How High Performers Beat Imposter Syndrome at Work
What if the self-doubt holding you back isn't proof of failure, but evidence of growth?
In the most recent HR Leaders Podcast episode, I had an important conversation with Maharukh Dalal🎙️, founder of The Career Accelerator for Women by Maharukh Dalal. She explains how senior leaders can overcome imposter syndrome by closing the internal identity gap, reframing self-doubt into a signal of growth, and shifting self-perception to drive executive execution.
Drawing on two decades of corporate leadership across finance and hospitality, Dalal explains how mindset precedes execution. This conversation offers senior HR and business leaders a clear playbook for mastering the mental side of executive performance.
5 things you’ll learn from this episode:
The psychological gap that stops capable leaders from taking action
A simple two-word shift that instantly turns daily dread into agency
What a 1980 university experiment reveals about how people actually perceive you
The advice Rafael Nadal’s coach gave him during his worst slump that applies to executives
Why relying purely on willpower and discipline eventually fails even top performers
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That is what Arist is building with the first end-to-end AI agent for enablement.
Instead of relying on slow needs analysis, outdated content libraries, and one-size-fits-all training, Arist helps organisations move from guessing what people need to identifying real gaps in real time.
Its AI agents can interview employees, uncover talent gaps, create personalised learning, and deliver it directly through tools like SMS and MS Teams.
Because the future of enablement will not be built by more content or more manual workflows. It will be built by teams that can spot business needs faster, deliver learning that fits the moment, and prove impact.
With Arist, AI agents become a way to close skills gaps faster, improve performance, and help employees get the right learning before the business has already moved on.
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A study that was done, it's called the Dartmouth Scar Study.
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It was done at Dartmouth College in 1980 by a scholar and researcher called Robert
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Kleck.
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He had a group of volunteers that he had professional makeup artists put a
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scar on, and the idea was that they were going to go out into the world and speak
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to complete strangers. So he let that happen, and they came back and he asked
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them to report on their experience. They said, "Well, we felt very judged.
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There was awkwardness. They treated us at a distance.
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Wasn't like the normal interactions we're used to." And that
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would've been interesting in and of itself around prejudice or
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how people with perhaps disfigurement or scars are perceived.
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But here's the incredible fact. Before these volunteers went
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out, these artists actually removed the scar,
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unbeknownst to the volunteers. They were told that they were just touching up the
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scar.
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Oh, so they didn't know it was there.
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The scar was removed.
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It wasn't there. Yeah. Oh, my God.
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They went out into the world thinking they have the scar.
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This is an example of this concept called expectation bias, which is that you see
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the world not as it is, but the way you are,
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which means that our sense of identity is the lens through
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which we see the world.
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Welcome to the show. How you doing?
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Hi, Chris. Great to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
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How are we only now just meeting in person?
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I know. It's been many years in the making, but I'm glad I'm here.
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I feel like we've done so many Zoom calls and had so many great conversations, and
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I feel like every time we have a conversation, I always say to you that I wish we
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recorded that.
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I know, especially the last one. I feel like we were heart to heart, soul
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to soul, just jamming away on this identity idea, which I'm so glad we're here
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to talk about today.
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Yeah, exactly. Before we jump in, tell everyone a little bit more about you, your
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journey to where we are now, and the work you're doing, and then we'll jump into
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the topic of the conversation.
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Absolutely. Well, today I work
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with leaders to help them lean into this notion of identity
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advantage, which is the idea that what's standing between you and your next
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challenge is not a skills gap or a credibility gap, but an identity
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gap. So by seeing yourself as the leader who does the thing you want to do is
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what's going to allow you to become that leader.
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Mm-hmm.
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But before I did that,
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I myself experienced some of those challenges in rising to
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what I wanted to do, which is run my own business as a coach, as an
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entrepreneur. And I was pushing up against these beliefs that weren't serving
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me, which was that I shouldn't have to work this hard.
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If I'm really good at what I do, I should have people coming to me.
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Why is it taking so long?
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I love it.
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And I took a beat and said,
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"Wait a minute.
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Why am I so wrapped up in these ideas and beliefs around why this
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feels so hard?" And I realized it's because I hadn't aligned my
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identity to the thing I was trying to do, to helping others, to
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making an impact, to running a business.
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And the moment I had that insight, it clicked into place that if I saw
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myself as someone who runs a business, who helps other
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people, who gets to be an entrepreneur,
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everything else followed. My actions followed my identity.
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So that was the genesis of the idea and the work I do today.
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Before that, I spent 20 years in industry, in corporate, across
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finance, across hospitality. So I was in Marriott
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for 10 years across 10 different roles, Singapore, the
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US. And before that, I was born and raised in India and
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moved to the US for my undergraduate studies and lived there for 17
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years. So I've worked in many different places and countries and different
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industries, and
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just really excited to be able to marry together my experience with
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what I've seen work across my clients and bring that more broadly to leaders today.
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Yeah. I love the way you described your entrepreneurial journey.
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I can definitely relate to that. I
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feel like there's always an element, for me, of imposter syndrome.
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And I speak to many former executives who start their own
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companies after, become coaches, et cetera, and
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I'll check in a couple of months in, and they really struggle-
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Yeah
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... because they don't have the resources, the team around them, the
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credibility and the buy-in that they had before, and
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they're like, "This is really hard."
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Mm-hmm.
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I speak to many CROs who go into those roles, and
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they're like, "I've done this many sales calls, and I don't have
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any clients." And my response is, "Is that it?
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Is that all you've done?" And they're like, "What do you mean?" I'm like,
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"You do realize that you have to do everything now?"
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Yeah.
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"And you've got to learn all over again."
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Yeah.
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What
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got you here won't get you there, right?
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Exactly.
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Marshall Goldsmith, right? And
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when you started talking about the identity crisis, and I was like, in many ways,
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that's exactly what they're going
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through in that moment.
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Absolutely. And this is a huge passion of mine because you said two things
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there. One was around imposter syndrome, so do I have what it takes?
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Am I good enough to do this? But the other part was
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around not seeing yourself as that person.
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And on the first one, imposter syndrome is not a disease.
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You haven't committed a crime. It's just thoughts.
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Yeah.
