CEO and Croton Ville their leader their storied leadership kind of university was was there and I went to four different classes it was rotational program and one of them was this leadership class and basically the exactly what you just said is what they taught me, never let them see you sweat have all the answers, they're not your friends. And I'm not suggesting that you're going to be friends with all of your employees. But I think getting to understand them better. And kind of where they come from, and how they think why they think the way they do and how they approach things, we all you know, if we're, if you and I are locked in separate rooms, and we're given a task to do, chances are, we're going to approach it differently, we may come out with the same end result, it doesn't mean that either approaches was wrong or right, it you really are looking at the end result, but you want to understand how somebody is going to approach something so you can best support them. And I think the, to me, the tide started to change. Before the pandemic, for me, the pandemic was the you know, the pandemic was, yeah, let's be realistic, a shit show and a lot of ways for a lot of people. And you can focus on the negative of it. And I try not to do that. And so it's like, okay, what are the good things that we can pull through, and I refer to these as kind of the silver threads that you can pull through to kind of, you know, the new way of working, and we're, I think we're still trying to figure that out. And one of them is, you know, I was, it was probably we closed when I was in dB, close, early March, all of our offices thinking it was going to be a couple of weeks and then realizing, you know, okay, it's gonna be a couple months, and then it turns into a couple years. And it's probably May or June of 2020, when I was on my umpteenth zoom, because that's all it was all day long. I had these lights on and this mic in my face and this camera on and you know, all day, and I was I saw art in somebody's house that I wouldn't normally it wasn't wasn't a person who was normally in meetings with and I thought about it, I'm like, and I like chatted to them in the in the Zoom chat. And I said, Hey, like who's the artist that painted that picture behind you? I really like it, I'm intrigued by it, I would have never that experience would have never happened had we been in the office. And that's when it started to dawn on me that even though my goal was not to be an imposter, I think we were all forced to be a little bit of an impostor. Because we were in an office setting that it was different than our home. If you think about it, you curate what's in your home. Because it makes you comfortable and you like it. And this is a place that you want to feel most at ease. Because it's your kind of your your physical space. And the office is probably second to that. But it's not the same because it's not the colors you would have chosen the furniture you have chosen, the people you would have chosen is none of that. And so there is a little bit of kind of forced impostor syndrome that goes on there. And so this art thing was the first thing and then I I was doing a, like a multi skip level. And I was talking to an HR coordinator. In the US, it was a Friday before, I don't know if it was a long holiday weekend, or it was in the summer. And we got on and she you know, she was I can tell she was a little nervous. And I'm like, I'm just like everybody else. Like, let's just have a conversation about your work and what you do and what you think. And she's like, okay, she's like, I'm really excited. She goes, but I'm gonna put my earbuds in because I met my mom and dad's beach house. And there's a bunch of people here. So like, I'm just sitting at the kitchen island, you may see people walking around behind me, it's fine. Not a big deal. You know, not everybody has a private space to go into. And we went through all that too. And about halfway through this conversation. There is an older gentleman behind her clearly talking to her, not realizing she has earbuds in and I said to her, I said Christina, I said, I think there's a gentleman behind you who's talking to you and not realizing you have earbuds in so she like whips them out. She turns around and like now I can hear everything that she's saying. She's like, it was her grandfather. She's like grandpa mom with my boss's boss's boss, like, I can't talk and I said no. Let's talk to grandpa. Let's get a little insight and Christina. And I think that these like, there's that was a new connection. Like she was embarrassed. And I told her Do not be embarrassed. Like we've all I've, you know, my grandparents aren't around anymore. I have, you know, nieces and nephews who if they were here would pop into this. If I leave my door open, the dogs will pop in because they want to go outside and play and they get antsy when I'm on, you know, on camera so much. And I said, it's just who you are. It's where you came from, like this, your grandmother. So I started asking my grandfather questions about her and growing up. And I think that it, it's it just gives you have a new view on the folks that you work with. They're humans, and then their director of HR director of finance, or an HR coordinator or the CEO, but we're all like it. We're all the same. And I think we need to, I think it like I think the the G class that I went to in the class as you went to the way that we talked about, we're all good at the time. I think there's a moment in time for everything. And I just think the tide is changing. And this deeper connection with people I think is important. Again, they're still aligned between leader and employee, you're not going to be friends with everybody and divulge everything but if you think about the leaders, if I think about the leaders that I've worked for that I would run through a wall of fire, you know, a ring of fire for those are the people that got to Know Me, and I got to know a little bit better. And we created this relationship that was deeper than just this transactional leader employee relationship. Yeah, you also the others, I likely, you know, the others, I likely want to run through, you know, a ring of fire for. And I think that's, at least for me, as a leader, when I'm working with a team, we're all in it together, and I want a group of people along with me, that's going to do whatever we have to do to get to the goal or achieve the goal that we've set for ourselves.