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And I have learned how to completely reframe that in a way
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where if I'm not feeling it, that means I'm not challenging myself,
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that I'm stuck in my comfort zone. It's just a sign for me to
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step out and do the hard thing, and you're going to feel it every single time.
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Just like a kid on his or her first day of school, they haven't been in
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that grade before. They're going to feel that.
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We're used to feeling that way about new things, but suddenly when we're all grown
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up, we feel like, oh my God, this is a bad thing that I'm feeling this way.
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But we forget that we've done that our whole life.
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We've done new things every single year of our life.
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So I feel like if we bring that childlike mentality-
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Mm
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... to being an entrepreneur, to being a leader,
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it just takes some of the burden off and allows us to approach it in a more
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lighthearted way.
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Yeah. I see that in my daughter because kids don't have
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that. They don't have the fear of failure.
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They don't care what other people think.
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All the baggage that we put on ourselves.
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I love seeing that freedom in Robin.
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Yes.
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And I'm like, wow, what if we could just live in that moment where she's
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just tackling... She doesn't say this is too hard.
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No.
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They just do it.
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Absolutely.
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And they fail and they mess up and it's just so-- I watch her sometimes and I'm
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like, wow, they're so freeing.
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Yeah.
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Because we used to be like that, and it's almost like as we get older, we kind of--
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I feel like the traditional education system doesn't help because it puts labels on
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what success is.
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Yeah.
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If you can memorize something and write it on a piece of paper-
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Yeah
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... you're smart.
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Yes.
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But not everyone works that way.
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No.
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I don't work that way. I struggled with memorizing and putting it down, but I
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understood the concepts. I could execute on it.
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But that's not how you measure my capability, if that makes sense.
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Absolutely, but what you're saying is that that superpower that children
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have of just
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stepping beyond their doubts, right?
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It's not that they're not feeling the doubt-
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Sure. Yeah
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... or they're not nervous-
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They just do it anyway
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... I have two boys as well, and today, one's going to be on stage
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performing The Three Musketeers tomorrow. The other one's- ...
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going to be doing The Lion King. And what's amazing is that they've never
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felt
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nervous or anxious about performing.
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They've probably felt the nerves, but they don't think of that as some great
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judgment about their ability.
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They don't think their life's going to end if something goes wrong.
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Yeah.
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They're not thinking what we're thinking.
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Yeah, and we were that way once.
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Yeah.
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And
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instead of now seeing it as the opportunity to rise to the challenge, we
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label it things like imposter syndrome.
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Mm-hmm.
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And that this is the genesis of the work is every single leader I
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coached and my own experience of leaving corporate and becoming an
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entrepreneur and a business owner.
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How do we not get rid of the doubt? Because you can't get rid of it, but how do you
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continue to do what you need to do with that doubt?
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And the identity advantage is what helps you silence the doubt and
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do the hard thing, rise to that challenge, despite all the questions you might be
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having in the back of your mind.
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Yeah. You mentioned earlier when you started a company, what was that
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aha moment for you?
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Because you mentioned you were struggling.
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Was there something specific that triggered that? A reflection, a conversation?
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Yeah. I think what happened is I felt
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like I had gained all this knowledge and experience working
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in corporate for 20 years, and that I had all the tools of the trade,
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and all I would need to do is apply that in my new context, being
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a coach, helping leaders. But what I didn't realize is when you're
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in a company, you are focused on doing one thing.
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You're in sales, you're in marketing, you're in operations, you're in strategy.
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But when you're a business owner like we are, when you're an entrepreneur, when you
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help other leaders, you're responsible for all aspects of the business.
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And my mind hadn't quite adjusted to that.
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Yeah.
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I thought my job was to coach other leaders, was to help other
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people rise to their next challenge, not also run
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marketing and finance and sales. And so the aha moment for me was
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when I stopped, and I questioned why did everything feel so
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hard?
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And it clicked into place that it's because I was not seeing
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myself as the owner of the business, as
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the owner of all of these processes.
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I just saw myself very linearly as this one thing-
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Mm-hmm
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... as a coach.
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And it also clicked into place the more I coached other people
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that the reason people are afraid to step into
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that next challenge is because they're not seeing themselves as ready
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for it. They have the capabilities, they have the credibility, they have the
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skills. But until you realize that this is who I am, I am someone
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who, you're not going to feel the natural flow of the
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actions you need to do. So for me, it was reflecting on why I was pushing up on
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those beliefs and landing on this concept that once you align to your identity,
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action follows identity.
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Yeah.
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My next question was on our conversation, that's so crazy you said
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that, that I wrote down action follows identity .
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Why do so many people know what they need to do, yet still
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struggle to take action?
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That is life's work. The gap between what we know and what
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we do, right?
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The knowing-doing gap.
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And that's exactly the identity gap.
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It's we have the knowledge, we have the tools.
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If all it was was just understanding things, we'd all be masters of our
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destiny. We'd listen to all the podcasts and read all the books.
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But until we decide that
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I am someone who does this thing, you're not going to be able to
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close that gap, that gap between knowing and doing.
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Mm-hmm.
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It's when you see yourself that you're able to pull yourself through
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with those actions.
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Because those actions don't come from more effort, more discipline, more structure,
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more willpower, because that's finite.
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After a certain point, that doesn't serve you.
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You can't run a marathon on the idea that I'm going to do this.
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It's not about willpower. It's when you see yourself as the person who puts in the
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work, who does the 10 miles a day to train, and you see yourself as
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for whom that goal is really important-
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Yeah
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... that you're able to have the actions that follow.
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And that's why I say actions follow identity, because when you're now conditioning
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your mind to see yourself as that business owner, as the person who does the 100
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sales calls a day, as the person who sends out those emails, writes the
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content, makes this impact, the actions don't feel hard.
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They're just what that person with that identity does.
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Yeah.
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The more reps you put in, the more I feel like dopamine you
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get along the way, and at a certain point in time, you just become-
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Yeah
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... that is who you are.
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Yes.
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And I shared my childhood story with you-
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Yes
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... with sports, and
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one of the things that I thought about after our call is where that kind of
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started. I don't know where I read this, but it was
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basically a simple quote which said, "Thoughts become
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things."
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Mm-hmm.
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And I was like, "Hmm, interesting." So if I can focus
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on controlling my thoughts
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And be very intentional. I told you as well, which I
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never told anyone, whenever I go to bed,
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I
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imagine,
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visualize, sorry, myself already becoming where I want to go-
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Yeah
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... or the person I already want to be.
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Whether it's this podcast.
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Yeah.
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When I said to Shane, "We're going to build the largest HR podcast in the world,"
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he was laughing at me, like, "Who the hell are you to do that?"
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Or building Atlas, our AI company, which you're one of our
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amazing investors.
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In my head, I'm already that person. I just got to now figure out how to get there.
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By the way, that only came by proving it.
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Mm-hmm.
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Like I told you, right? It started with-
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Mm-hmm
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... basketball at the age of 14. I was like, "What if I spent the entire
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summer
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every single day?" I never played a sport before this, just playing basketball.
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Yeah.
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Every day. All day, every day. And by the end of the summer, I was
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very good at basketball, and everyone was laughing at me, my friends.
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Even my mom was like, "What are you doing?
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You're terrible at this." And I was like, "No, I'm just going to keep doing it.
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Let me just see if I can prove a point."
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Yeah.
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And I made the team, and then that kind of changed my entire life, because after
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that I realized, wow, what if I apply this same
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framework to this? And did it again and again, and my
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identity became,
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I'm good at everything.
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Yeah.
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Sports-wise at the time. And my friends would even say, "Oh, Chris is
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so annoying. He's really good at all the sports."
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Yeah.
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And it became a thing. Even one of my employees bought me a book for Secret Santa
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one year, and it said, "How to be good at everything," because that's what I
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identify as, right? And by the way, I'm not,
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but I still identify as that, if that makes sense.
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Your story is so inspiring, and I haven't stopped thinking about it since we
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spoke about it last week, because it is the embodiment of the work I'm
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doing around designing your identity.
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That's what you did, unbeknownst to you, as a kid at 14.
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You told yourself that, "If I put in the reps,
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I can be good at this." And what that created for you was a positive
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feedback loop.
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Mm.
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That one experiment proved to you that if I just do the hard
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work and put in the reps, I can excel at basketball. I can make the team.
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That can become part of who I am. And then you said, "Wait a minute, what if I copy
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and paste that to other aspects of my life?
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To work, to business, to growing this amazing podcast."
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And the more you do that, the more self-reinforcing it
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becomes.
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Yeah.
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And your sense of self is now a function of your
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ability to do hard things because you proved that with that one experiment, and
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that's the power of this work. As a kid at 14, you were
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able to think of yourself as, "I'm good at everything,"
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and so you became unstoppable. And so by designing your identity at such a
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young age, opened these pathways to you that perhaps wouldn't have been open
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had you not had that realization, which kind of happened by chance for you as an
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experiment.
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Yeah.
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But what if we can do that intentionally, even as adults, and
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prove to ourselves that if I set my mind as being someone who
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does this thing and then I can do it, well, then the next challenge becomes
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possible, and the next challenge becomes possible.
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And you're not limited by your skills or your capability, you're
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limited only by your sense of self and how you can see yourself.
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Yeah. What does that look like in a practical sense, though, right?
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How do we do that? Because for me, and I shared that with you,
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that came from quite a dark place because there was a lot going on at
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home. Don't
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want to get into that in too much detail, but it wasn't a good, safe environment at
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home. Wasn't a great environment in school. I was bullied and stuff like that.
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So that experiment was also as linked to me trying to
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figure out a way-
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Yeah
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... to feel some sense of worth. I just kind of felt worthless.
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Yes.
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And I told you the story of sitting next to my teacher and my mom,
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talking about how behind I am, and how much I'm struggling.
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Mm.
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And basically calling me dumb right next to me, and that
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really hurt. And for years, I carried that weight of, oh, I'm
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dyslexic, right? That was the label-
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Yeah
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... that was put on me. So that experiment was like, maybe if I can prove it
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different.
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Yes.
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But for other people,
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how do they start? Practically, if they walk away from this podcast tomorrow,
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what are some of the steps that they should take to move forward?
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Yeah.
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Let's start with simple things, because sometimes they are the most powerful.
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One of the things that I found really powerful for me, and that I see
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work time and again with the leaders I coach, is that
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if you start with identity, and what I mean by that
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is reframing the things that you do.
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So Chris, give me an example of something that you're doing that's a
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real pain in the neck for you.
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00:17:01.584 --> 00:17:02.744
Right now.
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00:17:05.045 --> 00:17:08.604
All right, this is really random, but last night, writing the
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sales copy for our new website.
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00:17:10.664 --> 00:17:10.825
Okay.
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It's driving me crazy.
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So perhaps right now, you're thinking of it as, "I have to write the
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sales copy for my new website, and it's a real pain in the neck for
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me."
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Yeah.
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What if instead, we reframed it as, "I get to write
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the sales copy for my new website."
376
00:17:28.204 --> 00:17:28.254
Mm-hmm.
377
00:17:29.044 --> 00:17:32.244
And what that does is it gives you agency.
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Instead of saying, "I have to do this because X, Y, and Z,"
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you're telling yourself that I am in charge.
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I am the master of my destiny. This is the identity of the person who
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gets to do these things. I get to X, Y, Z.
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00:17:47.904 --> 00:17:51.544
Another way someone can put this into use very practically
383
00:17:51.604 --> 00:17:55.454
is think of another really big lift that
384
00:17:55.484 --> 00:17:58.484
you're working on, something, sales copy, yeah, it's a pain.
385
00:17:58.524 --> 00:18:00.534
You'd maybe not love it. It's out of your comfort zone.
386
00:18:01.504 --> 00:18:05.224
But something that you have to do day in and day out as part of the role that you
387
00:18:05.264 --> 00:18:06.444
have as the leader of this company.
388
00:18:08.104 --> 00:18:08.484
Oh, wow.
389
00:18:13.204 --> 00:18:14.744
I think just the constant
390
00:18:16.624 --> 00:18:17.704
fires I'm trying to put out.
391
00:18:17.804 --> 00:18:18.044
Yeah.