Chris Rainey 20:29

Yeah, I think it's also because like, when you get an opportunity to understand their lived experience, and you share a bit of yours, when you do have conflict, or hard conversations, or you're Ida Inc, you know, where that person is coming from? Not completely, but you you have a better sense of yes, that person's lived experience what they've been through, it could be family, it could be kids, it could be the fact that their love of painting, wherever maybe you have some sense of connection beyond the job title, the role the project, in allows you to be like, Oh, okay, like, cuz I noticed anything around Shane, Shane, and my co founders, my best friend growing up, like the next door neighbor, right. So when he's given me feedback, I know where that's coming from. Right? Because I know him beyond his job we on the roll? I know, that's where Shane, I know what Shane's heart. I know his his values. And I know that that's where it's coming from. So even if I don't agree with it sometimes, or if we have a discussion, I'm like, I know it's coming from that place. Exactly. changes the conversation completely.

Paul Wolfe 21:31

And I think it's easier to have those heated discussions or have those really transparent discussions, knowing that you each have each other's backs, you trust each other, you believe in each other. And you have a difference of opinion. And that difference of I think differences of opinions, can turn into these terrible employer relations issues when they really don't need to. And it's not that anybody's right or wrong, I think it's just understanding why you have that person has the opinion that they do and trying to get to either some common ground, or at least just a simple understanding of that is really important. And I think so quickly, people turn those things into these big issues that they need to involve HR in and like, you know, it turns into something much more than it needs to be.

Chris Rainey 22:13

Yeah. And isn't it? Do you always get that feeling like me as well, when you have those conversations like, oh, wow, I didn't know that about you. Like, you have that sort of, like, I've known you for two years. And it takes a one off site meeting to spend a day with someone and you're like, Oh, my God, like I didn't know, you learn all these things, you're like, Oh, my God, like, and so one of the things that we do we do, we kind of do like a monthly team day out, you know, and during those team day hours, especially when we're hiring new people, it's like the level of the relationships and bonds that are built in those sort of team activities, or just have fun going out for drinks or whatever it may be, is, you can't even quantify the value. Not that that bring

Paul Wolfe 22:54

you can't put it you can't put an ROI on it. Because it is it's it's it's something unique and different that my connection with you versus my connection with somebody else's, may be completely different because of your the shared lived experience that we have in the shared lived experience that the person that the other person and I have. And, you know, I do as I think we all got, at least that indeed, we all got a little bit more open during the pandemic, because it was we were all in it together. And none of us had ever been through it before. And there were those aha moments where like, something would go out and an email from me and I put something personal in it because we were talking about something, and somebody would ping me and be like, oh, like I had something similar happened to me, here's how I dealt with it. And like you, you make these new connections that you did not realize we had been working together for a while, but I didn't realize we had these other connections until, as a leader, I started to open up a bit and then people started opening up to you. And I think leaders need to create that environment. And so leaders need to kind of mirror the behaviors that we want our teams to, to, to exude

Chris Rainey 23:56

what are some of the some practical things people can do? To kind of I'm assuming this needs to become a habit, something you got to put the reps in? doesn't just happen overnight. Right? So what advice would you give to the listeners?