392
00:18:18.984 --> 00:18:21.004
And I never know. There's no
393
00:18:23.264 --> 00:18:23.924
rhythm or rhyme
394
00:18:25.524 --> 00:18:25.534
to those.
395
00:18:25.584 --> 00:18:27.254
Yeah. These unexpected things-
396
00:18:27.264 --> 00:18:27.534
Yeah, exactly
397
00:18:27.534 --> 00:18:28.984
... you're constantly dealing with.
398
00:18:29.084 --> 00:18:32.704
So perhaps right now you're thinking about it in terms of, "I have to constantly
399
00:18:32.744 --> 00:18:33.724
put out fires."
400
00:18:34.904 --> 00:18:38.144
What about in this work around designing your identity you say,
401
00:18:38.714 --> 00:18:42.254
"I am someone who gets to build a learning
402
00:18:42.344 --> 00:18:45.844
platform that leaders of the world's best companies get
403
00:18:45.924 --> 00:18:47.484
to entrust their people with."
404
00:18:48.924 --> 00:18:49.224
Mm-hmm.
405
00:18:49.464 --> 00:18:53.064
Right? And so putting out the fires just becomes a task.
406
00:18:53.464 --> 00:18:55.024
It doesn't become who you are.
407
00:18:55.053 --> 00:18:55.053
Yeah.
408
00:18:55.084 --> 00:18:58.964
You are not a fire putter-outer. It's just one of the things that you do is you
409
00:18:59.004 --> 00:19:00.214
build the identity-
410
00:19:00.344 --> 00:19:00.484
Yeah
411
00:19:00.494 --> 00:19:04.004
... as someone who gets to build these amazing platforms for the world's greatest
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00:19:04.044 --> 00:19:04.684
companies.
413
00:19:04.764 --> 00:19:06.364
Yeah. Yeah, so it's a
414
00:19:07.344 --> 00:19:07.944
reframe, right?
415
00:19:09.124 --> 00:19:11.624
And a lot of that self-talk,
416
00:19:13.164 --> 00:19:16.024
because a lot of the time is that self-talk is the challenge,
417
00:19:17.004 --> 00:19:17.184
right?
418
00:19:17.424 --> 00:19:21.334
It is, and the more you have done, the more accomplished
419
00:19:21.404 --> 00:19:22.704
you are, and the higher you rise,
420
00:19:23.764 --> 00:19:27.514
that self-doubt gets amplified because the next challenge becomes
421
00:19:27.544 --> 00:19:30.964
exponentially higher. It was hard enough to
422
00:19:31.004 --> 00:19:34.524
do all the things you've done so far, to go to great schools, to get great jobs, to
423
00:19:34.564 --> 00:19:38.114
rise in your career, to become VP, SVP, whatever your current role might be, and
424
00:19:38.124 --> 00:19:41.954
then the next level, you're like, "Oh my God." And I found it again and
425
00:19:42.004 --> 00:19:45.424
again with, again, the leaders that I coach, that no matter who they are,
426
00:19:46.104 --> 00:19:50.074
whether they're a partner at a consulting firm or a MD at
427
00:19:50.104 --> 00:19:53.574
a bank, their next challenge is staring them in the face and they're wondering,
428
00:19:54.444 --> 00:19:55.264
"Can I do this?"
429
00:19:57.684 --> 00:20:01.404
And that's where this identity design work comes into play.
430
00:20:01.524 --> 00:20:05.494
I am someone who can lead an organization because I've
431
00:20:05.564 --> 00:20:07.304
led 200 people already.
432
00:20:07.324 --> 00:20:07.604
Mm-hmm.
433
00:20:07.904 --> 00:20:11.824
And so when you think about your identity of the
434
00:20:11.864 --> 00:20:15.764
work you're trying to do, it dulls out, it quietens, it softens that
435
00:20:15.824 --> 00:20:19.684
self-doubt, and your self-talk shifts from questioning yourself
436
00:20:20.024 --> 00:20:22.764
to reinforcing the beliefs that will serve you towards your goal.
437
00:20:22.953 --> 00:20:26.684
Yeah. One of the things I noticed about from interviewing over
438
00:20:26.804 --> 00:20:30.114
1,000 leaders, and it really stands out to me today,
439
00:20:30.784 --> 00:20:32.344
is that they're all like that.
440
00:20:32.864 --> 00:20:33.013
Yeah.
441
00:20:33.013 --> 00:20:36.344
That some of the highest respected, amazing, talented people, I'm like:
442
00:20:36.404 --> 00:20:40.314
Oh, you also have self-doubt. You also have those
443
00:20:40.324 --> 00:20:42.154
sort of voices that you battle and-
444
00:20:42.584 --> 00:20:42.694
Mm-hmm
445
00:20:42.694 --> 00:20:46.634
... because you kind of see some of those people, even athletes that I know-
446
00:20:46.824 --> 00:20:46.934
Mm-hmm
447
00:20:47.064 --> 00:20:50.544
... as indestructible, but sometimes they're the ones that are struggling the most.
448
00:20:50.624 --> 00:20:51.264
Absolutely.
449
00:20:51.293 --> 00:20:52.714
Because they're pushing themselves-
450
00:20:53.104 --> 00:20:53.504
Yeah
451
00:20:53.524 --> 00:20:53.654
... to the limit.
452
00:20:53.664 --> 00:20:55.854
Have you seen the new Rafael Nadal documentary yet?
453
00:20:55.924 --> 00:20:57.344
No, but I've heard good things.
454
00:20:57.524 --> 00:21:01.244
I adore him. We've actually named our dog Rafa after Nadal,
455
00:21:01.644 --> 00:21:05.164
which is a compliment to him. And it
456
00:21:05.444 --> 00:21:09.244
really struck me what he and his coach
457
00:21:09.304 --> 00:21:09.964
talk about.
458
00:21:11.324 --> 00:21:15.224
He had two of the most difficult years of his career in 2015
459
00:21:15.244 --> 00:21:19.224
and '16. He had been world number one, and then his rankings
460
00:21:19.264 --> 00:21:20.464
were dropping.
461
00:21:20.474 --> 00:21:21.024
He got injuries.
462
00:21:21.164 --> 00:21:24.884
Exactly. He was struggling with injuries, and he brought on Carlos
463
00:21:24.924 --> 00:21:26.464
Moya as his new coach.
464
00:21:27.404 --> 00:21:27.664
And
465
00:21:28.604 --> 00:21:32.164
the one thing that his coach, Carlos, said to him is, "Rafa,
466
00:21:32.784 --> 00:21:35.024
remember who you are."
467
00:21:36.384 --> 00:21:36.554
Right?
468
00:21:36.684 --> 00:21:37.224
Identity.
469
00:21:37.624 --> 00:21:41.184
Which is about not becoming something you're not.
470
00:21:41.564 --> 00:21:45.254
You are the person that has won these 16 Grand
471
00:21:45.344 --> 00:21:48.184
Slams already. You are world number one.
472
00:21:48.244 --> 00:21:51.464
You've been world number one, and yet you stop to question
473
00:21:51.504 --> 00:21:55.124
yourself. So what about the rest of us mere mortals, right?
474
00:21:55.144 --> 00:21:57.414
That have never won a Grand Slam or a tennis tournament.
475
00:21:58.624 --> 00:22:01.824
Having those self-doubts is human. When we stop having them, we stop being human.
476
00:22:01.904 --> 00:22:02.144
Yeah.
477
00:22:02.184 --> 00:22:06.124
But these champions of industry or sport have found
478
00:22:06.184 --> 00:22:10.124
a way not to stop the self-doubt, but to be able to do what they
479
00:22:10.144 --> 00:22:13.954
do with that doubt and turn that into a superpower through
480
00:22:13.984 --> 00:22:15.144
identity design.
481
00:22:15.204 --> 00:22:15.364
Yeah.
482
00:22:15.384 --> 00:22:18.354
The same thing with "Lion King." I was reflecting on that on the way here today,
483
00:22:18.384 --> 00:22:21.484
that the one thing that... You have children, you've probably seen the movie, but
484
00:22:21.494 --> 00:22:25.184
Mufasa says to young Simba when he's lost in the wilderness
485
00:22:25.244 --> 00:22:28.924
is, "Simba, remember who you
486
00:22:29.024 --> 00:22:29.264
are."
487
00:22:29.344 --> 00:22:32.724
He does, yeah. I feel like I remember
488
00:22:33.624 --> 00:22:36.604
when I first got into sales, I had a bit of
489
00:22:37.964 --> 00:22:41.884
confidence issues, and I remember
490
00:22:41.944 --> 00:22:44.704
the words in one of the training, which was like, "Act as if."
491
00:22:45.024 --> 00:22:45.344
Yes.
492
00:22:45.924 --> 00:22:47.964
Right? And I was like, "Oh, it's just like some fluffy-
493
00:22:48.104 --> 00:22:48.194
Yeah
494
00:22:48.524 --> 00:22:51.784
... technique. It's not going to really..." And I started to try and embody that on
495
00:22:51.824 --> 00:22:55.344
my calls, acting as if I was already the best salesperson in the company.
496
00:22:55.884 --> 00:22:59.864
I was the guy that was closing the deals, and this client on the call,
497
00:23:00.344 --> 00:23:01.754
I'm an advisor to them, right?
498
00:23:01.754 --> 00:23:01.794
Yeah.
499
00:23:01.794 --> 00:23:05.584
Because rather than me talking up to a
500
00:23:06.004 --> 00:23:08.544
client being like, "Please give me your money and buy the product"-
501
00:23:08.684 --> 00:23:08.694
Yeah
502
00:23:08.694 --> 00:23:10.424
... I kind of was like, "What if I switch that around-
503
00:23:10.884 --> 00:23:11.284
Yeah
504
00:23:11.354 --> 00:23:14.004
... and become more of an advisory role and ask..."
505
00:23:14.504 --> 00:23:14.674
Mm-hmm.
506
00:23:14.824 --> 00:23:17.634
And it was nothing different. It's just my mentality on the call-
507
00:23:17.704 --> 00:23:17.714
Yeah
508
00:23:17.764 --> 00:23:21.464
... and then that came across in my tone and the way I acted in the conversations.
509
00:23:21.494 --> 00:23:24.684
And then all of a sudden they're like, "Oh, thanks for your advice." And I'm like,
510
00:23:24.784 --> 00:23:28.144
"What?" I was like, "I think, yeah, I think that's a great suggestion."
511
00:23:29.024 --> 00:23:32.624
And there was no difference. The only thing I did is I had that
512
00:23:32.684 --> 00:23:33.504
training, and it was like,
513
00:23:34.444 --> 00:23:35.914
fake it till you make it, act as if.
514
00:23:35.964 --> 00:23:35.974
Yeah.
515
00:23:35.974 --> 00:23:39.424
And I was thinking, "How's that going to change anything?" But the
516
00:23:39.464 --> 00:23:43.433
perception of the customer on the phone was like, "Oh, this is someone
517
00:23:43.504 --> 00:23:46.264
who actually know..." And I didn't know what I was doing.
518
00:23:46.324 --> 00:23:46.544
Yeah.
519
00:23:47.004 --> 00:23:50.144
But I kind of realized that you don't have to.
520
00:23:50.384 --> 00:23:54.024
This idea that you have to have all the skills and
521
00:23:54.064 --> 00:23:55.304
everything's figured out,
522
00:23:56.184 --> 00:23:57.304
you'll be chasing that forever.
523
00:23:57.364 --> 00:24:01.264
Yeah, absolutely. And you may not have had the skills figured out, but what you
524
00:24:01.324 --> 00:24:04.604
have figured out is your goal. You wanted to be a
525
00:24:04.684 --> 00:24:07.804
successful salesperson. You wanted to meet your targets.
526
00:24:07.844 --> 00:24:11.824
You wanted to outperform. And so you aligned with that
527
00:24:11.864 --> 00:24:14.764
identity. I am someone who is a successful
528
00:24:15.044 --> 00:24:15.904
salesperson.
529
00:24:16.004 --> 00:24:16.124
Yeah.
530
00:24:16.404 --> 00:24:18.084
I am someone who meets their targets.
531
00:24:18.144 --> 00:24:18.364
Yeah.