Paul Wolfe 24:10

I think you know, I'll give you I'll give you a really extreme example. And I'm not suggesting this is for everybody, but it sets the stage for how you can just do simple things. I think a simple thing to do to show vulnerability is you can just say, I don't know the answer to that question, or I don't know how to solve this problem. Let's all kind of you know, sit together and try and figure this out. Like that's a that's as simple as that is showing vulnerability that is making a connection I give you I'll give you an extreme example of vulnerability. We went to work from home. During the pandemic we started weekly q&a, which a lot of companies did and then a weekly email from me which was interesting because I had like an 86% open rate which you typically don't find people wanting to read a an email weekly from the HR leader. It's kind of like the old school newsletter, and, you know, things were going on. It was probably the summer of 2020. And I had been diagnosed with OCD or in the early 2000s. And managing it fine, the pandemic comes, and it starts manifesting itself differently. And so I started trying different drugs with my doctor and my therapist. And for any mental health drugs, you have to like, you know, step up to the right person, the right dosage, and then you have to step down if you're gonna come off it. So it's kind of like just trial and error with with side effects and stuff like that. So I was going through that in the summer. And I had a couple people that weren't on my team that would ping me like, Hey, is everything okay with you? You seem a little different lately. And I was like, you know, I knew what was going on. But they didn't know what was going on. And I'm like, when the HR leader seems different people get a little squirrely about, you know, is there layoff or something, right? They go, they go to the deep, dark places. And so the is probably middle of August of 2020, the internal communications manager that drafted the email for me, she'd send it to me on Wednesdays, it would go out Thursday morning. She sent it to me on Wednesdays, and I'd kind of look at it. And she got really good at understanding my voice and kind of how I like to communicate. And so I'd make a couple tweaks here and there, but usually nothing big. And in this case, this Wednesday afternoon, I sent it back to her and I said, Look, I added these two paragraphs. Can you just wordsmith them for me? Because I am not a writer, I did use a co writer for my book, you know, and make them sound like make sure grammatical errors are, are not there and that they sound like, right. And she did about 10 minutes go by. And she pinged me and she slapped me. And she's like, I'm fine. I've cleaned them up. Are you sure you want to include them in for a minute? I thought like, get should I should I not like this? Like, of course, like, why wouldn't I include them. And they were basically like my OCD and what was going on and what was going on with me and why I may be showing up a little bit differently in meetings. And so that no one out Thursday morning, I was in a bunch of meetings back to back, I had a 30 minute break in the afternoon. And I'm like, Alright, let me go see what like what has transpired. And so I'm an inbox zero kind of guy, like, my husband has to read number on his phone. And it's like 4232 emails saying like, that gives me anxiety. Like, I cannot look at that I will not look at his phone for that very reason. And so I go to my inbox and have like 500 unread emails and like, like, of course, I go to the deepest, darkest place, like something's happened to an employee, and why didn't somebody just call or text me? So then I go in, and I look at my inbox, and it's all you know, the subject line is all our E, Paul's weekly email. And I'm like, oh, no, like, there's something was wrong. And if there was a wrong name, like, you know, and then I started to open them. And it was all it was people with OCD, people with bipolar disorder, like offering support. And it was, that's a very extreme example of being vulnerable. But I had the psychological safety to do that. And I created this, I did it just because I didn't want people to think something nefarious was going on. Because I was a little I've been showing up differently to meetings, and it created all these new connections. And, you know, there were a couple of people that said, Hey, this is the drug I'm on. It's really helpful. And I paint them, I'm like, can we talk about this, like, I'm going to ask my doctor about this and stuff like that. And so I think sharing my lived experience opened up the door to a lot of people to share their lived experience. I think it's simple things like that. It's could be as simple as saying, I don't know, or, you know what, I'm really nervous about this by this presentation to the board. Can I run it past you? And can you give me feedback as a board member would think about or be critical of it and things like that. And I think it's simple things like that. And it's just really, and I know, this is going to sound trite, but it's just really being more human, with your employees, and letting them know that you've got, you know, fears and concerns like everybody else does. Everyone has those and, and opening that up a little bit more telling stories about your childhood is another way it because it shapes who you are and who you are as a leader, and things like that. So I think there's just some simple examples of ways you can start to integrate kind of this human first leadership approach into your normal everyday behavior. Yeah.

Chris Rainey 28:57

Well, firstly, thank you for sharing your story. Right. I think we said earlier about the power of stories, and you just shared such a compelling one, which kind of opened up a whole nother conversation and also gave those other people permission themselves, maybe to be more vulnerable. I'm sure you inspired some people to share theirs, right? Because they were like, Oh, wow, here's someone in the leadership team. Yeah. being super vulnerable right now. Like, I'm also feeling the same way. This is amazing. Right to be able to do that. Yeah.

Paul Wolfe 29:30

And I think sometimes leader as leaders, we forget, you know, it's not a there's a power that we have, even though we don't like to always admit it. And it's, it's what you just said is like, here's what's going on with me. And like somebody a couple days later said to me, you know, they said I need to say thank you and I said for what because I assumed somebody on my team had done something that they were thanking me for and I wanted to make sure the right person got the credit. And she's like, You have no idea what I want to thank what I'm thanking you for. I said no, like you're really done, she goes, thank you for showing us that executives are just like us in your email. And you it was in that moment that I really understood the power of vulnerability and that, you know, other people likely have gone through something similar or can relate in some way shape or form and they may be scared to share it, they don't know how people are going to react to it. And when you when you are in a position of power, for lack of a better word, that goes a long way with with with opening up to people and I think it just creates a different dynamic and a different landscape for you. And I think sometimes leadership becomes a little bit easier in that case.

Chris Rainey 30:36

Yeah. Listen, we can't give away all the other eight secrets book so before I let you go, where can people find you and grab a copy of the book where's the best place polwarth.com

Paul Wolfe 30:47

pa ul WO llc.com is all my information you can buy the book on there read more about human first leadership and about me book time with me. That's that's the place to go. Amazing.

Chris Rainey 30:58

And I'm assuming it's everywhere books, books are Amazon, etc. Every every place online books are sold. Yes, amazing. Well, for anyone listening, as always, you know what I'm going to say the links are already below so. So wherever you're listening or watching right now, make sure you click the link below, grab a copy of the book. Reach out to Paul, honestly, I'm so happy we managed to chat. And I think so many people listening right now are going to take away a lot from the conversation to share their own story, their own journey. And hopefully this will cause becomes a ripple effect that impacts other people's lives. So I appreciate you coming on. No,

Paul Wolfe 31:33

I appreciate you having me. And I think the ripple effect is what I want. Like you can make the world a little bit better just by sharing your story.

Chris Rainey 31:39

Yeah. Well, I think that's a good place to leave it there. I appreciate you coming on the show.

Paul Wolfe 31:42

Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for having me

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