532
00:24:19.148 --> 00:24:21.848
And your actions aligned with that identity
533
00:24:21.868 --> 00:24:23.388
It's crazy how it happens, honestly.
534
00:24:23.398 --> 00:24:26.148
And so you weren't faking it till you made it.
535
00:24:26.188 --> 00:24:30.128
You said, "What do I need to be? What do I need to do to be that
536
00:24:30.168 --> 00:24:33.948
successful salesperson?" You're like, "Well, I need to act as a trusted advisor."
537
00:24:34.588 --> 00:24:34.728
Yeah.
538
00:24:34.798 --> 00:24:38.608
"I need to give other people confidence in the advice I'm giving them,
539
00:24:38.988 --> 00:24:42.568
and this is what that looks like." So I would just draw a distinction there that
540
00:24:42.708 --> 00:24:44.428
you didn't fake it till you made it.
541
00:24:45.848 --> 00:24:45.888
Yeah.
542
00:24:46.008 --> 00:24:47.468
You embodied-
543
00:24:47.668 --> 00:24:47.758
Yeah
544
00:24:47.828 --> 00:24:51.748
... who you wanted to be, and your actions were
545
00:24:51.908 --> 00:24:55.088
very aligned with that identity.
546
00:24:55.408 --> 00:24:55.588
Yeah.
547
00:24:56.428 --> 00:24:59.578
I think what I found is when you align with that identity,
548
00:25:00.228 --> 00:25:03.178
your subconscious mind finds ways-
549
00:25:03.568 --> 00:25:03.578
Mm
550
00:25:03.578 --> 00:25:05.648
... of helping you.
551
00:25:05.708 --> 00:25:05.888
Yes.
552
00:25:06.088 --> 00:25:07.268
I can't explain it.
553
00:25:07.348 --> 00:25:08.068
Right. Yeah.
554
00:25:08.108 --> 00:25:11.408
The amount of times that I've... What seems like...
555
00:25:12.148 --> 00:25:12.668
I'll give you a...
556
00:25:13.668 --> 00:25:16.748
You're making me think of such random stories from when I was in London.
557
00:25:16.968 --> 00:25:16.978
I love it.
558
00:25:16.988 --> 00:25:19.988
So me and my friends were dancers growing up, and we wanted to
559
00:25:22.008 --> 00:25:24.488
teach after-school clubs, break dancing.
560
00:25:25.588 --> 00:25:28.848
But there was no money, and so I was trying to get hold of the local council
561
00:25:29.668 --> 00:25:33.448
to get hold of the person who's in charge of all of the budgets for all the
562
00:25:33.488 --> 00:25:36.028
schools in Newham, where I grew up-
563
00:25:36.458 --> 00:25:36.458
Mm
564
00:25:36.458 --> 00:25:39.008
... because I knew there was someone who controlled that budget.
565
00:25:39.028 --> 00:25:42.448
And I was 17 years old, and I was researching on the
566
00:25:42.888 --> 00:25:46.248
government website, trying to find emails, and I wrote a template, right?
567
00:25:46.298 --> 00:25:48.267
And I was just going to send it in, be like, "This is who we are.
568
00:25:48.368 --> 00:25:50.008
We've got a company called Dance Intelligence.
569
00:25:50.498 --> 00:25:53.708
We'd love to do dance after-school clubs." And I was really
570
00:25:54.668 --> 00:25:56.348
trying hard. I had no idea what I was doing.
571
00:25:58.108 --> 00:25:58.928
I jump on the train.
572
00:25:59.758 --> 00:26:00.888
There's a woman on the train,
573
00:26:01.768 --> 00:26:05.268
and she drops her shopping on the train, on the DLR, on the way home.
574
00:26:05.328 --> 00:26:08.438
I go and help this woman. I help her off the train because she's struggling, so I
575
00:26:08.508 --> 00:26:11.678
actually, then the train leaves. But I was like, "Dude, let me help her off,"
576
00:26:11.788 --> 00:26:11.948
right?
577
00:26:12.228 --> 00:26:12.408
Yeah.
578
00:26:12.788 --> 00:26:16.648
That woman was the head of the budget for
579
00:26:17.348 --> 00:26:20.548
Newham Council. And I'm not a religious person-
580
00:26:20.828 --> 00:26:20.838
Wow
581
00:26:20.838 --> 00:26:24.168
... but I was like, "This is insane." And we ended up working with them.
582
00:26:24.548 --> 00:26:25.588
But I was like,
583
00:26:26.448 --> 00:26:28.308
that's... To this day-
584
00:26:28.338 --> 00:26:29.408
That is an unbelievable story
585
00:26:29.477 --> 00:26:31.188
... I have no way to explain that, to this day.
586
00:26:31.388 --> 00:26:34.708
I mean, there is no explanation. It is nothing short of a miracle.
587
00:26:34.928 --> 00:26:38.618
Yeah. It's crazy, right? And I was like, what if I didn't
588
00:26:38.688 --> 00:26:39.808
help her-
589
00:26:40.588 --> 00:26:41.028
Yeah
590
00:26:41.168 --> 00:26:44.848
... in that moment? Anyway, I've never mentioned that before, but that really
591
00:26:45.428 --> 00:26:46.007
took me back.
592
00:26:46.168 --> 00:26:49.977
Yeah. That is a beautiful story, but it also speaks to your point of when you
593
00:26:50.068 --> 00:26:53.548
are aligning with that identity and those beliefs, your brain...
594
00:26:53.588 --> 00:26:55.278
There's actually a scientific term for it, the
595
00:26:56.568 --> 00:26:57.548
reticular activations-
596
00:26:57.648 --> 00:26:57.808
Yes
597
00:26:57.818 --> 00:26:58.718
... in the brain, right?
598
00:26:58.768 --> 00:26:59.138
Yeah. I'm with you.
599
00:26:59.138 --> 00:27:00.548
Like the bouncer at the door.
600
00:27:00.558 --> 00:27:00.558
100.
601
00:27:00.568 --> 00:27:03.208
It's only scanning for the things that you want to let in.
602
00:27:03.248 --> 00:27:04.968
Mel talks about, Mel Robbins talks about that as well.
603
00:27:04.977 --> 00:27:06.908
Yeah. She talks about the Bronco. If you're in the market for a car-
604
00:27:06.928 --> 00:27:07.018
Yes
605
00:27:07.018 --> 00:27:08.398
... you suddenly only start scanning for that.
606
00:27:08.408 --> 00:27:09.648
Or if you want a red Ferrari-
607
00:27:10.018 --> 00:27:10.018
That's what I mean. Exactly
608
00:27:10.018 --> 00:27:11.628
... you only see red Ferraris everywhere.
609
00:27:12.238 --> 00:27:12.257
Yes.
610
00:27:12.268 --> 00:27:12.578
And the-
611
00:27:12.868 --> 00:27:13.768
Thank God you remembered it.
612
00:27:14.648 --> 00:27:17.468
But it's right. I feel like when I start projecting that out and the more I think
613
00:27:17.568 --> 00:27:20.248
about it and visualize it, oh, it just happens to show up.
614
00:27:20.468 --> 00:27:24.188
Yes. And Chris, what's equally powerful is the
615
00:27:24.228 --> 00:27:27.078
reverse can be true. Let me share this
616
00:27:27.908 --> 00:27:31.788
story. It's a study that was done. It's called a Dartmouth Scar Study.
617
00:27:31.808 --> 00:27:35.788
It was done at Dartmouth College in 1980 by a scholar
618
00:27:35.808 --> 00:27:37.228
and researcher called Robert Kleck.
619
00:27:38.228 --> 00:27:40.048
He had a group of volunteers
620
00:27:41.048 --> 00:27:44.148
that he had professional makeup artists put a scar on.
621
00:27:44.888 --> 00:27:48.508
So he had this very realistic-looking scar on their face,
622
00:27:48.908 --> 00:27:51.088
and the idea was that they were going to go out into the world and speak to
623
00:27:51.128 --> 00:27:52.138
complete strangers.
624
00:27:53.228 --> 00:27:57.088
But so he let that happen, and they came back, and he asked them to
625
00:27:57.128 --> 00:28:00.248
report on their experience, and they said, "Well, we felt very judged.
626
00:28:00.868 --> 00:28:04.588
There was awkwardness. They treated us at a distance, and yeah, it
627
00:28:04.668 --> 00:28:07.988
wasn't like the normal interactions we're used to."
628
00:28:09.218 --> 00:28:12.948
And that would've been interesting in and of itself around prejudice or
629
00:28:13.588 --> 00:28:16.348
how people with perhaps disfigurement or scars are perceived.
630
00:28:18.018 --> 00:28:21.888
But here's the incredible fact. Before these volunteers went
631
00:28:22.068 --> 00:28:25.608
out, these artists actually removed the scar,
632
00:28:26.068 --> 00:28:28.928
unbeknownst to the volunteers. They were told that they were just touching up the
633
00:28:28.968 --> 00:28:29.228
scar.
634
00:28:29.308 --> 00:28:30.308
Oh, so they didn't know it was there.
635
00:28:30.828 --> 00:28:31.708
The scar was removed.
636
00:28:31.718 --> 00:28:32.748
It wasn't there. Right. Yeah. Oh, my God.
637
00:28:32.788 --> 00:28:35.628
They went out into the world, thinking they had the scar.
638
00:28:37.757 --> 00:28:41.548
This is an example of this concept called expectation bias, which is that you see
639
00:28:41.568 --> 00:28:45.308
the world not as it is but the way you are.
640
00:28:45.348 --> 00:28:49.158
Which means that our sense of identity is the lens through
641
00:28:49.208 --> 00:28:50.528
which we see the world.
642
00:28:50.818 --> 00:28:50.918
Mm.
643
00:28:51.388 --> 00:28:54.288
Right? In your example, that was a very positive lens.
644
00:28:54.388 --> 00:28:58.108
You were looking for an opportunity to connect with the head of this dance academy
645
00:28:58.228 --> 00:29:01.388
to you have these opportunities to do what you wanted to do.
646
00:29:01.428 --> 00:29:05.148
But when we have a notion of how things are going to play
647
00:29:05.268 --> 00:29:05.438
out,
648
00:29:06.808 --> 00:29:10.378
we presuppose the ending. So a very neutral social
649
00:29:10.408 --> 00:29:13.728
interaction became one that was perceived as being judgmental.
650
00:29:14.368 --> 00:29:15.688
And so that's the power of identity.
651
00:29:15.708 --> 00:29:17.848
It can shape how you're perceiving things-
652
00:29:18.108 --> 00:29:18.348
Mm-hmm
653
00:29:18.428 --> 00:29:19.928
... and the beliefs that you carry.
654
00:29:20.128 --> 00:29:20.408
Mm-hmm.
655
00:29:21.008 --> 00:29:24.718
So imagine what scars, what invisible scars we're carrying around
656
00:29:25.128 --> 00:29:28.768
that if we just paid attention to, because attention is also a superpower,
657
00:29:29.128 --> 00:29:32.788
that we could step into that full identity and go after the goals that we really
658
00:29:32.828 --> 00:29:33.048
want.
659
00:29:33.128 --> 00:29:36.958
Yeah. You're all right. It works just as powerful in the opposite
660
00:29:37.008 --> 00:29:37.758
direction, right?
661
00:29:38.158 --> 00:29:38.158
Yes.
662
00:29:38.168 --> 00:29:41.988
Because as I mentioned, when I heard that conversation with my mom and my teacher,
663
00:29:42.868 --> 00:29:45.608
for the longest time, I was like, "I struggle to read.
664
00:29:46.448 --> 00:29:49.608
I am someone who struggles to read and write."
665
00:29:50.318 --> 00:29:50.318
Yeah.
666
00:29:50.348 --> 00:29:53.348
And that became my identity all the way until I got my first corporate job.
667
00:29:53.428 --> 00:29:53.748
Yeah.
668
00:29:53.828 --> 00:29:56.768
I was really worried. When I came in, and it was like, "Okay, you need to send this
669
00:29:56.828 --> 00:30:00.328
email to your customer that you just pitched," I would
670
00:30:00.428 --> 00:30:03.828
panic and be like, "Oh, I am someone who can't write-
671
00:30:04.188 --> 00:30:04.368
Yeah
672
00:30:04.378 --> 00:30:06.788
... good emails." And I would get my teammates-
673
00:30:07.228 --> 00:30:07.368
Yeah
674
00:30:07.408 --> 00:30:10.628
... to check and help me and because I just identified as-
675
00:30:10.948 --> 00:30:11.188
Yeah
676
00:30:11.268 --> 00:30:14.318
... that. I didn't learn to read until I was 13.
677
00:30:14.688 --> 00:30:14.988
Yeah.
678
00:30:15.008 --> 00:30:15.258
Because
679
00:30:16.228 --> 00:30:19.968
my voice was like, "I am someone who struggles to read," right?
680
00:30:20.108 --> 00:30:23.897
And yet look at how strong your mindset was, that
681
00:30:23.988 --> 00:30:27.656
you set your mind to someone who is going to be A stellar
682
00:30:27.776 --> 00:30:28.356
sportsman.
683
00:30:28.836 --> 00:30:29.536
Yeah.
684
00:30:29.656 --> 00:30:29.756
So
685
00:30:31.196 --> 00:30:34.866
your example is equally powerful in both directions,
686
00:30:34.936 --> 00:30:37.736
where you identified as, "I am someone who cannot read.
687
00:30:38.156 --> 00:30:41.236
I cannot send that email to that customer, but I am someone who can make the
688
00:30:41.256 --> 00:30:41.976
basketball team."
689
00:30:42.006 --> 00:30:42.576
I know. It's crazy.
690
00:30:42.606 --> 00:30:45.156
"I am someone who can be a breakdancer."
691
00:30:45.276 --> 00:30:45.776
Yeah.
692
00:30:45.816 --> 00:30:49.156
And that's the power of identity. Your actions will be
693
00:30:49.196 --> 00:30:52.716
informed by how you see yourself, and you have the power to shape that.
694
00:30:53.016 --> 00:30:56.376
It's not about becoming someone you're not. You remember who you are.
695
00:30:56.456 --> 00:30:58.036
You're already that person. Now,
696
00:30:58.856 --> 00:31:02.756
let's dial up the traits, the values of that person
697
00:31:02.816 --> 00:31:04.516
towards the goal that you have for yourself.
698
00:31:04.616 --> 00:31:08.076
Yeah. Listen, I feel like we need to do a whole series of this, but I know I have
699
00:31:08.156 --> 00:31:11.596
to let you go. Before I let you go, for people that are listening
700
00:31:12.016 --> 00:31:14.856
right now, what would be your parting piece of advice to them?
701
00:31:15.176 --> 00:31:18.536
And where can they reach out to you if they want to work with you, learn more about
702
00:31:18.576 --> 00:31:19.756
your work? Where's the best place?
703
00:31:20.956 --> 00:31:24.416
Thank you. The one thing I would say to people that are listening
704
00:31:24.476 --> 00:31:25.216
today is
705
00:31:26.536 --> 00:31:29.716
you have the ability to be whoever you are.
706
00:31:30.296 --> 00:31:33.996
Remember who you are. You are already the leader you are trying to
707
00:31:34.036 --> 00:31:35.316
become.
708
00:31:36.856 --> 00:31:40.736
Align your identity with the goal that you have and ask yourself, what are
709
00:31:40.776 --> 00:31:43.476
the actions of someone with that identity?
710
00:31:43.576 --> 00:31:44.336
Mm-hmm.
711
00:31:45.536 --> 00:31:49.216
My primary playground is LinkedIn, so follow me on LinkedIn at
712
00:31:49.256 --> 00:31:52.896
Mahrukh Dalal. You can also reach out to me on my website,
713
00:31:52.996 --> 00:31:54.316
mahrukhdalal.com.
714
00:31:54.416 --> 00:31:56.256
Yeah. I'll also shout out your newsletter as well.
715
00:31:56.416 --> 00:31:56.866
Yes. Thank you.
716
00:31:57.176 --> 00:32:01.116
And as always, everyone who's listening, the links will all be in
717
00:32:01.176 --> 00:32:05.136
the description below as well. But so great to finally meet
718
00:32:05.216 --> 00:32:08.966
you, and honestly, I'm so excited about the work that you're
719
00:32:08.976 --> 00:32:12.796
doing because it felt like when we first spoke about this the other day, or
720
00:32:12.836 --> 00:32:16.606
we started talking about it, you've put words to things
721
00:32:16.636 --> 00:32:19.636
that I hear many people talk about, and I've also been thinking about and
722
00:32:19.696 --> 00:32:21.786
struggling with for many years, and you've put words to it.
723
00:32:22.656 --> 00:32:26.336
And now you're obviously building this work out, and I think it's going to be so
724
00:32:26.416 --> 00:32:29.096
impactful. And I think now more than ever in the current climate that we live
725
00:32:29.136 --> 00:32:32.936
within, and with the pace of change and transformation, we're having to
726
00:32:32.996 --> 00:32:36.946
move, learn, adapt, grow. I feel like this is also a huge part of that
727
00:32:37.496 --> 00:32:41.356
as well, as our identities change and we have to learn new things and, "Oh, I'm
728
00:32:41.365 --> 00:32:45.276
not someone who's good with AI." As an example, which I hear all the time
729
00:32:45.356 --> 00:32:46.676
now. It's like, well, none of us are.
730
00:32:46.756 --> 00:32:47.536
It didn't even exist
731
00:32:48.396 --> 00:32:51.156
until a couple... There just wasn't a thing.
732
00:32:51.346 --> 00:32:51.346
Yeah.
733
00:32:51.376 --> 00:32:53.536
We're all starting at the same level
734
00:32:54.796 --> 00:32:55.156
as well.
735
00:32:55.166 --> 00:32:55.166
Absolutely.
736
00:32:55.176 --> 00:32:58.396
So I'm excited to put your work into practice and see what happens.
737
00:32:58.616 --> 00:33:00.416
Thank you so much, Chris. It's been a real pleasure.
738
00:33:00.496 --> 00:33:00.705
Thanks.
Maharukh Dalal, CEO & Founder of The Career Accelerator for Women